0:00associate professor of comparative media studies and writing at MIT. Great to have you all with us today. Thanks for being here.
0:08So I I want to I want to start with uh just the notion of how dominant AI is right now in the headlines in general, right? So in our business in the news business, it's kind of like you can't sneeze and and and not run into 15 headlines about AI, but this is the news business, right? And the word new is right there in it. AI is new and so it makes sense it's dominating the headlines. But I wonder I wonder in in the issue with the issue of schools right now. I mean it's not like the issues that have been facing schools
0:38from funding to teacher pay to teacher shortages mental health to students absenteeism etc. They haven't gone away.
0:45AI is now layered over it. I want to get a sense generally of how how where is AI on the sort of list of priorities or challenges facing schools right now. Or another way to say it is how much oxygen in the room is it taking up when we're looking at the school year and what is facing teachers, administrators, students. Maybe I'll start with you Matt.
1:04Well, it's sucking a tremendous amount of oxygen out of the room among other resources as we know with the data centers. So, it's not just uh the schools, it's the environment. And there's three-fold uh of a problem here.
1:16There's the first uh issue that teachers are dealing with every day, which is students resisting doing hard work and using AI as a supplement or a complete uh replacement for doing that. And that has existed since the advent of like cliffnotes and and everything. But uh the more intense issues are what is what is it doing to students uh cognitive abilities? How is it harming them in terms of uh creating a sense of anxiety, dysregulation?
1:44Uh and then thirdly uh the data mining.
1:47Who is uh gaining from this? Are the students gaining or is big tech gaining?
1:52And is it a technology that is being forced into the schools as excess?
1:57Because big tech has so heavily invested in it and have not found a consumer product worth selling.
2:03When you say forced into the schools, forced by whom?
2:06Forced by big tech and management. Um in the case that we're going to talk about in Springfield, the empowerment zone. uh and Alpha School made uh an agreement, a deal without even consulting the education workers or the union that represents them.
2:21Gotcha. Shelene, your perspective. Go ahead.
2:24Well, um I agree that this is being forced on schools in some ways and the environment where there are unprecedented financial challenges and all types of different challenges is actually, I think, making it easier for AI to kind of sneak in. So, for example, um students often use Chromebooks that started during COVID when they had to attend school remotely. The Chromebooks are still around, but because they're Google products, Google is able to turn
2:53on AI features and chat bots. And so in many cases, unless an administrator is going in and disabling those features, so it can be an intentional decision, Google is actually making the decision for how schools use AI um and whether students use it rather than the communities and schools themselves.
3:10Justin Reich, uh from from your perspective, uh how how much thinking are are is going into this when it comes to AI and schools specifically K through 12 right now?
3:22So starting pretty soon after chat GPT was released, we inter that my team at the MIT teaching systems lab interviewed 120 teachers and students across the country. We eventually released a podcast called the homework machine. Um trying to tell many of those stories. Um one of the patterns that we found was particularly in affluent schools where you were pretty sure that like all the kids were going to pass their state tests. um this was like absolutely the
3:50most urgent problem in schools. Um and those neighborhoods tend to have pretty substantial resources to kind of deal with these problems. Um, if you go to places that are like Massachusetts Gateway communities, um, lots of low-income students, then there's just a larger list of issues, homelessness, poverty, chronic absenteeism, other kinds of challenges, you know, and so oftentimes teachers in those schools would tell us like, well, like AI is an
4:20issue, but it's like the 19th issue on our list. you know, I would love to spend a day getting AI professional development, but there are no substitute teachers. There's literally no way for us to hire a substitute teacher this year. So, I'm not going to be going to getting any training on AI. So, I I liked your initial framing um that the challenges that many schools uh face are just as substantial as they were before JT GBT was released.
