A Conversation with Reed Hastings on AI, Education, and the Future of Learning
For our 500th podcast episode (!!!!!), we got to sit down with someone who needs no introduction: Reed Hastings, the co-founder of Netflix and its CEO for 25 years. Long before streaming, though, he was a Peace Corps math teacher, and he has spent about three decades working on education, from charter schools to, more recently, AI tutoring. We talked about why he gave up on fixing school districts, what AI tutors could do for classrooms in Rwanda and the US, how teachers’ roles might change, and why he thinks assessment should feel like a conversation.
From Peace Corps Math Teacher to Education Philanthropist
Ben Kornell: Many don’t know your history and social impact and your origin story as a Peace Corps volunteer and as somebody who’s really cared about education over the last several decades. Can you tell us a little bit about where that comes from, and your journey on the social impact side?
Reed Hastings: Yeah. I was a math tutor in college, then a math teacher in the Peace Corps, teaching tenth grade math in a rural school. Came back and got into Silicon Valley and AI and then eventually Netflix. And as I had resources to give back, it was natural for me to focus some on education. And I quickly figured out that it’s really a structural issue we have in US public education, to do with school boards and the way we’re set up. And that the best path forward was to have more nonprofit schools like charter schools, and so I’ve been working for about thirty years now on expanding charter schools. And then most recently, a focus on AI to help all schools, including charters.
Focusing on Charter Schools
Alex Sarlin: Tell us about the focus on charter schools, how you came to that decision that nonprofit charter schools were one of the best means by which to evolve and transform education, and what that’s looked like over the last couple of decades.
Reed Hastings: Yeah, I mean, I started with a more obvious solution, which is let’s fix the school districts that we have. So I spent five or ten years with different districts in California, Oakland, and LA, and, you know, some success. But what was shocking was the great programs that got put in and started helping, then the superintendent eventually got let go, and the new superintendent, new school board basically ripped out everything that the prior guy did. And that’s when it clicked for me as, oh, that’s what’s been happening, which is school board members run on change, like everybody runs on change in politics. Eventually, there’s four of seven new members, and then they change the superintendent. And so the average tenure for a superintendent is three years in our large districts, and that’s been true over fifty years.
So if you have three years to try to really restructure and improve a school district with ten thousand employees, it’s kind of hopeless. And so what superintendents do is they slam in some program right in the beginning, and then they hope to get some good results so they can get a next job, and then the new person comes in and takes out that program. And so it’s amazing that school districts work as well as they do given the turnover. And we’re basically the only country on Earth that has these local school boards and school districts. It’s not necessarily the most efficient way to run. And again, the advantage of nonprofits is that when they have a good leader, that person can be in place for five or ten or fifteen years. And then they try to select a new leader that’s the same direction but a little bit better, okay? As opposed to big radical change. And so that allows quality of the teaching to rise and rise, and we’ve certainly seen that in Success Academies with Eva Moskowitz and in KIPP with Shavar Jeffries. And so, just many examples.
AI Tutoring, and What the Modern Bloom Study Will Test
Ben Kornell: One of the big areas that you’ve invested in recently is around AI and tutoring. And that dovetails with charters and new models of school. Of course, we hear about Alpha School all the time, and Joe and his team have been on our podcast before. You’ve made bets with ELO. You’re also working on a project around Bloom’s and whether the Two Sigma work can be replicated. Why are you all in on AI tutoring, and where do you think that’s headed?
Reed Hastings: Well, I would say tutoring is kind of where I started, you know, as a math tutor before I became a math teacher, and one-on-one instruction and learning at your own pace really is a better way. And of course, Bloom’s study was 1984, and if you go back and read the paper, it’s a little thin in terms of its approach.
Ben Kornell: It elicited a lot of controversy recently, yeah.
Reed Hastings: So one of the things that I funded is Ben Summers to run an amazing kind of modern Bloom, where he has hired individual tutors for students. And so all the time that you would take math or ELA, you get individualized tutoring for a randomized subset of kids for the whole school year. And then we’ll see at the end of the school year how much more did the kids learn. Now, that’s with a human individualized tutor, okay? And an experienced and high-quality human. And it’s not economic; it’s quite expensive per student. But then the hope is that that will establish that if we can do individual tutoring at human-level quality, we’ll really see a tremendous uplift in learning and student satisfaction. So then the AI has to match the human. How soon that happens could be a year from now, could be three, but AI is getting better and better, and it’s not gonna be that long until it’s as good as a human tutor.
