0:11Hi, good morning everyone. I have been so excited for this conversation. Well, first of all, thank you for coming on a Thursday morning. I don't know about you all, but I am tired and I have a headache. How many of you went to Usher last night? Amazing. Okay. Well, we are here today with none other than Ethan Mollik. We are super privileged to have him here to help us close out Dream Force this morning and we're going to have a really great conversation about
0:39AI and work. Um, I should introduce myself. I'm Paula Boldman. I'm the chief ethical and humane use officer at Salesforce. I spend all day thinking about AI and work and what we should delegate and maybe what we should keep for people and how do we make AI safe to work with and so on. And um I've been so excited about this conversation because well, you all have a copy of a book on your seat. It's called Manage the Machine. It came out on Tuesday.
1:05Actually, I'm going to ask you to make my mom really happy and hold it up so I can take a picture of you doing it. Will you do that for me?
1:15Thank you. Thank you. I'm actually take a picture of Ethan here. Thank you. All right. So um so while I was writing that book thinking about um you know AI has gotten really really good. It used to be that we would you know say write an email for me and then we would go back and forth with it and we would check it and then we would press send. All of a sudden we have AI agents that are capable of doing really sophisticated tasks over longer and longer periods of time. Something I think Ethan's going to
1:43talk about. And then it requires a lot more judgment and it kind of changes the paradigm. What do we delegate? How do we delegate? Well, how do we work with these new tools? And how is it changing the nature of work? And while I was writing that book, Ethan's first book, uh, co-intelligence was very much top of mind. And he has a new book coming out in a month.
2:08A month. One month. Okay. Called Coexistence, which I was fortunate enough to get to read. And we're going to talk a lot about the state of AI today. There are few people who have thought more about this and who are more influential in thinking about how we think about AI and work. And Ethan, who's a professor at Wharton, a very well-known author, thank you for joining us today.
2:27Thank you for having me. This is great.
2:29Oh my gosh, it's so exciting.
2:30I really appreciate all the pre-applause. It really raises No, I don't. No, it's just scaring me, guys. I have to I have to meet it after the fact now. I feel like a beggy for applause. This is going very badly. Let's keep going.
2:40We need it. We need it. It's Thursday morning. I have a drink. We need we need it. Okay. All right. All right. So for for years let's start with for years we talked about this concept of having a human in the loop. Something what we I was just talking about that right we can't complete work without having a person involved in every step. AI agents change the paradigm but it means that the choices that we're making become more consequential. Now how should we think about that? So I mean of the rules
3:08in my book I these four rules of the first book the one that has become most obsolete most quickly is probably the idea that you have to be the human in the loop at least in the way that we were viewing it before like if you think about co-intelligence is the chatbot era right you ask an AI to do something and give you an answer you get an answer back back and forth and like the truth is that as of about you know eight months ago nine months ago we entered really true agent era agents were mentioned all the time before that but now we have the actual agent thing people have been talking about that I've
3:36been writing about for a while which is asking AI to do something that does it and I have all sorts of weird projects that are you know they I can now delegate write a unique paper in economics and I get a paper an hour later I can say make a video of me singing um you know in a 1980s rock band about agents and I get that like I don't know what it's doing I don't know how it's delegating stuff it's making lots of choices lots of judgment calls and so I'm in the loop the way a manager is in the loop right I am assigning a task and so that intern model of AI which is like
4:06it's going to make mistakes it's okay that non-threatening sort of angle is sort of vanishing and in some ways that's great much more powerful and another way it's kind of unnerving because I can ask for things and they get done I don't actually know how they're getting done and is an agent swarm attacking everybody right now to get information I don't actually know what's happening so it's a big change so okay so here we are where you know you just gave a whole bunch of examples of things that we you know you could delegate an economics paper I could
4:34delegate actually creating a tool in my line of work to check uh our products for ethical risk, right?
4:44How do we There's a lot of things we should be happy to hand over, but there may be some things that we shouldn't be so happy to hand over. How do we how should we think about that?
4:53All right, so one of the big concerns I hear a lot about is like do we stop thinking? Um and the answer is like uh probably about some things. Yes. Right. Like what technology does is deskll us.