4:45Gotcha. Well, let's turn to some headlines. Uh this one not too too new, but I think big enough a headline that that we ought to talk about. And this is uh I think this is back in January. Big sweeping report came out from the Brookings Institution Center for Universal Education. Uh they did focus groups, interviews with K through2 students, parents, educators, tech experts across I think it was 50 countries. Um you know, I'm going to oversimplify what they found, but basically the conclusion of this study
5:13is essentially that the risks of using generative AI to educate children and teens currently overshadows the benefits. That's sort of the in total uh sort of broad sweeping sort of determination of this study. Uh I'm going to I'm going to guess you've you've at least glanced at this study all of you. Um what's what's your take on it? We'll start with you Shelene.
5:36Um well first I just want to mention I live in a gateway community. I live in Malden and I think that our district has taken a great approach which is that they have turned off AI chat bots for now and created a working group of parents and teachers to make recommendations for when an AI product is safe and improves learning income uh outcomes and uh is equitable.
6:01Who's on the group? Um, so parents and teachers are on the group and they're advising the school committee. And the reason that approach makes sense is exactly because of what this study shows because the risks to cognitive development, social and economic development are so high and the stakes are really high. like some of the um outcomes that the study mentioned um there are risks of students not being able to form relationships to recover
6:29from setbacks to maintain their mental health. And so a district I think needs to be really intentional if they decide that it's so important to use an AI product that it outweighs all of those risks. And so I love what Malden is doing. They're not just letting the chat bots kind of creep in um but they're creating a policy that is proactive um and uh opts out of those products by default.
6:53Matt, we said in the you know in when I was introducing you all that you know you are the head of the Massachusetts teachers union now recently, but you're a classroom teacher for 25 years. One of the things this study found is that AI the damages [clears throat] it has already caused they it says are daunting but fixable. you've been in the classroom. Is it does that track with what you've seen?
7:16Absolutely. Uh in the last year, I've seen uh social relations uh diminish between students and faculty, but the um cognitive uh effects, the anxiety, the dysregulation. As I said before, I would encourage people to also look at uh some of the work of Jared Cooney Horvath, who is a a neuroscientist and has testified before Congress about uh the cognitive uh elasticity of students over the 20th century and how more public education
7:46has made students better than their parents except for the last 30 or so years with the introduction of onetoone devices and screen time uh in classrooms. Uh another thing uh that was mentioned about the gateway cities um there are a lot of issues social issues economic issues that we have to address but that's why um big tech is sort of predatory in going there. That's why alpha schools going to Springfield because they feel like they can take
8:14advantage of the disadvantaged.
8:17Uh this is the curiosity desk. We're uh talking about AI and K through2 schools with MTA president Matt Bach, emerging industries lawyer Shelene Title, and MIT professor Justin Reich. We've mentioned alpha schools a couple times. We're going to get there for folks don't know about Alpha School. We we will get there. Uh but let's talk a little bit.
8:36Uh Justin, you know, we're talking about, you know, sort of the potential damage cognitively here and uh education department has kind of released some guidelines in the last couple of weeks.
8:48They've been coming out and essentially, you know, there have been a number of things, but the the basically the statement we're hearing is like, let's not judge instructional technologies uh on whether or not they're happening on a screen. Let's judge them about their impact on learning. I mean, this is basically the every tool is a weapon if you hold it right argument that there is some good potentially with these technologies. There's some bad potentially with these technologies and it ought to be up to individual schools or individual districts to work out how
9:18to use them and the and the really the baseline measure here should be is it working to help students get educated or is it not? What's your what's your feelings about what you're seeing coming out of the the Department of Education right now, Justin?