AI Tutors Supporting Classrooms in Rwanda and East Africa
Alex Sarlin: How do you get an AI to be able to scale the quality of human tutoring, and what is the value of relational intelligence? You know, you mentioned that the US system is unique in the world. It really is, with all of this local control, all these school boards, which creates some tension and complexity, but it’s also a giant system that has some really bright spots. You’ve looked all around the world, and I know you’ve done some really interesting work in Africa, in Rwanda and other places, to start to figure out how might we take this technological moment and help the world leapfrog and get to some really successful educational outcomes, and AI might play a part of that story.
Reed Hastings: So the governance work, which is school boards, charters, it’s very US-specific. Charters are probably the best way from where we stand today to evolve forward in the United States. If you look around the world, mostly these are national systems that run with a lot of coherence and no local school boards, but they’re significantly underfunded. So US schools, you know, average of fifteen thousand dollars per kid per year, and in Rwanda it’s a hundred dollars per kid per year. Kenya is the high-water mark at, like, three hundred bucks per kid per year. So it’s a very different challenge. And in East Africa, population is still growing substantially, and the schools have become very overcrowded, and they can’t afford to hire many more teachers. So we’re talking class sizes of seventy. And there we’re exploring, in a bunch of schools, AI tutors on an inexpensive tablet. And if you set it up as one tablet per child, then how much more learning and attention can you get? And there you’re competing against a seventy-person classroom that’s underfunded. There’s not really textbooks. You have chalk on the whiteboard. So it’s a pretty low bar that you’re competing against. So AI will first be an amazing relative teacher in that kind of distressed situation, and then it may take a few more years before it’s as good in the US, competing against very good teachers.
What Will It Take for AI Tutoring to Keep Students Motivated?
Ben Kornell: So, this is one reason why we at Edtech Insiders believe the AI leap forward is most likely to come from the developing world, because of that competition dynamic. But there is this real challenge with AI tutoring of cognitive offloading and also of motivational decline. Our colleague Lawrence Holt wrote about the 5% problem, where kids that are really engaged do get a lot out of products, especially in a country like Rwanda, where there’s a history of lack of education, inequity, a seventy-to-one classroom ratio. How are you thinking about the motivational components, and what’s giving you the most encouragement or excitement?
Reed Hastings: Well, the challenge for Edtech is if you just take a chat interface and give it to the kids, that becomes ChatGPT. So the obvious thing to do is not very good for learning. So you really wanna build… Right now, I would say state of the art is building apps that are the front end. Within two or three years, just as we three are having a conversation, there’ll be an AI avatar on this podcast with a humanoid form on the screen, and it’s just a normal conversation, but with an extremely intelligent AI.
The tutoring won’t come from specific intelligences. It’ll come from the general intelligence of AI being that much better. So again, AI is roughly getting twice as good every year. You know, three years ago, ChatGPT could barely do elementary math, and now it’s solving, proving the Navier-Stokes problem, which is like a top-ten problem in mathematics. So that’s a stunning amount of positive change in three years. So imagine three years from now. It’s just going to be amazing. Now we have to resource it. It takes a lot of computation, so that’ll be a challenge too. But I think we’ll be able to see, at least on screen, kind of teacher avatars, humanoid-like, within the next three years. And then over ten years, of course, the robots are coming. So then we’ll have a different dynamic. Let’s focus on the near term.
Will Humanoid AI Tutors Motivate Students or Shut Them Down?
Ben Kornell: But on the motivation side, do you think anthropomorphizing AI is the key for engagement? Because one scenario is, like, I as a student actually shut down because humanoid AI is so much smarter, like, why not let them have the conversation?
Reed Hastings: Well, think of it as, it’ll be as good as or better than human tutoring. So humans get pretty good at motivating seven-year-olds, ten-year-olds, but some humans are not very good at it. So you can take tutoring transcripts and try to figure out the best practices. But again, if it’s a natural human child-adult interaction, I think they’re gonna be able to be pretty motivating, and sometimes they’ll let the kid play and just do a game. Other times they’re like, “I believe in you. You can solve this problem,” and all the things that we as parents do, and then we say, “Oh, we’re gonna be so much better at it when we’re grandparents,” because we parents learn a lot along the way. So I think in principle, AI should be able to deliver that kind of quality, that kind of attentiveness to the individual emotional factors.
