0:00You know, I'm actually very excited about the future of databases. Um, I know I know you're going to ask you another question. Just share one thing. I feel like right now the world is going through a massive data center buildout with a lot of AI training and inference data centers being built.
0:18I suspect something that a lot of world does not yet appreciate is that in the future a lot of core infrastructure be it computed storage will be used not just by humans but by agents and that agentic usage of all this infrastructure will drive massive demand and so in addition to the um AI data center buildup for training and inference I think uh a lot of databases have been built for human usage today and we can only you know look got to
0:47query so much data but with Agente usage I think the demand for core infrastructure for compute will will continue to skyrocket so actually very bullish on this category at home yeah it's a it's an amazing space I mean we feel very fortunate to be in the thick of it and actually we we had a partner day yesterday where we invited a lot of people who work with builders or developers and basically everyone saying yeah we're we're running out of compute we need like the amount of builders pouring into the world is just going crazy right now.
1:17So, actually, I'm going to start because you have one of the most impressive backgrounds that and I couldn't memorize it all. So, I'm just going to I know you're very humble. I'm going to read out for anyone who doesn't know, you're the founder of uh deep learning AI.
1:31You're a general partner of an AI fund, managing partner of AI Aspire, chairman and co-founder of Corsera, professor at Stanford University. Previously you were the founding lead of Google Brain VP and chief scientist at BYU director formerly director of the Stanford AI lab and you are part of the time 100 AI list for the most influential AI persons in the
1:59world. So, first of all, that's crazy.
2:02That's [applause] right. What a life actually. How do you how do you have the energy to kind of keep reinventing yourself and keep keep doing or do all these things?
2:17Yeah, I I feel like the answer I have is the it's kind of the obvious one is which is I've been really so blessed to work with so many great people consistently across so many organizations. Um I feel like uh but for the people I get to work with I would hardly manage the accomplish anything myself. So I've just been really blessed.
2:37That's cool. That's cool. Okay. So I was going to talk about skills map. I was going to try to explain it but you are first and foremost a teacher. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about skills map. Uh what you're doing at the moment and then we can dive deep.
2:55Yeah. I think the most exciting profession to be that's very rapidly at this moment in time is um AI engineering and by [clears throat] that I don't mean people that'll take on an AI engineing job title but rather people in all sorts of job roles including software engineering front end back end devops mobile um that will benefit from here having AI engineing skills. So my team at D1 AI did a lot of work over several months to try to map out what are the
3:24skills that are needed to do AI engineering well. Um and so we wound up categorizing. So we looked at over 10,000 job uh descriptions, job postings, did dozens of structured interviews uh had ran a bunch of own surveys and uh synthesized views talking to you know partners as well. And we w up figuring out that there are four key skills needed to do AI engineering well.
3:48One is um the ability to build and deploy AI applications. And the difference with AI non-AI applications is they're uncertained. Um and so how do you manage that? The second is software engineing fundamentals. It turns out that even with AI writing a lot of code for us, people that understand software engineing fundamentals to understand what's a rewrite ratio, what's a transaction um you know people can steer coding agents much better that way.
4:14Third is the ability to use coding agents. And then lastly is the ability to is a skill of shaping the build because developers are no longer playing a role where someone tells them what to do and they just implement it but instead are participating in deciding what to build and also influencing the process by which something is built. So what I'm seeing in the job market today is developers uh either people with a AI engine aging title or people with other
4:43title that's gained some AI engineing skills are in great demand and we just can't find enough people with these skills. So deep learni is excited to um work upon this to help more people become skilled at AI engineering.
5:01and the skills map itself. Um actually first of all starting with skills why you focus on skills in particular I think you have uh like a view on skills that they're one of the more important parts. Do you think that they're going to be critical as we go along or can the agents just become so good that we don't need to focus so much on providing our own custom skills? How do you see this part evolving here?
5:27Yeah. So you know I think about um there's some things we do today that I hope an agent will take over. Uh for me for example you may remember threeish years ago there's a lot of hype about the prom engineering job and how much money someone could learn make by being a prom engineer. And I think at that time it was already clear to to actually give Chris Manning credit for saying this very clearly even back then which was um this idea that we need humans of
5:56arcane incantations to prompt an to do something that's going to go away because an was going to learn how to make those same arcane incantations. And so even today I see some things that um like uh you know how do you manage a swarm of agents? some things humans will be needed to do. Some things is more of a one-sizefits all that I think AI agents will to manage other AI agents better and better in the coming years.