9:31Well, there's certainly wisdom in saying that what every school ought to be doing is thinking about, okay, what could we do this year? What could we do in the next couple years to make our learning environments better and more effective for our students? And when schools try new things, we should evaluate them. I think what that dear colleague letter misses is that a technology infrastructure is not like a single thing that you do. It's not like a like
10:01one technique or one book or something like that. If you want to have a technology infrastructure, you've got to like buy all these devices and hire people to manage them and buy different kinds of software. Like it's kind of a big investment. And one of the challenges I think we're particularly seeing in K through six is that the the benefits of these infrastructures are are often not being realized and there are very serious problems that families
10:30and teachers are experiencing. Um so parents are looking at the apps that are coming home on their kids' Chromebooks and they're like this instruction is lousy. And then they're finding out that kids are spending inordinate time, you know, watching YouTube or playing cool math games in class, which are not like actually games about math. Um, and they're saying the we're not seeing the value of this stuff. We're trying to control the amount of time that our kids are spending on screens outside of school. It's not helping if they're
10:59doing a bunch of it in school. Um, why not just get rid of the whole thing and work on something else? and the and the you know the the the department of education is trying to say like well don't do that um you know pick specific things where these can be helpful and stick with it but I think it misses the idea um that you you know you can't pick one app and bring it into class like you can bring a pack of crayons or you know a gym teacher can bring a bag of dodgeballs it's not one thing it's a sort of huge infrastructure and I think
11:29you know schools are are should what what they should always be doing is revisiting these infra structures and seeing whether or not they're serving.
11:36Actually, the town of Cambridge did a great thing recently where they asked um their faculty and administrators to evaluate to do like an audit of all of the screen time usage in the city and they pretty quickly found some things that they thought were really bad like kids using screens for indoor recess and stuff like that. And then they found some things that they were happier with and now they have a little bit more data to engage in a conversation with their community.
11:58Shelene, um I want to agree with that. I'm one of those parents nodding. [laughter] I would also add though if if I can be more um plainly critical of the Department of Education. I mean look, Melania Trump showed up earlier this year in AI education summit with a humanideed robot. Like I think that the Trump administration is not hiding it that they want to see AI replacing teachers. And it's one of these many issues where there are federal efforts to cause harm and at the local level we
12:28have to counter that and fight back. So I would encourage anybody whether you're a parent or not, if you don't want to see AI replacing teachers, you should be getting in touch with your school committee, you should be raising this and in particular asking for specific protective standards because if we don't have protection, these chat bots are going to creep in under the radar and cause significant harm.
12:52We need protection. I think we need to go one step further as a commonwealth and have a moratorum on contracts between public education institutions and big tech on this issue so that we can better understand it and study it.
13:04Uh I agree that technology has variety of applications. The history of technology is the history of offloading hard work. That's what we do with technology and uh that's not always appropriate when we're talking about pedagogy and uh the science of learning.
13:20The hard work is the point. The hard work is the point and um you know I used to have to use the periodical index to do research when I was in college. Don't have to do that anymore. Yeah.
13:30Um but is that uh something that thought created a critical thinking mechanism in my head of which sources to use, which sources not to use, you know, discriminate between bad and good sources.
13:44Yeah. Yeah. You know, one of the things I think one of the challenges here and you know, there are plenty of headlines you can find out there with people saying like one of the things we do have to do in our schools is we've got to at the very least we've got to teach these students about the fact that there is this thing AI because they're entering a world where this is there. I think one of one of the problems is this technology is incredibly new. It's also developing incredibly fast. Therefore, I don't you know I hear all of you talking about we need to have protections in place. We need to be careful as we go.
14:13But how do we figure out where to draw the lines? Like, you know, I I would agree that all I mean, let me ask this.
14:20I'll start with this. Do you all agree that there is some role for AI in our in our classrooms? That it it has to be addressed in some way or or is it something that we literally wall our schools off from the notion that AI is in the universe?
14:33Well, of course, we need uh AI literacy as part of broader media literacy. No question. And that's very separate from using AI to replace what is yeah what is currently educational. I do think tech companies are doing a pretty good job of conflating those two things and kind of using circular logic to tell schools well your students need to be AI literate um and the workforce therefore I have this teacher for you.
14:59I gota Justin your thoughts on that?
