0:06But let's get to the reason we're all here tonight, Josh Elman. Um, I'm super excited to have Josh back at Lean Product Meetup for his second time speaking. He first spoke way back in 2016. I found this photo of us back in the old Medallia building when we started. And Josh is I was telling him he's on my short list of these amazing product speakers that just kind of stopped speaking for whatever reason.
0:29And part of why he stopped speaking was he went to Robin Hood as head of product. He was super busy and then he went to Apple and Apple doesn't let anybody give public talks. So he's been off the speaking market for a long time.
0:39He recently left Apple and let me give him a proper full intro. He recently left Apple and is now a partner at Andre Horowitz, one of the top VC firms in the world. Um and uh before that Robin Hood, before that he worked at Greylock and VC. Uh he's been on multiple boards like Medium and Discord. He has probably the most extensive BTOC consumer background that I've seen for any product person.
1:02He's worked at LinkedIn, Facebook and Twitter and then on top of that Robin Hood and uh and Apple and Zazzle as well and Real Network. So he is B toC to the core and I'm really excited. He gave a really popular talk. Um I'm excited he's back speaking again on what product management is all about and he's here to tell us today that it's still all about telling stories. So with that, please join me in giving Josh a warm welcome.
1:27[applause] Thanks, Dan. And yeah, we'll get switched over.
1:38Yep. So, I just want to thank Dan and everybody who's coming out on a Wednesday night in person or on Zoom.
1:45It's always fun to just talk about product management. I mean, I've been trying to do this for a long time and uh love to get to work on a lot of great products. Um, and at the same time like think about a lot of what this craft of product management actually is. And I like to start um, this is the first talk as Dan said that I've given in a long time. So I'm a little bit rough. This is, you know, hopefully give me the energy from the room to kind of keep keep going. Um, it' be [applause] great.
2:11Um, but it's just, you know, it's really fun just to like tell the stories of our careers and the things we've learned and the things we're all trying to do. And, you know, that's fundamentally what it's all about. And I'll start with the story. Um it was one of the favorite interview questions that I that I ever got asked. Um I'd been this engineer actually at real networks. I had run the real player. Anybody remember real player?
2:31You know it used to be like hundreds of millions of users audio video on the internet and I'd been an engineer and was kind of running the product engineering kind of program management and engineering for this core client and I would go to these meetings with other people who understood business. They'd be like we need to show an ad every time the player starts. We need to like go back to the homepage. I was like these are terrible things. They're going to ruin the product. But I didn't have the way to communicate with their beautiful Excel spreadsheets that showed him how much money we'd make until he put zeros at the end of everything. And and I was, you know, kind of my thought as an engineer and I like I got to go learn
3:00this. So I said, "Okay, I really want to just be a product manager. Maybe I need to go to business school." So I actually um I was up in Seattle at the time. I'd grown up there and um came back down to the valley and started business school over at Berkeley. But at the same time, I saw on the college email list they were looking to hire some people for LinkedIn. And I was like, "Oo, social networking. This seems like the future.
3:19I'm really excited about it. I emailed them and I was like, "Maybe I could help." They're like, "Why are you in business school?" I was like, "I want to be a product manager." They said, "Well, why don't you come here and be a product manager, maybe?" And I was like, "Okay, like I'd love to talk about that." And so I went for um an interview and then I kind of passed I guess the first test and I got to meet Reed Hoffman. And I'm sitting now with Reed Hoffman who is obviously, you know, an incredible founder and entrepreneur and has done so many things for the world. But back then he was just Reed Hoffman, founder of LinkedIn. and he'd been part of PayPal
3:48and and he sits down he said one of the things is you know you say you want to be a product manager why like what is the actual artifact what is the thing you think about producing as a product manager and he said this artifacts are really important that's what companies are we make you know engineers their artifact is code they write the code that runs the software designers their artifact is the design the visual look the graphics that appear in a product said business development they actually have an artifact it's the signed contracts and deals with other companies That is actually the contractual
4:18relationship for a partnership. I'm the CEO. My artifacts are the org chart for the company and the funding plan and making sure we're all kind of staying here together, but those are really my artifacts. He said, "What about a product manager?" And I kind of looked at him quizzically and and it was a struggle because I'd been an engineer and like I was used to like producing the code. My team produced the code and I said, "Well, product managers don't really have an artifact in the same way. We don't produce a thing that ends up, you know, codified in the company, but the
4:46fundamental thing we do is gather everything that's going on and try to write it down in a spec. And a spec is sort of the blueprint for the product and it's where we define all the requirements and everything we're going to do. And that's one of the most important documents because it unlocks all the teams to go build everything from there. And he looked at me and he said, "That was a pretty good answer."
5:05And then went on and maybe he saw how nervous I was and then kind of went on with the rest of the interview. I ended up getting the offer and and joined them and dropped out of business school after one semester and um you know kind of my career went on from there but I still remember this kind of like thinking about the spec. This was still back in the day by the way of waterfall like LinkedIn kind of ran through a bit of a waterfall method for LinkedIn jobs. I wrote a 120page document that defined kind of what the entire LinkedIn jobs experience was going to be. And we were trying to reimagine a jobs platform as a
5:34social platform where hiring managers would get an application and see who they knew that might be able to help them understand a candidate. Candidates would see a job listing and see many more ways they could get in the front door. And you know, this was sort of this big requirements, but it was really ended up writing this this very large spec. And as I've thought about this a lot in the future, the spec really isn't the most important artifact. It really is the story, you know. And so you think about a spec, you write a document, you know, and probably not many of us write these in the same way anymore.
6:02Obviously, agile method came out and we're all a lot more loose. But, you know, back in the days, you a spec would describe the system, what it must do. You could actually go through the spec and like, can this thing be actually done? And you'd check everything off.
6:14But that's not really the art of product management. It really is thinking about the story. Describes the people who are going to use the product, what they're going to do with it, why this product's going to matter in their lives. You have to be able to explain the story in a way that immediately is understood by the people you're talking to. You have to create the story in a way that can easily be repeated and can be kind of talked to from person to person. And it's just a very different document. So, kind of looking back, I'm so glad I got that job at LinkedIn and it really started me on this exciting career through social media, being back in the
6:42valley and startups. Um, but it was a really interesting kind of thing that I'd love to go back and revisit and think we sort of have as an industry. So, I think Dan already introduced me, you know, early in my career. You as I said I get to work on Real Player. I was at LinkedIn when it was about 15 people. We were trying to figure this stuff out.
6:59I launched the first LinkedIn jobs among other things and a lot of the stuff on growth. I went over to Facebook for a couple years and got to work on Facebook connect which was the ability to log in with your Facebook identity out in the rest of the world. I went over to Twitter was maybe 80some people and I got to work on user growth. I think when I showed up they said lots of people sign up and uh nobody sticks around.
7:19Help us fix that. And I'll tell a story at the end when I talk about onboarding that I think really kind of codifies some of the work and the stories we tried to tell at Twitter that I think at least made a huge impact back in those days. Then um I actually got fired from Twitter. There was kind of a bunch of regime change in ear in 2011 and a few of us were let go as sort of some of the product leaders and like what do I do?
7:41Been at LinkedIn, Facebook and Twitter.
7:42Maybe I'm better at finding them than staying. So I thought I'll try to be a VC you know maybe venture capital will help me meet a lot more startups. It turned out I really enjoyed it. I This was 2011 and you know this I looked ahead at the next decade. I was like there's this incredible era of new consumer products that we can build that we can bring people together on phones on mobile and um I got really lucky as a I became a partner at Greylock Partners.
8:06Um and I got really lucky to find a couple things like Discord. It was a small team that had been building a game and they said we have a better communication layer around the game. We think we can bring people together as they want to play. It's turned out to be an incredible company. found this small team that was actually based in China that was trying to build musically a way to kind of turn the camera on you and make a fun little dance or video that you then share with others in this great network turned out to be go really well and actually then got bought by bite dance and became Tik Tok. Um so it's
8:35kind of the predecessor to that. Um I got to work on house party. Many of you remember House Party. There's a period of time where it was the most fun thing you could do on your phone was jump in with friends and have live conversations. And again when COVID happened, everybody was stuck at home.
8:48House Party had a renaissance and and blew up again and then Medium a blogging platform which is one one of the founders of Twitter who I'd worked with at Twitter got to also work with him on helping to build Medium and so I got to kind of work and invest in these but I don't know about eight years ago I was a VC and I was like I'm not sure I see the same wave of consumer ahead that I've seen in the past and I missed building things and I was already sort of feeling a little bit like I missed that day-to-day going to build. So I actually went back and started becoming a product manager again. Um I went to Robin Hood
9:16first and um ran the product and marketing teams there. You know, we were building this up. It was about hundred some people when I joined and we were like trying to democratize finance and try to build a product that more and more people would trust, put their money in. Um and then um I I left kind of right around the end of 2019 and was like, you know, I've never actually worked at a large company. If you notice, like the biggest company I'd worked at before Apple was a 2009 at Facebook with maybe just north of a thousand people. And so I was like, I
9:46want to try a big company. I some of you raised your hands and said you've done that or many of you have at various points in your career. And I was like, I just want to work on something at scale that that's value to the world. that every day you're not just thinking about a startup that can make something that can get big, which is what I've done my whole career, but a company that we're making products that matter, that we have to improve them tomorrow or next year for the people in the world. And I got really lucky to have a wonderful time at Apple. I worked on the app store business for a couple years. We helped
10:14launch and and sort of relaunch a app called Apple Games that was sort of the the bringing back game center in some ways. Um, we grew the app store business quite a bit in that time. And then uh Apple has been you know working on AI as all of us have over the past few years and said hey we have a vision that we need to kind of bring out personal private you know intuitive AI that feels really integrated into our software. And so I got to work at Apple. My title was product management but you know technically it's in product marketing.