6:23And one of the key things that distinguishes whether AI will take this over or not is whether or not humans have a fundamental context advantage. It turns out when all of us are building applications, we know a ton of stuff that AI agents do not know. You may remember a conversation with a customer, you know, where you said something and there was a funny expression on their face. Or you may remember something that you learned, you know, five years ago reading some market report and saying
6:51people want this and not that. So I find that humans have a bewildering vast range of context and remarkably good at pulling out this context and make key decisions. And so for that set of decisions where humans have a fundamental context advantage until someday where I don't know like slap a camera on us and monitor the facial expressions of everyone we talk to and have I that that's a very difficult part. So I think there's a large task where humans with a fundamental context
7:19advantage that we want humans to do for a long time. Um and then giving people the skills to do that valuable work to complement the wonderful work that coding agent is doing. That seems to be the path that will be on for a long time to come. And this is why with I think you've probably seen with coding agents being the wonderful things they are um the number of job postings the software engineering is up because as software engineers and AI engineers become more productive we want a lot more of them
7:47and businesses I know even my teams we just can't seem to find enough skilled AI engineers and I think this will continue.
7:54Yeah. So let's dig into that. Let's imagine two developers who are who are two strong developers, but one gets better results than the other. What would the stronger developer be doing that the weak one isn't doing today?
8:10You know, this is a great question. And when we're mapping out the AI engineing skills map, um that was one of the questions we repeatedly asked ourselves, which is we actually interviewed a lot of people. And one of the standard questions we asked them was, think of a great developer, think of a less good developer. what is it you know that a really great developer does compared to the less good ones and um a lot of the answers were what wound up we wound up distilling into the AI engineing skills map um and it's actually more than one
8:39thing it's actually a lot of very different things but just to give another example um the first of four key skills we highlighted was the ability to build and deploy AI applications and it turns out that the key differentiator for AI applications compared to tradition traditional software applications is they are uncertain right whether you prompt an LM or train a supervised learning algorithm you don't know in advance what outcome you get and
9:06so AI developers have come up with or are familiar with a set of techniques to monitor the performance of these systems often is the skull way um and to drive a discipline error analysis and eval loop to make progress in a systematic way and so um it was by asking questions like that and reflecting on our own experiences that we then tried to suspend map out the not one or two but frankly the very large number of gaps between skilled developers and you know
9:34novice level developers and we tried to distill that into what we call the AI engine skills map to then try to um work systematically the whole people go from your less skilled expert level at all of these really valuable skills is the skills map itself for for anyone to use mostly for software engineers people with background around how how should people think about the skones map itself.
9:58Yeah. So we published um this deep we published a weekly newsletter called the batch. So for five weeks in a row I wrote about nothing but the AI engine a schools map. Um and actually know other companies uh that are now looking to structure curricula around our AI engine schools map which is actually pretty cool. Um but I feel like for individuals is a way to understand what being excellent which many of you already are but where you where you're already
10:28excellent in other places where you want to become more excellent and then um one thing deep learning is working hard on is to then create those paths for people to become skilled at AI engine. uh but I think the educational space both you know deep learn AI and and other companies still have work to do to help people develop clearer paths to become skilled broadly at all of these AI engine aging goals I I'm curious what are you seeing in terms
10:56of people who are pouring in is it experienced developers basically there probably is some sort of curve where there's these experienced developers who don't want to let go I mean myself I loved the getting in the zone of uh of coding and it became a long time. It took me a long time before I was like, "Okay, now I just let the agent do it."
11:17Are you seeing this shift slowly happen where people are like, "Okay, I'm giving up and uh I'm shifting all of it to to skills first."
11:26Yeah, it's interesting actually, you know. Um I I don't know. It's funny. I actually don't miss coding by hand.
11:33[laughter] Yeah. Yeah.
11:38[applause] But actually, do you do you miss the I don't know. Do you get like in the zone?
11:45You know, when you just kind of lock in a problem, you had to go to Stack Overflow and copy and paste 50,000 things. Maybe you didn't. I did.
11:52Uh and then um you know, you spend 3 hours on a problem and finally it clicks. I don't kind of get that vibe, I guess, anymore. But yeah, I also Yeah.
12:02Yeah. I think I bet I bet you I bet you had this problem too. Remember before AI, we used to have a list of projects wanted to work on but couldn't finish.
12:11Now my list, I'm going to guess yours too, has gotten way longer now that AI has supposedly made us more productive.
12:18So I find that for myself um there's so many projects doesn't work on and don't have time to work on and and even as our capabilities grew, certainly my personal ambitions grew maybe even faster than our capabilities. And so um yeah, it's a different type of vibe, right? I think starting a coding agent before you go to bed to see what it comes up with the next morning is a different way of getting into the zone, I guess, than you know, debugging some weird JavaScript
12:45syntax. But I I I have to admit I I seem to like the new vibe more than the old one.
12:51Yeah. [laughter] Yeah, we're definitely getting more down. That's for sure. Um actually, like I'm curious how you design a curriculum in such a rapidly changing market. Do you foresee that you're going to have to change this curriculum every single year, every month? How are you iterating on it?