5:04Um my grandfather um was uh was an engineer who built the um fire suppression system at Cape Canaveral and he did it with a slide rule and matrix math that I have no idea how to use a slide rule. I [laughter] can't do matrix math in my head. I can't do matrix math at all. Don't tell anyone because it's essential to AI. Um but um it is um you know but we are in a we're like we desilled on that. On the other hand, there's things we don't want to lose skills on. And I think AI is absolutely going to take away some of your knowledge and ability to do things. What we have to do is be pretty thoughtful
5:32about what we want to give up. Um, and that's hard because, you know, we've seen this in education first, right? The first thing everyone does is ed like learning is hard. Um, and it feels annoying. Why do I have to solve the same problem 15 different times?
5:44I'm just going to let the AI do that.
5:46Then we don't gain the basic skill. So, we're not very good at deciding what we should be skill on. That's part of what companies and um and and schools and things need to help us think about. But, I mean, we're absolutely going to lose some skills, but that's not the same thing as damaging your brain, right?
5:59like we get to decide what we're outsourcing and what we're not and people who are deliberate about that are going to end up in a very different place than people who are not deliberate.
6:06So, and you're seeing this all the time in an educational setting. You're also advising companies who are dealing with this. In fact, actually the the question I get most frequently is how do we think about entrylevel roles, right? So if actually what's becoming more valuable at least one of the arguments in my book is that actually human judgment is becoming more valuable as uh as AI grows in power.
6:30How do we make sure that people actually develop the expertise from which to apply it?
6:37So okay and I will say there at one point I'm disagreeing with you. I think human judgment is overrated. Uh not not because it's not good. human is important and valuable but we I worry a lot about shining lines in AI discussion which like it was creativity before it was judgment like there is no if you have a four hour a four day long running task the exercising judgment all the time on that task constantly making decision constantly exercising creativity you cannot do tests without judgment and creativity it may not be your judgment and creativity that's an important distinction but to say it
7:06can't do it is a problem right um and I don't think I disagree with you on that so you know but I think people take comfort in stuff that I wish I could give more comfort like oh this is irreplaceably human that doesn't mean humans aren't irreplaceable but like I think we have to make decisions about what we want to give up and what we don't on the bigger issue of training like you know I worry about this a lot because I teach generalists at Wharton and right now everything is kind of screwed up in education we'll figure it out I mean education is always screwed up we're going to figure out the right path through AI as tutors are really powerful we'll we'll we'll find the
7:35right balance of testing people in classrooms or not we'll be fine I'm worried about you guys because I and all of you there because I send you generalists and they become specialists same way we've done specialists for 4,000 years apprenticeship, right? And apprentichip has often been a really good deal. I send you someone who's really junior who you can underpay and they'll do the tasks your middle managers don't want to do and they'll show try and show you whether they're good or not. You can choose to hire them later and in return they learn the ropes, right? They get feedback.
7:58Hopefully a really good mentor. Sometimes the mentor yells at them.
8:00Either way, they learn what they're doing and it it pays off, right? And they get paid for it. And that all broke down because if you're an intern, you've realized that the AI is better than them at better than you at doing the work because of course it is because you don't know anything. So you you're you'd be dumb not to use AI for everything because you want a job. And if you're a middle manager, you've realized that you can assign work to the AI around the intern. You don't have to manage people and people sometimes have feelings and stuff and you don't want to deal with that. So I'd rather have the AI do all the work. And companies are like, I want efficiency and learning is inefficient.
8:30So if you everyone use AI for everything, we get higher efficiency and therefore we don't need, you know, who cares what happens long term. And the trading pipeline just snapped entirely.
8:38And the way forward in this has to be starting to realize we need to build inefficiency in some ways into what we learn. Either you're going to need to turn to universities to help you think about how you teach people, how we assess people, and we'll have an extra year of Salesforce University at various schools like the way we do with MBA programs or else you're going to have to take time and make teaching actually central to what you do and say we're going to have to assess people without AI and we're going to have to have moments where they're inefficient and they're getting feedback from humans.
9:04And I think the companies aren't always ready for that. The companies that do will will thrive though.
9:08Linda, it's interesting because I heard I heard you say earlier this morning that um the worst scenario would be where we all end up just supervising AI, you know, just kind of saying, "Okay, yes, no, agree. Yes, no." Why would that be a bad scenario?