10:42It does product management quite differently than many of the companies in Silicon Valley. I had an incredible time um working at Apple kind of right at the center of Apple intelligence and Siri. you know, my team led our launches and how we brought this out to the world. And uh if you guys haven't upgraded to the latest OS, I'm very excited by what we've done with Siri.
11:01And if you've ever had that concern where it's like, why doesn't Apple understand my dictation? Or why doesn't Siri understand and actually do the things I want Siri to do? I'm excited for you to all try the new one that I got to help work on the last couple years because it's really great. Um but sort of you know as I think about this and you know as Dan and I were talking about product management you know we're kind of going back to this talk that I gave 10 years ago that he mentioned and a lot of it was around the definition of a product manager and it was a product manager helps their team in company ship
11:30the right product to their users. I spent that time in that talk and can watch the video if you're so bored that that sounds interesting. um and really tried to break down like what does it mean to actually help your team like you're not leading a lot of people think the product manager I think is the leader but I think it's really you've got to help facilitate this thing to happen and you have to really understand your team because that's your domain and how that sits within the whole company so you're achieving the company's goals and not just yours um and then it's really about shipping like we can talk
11:59all we want but at the end of the day all that matters is putting a new product in front of your customers and what that product is the right product, your real job is to help hone that and think about what that right product is for your users. And I was having this thought of like, okay, we all kind of knew what that meant a long time ago, specs and meeting notes and documentation and making sure everybody's doing the right thing, but how does that change now um in the world of AI? And so I want to give a few thoughts today on sort of what I think is changing, what I think really hasn't changed, and what is actually still the
12:29harder part of product management. And then whenever I'm talking about stories in product management, I spend a lot of time thinking about onboarding because I think onboarding is sort of the anchor of your product. It's really where the product story first gets revealed to a user or not first, but it's an important part of where that gets revealed to a user. So I'll start with just hey what's changing in the world of product management?
12:51Obviously it's AI. Um you know look what's really exciting about what's happening in AI is two different things.
12:59On one hand, it's changing how we work, changing how we code, it's changing how you can go from an idea to a working prototype. And I'll talk a little bit more about that. On the other side, AI is changing how users expect products to work. And I think we really haven't even tapped in yet, especially in consumer products, all the ways in which we expect things to be different and all the ways to be better, to have agents that are running on your behalf in the background, to have access to just express what you need, have the product try to deliver that for you without you having to learn it and figure it out.
13:28And there's so much that's going to be happening around the world of AI. Um, you know, as I said though, just for product management and sort of the art of what we do as product managers, you know, the cost of building collapses.
13:40It's no longer nearly as complicated to scope everything out and figure out what it might take to build something. At least it gives you a lot more flexibility to that. But what's really important is the cost of judgment hasn't changed at all. Figuring out what to build now becomes even more important than ever. So, I've always thought about this loop.
13:59Um, and and and I'll talk about how the loop inverts, which is you you have an idea and somebody in a great company, it doesn't need to be just you. It can be come from anywhere. And you say, "Okay, we're going to try to do this thing.
14:10Let's write a spec or a product brief or whatever type of document you start with." And then you go and you work with design. And you design the feature. And again, it can come from anywhere. Maybe didn't even write a spec first. Maybe designers did something. But this is sort of how we used to work. Then you go to engineering. You're like, "How long is this going to take? Let's get it on the schedule. Let's scope it. Let's figure it out. Let's prototype a little bit to see actually what we're going to need to build for this thing. Then you'd build it. And that was a long process.
14:34And if you went back and you got things wrong, took a lot of time to undo them. And then you'd finally maybe ship it.
14:41And then you'd start learning. And so you really had this loop that kind of took a long time. And it all started with a a lot of it was costing and designing and and trying to figure out what you should do before you'd spend that precious time actually engineering it. But when when things get absurdly cheap to make, you can actually really invert your thinking. Now, a lot of people are telling me product managers can just build everything. Now, I I'm not actually sure if that's really true. And I don't think we were hired as
15:09product managers as engineers to go into companies to build things. And I think if a product manager is building things, it looks more like this. You always have to have a good AI generated image in your presentation. But like this is not actually the right type of engineering.
15:24We still need our partners in design and engineering to build something stable, make sure it looks great, and make sure it works great. But it does flip the script quite a bit. Instead of that old loop where you got to go from an idea to a spec to costing to scoping to to everything else, you shift things around a little bit.
15:43You might actually take your idea and you can quickly build it with AI and see how it works and see how it feels.
15:48Whether that's you building it or engineering building it, it's not the same cost to actually um figure it out and then once you've built it, you get to play with it, see how it feels, learn from that experience. It's still a quick prototype, but I've seen companies move much faster now as they kind of learn how something feels and fit that in into their products in meaningful ways. And after that, you really then go into the stage that I'm calling designing it. Now that we've figured it out a little bit, we've actually gotten to play with it, we've gotten to feel it, we haven't had
16:18to like scope the engineering in the same way. Now, let's design it and figure out what we can actually do with it. How does this fit into our product?
16:25What's it going to take to have this not just something we can prototype, but sit and be scalable? And that's really design on both, you know, design and visual design and and UX design, but also engineering design. And then you can actually go and ship and learn. But it completely flips it from, you know, what used to be this to much more of a build and play. And I think that is going to change product management sort of more than anything right now. So the spec is no longer this deliverable whereas product managers you
16:54have to write a long document and I mean that's hasn't really been the case forever. But you don't need to start with trying to get a document to get everything right. You can jump right in and get demos. But I'd still like to remember be working products are not demos either. I've had this other flaw now every just ship it. And like I don't think that's really true either. I think we all still need to respect and make sure we're educating everybody around us that the the moment from having the idea,
17:22having the prototype to actually turning into reality um still takes a bit of time. But at the end of the day, couple thoughts that I just kind of summarize this. Prototypes totally beat whatifs. I remember so many times in product rooms, what if we did this? What if we did this? Hey, what if it worked this way?
17:41Could you imagine it working this way?
17:42You know, and there's great tools to help you try to realize some of that.
17:46Then you just prototype [snorts] it, actually feel it. Instead of saying, "What if everybody goes, "Hey, what if it did this?" Type it up. Oh my gosh, that's great. That feels different. And you can really quickly on this quick cycle kind of figure something out. And it really helps you play with those ideas. Just reading, looking at statics, looking even at like good mockups and prototypes. And we've gotten so good as an industry to make things almost real, but it's so different when it is real.
18:12And I think what's even cooler is there's a lot of work happening right now. How do you prototype things on production and even live systems? You can really feel these things for real. Second is the most important question now is no longer does it fit in the schedule, but does it even fit in the product? We all might have great ideas, but now it's really about the impact.
18:32Hey, if I have 10 good ideas that can all do them all fairly quickly, which one should I pick to have the impact I really want to have? And now it's less about this scarce resourcing. Maybe this or this, but we're going to be able to actually play with these things. And the good news for product managers and designers and engineers and everybody who thinks about the products is taste and curation matter the more than ever.
18:58when we have our vision, when we have this thing we're trying to do for the world, we really get to spend more time.
19:03You know, the systems that we build still have to feel complete. My biggest worry as we start to let AI make us think we can go faster as we'll just cram everything in and then we're going to end up with like, you know, we talk about AI slop in content. This would be AI slop in our products. And I've seen it happen already in a few little places and I'm sure we're all very worried about that. Um, but it really becomes that taste, that curation, that identity, that feeling of a complete system that's going to be more and more important than ever.
19:32So, I think about your role as product managers now and as I think about that definition, when anyone can build anything, deciding what to build becomes an even more important part of the job. That's always sort of been true, but you no longer have this really intricate scoping and scheduling in quite the same way.
19:52So to think about it one last time, you know, design time used to be really scarce. What's harder now is even just knowing what's worth building because you can move things so much faster.
20:02Engineering time used to be really scarce. It still is generally, but much more is to know if something's actually working and if you're doing the right things and if you're embedding things in your product in the right way. Time to your first version used to be the hardest thing to do. I think it's even harder now to get a team on the same page because you can move much faster together um than you can if everybody wants to do different things. And then lastly, we always have to ask so much permission just to try something. Hey, before we even have
20:31engineers pick up the the code to start writing something, we had to like make sure it was all ready to go. Now that we can do that much more quickly, now we got to figure out how to get our customers to understand it. And that's what I'll talk about with onboarding a little bit later. And every one of these is really a problem of what is the story? The story you want to tell. The story you want your customers to understand. The story you want to be in their heads.
20:55So these are the things that I think are not changing and are still the same thing. They they've always been the the core [snorts] story. Um so I'll go through these uh these three things. One is having a vision. You need to be able to actually articulate what your product is about and why it matters much more.
21:14Um, and it's even more important today than ever, although I think this has always been critical. The second is how do you actually understand your data?
21:21There's so much going on now. And there's new tools that are going to help us understand things much better. And then third is actually telling your team the story. And then I kind of end this with onboarding, which is and and other things that are telling your customer the story. So let's start with kind of what does it mean to sort of have a vision for your product. I have sort of a framework for how I define the product. Now vision, I don't just mean a mission statement. And a mission statement is really really important.
21:44But a vision is thinking about the endtoend reason for your product to exist. What is the purpose? Why is somebody picking up your product to use in their lives? What are they doing with it? How are they bringing it to a daily behavior? What actually are those things they're doing? I call those the core actions. When they pick up your product, what are they actually doing with it?
22:05And there can be more than one core action in your product. And it's important to understand what those are.