Can Education Compete With Entertainment for Students’ Attention?
Alex Sarlin: One aspect of Edtech that we’ve always found very fascinating, and I think you’re uniquely positioned to talk to it, is that as the technology has gotten better and better for educational purposes and educational apps, it’s also gotten better and been able to support all different kinds of apps, including entertainment and gaming and social media. And I think that has led to a situation where students have a lot of fractured attention but also have incredible opportunities to learn. I’m curious, as somebody who spans the education and entertainment worlds so thoroughly, as AI improves, you see these humanoid tutors and amazing AI learning tools, but also we’re gonna see these amazing AI games and amazing AI shows. How can education compete with entertainment to keep students motivated, and is there a chance for them to come together?
Reed Hastings: They may come together in ways and influence each other, but I think the main structure of schooling, which is sort of eight to three, five days a week, will be pretty strong and stable. Probably can learn some from homeschooling out of that. But the thing is, we’ll start getting used to having AI as an interface where we ask, as adults, psychological questions, medical questions, financial advice. We’re going to find the insights that AI has more and more compelling. And I think for students, it essentially will be conversational learning, okay? Just think how much better it is, back and forth like this conversation. And so people think of AI in the classroom as, again, on a screen, with a keyboard or touch, but it really just should be the kids talking and the AI having a conversation with them. And of course, you need to be careful on the AI side to make sure it’s appropriate, but that’s what the design case is. But then school is really a conversation, and it’s augmented with some visuals where that’s helpful, okay? But that’s not all the time. So I think it’ll be much more interactive and conversational than it is like a video game on a screen.
What Is the Teacher’s Role in an AI-Enabled School?
Ben Kornell: I am curious what you view the role of the teacher is in the future. And as you’ve looked at US education and international education, is that role of the teacher different in the future or fundamentally the same? What does that look like?
Reed Hastings: Well, I think it’s largely the same in the aspect of emotional oversight and caregiving and guardianship, and so those aspects will be the same. I think what’s different is, many teachers are information conveyance, and they stand up in front of the whiteboard and explain to a class of thirty. And that mass instruction modality we as students spend a lot of time in, all through college. Then we go into the workplace, and we never are in that modality again, where you’re in a classroom. So it’s a very artificial environment. All of the work world is apprenticeship, but we couldn’t afford that in the past. But I think AI will allow us to make K-12 much more apprenticeship-feeling, where you’re doing more and more tasks encouraged and guided by the AI. And the teachers are trying to provide a nurturing environment for the kids to come in. I think we’ll stay in classrooms. Parents want the custodial function of schools, so there’ll still be school buildings. You’ll still drop your kid off at eight o’clock and pick them up at three or four, and there’ll still be playtime and recess and all of those things, but a lot of the learning time will be individualized.
Always-On, Voice-First Learning: What Device Would Kids Use?
Alex Sarlin: I love your idea of education being conversational and voice being sort of a primary medium in which we learn and converse and talk, and I’m curious how you envision that type of learning. If we have a school day and then we have informal learning time, time that students are working outside of a structured environment, it feels like one of the really exciting aspects of conversational AI is that it can span any time. The same student might be in class and getting a little bit of support from an AI, or then at home or on a weekend or on a vacation, looking at a flower and saying, “Hey, what is that? It reminds me of something in class.” I’m curious if you feel like we’re heading towards a future of always-on learning with that conversational aspect being at the core.
Reed Hastings: Well, the wrinkle in that, that I’m not sure how it would work out, is what’s the device. So, do I see every seven-year-old having a phone and asking the flower a question? I’m not sure. The problem is we build these devices for the market of adults, where they’re extremely flexible and open, which is inappropriate for a kid. And in a classroom environment, we can control that. But again, it may be that there’s basically a kid version of a phone that only runs a few apps and is much safer. And it may not even be a phone at that point; it may be a pendant. But we would need some scaffolding so that all of the flexibility that an adult has to ask provocative and inappropriate questions is guided in a different way for kids.
Investing in Governance and Nonprofit Models Instead of For-Profit Ones
Ben Kornell: I find it very curious that as an entrepreneur, you built Netflix, which is B2C, very for-profit, very technology-forward, and yet as a philanthropist, so nonprofit, you’ve focused your education work on philanthropic models with a focus on governance of all things, which, by the way, warms our hearts here at Edtech Insiders. But often we see people in the for-profit landscape try to translate their success in those models into education. And so for that reason, most of them think B2C, for-profit, nonlinear scale, and yet you’ve been systematically investing in governance, schools, and models that more slowly scale. Is that because you don’t believe that the other model works? Is it because you think that a profit motive ruins the outcome? How do you rationalize that?