9:23I mean, it it it's bad in a bunch of ways. I mean, one of them is nobody likes verifying stuff. It's the worst job. Like the worst job in the world, like every time I write something and there's a proof read like I feel so bad for them, right? Like there's no way I we've all pro proof read stuff. It is awful work. So if your job is reduced to all the interesting works done by the AI and your job is s is both proofing it and then agreeing that you will be fired if it's bad. That is the worst possible outcome in an AI world, right? And it doesn't have to be that way. I worry that if you we just let the sort of AI
9:52world progress the way it will, that's what we end up with is like humans are you get fired um and you're responsible.
9:58Like it's just awful. And instead we should be thinking about the way we do this with other labor saving or drudgery saving techniques. How do we get AI to bring us the most interesting problems and do the worst stuff so that we our life is a series of interesting decisions and moments where we can be additive and useful ways. And I I worry a lot that unless we do design work around that, we end up with the default which is how do we automate work, right? And I think that's a lot of what we've been spending a time on, at least on my team as we were thinking about designing our platform is how do we make
10:26sure that for things that would be like you're checking yes, yes, yes, yes, no, no, no, no, no, and you stop paying attention, how do you get AI to supervise that versus how do you actually put a little bit of positive friction into the experience where judgment is actually truly necessary?
10:43um and or how do we make sure that we're designing those moments where people are thinking before they're even handing it off to AI and so on. Um sounded like you wanted did you want to No, I mean I agree. I mean, I think I just worry about everything being a temporary state of affairs. Like, you could design a world right now with the current the current systems are jagged enough, right? They're good and bad enough stuff that you cannot hand over large job functions to AI yet, right?
11:09Like it makes judgment like all the comments are sort of the same. It sort of looks the same. It's like any of you who have turned to like everybody who turned to AI writing six or eight months ago, like it looked good for a little while until now everybody gets plottish at first like and your eyes start to bleed as soon as you read a LinkedIn post now. It's like, you know, tells you it's carrying the weight and that, you know, the um and like it's just the worst, right? Like, but we're not going to stay there forever, I don't think.
11:32And part of this is how do we build for the future systems we want rather than just being reactive to what the systems could do.
11:38You see, I'm I'm throwing away the note cards, y'all. Throwing we're just going to do it. Okay. So, so let's let's run with that. Um the state of AI today is not going to be the state of AI literally in an hour or tomorrow. And it's it's going so fast. I actually think this is a place where I I feel very humble about it because my predictions were totally wrong a year or two ago. And um but like fast forward this, I think you're right actually to
12:07say we shouldn't be drawing bright lines about what's human and what's not. And AI is capable of creativity. It is capable of judgment. Maybe a different kind of creativity and judgment.
12:18Actually, let's start there. What do you think about is there a difference between AI creativity and human creativity?
12:27So we have a lot of studies of this creativity is really hard to measure.
12:30Okay. So we measure it with things like the rat test or mode association test where you're supposed to name f you know 10 very different things from each other or you know how many uses can you how many uses can you make of a mouse trap or that like those are the kind of measures we have and you know they they're good for human creativity like every other benchmark they sort of break down with AI but AI out compete almost every individual human in terms of the creativity we have however we have a lot of research that also shows including some being done by my lab that shows that the ideas tend to cluster more than
12:58a human right like the AI Yeah, if you you're used to this, right? Like it's like AI is actually not a bad writer.
13:03It's just one kind of writer, right? AI is not a bad thinker, but if you use AI a lot, you probably see that it has like the obsessions of a 2022 era Silicon Valley person. Like it loves NFTTS and VR and will always like suggest those kind of like and you know and and carbon neutral setting. Like it has a bunch of stuff it's really interested in. Um and it comes back to those themes. Now I can tell you we have research that shows better prompting techniques and other approaches will make the AI more diverse, more like a set of human ideas.
13:29But it's still not as diverse as really bringing humans to the table. We generate ideas people don't. So one source of human advantage is variation. We bring more v variation to the table and you don't the whole world isn't clogged.
13:40But can we pause on that for a second?
13:41Why is that though? AI theoretically AI has access to way more data than I could possibly keep in my brain. So why would having humans bring more variation to the table?