22:10And then third is the cycle. What's the expected frequency for each of the core actions? What does it actually mean to use your product? And so I'm going to give you a couple different product examples, which is how I think about this. And I'll tell you that that one of the things I've done over my career when I'm meeting founders, when I'm meeting other people, is ask questions about what their core actions and how they think about their product when the expected use is. And they often will jump to user data or try to give me numbers or other things. And I'm like, no, no, but like what do you want? Like what are you expecting? What are you designing for? Because actually that's
22:39the key thing that we do is is we're product creators. We're creating the story of what the product should be and we need to make sure that that's actually getting delivered. So just to kind of make this a little bit more tangible something like Facebook that's really the underlying purpose of Facebook is to stay connected with your friends and community. You add friends, you see content, you might see other content that's interesting to you about your interests. But fundamentally, you know, for a long time at least, I think Facebook's core value was to give people
23:08the power to share, to make the world more open and connected. That was the mission statement. But really, the purpose was you should open up Facebook and after opening up Facebook, you should feel more connected with your friends, community, things you're interested in, you know. So, what do you really do when you're doing that? Well, first is you might check it. You might read something on Facebook. You might scroll the feed. You might watch a video. You might engage in comments. But that's really looking at the feed and doing things. And that's sort of if Facebook's delivering on its core story.
23:37Someone's opening it going, "Oh, look at what's going on. I now feel more connected." That's great. Now, sometimes you might share. Sharing doesn't have to be an every time action. Um, that's actually something that I think they've been working on and thinking about over time because with less sharing, there's less content for people to read and engage with and you need that loop to work. But, you know, Facebook really wants to understand like, hey, when you're opening this product, hopefully you have something to say and share to be more connected with your community or to do that. You know, and then how often should you do this? You know, if you're
24:07designing Facebook, you're actually thinking about designing Facebook, that's something that you check many times a day. And hopefully, if you're connected with the people in your friends and community, you would share many times a week. And if you understand what this is and you write this down and you think about it for your own product, when it's working, you'll know. You'll see those behaviors. You'll see them growing. We'll talk about how to measure the these things in a moment. And when it's not working, you'll know too. If you don't think about this and write this down at the beginning, then you often don't know if it's working or not
24:36over time. You know, another product to think about is LinkedIn. And LinkedIn's very different than Facebook. I love this picture, by the way. This is LinkedIn from 2005. It's like so much more colorful back then. It was like this great two column web page, totally dynamic. We had link, you know, we had started to expand the LinkedIn platform to include LinkedIn jobs and LinkedIn services on the right. Um, it was just a really fun time and I use this just to like hearken back to this is one of the few screenshots I still have from from that time that I love. Um, but LinkedIn's purpose is very very different. LinkedIn's purpose
25:06fundamentally, especially at the very beginning, was to find and be found. And what that really meant was if you're finding, you're coming to LinkedIn to search for other members. Um, and and you know, a smaller number of people were doing that. Not everybody is searching every day for people that they're trying to hire or business development leads or sales. But if you're in sales or HR, maybe that was something you were doing every day. For most people, it wasn't. But the second thing was to be found and respond when somebody else reaches out. Now, for most people, that's not something you do
25:34every day. Might be something you do once or twice a year. I put the cycle down at the bottom, once or twice a year. But that was really, really important for LinkedIn to be successful.
25:43It needed a lot of people who were willing to be found and then at least some people who were finders. And that be found means you actually think about your product very differently. We spent a lot of time in the early days of LinkedIn making sure that people who wanted to be found would have their profile updated correctly, but they wouldn't be checking every day and and needing to be annoyed and learn something new on LinkedIn. Now, over time, they've grown the engagement. And there's a lot of other reasons to be connected to your network. Some of the things I talked about, Facebook now apply to your professional network too
26:12on LinkedIn. But in those early days, it was really okay if you were only found once or twice a year as long as you were up to date, you were active on LinkedIn, and when that thing came in, you would click on it and go, I I'm excited someone's reaching out to me. Now, take a product like Robin Hood. This, I think, is a a really interesting one, too, that I got to work on um seven or eight years ago. And you know, fundamentally, the goal of Robin Hood is how people invest and manage their money. And you know we all believe that investing in the market um you know if you hold over the very very long term and you're participant in the market
26:42that's a great way to have access to you know being part of you know developing wealth kind of over time. Now what that means is to to one of the key actions if you're have money in the market once you've invested some is to check in on your portfolio in the news. It's good to understand what's happening with your investments. It's good to understand the news if there's a major event that happens in the world. It's good to understand the impact on your portfolio.
27:06It might make you make different decisions to change your portfolio.
27:10Might make you excited to invest in new things or sell things you're currently invested in. Then the second action, you know, is one that is very personal to you and depends entirely on your strategy is to trade. Now, some people wanted to trade often and that was how they thought about being in and out of the markets and that was a great way for them to manage their money. Some people, most people invest and hold and and hold for a long time. And as a company, your goal is to not, hey, we need to increase trading. We get people doing more. It's
27:39to help people find the strategy that makes sense for them and become really, really great at that. And so, you know, once you kind of spend a lot of time thinking about that, you're like, okay, so my goal is to have people check the product, you know, once a week or so feels like a pretty good place to start.
27:53And then different people find their own strategy to do that. That's very very you know it's a very kind of core foundational way to think about the vision for how people would use Robin back in those days. Um you know another one I I got to be um you know an early investor and on the board of for a number of years is Discord. And Discord do many of you use Discord? It's a good number. It's great. Um you know Discord's a great way to communicate with friends and communities. You know, often people do this around gaming and a lot of the very early users like it was almost exclusively used for groups who
28:23game together and they would use it for gaming and then they would share things over voice and then they might text after the game and talk about it. Um, you know, and so a lot of the corrections were like you're playing a game, you're doing live audio with your friends and we were able to track audio minutes and audio minutes correlated with gameplay. You know, might as well chat and read messages and text with others. And so the way we thought about it in the early days, discord or we I say I was on the board so maybe it's really there. Um games were you know however often you played our goal was if
28:53you're playing Discord sorry if you're playing games with other people or hopefully that you're choosing Discord as your way to have this great communication before and after the game and then chat maybe many times a day around that over time. And so we really were able to kind of find that pattern and that behavior and that was really what it was designed to be great at. So when you think about what you're trying to design for, it really changes things.
29:15But I've shown a lot of examples that feel daily, weekly, you know, frequently. LinkedIn maybe being found a little bit less. But like this is all true for Airbnb too. I mean your whole goal with Airbnb is to give you the best possible place to stay while traveling.
29:28So that whenever you think of going somewhere, you think of Airbnb um to do it. You know, the core actions for bookers is to find a book a room, for hostess to manage the room. They needed the host, you know, this is a marketplace, so you need the host to be pretty darn active if they're managing rooms and they're being responsive. This wasn't like Airbnb's managing the locations. They truly were trusting all these hosts. But the booking is only two to three times a year. So Airbnb has to figure out how to design a product that is very different than the Facebook, you know, check multiple times a day, but
29:57actually be something that you are aware of, are thinking about, are ready to use at the moments that you need it. I think it's a very different behavior, but every company is so different. You really need to understand what that is.
30:09Now, I want to do this for an AI product because I'm finding it so fascinating right now how different these products are. Think about chat GBT. You think about like when it first launched, it was like you can talk to AI about anything. can have a conversation maybe many times a day. But but what does that mean and how are we actually guiding people to what that is? Um there's some real challenges here when you start with a blank box interface that you're up to the user to figure out what that use case is. It's pretty hard. You know, they do a lot more with suggestions and other things now, but the purpose really gets defined by the customer. I figured
30:38out how to do this thing. I'm comfortable with this thing. It's so flexible that that the real value now is how we take these AI products and the power and help people really find it because the number of use cases can truly be infinite but you're depending on your users to figure that out or you have to figure out how to lead them there. And I think we're in this incredible world when I look around Silicon Valley, the people who are doing things with agents and they're figuring out their loops. Like there are so many people doing incredible things. And you talk to most people how to use a product, they're like they figured out
31:07one or two things that's much better than maybe going to Google or helping them with homework, but they haven't found all those tools. And I think part of what I'm excited about and part of the reason I came back to the venture capital world is we're just at this nent era where we can build so many products that actually have a purpose and understand their cycle and bring people to access all these tools without expecting it all just to be a a blank box and and kind of these singular products that do it. So the next thing I think about is, you know, if if you
31:36really agree with me that we've kind of started with understanding why you want the person to use your product on some cadence, how did you figure out your data? And when I was a VC and now that I'm back, um, I ask people all the time, cool, are people using your product? And I'll get these answers like, well, we have a 50% Dow Mauow ratio. Everybody knows Dow Mau, I'm sure, in this room.
31:56Um, we crossed 10,000 signups. We got a million people on the wait list. Our ARR is, you know, 1 million. Actually, now it's more like 10 billion. Um, we're doing four billion tokens a day. We hit number three on the app store. Like, are any of these answers to that question? I don't think so.
32:12Like, that's just data. It's not really an answer. What I like to say though is data is not bad because data is the plural of anecdote. And what's really important is those actual anecdotes.
32:22What are people doing? And so, I I flip the question around again. I'm like, are people really using your product? Are they coming back for that purpose that you told me that they were using it for?
32:30Are they doing it on the cycle that they really expected? And so I really kind of push them to really help me understand the data much much better. I want people that engage with the main activity, that core purpose on the cycle, your product is there. The second thing is that they come on their own. That means they're not push notifications, ads, they don't just stumble into your product, but they really are like, you know what, I want to reconnect with my friends and family. I'm going to open Facebook. Or I'm a little bored. I'm going to open Facebook. I'm hungry. I'm
33:00going to open Yelp. I want to go somewhere. I'm going to go to Airbnb. It wasn't like great deal on Airbnb. Click. I don't really have anywhere to go.