Reed Hastings: Well, see, my first business, Pure Software, was B2B, selling high-end software products to businesses, and then Netflix is, of course, B2C and entertainment, so quite different. So I think even in the business context, I feel pretty flexible about different models. And then I bought DreamBox Learning in about 2011, 2012, and was chair of that board for a decade, trying to figure out B2C. Although that was mostly for classrooms, so that was B2B, but using tech. So I feel like I’ve just looked at different tools for different things and tried to get to the root causes of what the struggles are. I’ve avoided the most simplistic things like, let’s just give teachers bonuses, or let’s just make it all like a business, which isn’t really how public goods are distributed. It’s not how the military’s run. So there are lots of aspects of the school system which are very positive and have evolved along with our society and are important. So I guess to answer your question, I’ve always been a kind of systems thinker. Haven’t always gotten that right, I’m sure, but it’s trying to get at the root issues and where the leverage is for kids to learn more.
What Is Philanthropy’s Role in Education?
Ben Kornell: And with philanthropy as a financial leverage point, how have you thought about philanthropy and its role in the space? Does it create distortions? Does it create acceleration? How have you thought about that as capital? And I think just the context here is there’s a bunch of new thinking about new philanthropy coming online, and this is aligned to the Anthropic IPO and the OpenAI IPO. And there’s real concern in the education space around the new philanthropy passing over education because it’s so challenging to change. So I’m very curious about your view of the role of philanthropy and the future of philanthropy in our space.
Reed Hastings: Well, US spending’s about six hundred billion, globally about two trillion, and philanthropy’s around a billion. So I think it’s incredibly leveraged, and I don’t share the concern that suddenly philanthropy’s gonna call all the shots and mess it up or something like that. It’s really quite a small fraction. But what we want to do, anyone who wants to help the school systems improve, brings philanthropy as part of the mitigation of the cost to try new approaches. So I think that part of it’s very important.
Will the Tech-Lash Keep AI Out of US Schools?
Alex Sarlin: We talk a lot, especially in the last six months or so, about this concept of the tech lash. And in educational settings, we’re starting to see school districts get a little antsy about the role of technology. And as they’re creating cell phone bans or social media restrictions or screen time bans, they’re also starting to restrict educational technology, and that is, obviously, a little bit of a concern for those of us in Edtech. I’m curious, you’re somebody who spans both technological and very human-led solutions to educational problems, and you look around the world. And around the world, many countries are not going through that tech lash. They’re actually really embracing technology as an accelerator. You mentioned that. I’m curious how you see this moment playing out. Will the US go through a backlash against technology while the rest of the world accelerates, or is this a passing fad? How do you see the tech lash moving forward?
Reed Hastings: Well, I think workers generally don’t want to be replaced, and that’s understandable. And so if employee groups can use the social media fears to block AI from schools, then they feel like their jobs are more stable, and that’s pretty motivating. So it’s natural for people to fight things that might someday evolve to replace them as early as possible. Fortunately, there’s the homeschool market, there’s the private school market, there’s the charter schools. So there are lots of places to use AI, but I do think employee groups in school districts are going to be pretty successful at using the fear of social networking and kind of blending that all together to block screen-based education, at least until it’s really high quality. It’ll get harder to block when it’s not experimental and a theory, but when it really produces two-sigma outcomes on a consistent basis. So that’s gonna be a big deal.
What Khan Academy’s Experience Teaches About Building on Fast-Improving AI
Ben Kornell: I am curious, the work that Khan Academy has done has been pretty revolutionary, and also Sal has taken a lot of hits because there’ve been times where the tech wasn’t ready for the moment, or the implementation challenges that we all know in education became tough to overcome. What have you learned? What are some of your key takeaways over the last year as you’ve really gone into AI and education and its potential?
Reed Hastings: Well, I would say the hard thing is that AI’s getting so much better. So you try to build a good student experience around AI from two years ago, and by the time you’ve built that product, say a year later, the AI’s gotten way better. So it’s just, how do you architect a software application so that as AI leaps forward, the benefits are passed through to your students, and you don’t have to throw out your application and start over? So a lot of the trade-offs we make these days are token usage, model size, various things that will be very different trade-offs a year from now, two years from now, three years from now.