15:03Yeah, I was I was thinking about Matt's comment and I think if you propose the Commonwealth of Massachusetts u moratorum on engagement with technology um that many many parents would object to that um because one of the things that they see is that it's is that they feel like it's really important for their students to have learning opportunities with caring educators uh like the teachers in Andover and Mald and other places um to be able to figure out you know not just how to think about
15:32these tools but how to use them in a variety of settings. I gave a talk recently to a group of um Winchester and Arlington parents who were organized around the idea that they wanted to reduce the amount of technology in schools, you know, and my daughter's is a coming in as a junior in Arlington High School. And I said, 'Well, you know, I think there are places that we can set limits, but also if if my daughter, you know, graduates from Arlington High School and doesn't have some experience um where she and some teachers are sort of diving into trying
16:01to do something with the these new tools, I think she might not be as well prepared um as she could be if she had those experiences. Um but it's certainly the case that every school has to do something. I mean an unusual thing about um large language models, chat bots, is that historically most education technology is adopted. Communities of people get together and they decide do we want to buy smartboards, do we want to buy Chromebooks, do we want iPads? Um chat GPT just arrived. Um it appeared instantly on the phones, on the laptops,
16:30on the tablets of pretty much every, you know, student and teacher who has one of these devices. And so even if you say, "Man, we want to keep these things out," that's not a business as usual decision. You have to do like a whole bunch of engineering to your school policy, to how your classrooms operate, to your curriculum, and things like that um to make it so that these things stay out.
16:50Matt, is there a role for this technology in the classroom?
16:53I'm not sure. You know, there are two industries that um call their customers users, uh big tech and illegal narcotics. And I think that that analogy uh is not without importance when you look at what's going on with Meta right now. The the owners of Meta uh are being um tried for basically the addictive qualities of this um and we know that they don't send their children to schools that are um forcibly using
17:20onetoone and uh AI products. uh where it seems like what we're headed for is a society where you know at Philips Academy we'll have a teacher with 13 students doing the humane uh social activity of public educa or uh not public education in that case of education uh and then uh the disadvantaged students are going to get robots
17:42listen to the curiosity desk this is our AI news panel focused on K through 12 we're talking with MTA president Matt Bach emerging industries lawyer Shelene Title and MIT professor Justin Reich Let's talk about the alpha school. We've mentioned it a couple of times. This is sort of this is the I I I would I guess this is sort of the extreme end of what we're talking about the fears we're talking about in terms of teacher replacement if if that's your position which is say the alpha school is a national chain private schools artificial intelligence tools
18:10essentially teaching the students. So each one has their own individual I guess chatbot that is their tutor. There are no teachers. There are quote guides I believe is what they call them at the alpha school. Uh here in Massachusetts, you mentioned this Matt, there's a school, Kylie Prep out in Springfield that that is wants to use this model developed by Alpha School. And there is an alpha school that is going to open this fall in Boston. 25 students,
18:37private school, $55,000 a year to do it.
18:40Uh I I think I know where you're going to stand on this Matt, but what's your take on the Alpha School?
18:46Well, I I think it's very concerning.
18:48First of all, this is uh experimenting on students and uh looking to collect data to um push their product. Some of the things uh that they're doing with the student data um they're going to take screenshots uh while students are working. uh monitor keyboard and mouse activity. Determine if the student is idle. Uh record students with webcams, microphones, put headband monitors uh on the on the students, uh record student
19:16biometric data. And all of this, there's supposed to be an opt out, but if the student is in a situation where they're engaging with another student, um there's no guarantee that that data won't be collected. I'll just say 10 years ago, we actually in Andover read the user agreement between the district and uh the Google suite um that the district was buying and it said in the fine print that Google um would be considered a school administrator for
19:46the purposes of the federal confidentiality laws. So, um people are being forced into these agreements, school committees, administrators, and students without knowing what they say. And in what other venue do we um allow children to sign contracts except with uh these types of data mining uh you know private uh industries from social media right through alpha Shelene alpha schools.
20:15Well I'm particularly concerned about public schools that have um pilot AI programs. Um you know you asked before how do we set these standards? AI is novel in a lot of ways, but also this is not the first time that we've had an emerging technology that has benefits, potential benefits, but also has risks.
