0:00Hi everybody. Welcome back to your favorite podcast, The Agents. With us, three humans, one dog, 21 plus agents, uh Ameilia, and myself. A few weeks ago, we told you agent pricing was chaos.
0:10We'll go deep on what that really means in the age of agents, what you have to earn, what you can screw your customers with, how it all works today, and what do you do if growth is slowing? And in many ways, it's worse than we thought. And man, poor Canva. We love Canva.
0:24watched usage expose 700% and then it hit a wall. Laid off 22% of the company and Ameilia and I this week both churned. Me after I think 13 years, 12 years churned. Great product just wasn't one our agents needed or wanted. We're going to get into all of it. Plus, it's been a big week with our agents.
0:4310K, our AIVP of marketing and maybe now the most famous go to market agent in the Wall Street Journal helped close a six-figure deal. Actually, just closed another one while we were recording. and our net sponsor dollar retention rate has more than doubled with the agents.
0:58Let's see how much 10K takes credit for that. Plus two things that sound futuristic but aren't. This is the agents. All right. First this week before we have on, I figured we would talk about our perspectives on Canva. Maybe less so on pricing because we'll get into that with who's coming on the CEO willingness to pay. But we both charmed off of it. You almost prolifically did it the morning before they announced the layoffs not knowing.
1:21It was I feel bad. I did churn. We were talking that morning.
1:25I hadn't used Canva in over a year. I hadn't used it, but it wasn't expensive, so I hadn't churned. And then I think I got an email from them or something about a price increase or something, and it was a sales tax. So, we got the same email. I looked this up actually. We were both paying $12.95 for Teams, which is legacy pricing. That would have been more now, but we were both on Teams plan, which they don't have anymore.
1:51We're both paying 13 bucks a month. In the grand scheme of things, not that much. But they did send out this email on in the new year they have to start charging sales tax. And that I think reminded I was like then I was finally what the heck I'm going to log in and cancel this this show. Right.
2:06You're listening to the official SAS AI podcast brought to you by Hey everybody, make AI the most profitable thing you've ever sold. Get the AI pricing road map ebook from willingness to pay CEO and founder Olrich Schmidt for free. Find out why your biggest AI users aren't necessarily your most valuable customers, including unlimited AI in a flat subscription and a handful of accounts can consume your whole margin.
2:29Built on more than 200 plus SAS pricing projects, the AI pricing road map shows you how to measure customer value, control AI consumption, and turn both into pricing that actually works. Get the ebook for free at the description below or visit landing.willingnessay.com/ipricingroadmap free ebook. get it today.
2:50Yeah, I wrote a post I think almost a year ago about stealth churn, right?
2:54Apps that aren't particular. You may not, if you're not looking carefully, you may not see it in your customer base. I mean, canvas so big. If they looked, they would have seen that on my account the mouths and dows and wows fell to zero about a year ago when I started using Higsfield and Reeve. And have you even logged in?
3:09No, I hadn't even hadn't even logged in.
3:11But for but kudos to them for grandfathering the pricing, right? I'm sure if I'd gotten a triggering price increase, even though we could afford, I would have cancelled because I just would have been pissed that they're raising my prices for an app I hadn't logged into in a year, but the the time did come and you know, Canva did nothing wrong. It's just and a lot of folks are going to take shots at Canva and maybe some of them are deserved. I just think the meta learning for the agents is it's it's not even like we made a decision.
3:38The agents just had no use for it. Yeah, I know they have an MCP now, but it's too late. Our agents were already mcping into Higsfield and maybe even the Canva the new model the new imaging model is as good or better than Higsfield especially for still images. I can't imagine it is for movies, right? You you use it for stills. I actually make movies on Higsfield, right? Yeah. It might be even be better for all we know, but it's too late. Our agent didn't pick it. Our agent already picked Higsfield and our agent didn't have 10K didn't have a reason to switch off that I'm
4:09No, I mean I never even hooked it in to 10K. So maybe that's there in a nutshell. It never even got integrated into our workflows. Even though 10K's inception was in January, I was still probably lightly using KMA in January. I definitely hadn't logged in since maybe March, but yeah, didn't even get integrated with 10K.