33:07That's not really a user. Now, it was a nice touch in sort of the marketing touch sense, but it wasn't a a user of the product. And so, lastly is, you know, they come on their own. They're engaging in that core purpose, those core taking those core actions and coming on a regular cycle, whatever the natural rhythm of your product actually is.
33:27So, how do you measure this? And the first thing is you focus on direct traffic. And I I always tell people like when you're looking at all your metrics, really find the people who literally came to you. They had the app installed and they mashed on the button on their springboard or search for it in Spotlight. They typed in your domain in a website. They went and found that thing to go use your product. That's the first part of the traffic that really matters versus all the other ways you can get somebody back in the moment.
33:55Second is you only count the people who actually performed those core actions that you know reading the feed. Not open the app and quit but hey they scrolled a little bit. They might have engaged just a little bit. They you know on Discord they if they were using for gaming they got on a live session or they were actually chatting or reading messages.
34:13You want to really understand your retention patterns by cohort and you want to really understand it over months not days. Now in the early days you got to figure this out day by day week by week. But over time, you really want to say, "Okay, who's doing this on the regular cycle regularly in their lives."
34:28Um, and you know, on something like Airbnb, you don't really know until they've come back two or three times to travel over the course of that year. And you want to be really careful. I see so many people when they get excited about their metrics that they're getting fooled by non-direct and non-retained users and that they're like, "Oh, we got so many people today." And the chance that those people are coming back might be very, very low. You need to be really good at the people who keep coming back.
34:50you know, Dan's meetup, he's got a bunch of people who are here for the first time. That's awesome. But it's really a successful community in a meetup when people come back time and time and time again. And that's just on this little event. You can imagine this for for everything in life. Just novelty retention is not retention. The other thing I see a lot is like, "This thing's great. I use it every day. I use it every day for the first few weeks.
35:11Having so much fun with it." And you're like, "Okay, that was cool." And then you move on. And it's really hard as a product builder to get faked out by that. But if you can't define really using your product and what that really means, you're not seeing people really doing it. You don't really have a product that's working.
35:29Now, there's a bunch of really cool things you can do with AI that I feel like are very very different. You can like to say like your data talks now.
35:37You know, you're logged some of your transcripts, you know, and and if you do have these sort of open prompts, you can start to see what people are saying in their own words unprompted. see the moment that they gave up, they rephrased something in a prompt. You can see what they expected the product to do and they didn't. You can also just do this through interviews. The set of tools we have now to interview customers and get these AI summaries. I mean, it's all incredible. So, you can use your logs.
36:01You can use that. But I encourage people like read a 100 transcripts of actual user scenarios or call people and ask them what they were actually trying to do. You don't need a million of these, but when you actually go through what people are trying to do, you're moving away from data to actual anecdotes. If I tell you that this um shopping cart has a 37% conversion, you're like, "Well, that's great." 37% might I mean, depending on your product, might be terrible, might be great. Um, but that actually means that 63 people bailed.
36:29And what you don't know is why. Maybe they were online and they were in line waiting for something and trying to shop and then, oh, it was their turn, so they just forgot. Maybe they got a phone call. Maybe they were on the toilet and they got up. Maybe they truly didn't see what they wanted, they decided it was too expensive. You never know until you ask. And when you start to ask, you learn so much more of these questions.
36:50And the other thing I see is a lot of people are using thumbs up, thumbs down in products now. Hey, is this good or not? That's not really that much data for you. The mostly you get people who are really upset. Now, it's good to get some of the anecdotes from people who are really upset who are like finding that to mash thumbs down, but they're tend to be at the extremes. And when you find somebody who's mad, you don't always ask the second question. What were you trying to do? what would have made you happy? They'll tell you what it did wrong, but you rarely get the chance to go, what did you want me to do,
37:20right? And I think that's a really important way to go through these questions. So, I've over the time and over the years found lots of different ways to kind of ask these questions for people do. So, AI is great to help read your data, can give you all these great summaries. It can give you these new insights, but it's not going to form your opinion. That comes back to what the product manager art is. It is figuring out what that story actually is and interpreting that data is really always storytelling. Learn it, embed it, be able to share it back. So the last
37:49thing is how do you actually then do this internally and how do you tell your team the story? I like to say the spec was never really the point. It was always about creating this shared understanding and creating a shared picture of everything. Now how many of you are using AI to help write your docs and write your specs? Okay, I don't see that many hands up. I'll buy it.
38:08[laughter] you know, and and and by the way, I think it's fine if AI helps. AI should definitely not write it. I mean, it's got to be your voice. You have to stand by every word that you push out to your team whether or not you're using AI to help. But still, it's really all about alignment. And the doc was only ever the way to get that through. So, spend a lot of time thinking about what is the shared picture, that story, that framework of why we expect people to use this product in their lives. That's what really matters. So, again, I try to encourage people to go back and think
38:37about that story. Why is the user here?
38:39What are they feeling? Why does it matter? Where does it get oppressive?
38:43And where does it get boring? That's okay, by the way. If a product gets boring, if you understand that is, but if you can't write a good script, the product's going to be dull. Now, you actually get this chance to figure this all out for free ahead of time. And AI is actually this by building it quickly, you get a much better chance to kind of feel that and play with it, too. And ultimately, you know, what does this product do for somebody in their lives?
39:05If you just can answer that question, then you can answer my flip question. Are people actually using it because you're saying what it can do and then you're asking they can use it.
39:14So very lastly, one of my favorite topics to talk about is onboarding. And onboarding is really the crux of what I think is the most important moment in your product to tell your story to your customers. So you know the way you ever get to know any new product, I always say it starts at inception. That might be an advertisement. It might be a viral invite. You might read an article about something. You might see it on TikTok. A creator's using something they want to talk about. Okay. So, the person now is like, "Okay, this product kind of exists. I'm kind of curious. Maybe I
39:43want to try it." But then they show up at your front door. And this is what's really important is the front door matters. Here's a couple examples of front doors. You know, what is the front door for Robin Hood? Trade all in one place. You know, it's the website. It really tries to help you get started and think about what this product's all about. Or on the right you see an app store web an app store page. By the way, the app store page is the front door for a heck of a lot of people on a journey to figuring out a product. A lot of people now like, "Hey, have you heard of this new thing?" They actually go to the
40:12app store first on their phone to try to download it versus necessarily even go to a website, especially if they're not sitting fully at a computer at that time. So that's like a really important front door. I'm always amazed and having gotten to work on the app store business how few people spend as much time to really think about what that front door means on the app store. They think they're optimizing it in various ways instead of like welcome, hello, I'm so glad you're here. Come in and please use my product, you know, and then obviously the front door of most businesses is actually supposed to be a really
40:42welcoming thing. It's supposed to get you in. Onboarding is your moment. Someone actually got there. They showed up. Maybe they downloaded your app. you're never going to get this much attention again from them. Like everybody is like, I want the onboarding to be really fast. Let me just like get them through and get them going. I'm like, wait a second. Wait a second.
41:02You're never going to get the attention again to go, thank you. Hello. Let me tell you about my product a little bit. You're just going to like try to rush them through and go try to use my thing.
41:11It's so cool. And now you're going to like that blank box I was showing you earlier with like good luck. Like we have so much more we can do. And I I'm just so blown away by how how much there's still like this common trope that like shorter onboarding is better.
41:26Makes no sense to me. Um now the first thing to remember is not all user motivation is the same when they show up. I always say there's this group of eagers like they want in so badly. They've actually done the research. They didn't just hear about your product.
41:39They read about it. They their friend had told them all about it. They are ready to go. By the way, most of you who work at a company sit in that world of eagers because we're like used to the product that we think about all the time. Whenever we try to onboard to our own products, we're like, "Well, I know what I'm doing. This is really boring.
41:52Why is it there?" And I said, there's a bunch of people I also call the flybys. Like, they're just not that into you. Like, no matter what you try to do, um, they're really just they heard about it, they came, they started to see your messaging, it didn't work for them.
42:05Like, they're just going to bail. Give them two steps, 10 steps, doesn't matter. They're going to bail. You're just not going to get them. But those are on the edges. There's a big fuzzy middle here. These are people who are showing up for a reason. They're curious. They want to learn more. You actually can convert them into those core users of your product. But most people again at companies I've always seen all this fight to like design for the eagers. I'm like it's it's terrible.
42:30Like that's just you're totally missing the the point and missing the majority of the work that you can actually do. You're building for that fuzzy metal.
42:38And so here in my onboarding philosophy, whenever I think about how to start building onboarding for a product, assume your users are motivated and curious. Assume you actually have their attention for several minutes. It really is more than you think. Now again, you know, maybe they're in line for something and but like honestly, if you're in line for something, the last thing you're going to do is like, let me try this new product. Like, you know, you want to do it when you actually have that moment in that time. Um, you can actually do this. you can take the time to truly introduce the product step by
43:07step. I'm a big believer that more simple steps be fewer complex ones. I've proven this with AB test with many different companies over time. But if you have more and more steps where each one is discreet, simple, clear, clear what you're asking me to do, clear what you're teaching me in this moment. That is always better than hey go like fill this thing out and like here's do a whole big survey and try a bunch of stuff. Like that's too confusing. Step by step always wins. And and the last thing is no one wants a lecture. So a lot of these products are like, "Hey,
43:37watch this tour. Gonna like swipe through like five things and tell you all about like no one wants that." Like that doesn't actually help. Most people just swipe that to get rid of it. But no one wants a mystery either, which is like it's going to be magic. Just hit this button. So you have to find the right balance. Um so how do I actually try to deploy this? The first is you start by repeating the core message.