Hyper-Personalized Content, Conversation That Locks in Learning, and Conversational Assessment
Alex Sarlin: One interesting idea that some of the startup founders we’ve talked to over the last couple of years have come up with, in response to the speed at which AI is accelerating, is this idea of creating hyper-personalized content in lots of different formats for students. So if they’re learning the Russian Revolution, they can watch a series on the Russian Revolution that happens to touch all the standards, or they can play a game on it, or they can do some really interesting collaborative activity that is created for them in the moment. And as somebody who has thought very hard for a long time about personalization, about optimizing through data usage, do you foresee that happening, or does that feel like a pipe dream?
Reed Hastings: We are trying to lay down neural tracks in the students’ minds so that they can then integrate not only the facts of the Russian Revolution, but where it sits in historical context, and what the connections are with other things. What were the hopes and dreams? What were the four hundred years of the Tsars? This kind of thing. So if some visual assets help in that, let’s say a little movie about it, that’s fine. To the degree that it just becomes entertainment, then that’s fine as entertainment, but it doesn’t really integrate. Occasionally a movie, I don’t know, like Gandhi, is two and a half hours long, but you really get a feel for the movement, what he represented, his life. So I think that’s probably well worth students watching. I’m not opposed to all that. But then afterwards you would wanna have a discussion with the student. Say in the Gandhi case: what were the tenets of nonviolence? Why had the other attempts to bring about Indian independence not succeeded? How important was it that he lived in poverty with the people, versus Nehru in the suits and the establishment? You could have an interesting conversation. But it’s the conversation after the fact that locks it in. And I think in general, let’s talk about testing for a second, assessment. That should all be conversational. Right? Whether it’s to go to college or the summative at the end of seventh grade, it should be a conversation like you and I are having, with an AI, and then it will really understand how much of the seventh-grade curriculum, or other curriculum, you’re really conversant in.
How Should We Define and Assess Success in an AI Future?
Ben Kornell: Yeah. Well, I am thinking also about just the costs here, which have fundamentally changed. And your example of Gandhi the movie, we actually talked to two Columbia University professors who started up a company where they would do social-emotional learning with Netflix, but the challenge they had was that for each one they had to construct, it just cost so much. And now you’ve had this bottoming out of cost. And then on the assessment side, we’ve been majorly oriented around reading and math-based scores, which we’ve seen PISA just fall off a cliff. But now we can also assess so much. So when you’re thinking about what success looks like for your innovation school in Rwanda or for the charter schools that you support, how do you think we should be assessing skills that are relevant in an AI future? What does success look like?
Reed Hastings: Well, I think we’re gonna take up the expectations a lot, and the achievement. I think that we’ll show with, say, the modern Bloom, that individualized tutoring by a human, and by that I mean the four hours a week you got of math instruction is individualized instead of sitting in a classroom, does generate two sigmas, or basically the typical kid performs like the ninety-fifth percentile kid. And so we’ll say, “Wow, that’s a real breakthrough.” Then we’ve got two or three, maybe four years to get AI to be as good as the human tutor. And so the idea would be that…
Ben Kornell: You train the AI on those tutoring sessions?
Reed Hastings: Those tutoring sessions and other ones, because that’s grade-specific. That’s around seventh-grade math, but you need a broader range. But yes, think of it as there’ll be a lot of training from really good human tutors, and then we’re off to the races with much higher learning. Okay. Then there’s how long does it take to get it into schools? That’s gonna be the tricky one.
How long until AI tutoring reaches schools?
Reed Hastings: Basically math is all taught individualized, and there’s no more classroom math teaching, right? So that will happen school by school, classroom by classroom. So you’re talking ten years of diffusion, as people see how much better it works. And it’ll be led by homeschools, private schools, charter schools, but of course we need school districts to adopt it, as they see that it really makes the kids feel so good that they’re getting the personal attention and they’re learning so much. And there’ll probably be, in the early days, some kinks where the tutor goes off script and we’ll have that shocking story. But again, you’re talking small numbers. So the next couple of years, as AI gets better and better, just think about it as having conversations like this, and the marker will be when the fourth window in this panel is an AI that’s helping us in the conversation. “What about this, that?” And that’s an example, which is, again, not economically feasible today, but it’s coming.
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