13:52So there's a few things. One is it has access to the data but it's trained on that data. And then there's a series of training steps the AI goes through to enforce the way it thinks. And one of the weirdest things about AI, by the way, about these systems is whether you're talking about, you know, OpenAI Anthropic or you're talking about uh the the Chinese open weights models like Kimmy or you're talking about Grock, which was specifically built to be very different. They all have almost the same kind of political views and value system. And we don't 100% know why that's the case. Some of that has to do with the training system. Some of it has to do with the data. Is it possible to
14:21push AI from its sort of centrid area?
14:23And by the way, the wrong thing to think about is that AI gives you the average answer of the internet. It does not. It gives you its own thing that's much better than the average answer of the internet for a bunch of really interesting reasons. But regardless, it tends to be fairly similar. Now, you could destabilize that a bit by being giving interesting prompts, but then you're also adding your own variation to this.
14:40That might be a solved problem at some point. Like, but right now, that is a very large jagged frontier gap.
14:44But you don't think though that so there's a difference between saying AI is gives an average answer versus AI can revert sort of to the mean. Is that it? It does not. So, so I mean part of what's really interesting about AI systems is you can think about it as like a group of experts working together giving you an answer. And so because the AI can essentially boiling it down can can route answers to the right experts.
15:07If if basically if law experts have written more on the internet about law than non-experts and marine biologists have written more about marine biology than non than non-marine biology experts. the AI kind of learns the biases that if it's a rude biology question, it will answer it with the view of those experts versus the view of another set of experts. So, it is it it actually is not pulling the average answer. It's sort of taking polls of the right sets of people or the right sets of training data. Got it. So, it makes it hard to sort of say it's an average thing.
15:34Got it. Okay. Well, I'm going to push on this one more thing and then we're going to we're going to we're going to change direction. So there's a story in my book about um innovation experts at IKEA who were trying to break down the concept of a couch and come up with a different prototype for a couch and uh they kept being like that AI give me a different answer and it kept reverting to boxy cushiony and they realized before ask actually asking AI they needed to challenge their own thinking. So they sort of started to come up with
16:03metaphors like campfire or gathering spot and they ended up coming up with this prototype that was lightweight called couch in a box. So it was like a very different thing that ended up getting exhibited at all these museums.
16:14And um I'm curious thinking about that example and thinking about your LinkedIn example of how people start to sound the same when they use AI. If that's not reverting to the mean, what is that? is that like that's just so I I'm going to give you the world's worst answer to this which is okay it's a prompting skill issue to some extent here right like you are not read like there is a lot of stuff on LinkedIn that is absolutely terrifically written by AI and you pan Graham will tell you it is right still for now a good detector but like that is doesn't read like AI
16:43writing so there is like a little bit like by the way this is where we can talk more about wide knowledge but like knowing writing is helpful because you can tell what's good and what isn't in the same case with the IKEA thing the by the way the right way to do any kind of ideation session looks the same as with AI. Brainstorming was invented in 1955 and by 1957 we knew it was a terrible idea, but we keep doing it because it feels good. But like any ideation session should always start by you writing down your ideas individually before you talk to any other person so you don't pollute your mind with their idea. Same way with working with AI. You should absolutely write down ideas on
17:13your own. Then you have the AI do it.
17:14Then it turns out if you push the AI, we found you can generate like a thousand unique ideas from the AI. You just have to keep pushing it. And if you say things make it more extreme. How would a superhero use you know this you actually get much more diverse idea of you're still doing selection I mentioned wide knowledge taste is another unique thing about about humans um that or at least semi-e for right now that we have good that we our taste matters right picking the bad LinkedIn answer versus the good one that but it's not the average answer. You can get a huge diversity of answers. People are picking the average answer or they're satisficing themselves
17:43with one answer. Why would you get one answer out of the AI when you get 3,000 and you can pick the right one?
17:48Okay. So, it's a prompting problem. It's a It's a way we should be addressing.
17:52The most annoying thing you could ever say is a skill issue, but this is a little bit of a skill issue.