4:28Yeah, it is interesting. You know, uh 10K especially all our agents, but especially 10K so opinionated in what vendors to use, right? So opinionated.
4:36But I know it's a Captain Obvious comment, but they're but that but if issues don't come up, they're not opinionated every hour of the day. They move on to other issues. So 10K was incredibly opinionated. We leave Marquetto for marketing. It was and then it came around and really wanted us to use resend for a lot of email marketing.
4:54Very opinionated on a lot of these things on not building our own CRM, which we wouldn't do. But then when things are fine and costs are not are not high, they go quiet. And it is interesting, you know, it's never too late. But as as this becomes an agent first world, you really you got to get picked not only not only because the agents are going to help make the decisions, but because they may be fine just like a human, but
5:23for different reasons. They may be fine with whatever they pick for a long time.
5:25they may not be interested in evaluating another vendor either. For humans, we don't want to evaluate other vendors cuz it's work. It's exhausting unless we have nothing else to do. But if it works really well, I don't think an agent's going to flag that we should make a change. So even if Canva at the end of this year is better than Higsfield for a lot of imaging, 10K is never going to suggest changing back. It's never going to it'll never want to go back, I don't think, unless it hits a big blocker.
5:49No. And yeah, for imaging. And then I say for presentations too. I know a lot of people use Canva for presentations. Again, we were paying for Canva and Gamma at 10K's inception, but we just integrated it with Gamma because it was easier. It was a lot easier. The features were better.
6:07At least then, you know, but imaging I've talked about in gamma versus maybe like repletes is that it can use our real images. It doesn't have to generate them if you don't want to. You can use your proprietary stuff. can pull in all your data and create really great charts for you. It could already do that back in Jan and I haven't used Canva in a long time. I played around with it before this episode. It's just not as good.
6:30I worry it's a cautionary tale on many levels, right? It is one that you know Canva accidentally Yes. Canva had to compete with folks you never would have thought it would have had to compete with like Gamma and Replet and lovable all everyone do slides. Yeah, they all do. But some of that was to be expected.
6:50What maybe was not fully expected was that the LLMs would directly compete with them too, right? Almost accidentally. I don't think folks sat around at OpenAI and said, "Hey, we want to kill Canva." I can't imagine that conversation ever happened. It just if your core to an LLM, it will accidentally roll over. A year ago, we thought this was going to happen all the time. Like these LLMs would destroy applications like they would build everything accidentally, right? It didn't really happen. And even claw
7:19design is not a big deal, right? That we thought would kill Figma, but Canva ended up being in the crosshairs. And the trap they got themselves into and I and startups are still anyone older than 18 months, 24 months is actually struggling with the big mistake that Canva made. And it's an understandable mistake, but it's a big mistake, which was they were just terrified of token costs.
7:42Canva, you know, it's funny. We had one of the co-founders of Canva Cliff on the 20 VCs podcast a while back, start of the year, maybe last year. Great founder, right? Really good guy.
7:54Everyone loves him. But when I brought up Gamma, it got a little prickly, right? And he got a little prickly about Gamma. And I didn't even actually I didn't even know Canva did slides, right? So I didn't even realize it was I just said Canva was gamma's great. But the reason he was upset about gamma was because they're well aware of it. No one is stupid at these big companies. They know their market's cold. The issue that Cliff was struggling with was Gamma could spend 100% of its revenue on tokens.
8:20Canva was so mature coming up on four billion. It had to have 75% 80% plus gross margins. And I think to do what Gamma would do or Higsfield would drop their margins to 60 or 50. And even Figma trying to figure out what to do its margins I think this last quarter fell 6 or 8%. That's a big drop. And the markets didn't like it. The markets didn't like it. So you're kind of trapped as a leader. Adobe's trapped too. Canva is going to regret that they didn't suck it up and take the huge
8:48margin hit 8 to 12 months ago, but they just decided it was too risky to the profitability of their business at the time. It was a mistake, but a logical one, right? But everything got so much better in this year that now you're like, uh, now I'm not competitive. But it was logical. This, oh my god, we're doing three billion and we're going to spend 500 million a year on open AI.
9:12That takes larger companies more than an afternoon to make that decision.