43:58Here's what this product is for. And you set context in the product. And I say it's fine to ask for basics, email, password, phone, etc., but for everything else, explain why you're asking. We had this moment when I was working on Robin Hood where, you know, we would look at our data and everybody was like, "Oh, the social security number page is like clearly where the fall-off is." And I was like, "Yeah, of course." Like, that's when it gets serious. Like, you were just thinking you were signing up for a fun little brokerage app. Hey, isn't this fun? But like, wait, you're going to invest real money? Add in your social security
44:27number. I would say actually, we should be even more clear. This is serious. In order for this to be a useful brokerage for you, you have to give us your social security numbers, we can qualify you, make sure if you make any gains and tax gains that it's all credit to you properly, etc. Um, and and when you explain that, it doesn't necessarily change your conversion in the funnel, but it changes your overall understanding and commitment with the product.
44:53I'm going to break your product down into these key concepts, and I'll show you this in Twitter in just a moment. And and you want each of those concepts to be a step with a clear action for the user to take. Step by step, learn, build, build credibility, etc. Now, AI, as I've said, made this harder, not easier. You get this blank prompt box.
45:11It's in some ways the worst onboarding screen that's ever been designed. It's a magic box. It can do anything. So, what do you want to do? People are like, type in a query they might have just typed into Google. And maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. You can do so much more to really guide people in there. And I've seen a lot of products now that I'm trying out. They're like, "Hey, I'm here to help. Ask me anything." I'm like, I am not always the most creative in those moments. So again, even for these AI products, teach capabilities now, concept by concept. Show me, hey, if you
45:41ask something like this, I can do this. And have them go through that experience. Give me a real task, not a tour. Tours get me lost. Explain why you need what you're asking for. Let people get to at least one thing though in the first 60 seconds hopefully with their own data or their own info.
45:56So it can be really really valuable and examples like beat instructions all day long. So if you can guide me to try something then I'll stick. And again you may lose more people. A lot of people tell me okay well a longer flow like aren't people going to drop off along the way? And I'm like yeah but the ones who get there are so much more likely to be around. Um and and so I think it's really really important to think about how to break this down. Um whenever I run somebody through onboarding, my favorite thing to do after I done the
46:26onboarding, before I kind of let them fully the product is go, what do you think this product does? And if they can describe the product back to me relatively well, then I know the onboarding has been successful. You'll be surprised how hard this is. If you try this even with your own products today, you'll be surprised at how hard this is. And so, you know, how do you measure success? what I was talking about, you know, one day, one week, one month retention. Really think about not just how many people onboarded, but did the onboarding help them stick around. If you're going to AB test your
46:54onboarding, test two versions instead of looking for how many people made it to the end, look for how many people came back the next day, came back the next week, came back the next month. How many people then go take a core action?
47:05Whatever I thought that product was meant to do, they actually do it after they've onboarded. And and I've said this multiple times, but I say it a lot in the third bullet point. Not many people do not measure how many people completed your onboarding flow. I don't care. I would rather have fewer people complete the flow if more of them stick around the next day and the next week and the next month and become real users of my product. My product is not about congratulations on making it through my flow. It's about the daily, the cycle,
47:34the actions. You know, retention measures whether or not they've really understood your product.
47:40So, I'm going to give one little story from Twitter. Um, and and then we'll kind of wrap up. Um, so in 2010 when I joined Twitter, we had a growth we had a growth problem, but it actually wasn't a growth problem. Twitter was actually in the news all the time. There people who are blogging and talking about Twitter and talking about Twitter in the media.
47:58It was incredible. And everybody was like, "What is this Twitter thing? I really need to go figure it out and sign up." And a lot of them did. Millions did, but they never came back. Now, we assumed the problem was we're just not giving them the right content.
48:11They're into something that just isn't on Twitter. We need to make the signup shorter because they're clearly getting stuck somewhere or getting lost. Oh, and then another great idea was like, we should show people more content before they sign up. So, when they come to twitter.com, it's like this great flow of news and they can search everything and then they'll be so excited that they're going to want to sign up for Twitter. Like, by the way, Twitter, especially in 2010, that's really complicated stuff. If I show you a whole bunch of tweets, you're like, "What is going on here?"
48:40The real problem was nobody could tell you what Twitter was. I could even prove this by Google suggest.
48:47[laughter] We eventually got to number one ahead. I don't get drunk, I get awesome. But uh uh you know, this was a good point that people don't get Twitter. Now, a lot of people who signed up, they're like, I don't know what's going on here. And it was like find your friends and follow some random people. they would just skip it and they'd end up with a page that looks like this, which is pretty terrible because it's a big empty box.
49:08And there was actually I'm overdoing this a little bit. There was a little box here that was like, "Oh, hey, you can uh um you know, you should find more people." Um but I take it out for the fun of this this thing. But they would go, "I have nothing to say." And they'd run away and they'd be like, "Twitter, I think it's about saying something to the world and maybe adding some friends. I don't know."
49:26So we completely rebuilt the onboarding over kind of a couple years. Um, I got some quick changes in like right when I started. I literally like started um my we we I went on paternity leave for a little while and I came back and the thing I'd started was almost ready to ship. So, we got like the you know, it's kind like the bandage and then uh then we really got to rebuild it into the learn flow one concept at a time. Really learn our Twitter. We didn't add features. We just told this as a story.
49:55This moved retention more than anything else we shipped that year. So, we started with a new homepage said, "Welcome to Twitter." We didn't like try to put content there. Find what's happening right now with the people and organizations you care about. It's a pretty good way to describe Twitter, actually.
50:13If you went down the thing, we we did this one screen. Now, I keep saying don't lecture. We got away with it with one screen. We said welcome and I testing cat was my where I had all my screenshots from. Um, get started in less than 60 seconds. I'm making it sound fast, even though most people spent minutes. And we just said, "Hey, this is a tweet." Tweets are short messages can have to 140 characters, contain links. So, we're kind of like, "Tweets matter. They're a concept here.
50:35Okay, quickly go past the screen, but hopefully you know understand that tweet tweets matter." The second thing we say is build your timeline. Oh, a timeline that might matter, too. And we forced you to click follow on people on the left. Now, originally, Twitter had like randomly given you 20 follows. And it was like super we call that suggested user list. It was super weird. There's like 2008 2009 internet history and lots of people got millions of followers, hundreds and thousands of followers from that. But we kind of did a better job making these like famous recognizable stars, celebrities, politicians. We
51:04curated this list, but it should have been enough that most people could find a couple things that they'd at least heard of and click follow. And when they clicked follow, it started to show up on the right. So you got this whole idea, follow tweets, follow tweets. and you started to build the concept was really important because Twitter's about a tweets about following and getting a timeline and then we kind of said okay now you can look more and we categorize things a lot more deeply now I got you the basics of following now I want to show you it's music sports entertainment design politics tech
51:33whatever you're interested in almost any interest so all of a sudden you could browse this and follow a few more so you're now ending up following a few more and then lastly we said find your friends and originally the whole flow started with find your friends and people like what Facebook's for friends. What's Twitter about in friends? When we got here, people are like, "Okay, I've already found a bunch of famous people.
51:53I might want to sync my email." The same number of people synced email even though we put it many steps later because the ones who got here were much more intentional about it. So, the whole thing it is true the first thing you put on the screen more people will do than than later usually. But if you can move something later and get the same number, that means it's now much more contextual and much much more relevant, much better. And we had this search the whole time so we could like find things as well. And again, this is like I'm showing like web history. Like this is even like an app like the but if you go through the Twitter, if you like try to
52:22set up a new account on Twitter today, it's not wholly different than this learning and this concept. They've done a little bit better with categories and when you suggest one thing, it does a better job showing you some more things to suggest, but but it's really quite the same. Then you end up with a page like this. We're showing you more suggestions. We've built it out based on what you've actually said and done. And you would, you know, this is not a list that matches that, but you would actually recognize each person because you would manually click follow.
52:50Onboarding really is your story. And I would ask people, what do you think Twitter's about? And even if they didn't totally get it and remember the what I showed them on the first screen, they would say, I don't know, tweets and following and a timeline and music, sports, entertainment, and friends. I'm like, if you just said those words, it's a great description of Twitter. It's about tweets that you follow and get in your timeline with lots of celebrities and famous people in any category you can imagine and your friends and that's a great thing. So the onboarding pulls you right through that story and I go
53:19through every I go through tons of products and especially now that I'm back on the venture capital side I'm playing with all these products again. I always like stop at the first time I try something I was like what do I think is this about I have no idea. And like you know now what's cool is you can still get those eagers in the early days and not have to worry about onboarding but if you really want to build a product that matters you have to to get all the way there. So again the goal of being a product manager is you help your team and company ship the right product
53:46to your users. But in this world of AI turns out the shipping is less maybe the problem than it always was. But figuring out the right product and figuring out who your users are is just as important as it always has been, if not even more. So, a couple parting thoughts. Always ask if people are really using your product. Understand what that means.
54:06Think about it. Think about the uses, the core actions. Spend more time on onboarding that feels reasonable. It's where you can actually convert that fuzzy middle and it it's where you really tell the story of your product. Can use AI to go faster on the prototypes, but don't speed up your judgment. Don't give up your judgment.
54:23Don't just say, "Oh, well, let's just test it." You end up with a sloppy product. Like, still keep your judgment everywhere. And the hardest job is still balancing all of our creativity as product managers with all the data we have access to. So, thank you.
54:37[applause] All right. So, thank you so much, Josh, for a great talk. I love all the examples you share. That's awesome. Um, we'll do Q&A now. So, the way it works is you have to raise your hand and you have to have a mic so we can capture it for the video and so everybody on chat can on Zoom can hear it too. If people on Zoom have questions, you can go ahead and chat and I'll be monitoring it. So, I'll give this to Rohan here. Thanks, bud.
55:02Who's got a question for Josh?
55:06Don't be shy. Here you go.