17:56Okay. Okay. Um, let's So, so you're making a pretty compelling case that AI is getting better and better, that we shouldn't have bright lines about what we think that people should do and AI should do, but you also just have a book coming to market about the case for seeing human at work if I'm if I'm not mischaracterizing it. So if you project out and you there is so much anxiety about a possible jobs apocalypse or what it why are you optimistic about it? So okay so there's there's the jobs issue and then there's the human issue right
18:26and the jobs issue I mean all of you work for organizations and you know the world is not nearly as easy as people think there's all kinds of frictions the model um that I I find very compelling from the economics on this is what's called the O-ring model jobs and it's based on the idea of the space shuttle challenger tragically which had 1600 pieces work right and one thing failed which was an O-ring that kept gas in and that exploded the challenger one failure in a complex system is not the same thing as a small minus it can stop the entire system. And because AI is jagged,
18:55it's good at some stuff and bad at some stuff you wouldn't expect. It matters that it's not equally good at everything that you do or that parts it can't do because it's a machine or that it's entra, you know, trapped in in your environment. And so, as a result, human jobs will shift. The value is going to shift to different parts of that O-ring really quickly. You can see a sample of that happening in coding right now, right? We went from what were you hired before? You are a good elegant coder who could write really good code to then it became are you a good prompter? Can you prompt AI really well to get code? And then it became are you like the best
19:24engineers I know don't write code anymore. They now their job is can they give a good good requirement to the AI with the right kind of checkpoints and the right imagination the outcome that is the job hasn't gone away right but it has shifted what the value is really quickly as it moves along that O-ring. Now start stacking those in an organization and you realize there's lots of like points of of friction.
19:45Yeah. I've been, you know, in my little things at Wharton and elsewhere, we've been hiring more coders because we have more ideas for code, but the last little bit the which is not always, by the way, boring verification work, but all of the kind of pieces we're missing. We need actual coders to do that work. I don't think we know what 10 years from now looks like, right? But I think that this transition is not going to be as clean as people think it is. And that's separate from the idea of what we bring human to the table, which we could also talk about.
20:09Yeah. Well, I would love to talk about both of those, but I actually think the coding example is a great one because I think that's right. when we say uh or when I say you know people are going to be managing machines the idea is what you mentioned earlier like yes yes yes no no no but actually what we see in coding is that in in fact what people are doing now are they're they're sort of upleveling the it's sort of we're thinking about the architectural questions and how the code fits together and what the values are that go into it and all of that kind of stuff and I know
20:38that's probably not applicable across the board I think it will be uneven what the impact of AI will be in different roles and different jobs. But it does seem to me like a pretty good example of how AI could uplevel what people are doing.
20:53I mean, I think it's going to be chaos. I mean, I mean, I mean, for example, on coding, there's a nice paper out of anthropic that suggests that uh managers are actually better coders now with AI than coders are because they're better at specifying what the requests are.
21:06Like job jobs are already blurring in every company I talk to. It's like a complete mess. like the senior leadership often doesn't know or or know what to do about it but like you know designers are now coding and product managers are doing everything and like what do you do with a like all these jobs are breaking down so like in some ways like part of what happens is our jobs transform. I'm a professor of entrepreneurship. It has never been a better time to launch a company because companies were all about the fact that you were really good at one thing and then you were bad at everything else and you had to hope you were good enough at your one thing and lucky enough that the
21:34other stuff you're bad at didn't kill you. And now the AI is really good at all that other stuff. So suddenly whatever you're best at you have an accelerator for. So I think we'll see that in companies as well. But again it's messy, right? Companies don't know what to do with this. There will be job losses. There's going to be transformations across industries in ways that are really hard to predict.
21:51So well let's talk about what we what should stay human. I would I mean I'm just going to open up to that to you as a as a broad question since it's a super confusing time hard to predict like what are the things that we shouldn't delegate to AI? So I think there I I have a whole list in the book of different times to not delegate. Some of these are about personal improvement, right? You shouldn't delegate to the AI if you want to learn because you're not really going to learn unless you're using the AI actively for learning, right? You shouldn't delegate to the AI when you know if like if the human touch
22:20is the thing that matters because then when someone finds out they actually are mad at you as opposed to using AI for other circumstances. There's a lot of times not to use it. On a broader societal level, we have a lot of weird choices to make because humans have been the gate for so many different things.
22:32Like one of the things I do as a professor is write letters of recommendation for people, right? Nobody actually cares about the letter. What they care about is that I have set my time on fire as a symbol that I care about somebody, right? And so it takes me 45 minutes to write a letter, whatever it is, and that's an indicator.