13:12You know, it's interesting. I I I feel like the hype is that AI advances so fast. Everything changes every 3 months. Um the air skills map. The one piece that does change the fastest is um coding agents. Uh and the way we code now is very different than three months ago, very different than six months ago.
13:30So the use of coding agents is changing very rapidly. But when I look at the other parts of uh the skills that I find really valuable, the way we build and deploy AI applications, there a lot of fundamental knowledge about how to steer these systems, how to deploy them, how to monitor them, how to update them.
13:46That is actually changing much slower than the PR hype says. One of the funny thing um at least before Astra, I think Astra may have changed. I'm not sure. It turns out most AI systems, they're not very good data scientists. They're not very good AI engineers. you kind of ask it what should I do in the project and for the most part and frankly data science right um I now don't do my data science work by hand you know no more coding up pandas data frames whatever I
14:16still use on the back end but I now use AI agents to do a lot of my data science work for me and then frankly it just makes really weird decisions it comes to really weird conclusions um I I hope that frontier models will get better but somehow there's a lot of understanding the fundamental to make tradeoffs and I see that um a lot of engineering is making trade-offs right uh uh you know I know cost latency uh and then uh speed
14:43reliability uh and the challenge is until you understand the fundamentals you often don't even know what trade-offs exist to be made which is why when someone vibe codes without understanding very often the coding agent will make a bunch of trade-offs that you didn't even know it made a trade off and just bites you later. Um, so I find that people that are good engineers to understand the fundamentals in many many parts of the skills needed
15:12just make much better decisions. But I'm also encouraged at what's now possible to do you know when you write code without understanding but I think really good engineers just do such vastly better work than you know inexperienced engineers.
15:27Yeah. And actually on that one like as part of the skills map you talk about shaping the build. I found this kind of an interesting concept. Maybe you can explain what what you mean by shaping the build.
15:38Yeah. So um as building has become easier the bottleneck is less building but deciding what to build. And so um previously there were used to be a lot of let's say front-end engineers but now front-end engineers with AI assistance can also do a lot more back end that was possible. Um, I'm personally much stronger on back end than front end. Uh, but [clears throat] now, you know, frankly, I'm a maybe like a bad front-end developer with AI systems, but
16:07so a lot of developers have gone from a more narrow role to being a full stack developer. But then even beyond that um it turns out that if a developer builds something and needs to wait for a product manager to get customer feedback and then you know steer what's built next that's much slower than the developer themselves has a little bit of product instinct a little bit of product gut or can talk to a couple customers or users and get feedback and keep driving the process forward. So in development
16:36what I'm seeing is a lot of people um are expanding their roles from just implementation to deciding what to build. Um and it does not mean engineers should become product managers. But it does mean that engineers that can make some product decisions or more architecture decisions are much more productive than engineers that played the more narrow cider role from a few years ago. Um and so we call this
17:04shaping the bill where um engineers that can influence product decisions have some product guts also hope to think through the build process like is this a good time to build an MVP or is it a good time to invest in building really robust architecture and thinking about scale or is this a good time to go out to customers to get feedback or is this a good time to do some research to better understand what back-end technology stack you use so developers can steer the building process end
17:32contributing much more to the overall um comfier project.
17:36How much then should they spend is time kind of designing the system? One of my favorite skills, I don't know if you know this like grill with docs creates these like architectural decisions and it spends an hour grilling you exactly what you want to build. It's like how much time do you think people should be focused on upfront what they want to build, how they want to build it versus like just go build your MVP and then fix it later on iterating.
18:02Yeah, I think yeah question the the challenge answering that question is that the answer is stage dependent and it depends a lot on you know what Jeff Bezos calls oneway door versus two-way doors. Um but directionally in the early stages of a project you know frankly whatever idea you have right type it into coding agent build it see what you get or so let's can do it in a safe way and don't leak sensitive data or you know just don't so there protection from bad outcomes but I find that a lot of
18:32projects one of the challenges about air engineering is the right decision is very stage dependent I find that for early stage projects solless you can do it in a responsible safe away. Build a quick and dirty prototype, see what happens, throw it away, build in that quick and dirty product, see what happens, and drive rapid learnings. And then there's also a time and place the thinking carefully about architecture, figure out what's the rewrite ratio, what the customer requirements, what is sensitive data, thinking through your
19:00security infrastructure, and then doing that. So one thing I've seen is um I've known a lot of engineers that really good at the zero to one startup phase.
19:10Um I've also known a lot of good engineers good at the mature systematic phase but um sometimes depending on the stage of project you're on the skill and the speed and the how to think about velocity versus protecting from downside risk shifts. Um, and even the use of coding agents, you see a lot of people talk about how, oh, you should always plan it out, write a long spec, and there is a place for that. And then sometimes there's a place if you know
19:38you're going to go to bed in 20 minutes, just bang out some stuff, have a coding agent work for a few hours and see what you get the next morning. And and I think that stage dependent answer has been very tricky for people to learn.