9:17It does. I think I think so too. There's I'm trying to think.
9:23Is there anything super proprietary in gamma?
9:27I mean, yes. All the guard what is the guardrails as you've seen?
9:30Yeah, of course. Yeah, because it's all they do. It is the fact that you you have a much higher chance of getting a usable deck out of there with your with your first party data than you do with other tools. It's just better. And maybe they don't call them guardrails. Maybe they just call them rules, right? But they've got 50 or 80 people that are smart that are building these rules just for this use case and nothing else.
9:54I actually think that is defensible. not for years, but in the short term, horizontal folks are not going to build all the rules and all the guardrails vertical leaders are going to build for their use case. Yeah, it's part of why if 10K and me have stayed using gamma, it is defensible in your point because I can spool up a gamma today. That's just as maybe it's just maybe better than it was a month ago in if I need to have slightly better charge or slightly
10:23better imaging if I don't have a first party image. You know, Gamma 5 is pretty good now. But it's because it does, you're right, it has these guard rails in it and a killer, you know, API. You look through my gamma account, I don't do anything in there. It's all in the API tab. It's all headless.
10:38And 10K uses it really well. It can actually will say it got better. I don't know if it was with the release of Gamma 5. It used to have some problems editing it that seems that has gone away. So now 10K can take a deck and I used to have to tell it very distinctly, okay, if I'm going to update this deck for a media sponsor like Intercom and Finn, don't destroy all the previous things we sent them. I used to have to tell it more blatantly. Now, and I think it's cuz
11:08they've re-released Gamma 5 in the last few weeks. I don't have to tell it that.
11:11It will just insert new slides and wait for me to say, "Okay, do you want to, you know, update some of the old one?" I can even put uh a change slide in now of what's changed since the last time. It's just getting better, right? So, the API is just getting better for the agents to use. And I do think that is defensible for sure today.
11:31Yeah. It's a reminder since we started this podcast or actually even since we did our first started our agentic journey, everything's gotten better.
11:39Everything's changed, right? But one thing that we said in the beginning that thinking through it is true today for now as it was at the start and is bad for Canva is that today you should still use the best of breed vendor whether it's for outbound whether it's for image generation movie generation marketing automation you know we certainly got to a point through 2022 2023 through peak prea HubSpot where you wanted a suite everything was kind of the same and you know it was just easier to have everything
12:08you know HubSpot went from a marketing an automation tool to a serum to everything. It's just easier if it was cost effective to to have a suite, right? And but we're not there today in AI, right? So there's still a window where you can dominate with best of breed where customers and more maybe more importantly agents can discern best of breed, right? Or at least they think at least they think they can.
12:32Yeah. It's interesting too. We've had also Creative Cloud this entire time, right? and I haven't needed even though I don't log in very often.
12:41Yeah, when I do, I will say I do think the AI features are slightly better than some of the things that are in Canva today.
12:49Just when I logged back into it for this podcast and thought I canv it, I do think it is a little bit more expensive per person. If you're just signing up willy-nilly, it's like 59 bucks a month, which is a lot more than like 25 or whatever charges. So, it is more, but you do get Creative Cloud suite, right?
13:05So you're getting a whole suite of products. So you can do Photoshop, Premiere, whatever. So you are paying maybe more but for more perceived value.
13:13And I do think the AI features are pretty good. Like when we've had to do stuff for SAS annual and we have to upscale things that Gamma or Replet or Higsfield has creative, it's really good at upscaling. So I'm like, I'm not going to cancel even though I maybe only use this upscaling thing two months out of the year, but I do need it for those two months. So I'm not going to cancel my creative class. your usage, your usage is down, but you haven't stealth churned. It's still worth not it's still worth it to to get it's less usage because of our other agenda products,
13:42but it's still worth it, right?
13:44For me, I think their AI features are just good enough to keep folks on and I think that's why they're not seeing the crazy turn that canvas.