55:08Hey, I'm Tom. Uh, I'm curious. It's a bit of a chicken and egg problem, right?
55:12you've got a new product and you're trying to figure out that long-term one week, one month, one year retention. How do you approach that? How do you think about that?
55:19You know, when you when you're trying to think about this with a brand new product, got to start where you got to start, one day, one week, but but you really go like, okay, so I've onboarded somebody. I've tried to get them on. Did they even do the things that would make them likely to be successful? You know, if you're just starting a product, you probably have hopefully been using it internally. You have your rhythms. Do you know what they are? And is the first person showing any signs of getting that rhythm in the first day, in the first two days, they come back the next day.
55:46Like, if I give you something brand new and supposed to be awesome, and you use it a few times and you never pick it up again, I know I haven't succeeded. If you're curious and you pick it up again, you do a little more with it later. You come back the next day because we go to sleep and then we wake up and like, "Oh, that thing's still on my mind." That's a good sign. If you get past a weekend and they're still picking it up, like you can look for every little sign early.
56:08And by the way, when you're at like zero and you're just starting, like you're giving this to people that know you or are somehow accessible to you, you know, or you're starting with paid ads to just try random people. But if you're doing anything in your community, you know, hopefully they're even more motivated to try it than to give you there. And and again, the very beginning, you are working on those eager. You don't need to have amazing onboarding the very first time you roll something out. you can learn that over time and make sure you really know what your story is. But um you know over time as you add more
56:38and more it it it needs to work otherwise you know you'll fool yourself because you'll keep trying to get new people but you won't realize there's a no base.
56:48Um hi Josh this is Vir here. Um, so your point around like longer and shorter onboarding, I was curious to know what have you seen changes in like people's attention span over all these decades of like just just getting shorter and shorter and desperate to get to the point. I mean I mean look, when I say longer onboarding, I don't mean boring onboarding. I don't mean unnecessary onboarding. Like you can always make something that has steps that are just stupid and you shouldn't have steps that like people don't engage with. But if I
57:18tell you every moment, hey, here's what we're going to do. Awesome. This is going to make your product better. I got one more thing. Try this. Check it. You know, and you're adding data, you're adding value to the product as you go through those steps, that's great. If again, if they're all telling, they're all lecturing, you're going to lose people. Even if it was like three lectures, like one, you know, more than that one screen of lecture I showed you in Twitter is probably too many. Um, and so I have seen a lot of great onboarding I've been through, you know, was really
57:47long. Like I onboarded to I don't know if you guys use Life 360. It's a mobile app for your family and you see where they are. Like it's actually got quite a bit of setup to get that up and going.
57:56And I find that to be like I mean I'm there for a reason. I'm trying to make my family safer. So I'm willing to kind of keep going through the steps. Now look, if you're a little game, like games actually, by the way, are the best at onboarding. We just don't think about it that way because they get you quickly playing level one with like one little mechanic and then they come back and they get you playing level two, they introduce another mechanic and so you're actually learning the game over an extended period of time. You're just not realizing that's the onboarding because you're like, "Oh, I'm already playing the game." But you're really not. You're
58:26still onboarding until the game becomes a habit.
58:29That answer your question?
58:32I might try to build off of that just a little bit. a lot of uh stories that you told where of the last wave of taking things in the physical space and getting them into the online space. We've got AI, we got new stories that need to be told. Um any um early indicators of where you think the new stories that people need to hear are going to come from.
58:53I mean, this is what I'm so excited about is like we're in this incredible wave. We can build things that could never be built before. You know, we can have these longunning agents that will take care of things in our lives. And it's like if I show up and I'm like, "Hey, what's something you, you know, and this is not going to be the right onboarding, but it's like, what's something that you do every day with your family that would be so amazing if somebody could take care of it for you?"
59:13It might be like planning a weekly meal or planning, you know, shopping, you know, to get enough food to make sure that like my kids have lunch or it might be is there a field trip in the next two weeks? Like whatever the thing is that's like on your mind. If the AI can figure out how to get that out of you and or sorry, the onboarding can figure out how to get that out of you and go, I'm now going to set up this thing for you, it's going to take care of that. I've got it.
59:36And then it might move to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. Like those are the kind of stories that we haven't had products that can do these things for us anymore. Some of it might be entertainment. It's like, hey, where do you want to go in the world and let's go tell a fun story. What kind of stories do you like? Okay, that's really weird. Look at him. Look at me.
59:53Um, you know, there are so many. Um, I'll walk back in.
1:00:01There we go. See if that goes back. Oh, I don't know if it'll share anymore. Come back. There we go.
1:00:05Um, sorry, Spider-Man.
1:00:09[laughter] Uh, you know, where do you want to go in the world? Like, what do you want to imagine? Like, people don't always know what to do with that, but if you start to give them like, what's your favorite show? Now imagine there was like a backstory. Which of these characters would you like a backstory for? It's an incredible entertainment experience. And so like there's so many different things that we can now create and conjure and I have not seen them all yet. Like we're just at the beginning.
1:00:33I do have a question uh regarding cost and relationships. So previously we think before AI about the 1 is tox ratio between product and engineering.
1:00:46How do you see that evolving? And if you can put your VC hat on and talk about it and the second part of it is the relationship. How is that merging collapsing between engineering and product?
1:01:00Okay. I'm take the first thing on cost and if I didn't get to the relationship remind me and I'll come back to it. Um you know on cost like I thought you were going to go down the path of like AI costs a lot. Like that's what we're all thinking about right now. You know you want to build this great new product. I I was giving you examples like I'll take care of your family calendar every two weeks. I'll know when you have a field trip or I'll, you know, take a picture of your fridge and I'll figure out what you need and order you more. Like those are actually expensive inference things and and I don't think we've yet figured out at a broad consumer level how people
1:01:30are willing to take on these products and figure out what they're willing to pay for or not. Certainly for our productivity, for coding, for having access probably most of the people in this room, you know, subscribe to one or more claude, you know, Gemini, Chad, GBT, Grock, whatever, because we're all kind of like willing to pay and fund this incredible new intelligence we have access to. Most people in the world are not. So that's that's one part of cost.
1:01:51Um, you know, when it was in terms of kind of the cost of engineering, like what I think is amazing is you still need engineers to make sure we have a system that is stable, that is robust, that is going to be monitored, that's going to run. Like we're not at a place where like we can truly trust everything in the machines. Maybe we'll get there. Maybe it won't even be that long from now. Um, but you still need great engineers. But I also worked at Apple, which has a very different way of even having product managers to engineering design ratio. They don't
1:02:20have that role of like 1 PM to three engineers or five engineers. I always thought the best ratio by the way in in most software companies like 1 to 10. If you get less than 10, like you have product managers telling too many people what to do and making work instead of actually doing it. So like 1 to 10 was where I kind of saw the ratio. But Apple, they go much much bigger. like product managers kind of fly at the 50,000 foot view and think about what is the story and what is the way we're going to bring that story to the world and not directing work but participating
1:02:50in it and making sure it all holds together. I think we're going to move to much more of a world where you're going to have people like product managers directing work and making sure the whole story is holistic and engineers who maybe former product managers who are now you know vibe coding are going to be actually producing lots of things in and prototypes but I think the relationship also has to change because we don't need all the ideas to get figured out and written in that spec and scope before we start the work can be much more emergent you can have engineers who are really
1:03:19creative who might think of something and be able to prototype it and show it off just at the same time as you have a product manager like actually I can just prototype this. I don't need to convince you to write a bunch of code. So we're going to see all that merge and we have to do is have massive respect that at the end of the day shipping something stable and robust. Just because I could like code it with AI in 30 seconds doesn't mean I've actually built shippable code. I think that's going to be a huge part. I think that's going to be a place where a lot of the relationships are going to break and have to get rebuilt.
1:03:49I'm right at the back.
1:03:50Okay. Um, nice to meet you. And you have a really impressive portfolio. You know, you said you worked at LinkedIn and like Twitter when they were like pretty early on. Um, as an early career professional, I was curious, you know, now every single day we're hearing about a new a new startup. Um, every even every hour we're hearing about new startups. So, like how did you decide to, you know, go into working in these companies and startups? Um, at such an early stage, what was the criteria? What were you filtering for? I know that you
1:04:19mentioned, you know, having real users is one important factor of a product, but what else did you consider? Thank you.
1:04:26That's a great question. And you know what's funny is, and maybe Dan will attest to this, too, there were a lot of startups back in the early days, too. We were still hearing about a lot of stuff that was happening every week. And you know, you maybe in AI it feels super heated now, but I guess I'm one of these like old kermagins who's like it does feel incredibly exciting, but it's felt incredibly exciting before. I remember the social wave when like everybody was launching apps on Facebook and I was like every day like I got to 100 million users, I got to 10 million users. Um, look, I I always did the same exercise that I've kind of walked you through and
1:04:55I and I've I I think I did these extinct instinctively much more early in my career and I've tried to figure out how to write it down, which is like, is this a product I want to use? Is this a product that I believe has a purpose? Is this a product that um has a purpose that if it actually gets it right um people will use it? And if the people use it, well, more people use it. And then I would read about it. I would make my own conclusions and I would try to go meet the founders and find my way in.
1:05:21And I used to email a bunch of companies because you can never always get into your first one. But I always went on the outbound. I was like, what am I excited about? Where do I want to go work? Not just what came to me. And I got either lucky or right a lot of times. And you know, one of the nice things I I'll say as a privilege is as things compound, as you learn good things, as you're part of these critical times, it does make it a little bit easier to get in the front door of the next one and the next one.
1:05:46But, you know, then it sort of compounded. But it was always like finding a company and I when I wanted to even leave Facebook for Twitter, I was like, I love Facebook. I think it's going to go on to do great things, but gosh, I'm finding Twitter to be the product and the network that truly I think can be one of the most important in the world. And Facebook turned out to be much bigger. Maybe I didn't make the right move, but I still love Twitter.