19:51Okay, I need to switch gears and I need to ask you a question because I was uh chatting to Swix yesterday from Legend Space. I don't know if you know him, but he's here covering uh this week and he said something spicy. I might misquote him, but he said something like, "Oh, skunks are dead or the way that we're changing uh the way that we have to learn has to completely change." I'm very I'm sure you get this question a lot. I'm curious on your take on like how will learning change put us forward
20:2010 years how are we learning surely does it look the same as what we're doing now in schools completely different so it will change so two observations so first um I'm going to say something obvious but maybe sound controversial but chat bots are terrible for learning right um I love elements use them a lot clearly pro AI at the same time on university campuses and in uh you know K12 we know
20:49that students that use OM do better on homeworks but worse than final exam and um educators have known this intuitively students have known this intuitively but the rigorous studies are now increasingly coming out that show that cognitive offloading into an LM meaning if a student does an LM think for you you get more work done but you learn less um and I think even though the rigorous studies on this are coming out in K12 and in higher education
21:18university in full educational context.
21:21I think people still underestimate the degree to which this is happening among working adults. Um I find that you know I love my coding agents helps you do a ton of work but the reduced thinking I have to do. I think there are certain things that and then to be clear there are ways to use that do improve learning. Um just like I think there are ways to use Tik Tok that's great for learning but the vast majority of ways that the vast majority of people use social media does not result in learning
21:50and the vast majority of ways the vast majority of people use OM does not result in learning. So um now the flip side of this though is I think we can do better. So uh the teams I work with including Corsera, Udemy, DLAI, Learn Vector are working hard to create new learning experiences that are not focused on getting stuff done but rather on developing rather on focusing on accelerating human development. Um here in Silicon Valley we're really excited
22:20about our frontier AI labs and accelerating AI development and that's great. I'm very much in favor of that.
22:25in uh learn vector which was a recently announced company funded by with Corsair as initial investor. I'm actually really excited about not accelerating not just accelerating AI development but accelerating human development and the way that um we're operating is building learn vector into a frontier AI it's a frontier human development lab and as one example I feel fortunate that
22:54Corsera participated in changing education 15 years or so ago but today um looking back on that experience which still works. It feels very much one to many where we create one course and everyone kind of takes the same or very similar course and it works. Nothing's wrong with that. But the technology now exists for us to create much more onetoone experiences um and it will be much better. So Lunveeta hasn't yet announced exactly what products we have
23:23but uh I'm actually very optimistic from the internal prototypes we have and we will have more to share in months.
23:30That's super exciting.
23:32Okay, I want to leave the crowd with something tangible. So, let's say you could design a way that everyone here could uh spend the next four weeks upskilling to become the best uh AI developers, how should they spend their time for the next four weeks? Where should they go? What should they learn?
23:53Um what tools should they adopt?
23:55Anything that comes to mind?
23:57I know. So, you know, in the case of AI engineering, um, Deep Blend's focus is to help developers become skilled at AI engineering or if you're already skilled, to become even more skilled.
24:10Um, working hard on even improving what deep learners, but I actually find myself taking a lot of deep learn courses myself to learn what are the frontier tools kind of what's the latest in the voice stack or in generative UI or, you know, building local memory for agents. So I find that um maybe as an insider I see a lot of ways I wish deep learning worked even better. Um but I think that uh my own learning actually a lot of it has been
24:37has been with deep learn I hope I hope you all will find that helpful cool and keep building. I think yeah I think I think all of you are builders right I I find myself um I still find myself waking up in the middle of the night too often to check on the coding agents up to do you fire off on your phone as you wake up in the middle of the night yeah I I I don't know I I think coding on the phone has been so wonderful but also maybe I don't know yeah do you use do you text or do you use
25:05voice to chat to your chat to your coding agents I use text a lot more than voice to coding um you know with the usual Mac I think.
25:15Yeah. Okay. Yeah. [laughter] Okay, that's cool. There's a bit of inside baseball. I'm very curious about your setup actually. Okay. First of all, I know that you had a very uh uh strict uh schedule and so we're incredibly grateful that we could fit you in and you could fit us into your timing. So, thank you so much for coming coming to Select. It's really a pleasure and an honor to have you.
25:39Thank you so much. and just say, you know, of all the credentials you r offer me just now, the thing that was going through my mind, my one credential you didn't mention was, um, I'm also a proud father of two children. So So, so [applause] she and so and so and so the reason I need to dash is because I actually need to go pick them up from school, which is that's super important. Okay, we'll let you go then.
26:04So, thank you so much, Har.
26:07Thank you. Thank you.