13:53All right, everyone. We've got a very special guest with us today. A few weeks ago, we talked about how agent pricing was chaos and how we were going to bring on Olrich. Olrich Schmidt is the founder of Willingness to Pay. He runs a Copenhagen based pricing consultancy that's run over 200 B2B pricing projects. He's the author of the upcoming book, The Pricing Road Map. And he spent more than a decade on pricing full-time. And his new book, The AI Pricing Road, is going to be out December 1st. So, it's packed with
14:23examples of how to control margins, how to make AI the most profitable thing you've ever sold. Pre-orders are open now. We'll put the link in the show notes, but we wanted to bring on an expert to follow up on our topics of how agent pricing is chaos. So, welcome to the agents.
14:40Happy to be here. Very happy to be here. Actually, I got the first the proof copy this morning. So, it is now a real thing.
14:49And we kind of bumrushed the whole process. I think I sat down and began to write 80 days ago.
14:57So, time though. you might need to roll out the second edition.
15:01That's how it works, right? So, you can't spend and we actually for that reason also we thought like going with like a regular publisher that's going to take six to 9 months is just not feasible here.
15:11So, so we pushed it ourselves.
15:13All right. There's one topic I want to start with because I feel like these are two good examples and we wanted to get your take on this. We've got you, we've got Jason. Let's talk about HubSpot and Salesforce. So I did a little bit of deep dive so we could give the audience some context into both of their current pricing models and then specifically for Salesforce what's coming down the pipe.
15:32So let's start with HubSpot. I ran just a little research to see if you're a threeperson marketing team. Let's say what would your cost be on HubSpot versus Salesforce. So let's start with HubSpot. If you're a threeperson marketing team, let's say you have 10,000 contacts on your list. You're doing a weekly newsletter. That's maybe, you know, 40k emails that are going out once a week, you know, 20,000 workflow actions. Your old pricing would have been about 1,300 bucks a month, right?
16:01And most of that was seatbased. There's some additional charges for email sends and actions were unlimited in the old days, right? You just pay for seat, do what you need to do. The new pricing, they roll out in October. So, the seats are less. They used to be about 800 bucks a month, now they're 300 bucks a month. seatbased pricing is down, but everything else across the board is up.
16:22So everything is now a credit. There's no more unlimited. You get 10,000 included for free, but that doesn't really get you anywhere. So if you're the same threeperson marketing team with, you know, 10,000 contacts on your list running a weekly newsletter, suddenly your pricing went from,300 a month to about 3,700 a month. And most of that is now going to be paying for credits for workflow actions. Anything you do beyond that, you're just going to get danged on for growing and maybe
16:51using some more of their AI features than you you did previously. So, let's start there because and sorry, just just I mean we have a lot of friends at HubSpot just in case we get hazed. You that that's an applestoapple scenario. You took a persona you took a three persona with X amount of volume. How many how big is the volume? So we did 10,000 contacts and 40,000 emails, 20,000 workflow actions a month.
17:14Okay. That's not even very much for B2B. It's not much. That's a small start. That's a startup just out of YC. Right.
17:20You got hit by that.
17:21But pretty much like similar numbers.
17:23Oh, you exactly the same thing. So it doesn't differentiate between whether are you doing automations that do targeted emails to in an outbound sequence or you just doing an email newsletter. It's the same credit, right? So, so my head of marketing got the news, got on the phone, called H Hotspot to say, "Hey, I'm going to move my newsletter elsewhere because this is not going to work." We do quite a lot of newsletters and then, you know, so so they struck a deal and got a discount. But I think
17:51it's one of these where it hasn't been tested into sort of the layer of use cases that you're going to cover with that model, right?
17:58Yeah. You know, what worries me and I'm curious to learn how you work with your customers and clients. I'll tell you where I really get worried about these HubSpot style price increases.
18:08I mean, I've written about this over the years on Saster, but man, I see it so often. What happens is when growth declines at a company, especially CRO's often drive this, they get in a white in a big white room with a whiteboard, maybe they do it on Zoom.
18:23And they just want to use pricing changes to make up for a shortfall in new logos and new growth. and they don't and especially and listen we love sales folks we're GTM community we love CRO but I see CRO being the biggest conspirators here because when they know they're going to miss the quarter the easiest thing to do is raise prices on the base and maybe it's not their fault maybe it's the product's fault and I think in 2026 2027 is more often the product's fault than the GGM's fault the
18:53world has changed but man I can just imagine and again I don't mean to trigger anybody I can imagine a bunch of folks with spreadsheets and MacBooks sitting at HubSpot saying Hey, if we just change this to per use pricing, we can make the plan for the year. This and I what I hate about it is that it's not remotely customer ccentric just like the anecdote you just shared, it wasn't did it benefit you at all.