1:06:06It's probably the one that I use the most every single day still. Or now it's X. So, I forgot to mention our sponsor, Vappy, has these lovely canvas bags. So, if you ask a question, you'd like one, you're welcome to have one. So, you asked a question. Would you like one? Okay.
1:06:21In the back. I got you. I'm I'm a little late. We have a backlog. Who else has questions that wants one? All right. Get take care of our backlog and I'll give the mic over here for the question.
1:06:32Hey, I'm Andrew. Um, did you guys have a a goal for that first session or like the first week at Twitter similar to like Facebook's seven friends in 10 days? And also interested about LinkedIn like Yeah.
1:06:46What were your goals?
1:06:47I mean, LinkedIn, as I told you, the goal of being found was that you had a profile that was set up and you Yeah.
1:06:54you know, was accurate and you might come back if more people invited you and you'd respond to something being found because we wanted you to build your network. We didn't expect you to actually do much more. LinkedIn was actually easy. It was like, are you set up? Are you good? Things may come to you. Awesome. You know, with Twitter, you know, Facebook talks about the seven friends in seven days. Um, because what happened on on on Facebook is you would sign up and then they would push more people at you to build your network and it really worked to get you then checking the feed. On Twitter, we were a little bit more like, did we get you
1:07:22following enough or or did we get you interested enough and you were hearing about Twitter elsewhere that when you came back, we got you to follow more. So, we got you up to about 30 follows. And until we had you at about 30 things you'd followed, we didn't have it that likely that you that you'd stick. And so, it's kind of this constant push.
1:07:38That's why we showed suggestions. That's why we would try to make search there. And hopefully, you would get to that point where you had enough that you were following that it was now interesting every time you came back.
1:07:49Do you have the mic? Yeah.
1:07:54Actually, I have a mic. Let me get a question from Zoom real quick. So uh this is about given the rapid surge in forward deployed engineers. This is a new trend. Who's heard of forward deployed engineers? Okay, cool. Uh do the roles of FDES and product managers converge? What is the future outlook for the PM role given FTEEs? I mean it's a great question and I haven't figured I you can tell from my background I spent almost all pretty much all my time in BTOC companies and I think for deployed engineers are really for enterprise companies right now and and what they're
1:08:24doing is they're going out and they're working with companies to help them get the most out of the product the onboarding's hard the you know prompt boxes are blank you got to help those companies actually do things my goal with the relationship would be for the goal of FTEES to be going to figure What did I actually have to do that we can just automate and have in the product? How can we make the product more self-s serve instead of me having to deploy every time? Because if you can bring that back to the product manager, have them understand what things could
1:08:52be made much easier, then you have a great relationship. If you think the FD is doing the product manager's work, like that seemed like totally orthogonal.
1:09:02Um, son. Okay. So, um I think I was recently looking at Lenny's podcast past couple weeks. I'm sure you all heard of him. So, um he did a like report on the like roles in product and I think design actually was dipping where product management engineering was going up.
1:09:21What's your what's your take on that in the future of design and product?
1:09:25I mean it's a great question. I think designers are incredible. I think like there's something about learning the art of design and taste and being able to put things together in a way that is both visual and in a way where you're actually understanding a flow of a user experience because designers aren't just like visual designers make it pretty.
1:09:46They're like make it work. Really get a user's head. Make sure every single pixel is perfect. I was so lucky to work with some of the best designers in the world at Apple. just what an incredible place that that puts design where it should be, right in the center of how to make things great for users. And I think that's only more important in the world where we can have everything. You can imagine an idea and you can just like conjure it up like we don't want like having a world where you can actually
1:10:13have designers with that taste with product managers with the goals that we're trying to solve for the users and put that together becomes more important. So, I think we're kind of tripping ourselves into like look, the AI is magic, but you got to remember the AI is trained off of all the stuff we've done. Like, it's it's amazing because we've made so many amazing things. Our burden is not to make the simple thing that the AI can spit out that reflects that, but to make the next amazing things. It's my hope.
1:10:41Yeah, I would just Hey, it's Dan. I just want to chime in on this one because I think what's going on I agree with Josh. The design is super important and super valued. I think what's happening is a lot of people don't understand design and with AI workflows now you can kind of skip design because the AI like cloud design or these other tools can actually do the design. So I think it's just like no I I know I'm not saying that people are right. I'm just saying people are kind of tempted to cut corners or skip design or not have designers or not
1:11:10invest in designers and now in the old days they would suffer. Their product would be horrible in that scenario. now at least it's like tolerable like it's okay it's a like it'll produce an okay UI so I think it's it's more like the lack of awareness or appreciation of it and now that people can the price of skipping it feels less people are skipping it that don't really understand it but I totally agree with you but I see that's what's going on and think and I think the other thing going on with designers is their preferred tool is
1:11:39Figma and they like to do their stuff in Figma and some of them have yet to adapt to AI native workflows and so I think that's The other thing is how do they figure out how to get into these AI native workflows and and Figma's got a lot of really good bridges and things that it does for AI too.
1:11:55Yeah, they've got they've got some for sure. So, it's it's cool. Anyway, I just want to add those couple of comments.
1:12:03Josh, can you can you give examples where a smaller or a niche product can still survive when a bigger player enters the market? Like something that comes up to my mind is like Calendarly.
1:12:15lot of people were using it and then Google comes up with Google calendar like integration where you can like schedule your meeting all of that like all the core functionality that I myself as a user was paying for currently but now the same is given to me for free on top of it's Google it anyways owns my Gmail my calendar right like what can a smaller product do to survive in that scenario I mean this is a very very hard question I don't want to comment on kalanly because they might be still doing great and they might have a big vision for a
1:12:45lot of other things people do. But talk about musically. You know, when I invested musically, it was a small team of 20 people and and they were like, "Oh, we're going to build a little new feed." And most people who use musically would record a little music video and they'd post it out to Instagram. And then you're like, "Oh, why aren't the videos all just going to live on Instagram?" Well, because when you came to musically to create your video and have your insights, you can only create them there. And musically did a lot of work to have deals with the music labels and good relationships. Um, you would see other stuff on Musicly and you' be like, "Oh, I'm going to swipe through that." And then you might go make your
1:13:14own. Then you might be like, "Swipe through, swipe through." Oh, no. I don't have time to make my own anymore. Because you were swiping through. All of a sudden, you started to use Musicly as a place you went, not just Instagram.
1:13:22And you started to say, "Oh, wow. I really like this creator who's posting things on Musicly. I want a relationship with what's his name? Andrew?" No, with with Andrew. Because he's posting a lot on musically. And now I have a new relationship with him that isn't even on other platforms. And it became this new central place. What I tell every company is like if you're just filling a gap that one little feature from one other company can just flex and and do you may last forever. You may be living in a dangerous space. But if you can build something that's a wedge that gets you going in momentum, but then you can
1:13:52turn that into something that becomes its own destination. Remember the traffic comes because people are coming there directly because they're doing your core action and that actually becomes a system. Then you can end up in a very very good place. But it's a it's always a hard question. Um, and you should always be afraid what if big player X does something. But if you never start and don't have a vision for how you can be independent and important, then you probably shouldn't start that thing.
1:14:18And I would just chime in. I use Cali like they crushed the use case. I'm not going to switch. There's a switching cost, right? So, and it's funny because what you said like I used to consult for Box and they always were like, why do people not everybody just use Google Drive, right? Google Drive is free. It has the same functionality, right? So, it goes back to the previous point about UX and design. They like they have a better, you know what I mean? I would I haven't played with the Google solution, but while functionally on the check boxes
1:14:46may match whatever Cali does or 80% of what they do, I don't know if the user experiences is good or not. And I'm not going to switch as long as they start jacking up. What happens is a lot of these places, they start raising their prices. They want to move up market. And that's how I've I've switched off from two very popular I'm not going to say the names, two very popular services just because they kept raising their prices and their customer service went down. You know what I mean? So it's kind of like I also feel like once you achieve product market fit, people aren't just going to switch and leave
1:15:13you for no reason unless you're you know, you know what I mean? If they're happy, they're going to stick around anyway. That's so but I think it's the same thing. There's so many people like, "Oh, I'm big." Well, the answer would be like, "Oh, Google could do that. Google could have done Tik Tok. Google could have done Facebook they tried their circles right so it's like oh Google or big company X could do your idea so don't well despite that there are thousands of startups that create niche not even niche but product market achieve product market fit in ways those
1:15:42big companies don't so anyway just want to add those two cents so all right who's got the who's got there's another mic somewhere right you're next okay go for it um thanks Josh uh I think thank you for sharing this masterass um and right now I'm building our AI native gaming company. Cool.
1:15:58And uh what's very interesting is is especially you mentioned in the slide is about the novelty retention compared to the retention which which we actually noticed that a lot of people come to the product is because this AI part is so new and never see it before in the before AI. So this actually the give a lot of novelty retention for us. So I just curious about your opinions like how do you differentiate between the novelty retention versus the actual
1:16:26retention that you truly build a product people want to use uh and what what can turning this kind of novelty retention user those fuzzy middle into the actually the eager users become a habit.
1:16:39Yeah. Well, so so I think a lot about um I mean it's really cool and by the way just to even be able to get something that's exciting and gets novelty and gets lots of people trying you like that's already really really hard and always awesome. But the hard the thing you have to think through is go what do I want them doing habitually? What what do I expect? Do I expect them you know if they play other games I expect them to not use my platform as the primary place they play games as the second place? As the third place? Do I expect them to have some games they check in on
1:17:08you know weekly daily like you have to understand if in the path of success what is that habit and then you have to look and go okay like people are new they're having fun when do I know that they've settled down into habit and you can't often figure that out at the very beginning it's often too hard and you got to tease that out and you got to figure out what are the things that like some people who turned it into habit what did they do in that novelty period that caused them to decide hide that it was a thing for them and become a habit.