22:46And you know, I and when I ask my students, would you rather have a better letter I write in one minute or a letter that's not as good that takes 45 minutes? Everyone's like, it's a one-minute letter. Um, and in fact, one of my students actually sent me the prompt they wanted me to use for the letter of recommendation and just say, "Put this in." and and I did because they asked me to and then I mentioned it. Um but the um but I think that that's a human system, right? There's a whole bunch of these kind of gates where we assume that the work involved was an indicator of thought or effort. Essays are the same kind of way, right? Is a greater. And so I think one of the
23:16things we have to reconstruct is what does it mean when all of this human effort stuff? I mean nobody wants more powerpoints, but that is the first outcome of AI in every organization, right? Is you drown under work slop and that's because a you're incentivized to create powerpoints, but the powerpoints were never the point. It was supposed to be that that PowerPoint was a debate and an argument between people and a research effort. So we have to think hard about that. We you can't just say PowerPoint should stay human or this policy stays human. We have to instead be really deep about what is the output of the job that mattered. What did we want a human to add to it? And I mean
23:45that's tough because organizations don't change quickly. So I think we're going to have this gap period where people are automating their work and doing much less work or whatever, right? Or worrying they're going to get fired, but the fundamental work is still is still, you know, is different from what you're being measured on. Yeah. No, I agree with that and I I actually think that type of analysis is too rare where we're actually talking about the work itself versus just AI. Um, I want to talk about what happens when we introduce AI into teams which is uh happening very
24:13quickly. We're we're I was very excited when Slack introduced [snorts] kind of the multiplayer AI piece of things. And I've also like I have a whole chapter in the book about human AI teams and about how for example when AI is not well suited to a particular task it can disrupt human coordination and decision making. I just like you to talk a little bit about how you think about that like is AI a teammate should we should we think of it as such?
24:38So I think if you think about that like this is the big question right and I think you could think about this as like there's a couple of ways to view AI. You can either view it as a person or as a tool, right? And then you can either view it as sort of sustaining what we already do or disruptive to what we do.
24:52I think of the Slack bot, right, as an example of sustaining like it's just like it's a person on the team acting like a person, right? Um and that is a sort of sustaining kind of innovation.
25:02And it kind of makes sense except it starts to break down when you think about it. the teammate is doing 18 days worth or 18 weeks worth of work and there's a paper out of epoch that shows for 240 bucks you can get uh you could have gotten claude opus 48 not even the most recent models to to replicate software that take a human engineer 18 to 52 weeks to do like that's not an analogy of like assign this on Slack but we also have problems like in Slack we know who's in charge we know like what the dynamics are until the AIs are more socially aware which by the way is not an AI problem they can be but we're
25:32we're not thinking about them that way we're still think like tools or interns.
25:35When you start to think of them as teams of people that also have to respect boundaries and know who they're doing to that starts to change things then it starts to become a world where we go to this sort of dark factory twilight factory setting where we think about the AI is running things and reaching out to humans when it needs help or when we want humans to do things. So, I worry a little bit that we're kind of an interim step a little, which is like AI as a teammate is not the ultimate form of multiplayer, right? Because if it's doing all the work, then we're having a chat conversation. And you know, and also when it becomes cheap enough for it to fail, who cares, right? It failed. It
26:05just took you a few minutes to to do a test that would have taken you three weeks. Why not have it make the whole prototype? Why not have it open Blender and do all the work for you and give you a video of what this would look like in the end? Because it's cheap and easy to do. That changes how work operates. So I worry a little bit that we are thinking short term about that.