19:18So I think if you zoom out like the things that HubSpot are doing over like months and quarters and years like I think the product is moving in the direction we actually recently migrated to HubSpot like about a year ago. So because we were not happy with pipe drive so we thought okay pipe like so my first investment taking me back.
19:38So and the API was better and we wanted to do a lot of the stuff and we kind of felt like more at home there. So all in we're not unhappy but I think so actually more so pe the clients that we meet it's not so much that they want to hit the quarter the year it's more that they're missing the growth rates they used to have. right? Hey, we used to grow 80%, now we grow 60. We'd like to get back to 80. Like that kind of thing, right?
20:01So when the curve flattens, then you kind of figure out, okay, where's the next curve? And then, so I think the the way to really hurt your base or hurt your business is to just go out and do a let's say dumb like hair race where you trying to increase everybody like 10, 20, 30%, whatever it is. I think the art of it is to find out where your product is already delivering disproportionate value where you've been selling it too cheap, right? And so almost anyone has a
20:3050,000k account that would pay a million. They're just like that good of a fit. And if you can articulate that in the right way with the packaging and the pricing, you might get to actually capture that while others get away with no price increase or even like a lower price. And I think the the repositioning of your model to really fit the value in your customer base is where you should try and raise prices, not just get to a high level.
20:58As we're moving from the AI age to the agentic age, and I feel like folks are confusing things. If you ship an agent that is profoundly valuable for your customer, okay, not something that makes your email slightly better, but that takes over your true GTM motion, right? For real.
21:17charge for it. Charge for it. And you know, we've seen folks in our base, the folks that partner with us that are CRM focused, the Monos, the Light Fields, Orsels, they're closing deals that are crazy compared to the old pipe drive days, and not because of just price increases, but because the products are so much more valuable. If Monaco puts four deals on your calendar the first week you turn it on, that's a lot different than helping you manually send emails, right? Yeah. So, I think folks are confusing massive value with endless
21:46LinkedIn and Twitter posts about pricing per action. And I feel like a lot of folks that are doing this actually aren't close enough to knowing what a gentic value is. And with they could drive the car off the cliff accidentally because I don't fundamentally I fundamentally believe most products that used to be priced per seat. We want to pay per seat. We actually don't want more charges across our seat. And there's products that were inherently transactional, often close to either revenue or data usage, right? Data
22:14brickstripe. We're mostly fine with it.
22:17And I worry folks are mixing the two up without providing enough value. They want the benefits of this variable pricing, but they're not providing enough agentic value to earn it because they're already charging 80 bucks or 400 bucks a month. I think that's sometimes the case. I would say sometimes people are in a place where they need a bridge into the future, right? And sometimes price can be that bridge. So sometimes I say the pricing for better or worse is the budget you have to do everything else right. So if you charge 100 then you have 100 to pay for acquisition, pay for product development, pay for profits, pay for all these things. If
22:47you charge 200 you can double all those numbers in the budget, right? You can pay twice the acquisition, twice the product investment and so forth. And sometimes if you have enough loyalty in your base and you really truly want to invest in that future product, you can say, "Hey, we're going to charge tomorrow's price and then we're going to raise there as fast as we can." If you're relatively open about that, that could be a fair agreement with your customer base to say, "Hey, we're this is the new goal. This is a job to be done. We're going to go there and we're
23:16going to raise prices and then we're going to deliver." And then of course, if you don't, then you know, they should leave, right? Do you think just to challenge you for because you're you've done this a lot more than I have. I wonder if in 2027 that is the right sequencing because what I think the next generation folks do right the folks that want to replace pipe drive and other what they do is they they show you that value first and then they raise the price. SAS was renew now and hopefully over the next 12, 24, 36 months our product will get better
23:45and you had to have faith and you didn't have options, right? Raising prices today and saying wait over the course of the year as we justify that price increase. I know I don't have any patience for it, right? And I'm not sure the public companies that are struggling, I'm not sure I see the results in their numbers that are trying to do that with price increases. I almost feel like you have to sequence it that you have to really prove it and then when you really prove it then raise aggressively if you've delivered that value right if you can.