20:35You know, we have experimental drug programs. We have learning accommodations already. We have ways that we can slowly introduce products once they meet certain standards without, you know, pushing them on students. In some ways, AI is kind of like cars before seat belts or medication before we had ingredient lists. Um, and it's just not fair to push an experimental product with unknown risks onto students, particularly in public schools, um, where they haven't consented or their
21:05parents haven't consented. Um, and I do want to make sure everyone knows that parents do have federal rights to object to the use of their students data under the um, children's online privacy protection act and they should know that they have those rights and they shouldn't let um, Google usurp them.
21:22Justin, anything about the alpha school uh, experiment, so to speak, that that strikes you as maybe okay?
21:32Yeah, I mean I I'm I've been pretty critical if there are some things that I think are interesting about it. You know, um one thing that they've said is something along the lines of um you know, we have to get our kids prepared for these tests, but it's not like what we want to spend all day doing. of what if we used machines to to do the test prep and then we'll do the test then we'll spend the rest of
22:01the day you know doing other kinds of stuff. I think one problem with that in the public school context um is that like collectively you know like as citizens who elect people to you know make curriculum and things like that like the amount of stuff that we're asking our schools to do like pretty much takes all day. Um, so the only way that the sort of two-hour model of al of of alpha really works is if they don't teach a bunch of subjects. Like they don't really seem to teach history and
22:30social studies. Um, they don't teach a lot of biology. I mean, it to me it doesn't bother me that, you know, like if a bunch of people who want to pay $65,000 a year to have their kids do two hours of online test prep and then do weird projects and field trips in the afternoon, you know, I mean, we have a system of private schools that allow people to make those individual choices.
22:51Um but I do think um you know there are parts of the alpha school model which seem to me to to um be not coherent with the expectations that we have of public schools particularly to sort of teach higher curriculum that we've agreed you know as neighbors and citizens is important.
23:11We're nearly out of time. Before I let you all go I just kind of want to get your take on another uh story in the headlines. This is a a couple weeks ago, late July, 98 teams uh teens representing 50 states all got together uh and basically in a in a here in a model US Senate chamber and kind of attempted to go through the exercise of saying like, hey, let's pass legislation, you know, that is a guideline for how we ought to use AI in schools. I mean, basically just like the
23:40Senate, but it was, you know, high school students representing their states kind of hashing it out and they came up with some recommendations, put them out there in the world. What What do you What do you make of this, Matt?
23:50Well, I think that students have a lot of common sense. I've worked with students for the last 25 years, and they know when something's up and something's wrong and when it's time to tap the brakes. And just because people use the term innovation and uh AI literacy doesn't mean that's what's happening.
24:06And it's it's time to uh take note of that type of activism and lean into the the humanities education that was just mentioned so that students are equipped with the ethical, philosophical and moral understanding that's going to be required as this uh AI um uh system develops.
24:27How about for students a part of the you know the voices for solutions here as we try to figure out how to move forward with schools and AI? Yes, absolutely.
24:36Um, but I hate to be a wet blanket because some aspects of that event were so cool, but it was put on by MIT Rays, which is part of MIT Media Lab, which is funded by a long list of technology companies, including Google. And I think people are not interested in technology companies setting the parameters for the discussion. So, what I would love to see instead is communities creating their own policies and making sure that students are a part of that, community based policies. Justin, any thoughts on this one before we go? Uh there's a long history of students being
25:06involved in Massachusetts schools. Um the Burlington High School had a fabulous model of a student tech team that was very involved in some of the very earliest onetoone pilots that were there that started actually as students just doing sort of tech help but eventually they got very involved in helping co-plan lessons with teachers, providing support, things like that. So for all these questions, I mean, you know, I'm getting ready to teach this fall and um you know, my my AI policy on
25:35myself is syllabus is pretty much we're going to talk about it. Um we'll have the students show up. We'll see what they want to do and we'll talk together and figure out what makes sense and what works.
25:43That's not bad. At the very least, let's talk about it. That's what we've been doing. Speaking with MTA President Matt Bach, Justin Reich, an associate professor of comparative media studies and writing at MIT, and Shelene Title, adjunct professor of law at Roger Williams University, where she teaches AI regulations. Thank you all for being with us, sharing your time and expertise today.