1:17:37And what are the things that the other people did in that period that didn't get them to stick? Maybe they never shared it with a friend. Maybe they never had another friend play it. I mean, Roblox is amazing because on Roblox you come and you add some friends and that becomes the place you play together. And if you're going from game to game to game because a platform has all these games, but the friends are kind of what keep you there. You know, with you know, games like League of Legends who people who still play, you know, 15, 20 years, you know, of the history of that game. It's because you have your friends that you play with and it becomes kind of place I mean a game
1:18:06like poker or maong these games have been around for hundreds or thousands of years right because they become this great tool that we understand we've onboarded to the rules and that we can come and do together and so find whatever those habits are and what's going to cause someone to stick. Thank you.
1:18:25Um, hi, I'm Gigi and I had a question. Um, I'm going a little bit into the history, but I'll keep it short. I remember we were all chilling on MySpace and then Facebook happened. Yeah.
1:18:37And for people my age, Facebook happened suddenly because I wasn't in college at the time, so I was at the tailwind of the people who adopted Facebook. And then Twitter came along and even in my own recollection I was fairly early on Twitter uh initially and my question is both from a VC and a product manager perspective. If you look at these companies that are
1:19:05coming up against incumbents so to speak, um what is what was driving their powerful confidence because their early experiments weren't really that successful but they kept on. Um so what were like the if you can pull the curtain on like what were the early signals? What drove their confidence?
1:19:25What made them keep pushing? The same thing with AI. It almost feels like we've been talking about it but suddenly like it's everywhere. Um so just wondering if you could explain that a little. Thank you.
1:19:37I mean I mean I think it's such a hard question now and the beauty is I haven't met a founder who wouldn't be taking that incredible leap to go found a company that didn't have confidence. I haven't met somebody who went and took a job somewhere. At least I hope where you don't have confidence that the thing you're working on is is going to be there for longer. When you actually um go and join a startup, part of the reason you're joining the startup is this dream that this thing I'm working on is always my dream when I join startups is going
1:20:06to be much bigger someday. That's why you joined. So that confidence is always there. And then investors like, hey, I've got X number of opportunities I could be investing in. this one feels like they have a certain amount of confidence and a certain amount of instinct that could turn into a big company. I'll invest in it. None of that is a guarantee of success. It's all a guarantee of of belief and attempt. Now, if you go back to the Facebook, Twitter, MySpace days, you know, MySpace had this kind of original confidence that they were building something special. They also had a bunch of technical
1:20:35challenges. They end up selling to Fox when they were within Fox. Some of their great ideas to keep building them independently were challenged by being part of a larger conglomerate. and they had a bunch of kind of things that were dragging them down. There was almost so much spam or so there wasn't kind of the daily feed and the insight that Facebook had to be this this feed of content. So people would start to go, okay, well my space is a bunch of my bands I like and friends and other things. But Facebook as starting in college was real identity, real people. The feed was what
1:21:04people were actually saying and it it completely flipped the product script. Twitter was not u was like I was following news and media and bloggers.
1:21:12Facebook was for friends. Twitter was this stream of stuff that was interesting to me in the world. And so, you know, for me as a thinker, I was like, I think that this Facebook thing might be really important and we might still be using the feed 20 years from now. Twitter, I was like, that feed feels important and different. I might use both 20 years from now. When I saw musically, I was like, this feed is different and it might be around 20 years from now. I didn't I mean, Tik Tok, I think, is even beyond the wildest imagination of what we had, although the founder painted the picture of some of the things that truly became Tik Tok. Um
1:21:40and so you know sometimes those dreams come true but it's it's one of these things where you keep learning and every step you have your next hypothesis and then as it keeps proving out you keep going question online is also one I had for you which is you know you've been working on you've worked in all these amazing consumer places now you're in BC looking forward what are the spaces that you're most excited about with consumer like yeah I mean I I think um I forgot your name or you
1:22:08June the home CEO Okay, June asked about this earlier. Um, I mean, I think we're just at the dawn of how AI is going to change our consumer lives. You know, we've already seen how much you can do in in work, but you know, when you're trying to buy tickets for something, when you're trying to plan your week ahead in life, if we can find the right cost curve for all the inference and we can figure out the products that are easy enough to onboard to and get plugged into your life that make good suggestions that when you ask them to do something, they do it or they consult with you in the
1:22:36right way. I mean, even just what we've done with the new Siri AI and if you try to use that for the things of just like I was using this like what is my wife's library card because I had to go pick something up at the library and I'd written it down in a note and it was like just able to go find that and give me her library card. I was actually like read it to me out loud because I wanted to just remember it. So when I walked into the library um there's so many little things that we're just starting to unlock. So that's one part of just these agents, these personal agents that help us in our lives. Um, we start talking about entertainment where I was
1:23:06talking about imagine a world you can go into and it starts to create the world and AI creates a whole new entertainment experience. It's personalized. You're working on games. The idea that like games aren't just fixed things created by somebody else, but interactive experiences that you can have like we're just scratching the surface on these things. It's going to help you with your health in all new ways to understand what you should do and prompt you in ways that actually motivate you and when you have a little thing going on can actually ask questions. We're going to see things happen in travel. We're going to see things happen with your money and
1:23:35managing your money in ways where you know the biggest secret with AI isn't just that it can do things for you but it can explain it. you can ask questions. And so that's kind of where I'm just I mean almost anything I can do the imagine if you had AI to do that instead. And there's gonna be a bunch of these that are going to work and a bunch of them that won't and a bunch of them that the big companies are going to do even if you have great startups that the big companies are going to do and they're going to own in the future and a bunch that startups I think can know.
1:24:03One specific I know everyone's excited about LLMs and AI. I know another area that people have an eye on is like robotics. I'm just curious. You have any like thoughts on the robotic space or I mean this is probably I I always think from like a VC standpoint it's like 5 to 10 years and I don't yet have a good picture of you know how much you know if you asked me 10 years ago I was like self-driving will be everywhere and by the way we have Whimo now it's incredible but like I'm still driving my car around a lot of times when I'm not
1:24:30in a Whimo. Um, you know, and and so if we all imagine this Jetson's future where there's robots that do all these things for us, you know, there's this joke right now that like the eye is so good at like writing for us and making art and we're like, "Wait a sec." Like that's only giving us more time to do the dishes. We really want robots that will like do our chores so that we can have more time, experience the world.
1:24:51Madic is a little vacuum. If you guys don't know Maddic, it's a really cool little robot vacuum that does just a much better job understanding your house and layout and cleaning up messes and stuff like it's just the beginning of a generation. But I don't, you know, on the enterprise side, there's a ton of work going on with robots and they're getting into all these industrial and factory and other use cases. On the consumer side, I look forward to inviting them into my home when they're ready.
1:25:21Yeah. So this is a partially a question but also a comment. First of all, thank you because you are the kind of PM I direct and lead UX teams and you are the kind of PM that I lived for, you know, because Thank you.
1:25:38All of your all of your lists are cognitive principles. They're things that UX teams do every day and we can't seem to hear get the PMs to hear us. So if you are a PM and you have a design team, please pay attention to them. They do know what they're doing. Um, so I'm going to argue for design and I'm going to say that it actually matters quite a lot and it's not just the aesthetic point of view. It's actually the user flow and it's um allows for that zooming
1:26:07out and allows that the product becomes a service and that's actually what you've been talking about the whole time and that does my little heart proud. So thank you so much for that. And my next question is how do you see design evolving into the next gen? Because I see it as again a service as a product or product as a service either way that you want to look at it. What are your thoughts on this?
1:26:35Yeah. Well, hey, thank you for saying that. I mean, I've gotten to work with so many incredible designers over the years, and I've always known and researchers and designers and I mean, the entire design teams and design organizations, design producers, and I've always had great respect. In fact, a shameful secret is one of the rare times I got a bad grade growing up was in art class because I just could not draw and I'm just not a visual I'm obviously much more of a verbal thinker than a a visual thinker and a visual
1:27:05creator. Um but I think designers it's all part of the process like product is that story what are we trying to who are the users we're trying to solve for but how do we actually do that what are the right things the user has in their head that they want to do how do we understand user needs like the product manager can sit up here there's usually a lot more designers who have to go and craft that now I expect designers to be using AI in the same way I expect engineers to be using AI you don't need to place every pixel anymore um from a
1:27:34blank sheet of or a blank screen in order to have a great design.
1:27:38No, you still have to have the research to say why would a user do that?
1:27:41You absolutely still need to go talk to lots of users. And what's great, I expect the researchers to use AI because they're going to go talk to a lot of people and get all these verbatims and have very long things. We used to do incredible diary studies where the researchers would go in and like have people kind of challenge all the things they're doing in their lives and keep track of that and they'd be like, "Cool, what are the insights?" and the poor researcher would like have to read everything and like give us like a a a fivepage paper and try to get into a slide deck and we lost so much. I expect them to have that all in AI now so that
1:28:10all of us can query it and ask about it and say okay AI play the role of a few of these people and let me try this thing. How do you think those people would react based on what you now understand about them? And like the researcher should be inherently building all these tools like everything we do should be reimagined with the power of AI but it doesn't obiate the need for that thinking and really the person who's a deep expert in that. But if you're the designer or the researcher who's like this is how we do it and it
1:28:38does you know doesn't use AI like that's which I've seen a little bit of that that's not going to be the the right thing. But if everybody moves together, then we get to this like incredible new place.
1:28:51All right. Awesome, Josh. Thanks a lot.