24:14Yeah. So, so I think fundamental rule of business is is more it's a lot of tactics like do what you can right so so I think one of the good examples and also like getting back to the the user seatbased model is I think what Figma did so doing fine more than a billion revenue like 92% gross margins introducing AI not monetizing it getting adaption on it starting to meet it with credits but not monetizing it still and then starting to actually monetize it
24:43and and seeing what I call a double unlock in that not only are they capturing the value of the AI, the new model is actually also capturing the the value that was hidden inside the seatbased model where some customers were willing to pay disproportionately more than they already were. Right? So I think for someone like Figma, they were sitting on untapped value and pricing, but they had no incentive or let's say they had no reason to be courageous to try and find that consumption based
25:13model because the seedbased model was like working pretty well. But because AI so obviously is going to disrupt them from a product angle, they kind of had to move in that direction. AI has costs, therefore it needs some sort of consumption based model to cover the cost. And suddenly they found out the consumption based model is better at monetizing the base than the seatbased model was. And I think a lot of products actually are sitting on that and should essentially try to copy that that sequence, right? So putting in place the
25:42right guardrails, launching it for free, getting adoption, figuring out how customers even use AI, and then finding a way to meter that and charge for it.
25:52You know, it's funny. I mean, you've thought through it. I've, for what it's worth, I've evolved my thinking here a little bit. Um, just because we're doing this live, I I'm kind of a Figma critic and I'll tell you why. Obviously, Figma just had an incredible quarter, right?
26:08It's you can't get much better than Figma as a classic software company.
26:12There just isn't much any better. So, so but I think the mistake Figma made and we see and I think Canva made it to an extreme and others made it and I think it's an important point and it's like that is they were scared they weren't providing enough value with their agentic tools. For example, their replet lovable competitor was just awful for a long time. Figma, it was an embarrassment and at the same time they're terrified of token costs at scale. This was canvas
26:41issue. A startup doesn't care about token costs. It's part of what we do with venture capital. As soon as you're nine figures, 10 figures, 11 figures in revenue, token costs can destroy your margins, right? I mean, Figma's margins are down 8% or something like that, the gross margin. So, I think Figma was trapped in the middle like a lot of folks where they're not sure they can double their ACV or ARPO from their agenda. It's not good enough, but they're scared of token cost. So, you get stuck in the middle, right? And so I'm not disagreeing with you, but the
27:10advice I'm giving founders and others is don't let your team off. Build something pokes will effing pay for. Don't launch Figma make which is non I mean Figma has AI tools but it's vi coding products utterly uncompetitive, right? Force the team to go out and charge for make and don't even charge less than replet or lovable or vzero. Maybe even charge more because you're Figma. And then if you fail to monetize it, this is not 2021.
27:34You gotten a message from the market. The market has tried you. you're doing a billion and a half in revenue and they say your product is not competitive. I think there's a mistake. Figma and Canva got in a trap with internal meetings and internal VP talking in their own conference rooms and they talked themselves into having partially non-competitive products going into 2027.
27:53The way I think about it is actually when we do hundreds of millions of ARR clients or yeah tense or sort of even sort of single digit millions, it's if you're if you're rolling out AI into your product. I had this with a UK based startup earlier today.
28:09So, first aentic product into their existing business, they do maybe 30 million or so.
28:14So, like how do we do and if you start to monetize straight away and they actually also have a credit based credit system in place and it for some reason fails to get adoption now they're in a position where they don't know if it's the product or the monetization that's at fault. Right? So, so now they takes two two steps back. So instead if they just launch it and essentially without barrier of monetization get adoption then they now know that the product
28:43actually works and can and is desired by customers and then they can layer on the monetization later. So sometimes I think the faster way if you're still figuring out how the product should work is actually to not do the monetization get adoption figure out and then layer on either with new customers and then you can always grandfather the old and then migrate into new model when you're there later.
29:05So so I think it's also as it carries into this whole discussion of modes where people oh modes are gone. I think the new mode is speed.