26:21I Yeah, we're probably thinking short term about a lot of this, right? Because it's hard for us to conceive of exponential technology and what the impacts are and so on. Um you also mentioned earlier that one of the things that we shouldn't hand over is when it's really about human relationships. I tend to believe we're probably underestimating how much of work is about human relationships. However, not that is not to say that it necessarily should be that way, but like like as I
26:48was, you know, navigating what happens in sales or customer service relationships across the board. What are your thought like do you how do we use AI in such a way as to strengthen human relationships rather than undermine? I mean, so I think that part of this is that there's a very plausible retreat to human kind of part like what we're going to end up I think doing if in a good world, right? And we can talk more about how to get a good world is that you're going to outsource the parts of the human relationship stuff that is about that it's transactional in nature, right? Like I you know I I mean I will
27:18tell you Astra and Fable have gotten good enough that they I don't let them write to any of you so don't worry but I let them read all my emails kind of coming in and they give me incred like they I mean they found I mean they find all sorts of you know this was an opportunity or an angle I didn't think about that was interesting to talk to someone. Here's somebody you really would want to speak to and you would have missed it. But even things like I I sent it a tax form um information about it and the AI sent me a message the next day saying actually I checked it and you put the wrong number in your tax form that you sent in. Right. Like so there's
27:46a removing some of the friction of human relationships that that we don't want to retreat to a more kind of human space. I mean there's a lot of humanness that we need to kind of embrace here. I I talk in the book about four things that you do. Um there are four things that are human traits that are worth kind of building on not necessarily irreplaceable valuable to us which are um which are we talked about one of them right which is the idea of uh of taste and selection like it matters you I can do many of a thing you want to pick among them right the bad LinkedIn posts are result of bad taste you should be able to produce many of them and read
28:16but if you're wide and that fits into um you know the wide knowledge of deep knowledge so deep knowledge is deep expertise in a field that lets you both compete with AI because it's not as good at you at what you're very best at for now but also lets you make judgment calls along with this. Like one of the most expensive things about AI we talk you has the cognitive dissonance of and we have there's some great research on this too. It gives you a huge wall of text and you are like I'm just like distracted and confused and a lot of the time that AI saves you gets eaten up by the fact that it is really bad at keeping you on track cognitively, right?
28:46And so but deep knowledge lets you easily check the AI's work without getting distracted. Like you're a manager, you can look at that spreadsheet, there's something wrong with it. That is very useful. Then there's wide knowledge. We've talked about this a bit too like knowing many things about many topics lets you better decide how to use AI. So if you know many forms of design and you can invoke bow house by a word or you know or you know or or you know successionist or whatever it is you're much better shape if you know many authors and their style and their styles of writing a little bit like this. No, you're going to Hemingway
29:15dial it back. Like that kind of stuff is very helpful. And then there's agency, like having permission to do this, which is not something everybody has, but we need to do more of, and you know, gives you some options as well.
29:26Okay. Well, I've been, we're running out of time. I've been looking at this audience kind of glancing over and wrapped attention on everything you've said this whole time. It is um it is a confusing moment. I think you've you've sort of left us with this impression of just how quickly things are changing and how blurry the lines are. But throw us an anchor. Like give us a reason for hope and agency.
29:51I think there's a tremendous amount of hope and agency. I I mean first of all AI is incredible but not as good as everyone thinks it is. Right. So like people are you know like you've been talking AI all day. I talk AI all day. It's really easy to get kind of caught up in like it'll do everything. It does everything. That jaggedness is real and the edges and the O-rings are very real.
30:07And like if you actually use AI for tasks, you realize that your humanness is what makes it good at a task or not. But let's say even that that's evolving right and changing. The thing I want to tell you is nobody knows anything. We are all making this up as we go along.
30:19But that includes the AI labs that are shipping this stuff to you. There's not a plan here. The systems are really good and that gives us a unique moment because the systems aren't good at everything in the same way and the AI companies don't know what they're good or bad at. We get to decide how they're used. And the thing I want to charge you all with is we need more good examples of AI for augmentation, not automation.
30:38The default view is AI replaces human.
30:40It does human work. That doesn't have to be the case, right? We can build worlds where AI augments us so we do the work that's interesting the human work the work we care about the work that expresses our variation rather than just being you know slaves to the bots and we're in a really wide open space where everything is in the air right now and people who show use cases that work those will be copied and used right and so obviously there's policy and other ways we shape what happens but I really think that the idea that you shouldn't just take this as received wisdom that this is being done to you that this is something we could do something with and
31:10the more you think about how to do it with in a way that ampl lifies what we're human and the more you share those examples and it sounds corny but I'm absolutely true about this everyone's desperate for these examples and I worry that a lot of people I was speaking to a couple nonprofits before sort of sitting back and being like no you know like there's some of the people who think most about being human are too worried to use AI or show these examples or share them I think it's really important that we get out there and give examples of how AI is transformational for good because the labs will jump on that software companies like Salesforce will jump on this but we need to be inventing those ourselves and not hoping someone
31:39else else invents it for us I love that. So, no one knows what's happening. Everyone's making it up and your humanness is what is going to make it great and we need more examples of positive use cases that are genuinely augmentative. Will you please join me?
31:57This has been such an amazing conversation. Please join me in thanking Ethan for bringing Thank you.
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