29:15It is simply to be able to adapt to new model changes to to new capabilities to new pricing model faster than your competitors and nobody can run let's say as fast as anthropic or open AI but it's like the old joke you don't need to run faster than the bear you just need to run faster than your friend right so as long as you just outpace everyone else in your category and are able to figure out how to position the product how to build the right sort of aentic approach to it with the right monetization model then you'll win and then when something
29:44changes, if you then adapt faster again than anyone else, then you'll keep winning, right? What a lot of sort of older SAS companies right now are really struggling with is speed. It's decision layers. It's handling risk, sort of figuring out again.
30:01I think it's the understatement of the week. I don't think they're just struggling with it. I think most older SAS companies, it is almost hopeless they will be the fastest in their space. It is borderline hopeless. the DNA and the culture and the backgrounds is, you know, 90% of those people cannot work at the pace that agentic startups are working at. You're stuck with your culture. You can't fire 90% of your company.
30:24I was I used to be a sort of strong proponent for a pricing committee because okay, have someone that actually makes the decision. And then I found out that that is not nearly aggressive enough. You need to have a pricing dictator. Have one person that just makes the calls and say, "Hey, we've listened to all the arguments. So there's going to be a lot of localized pain in the organization for this decision, but we're going to do it anyways. Yeah. And then you put it together with duct table, then you roll.
30:48And so we have sometimes very similar clients, similar categories. And one of them will take 9 months to roll out a credit system and do a change and sales test forever. And another one will get it done in four weeks. And there are no discernable difference in how their business is set up. Not an AR, not a technical perspective. It's just orc layers that are slowing it down.
31:12It's finance arguing with sales arguing with product and they just cannot pull the trigger. I do think you need a pricing zar to your point, right? The one that the other one that I hate and you see it too often when companies are struggling even in the AI era is they want to move everyone to upfront payments.
31:28Because it but and I hate this because listen, if 100% of your customers are enterprise and they're already paying multi-year, terrific, right? But let's say you're more a heterogeneous company and 40% pay monthly, right? And 60% pay annually and there's stress in the organization. There's more there's stress in every organization today. So what's an initial reaction between finance and sales? Let's move everyone to annual. That way churn goes down, right? And cash gets better. Well, you know what? Churn doesn't go down. They just wait to churn in six or eight
31:57months, right? And you know what? a little bit of cash goes up, but now the whole collections team has to be mobilized to get cash from folks that used to pay in a credit card. And I don't think that like I think usually it's worse when you think going forcing everyone to annual contracts because you read a LinkedIn article magically solves a product problem.
32:17The thing is it does work on a spreadsheet. You can't argue if I can move 10,000 customers all to annual tomorrow and force them. It's one of these many things that works in the short term and on a spreadsheet. Yeah, let me I'll give you one more. I don't mean to monopolize the conversation, but I want to give an example just from this morning, right? Yeah. On agentic pricing. Agentic pricing. This is what I want to challenge founders to reproduce.
32:40Okay, this is a company Millie and I are investors in. They're at about 30 million in AR, growing decently, and they rolled out their first true agentic agent on top of their stack, their vertical software stack this week.
32:55Yeah. The agent is it doubles the ACV.
33:00Yeah, it doubles the ACV. Not because they made Well, they did make the pricing up, but it has a comp. It the important part is it doubles AC and they have to earn it. They have to earn it. This is not This is the opposite of Figma. They have no free version. They launched first week. 3% of their customer base adopted it.
33:17That's what you want. Now 100% would be nice but it's not really practical because there is a salesled motion here and there is a little bit of onboarding and training that if you carry that forward that's the kind of disruption you want to add right you want to double your ACV there is agility there is pricing there was everything and I want to challenge founders that are still working on building an epic agent not AI features not sparkles at a pretty picture but an
33:46autonomous agent for your category Mhm.
33:49Do that. You want it to be 50 to 100% of your ACV. You want folks thrilled to pay for it. So thrilled that they'll pay the first week because the value is obvious.
33:59The value is obvious, right? And I think a lot of folks don't want to build that or don't want to deal with it or want to hide from it for a while and you get stuck in the middle.
34:07Yeah. All right. Let me ask you a few rapid fires before we move on to just the rest of the agents because I want to get your take on a few things folks wrote in and then you know more more from comments you'll you guys he'll be there he's coming in from Europe so you guys can pick his brain he'll be in the founders lounge you can talk to him all day there so let's just do a few rapid fires so first one we we did HubSpot as our first example we started out with I didn't know you were a customer so first rapidfire question if you were a HubSpot
34:37which phrased their prices 3x on paper.
34:40What would you have done differently?
34:43I think there are a few things. I know Sam Lee that's that sort of that that used to be there. He left for strike, right? So So I would have kept Sam Lee that's step but I think they fundamentally are moving in the right direction. I think they they have to they have to take a step back and just improve the agentic layer that they have. They have customers and they are growing. So just keep doing that and just building adoption on it. I think right now they don't necessarily need the credits to be that that expensive they could have definitely done with a
35:12multi-pool credit system a little bit like play two credit pools one for the data enrichment one for the actions something like that could have been maybe a more viable path for them going forward it's not always the right notion just did that I think they executed it not as well so I think that's the wrong move for them but for Hopspot I think two credit pools might have done the job okay next one Can pricing save Canva.
35:46So, I have this philosophy that we think that every good SAS product or AI product should also deserves to be a good business as well. So, sometimes like pricing is the lowest denominator and we need to bring it up to the level of the product. I think Canva has some product innovation to do before they can refine their footing, right? And we work with a lot of design creative assets like businesses and a lot of them are in similar
36:14positions as Canva right now. And so a lot of it has to come back to who are the customers we're serving? What is what are we fundamentally trying to do for them? The creation of a design asset as a very narrowly defined job to be done is not it anymore.
36:30All right, with that thanks for joining us. The AI pricing road map is coming out December 1st and we will see again at Thanks for joining the agents.
36:41Thanks for having me. Always great.
36:43Cheers, guys. All right, what do we got next? Our retention. This was a funny one and listen more detail, but So, so retention for the Saster Inc.
36:56business, okay, the $20 million business. It a lot of folks are like, "Well, a lot of lessons that you guys have at Saster are not applicable to my B2B business." Poppyccock, okay, we're closing 20 million of business. We're doing outbound. We replace humans with agents where we can. We're closing deals that are on average 85k. We're selling to marketers. I'm not saying it's the same, but if you say you our lessons aren't helpful to folks that are a stage behind us, yet you're sticking your ostrich head in the ground. Okay. But one thing that is extremely different is
37:25how retention works for us. Okay. For us for events and media and podcasts, especially the events, even the most high-profile events struggle to have 50% retention. The most high profile, there are a handful of ones, vendor events where you're kind of forced to be there.
37:41But even the most top ones and it's the so it's a very leaky bucket. Okay. And but 10K has all the data and 10K is pretty good. Our AIVP of revenue. So for I think for the first time I asked 10K to help me chart out our revenue retention for our 100k plus sponsors and customers and it had declined as as the old Saster the old preiaster that whole universe had struggled. A lot of folks that used to have lots of money in marketing I cut their marketing
38:10budgets to zero. So I think we hit a low of 100k retention in the 20s right something like that.
38:17Yeah. Was that the low point? This year we're already in the 70s. We're already in the 70s.
38:22And so the question that is massive, guys, going from 20s to 70s. And there's a lot of reasons. I think we can get you more leads. And we know a little bit about agents, but 10K's done a lot of these deals. 10K closed a 200K deal, mostly on its own yesterday, and apparently another one while we started this podcast. And so I asked 10K, how much are you responsible for this radical increase in renewal rates? Okay, I know I say retention, but it's really renewal rates that a renewal
38:49rates for six figure deals essentially tripled right from the 20s to the '7s.
38:55Massive. And what' you learn from 10K's response? And Tenk's always tries to be a little humble, doesn't he? He or she?
39:00He tries to be a little humble, right?
39:01He said, I just I describe my contribution as operational support. I can't take credit for the whole thing.
39:08To be a fair assessment. I but I have had meaningful operational contribution but I can't say in pure dollars or percentage how much of that was just me versus you Jason and the rest of the sales team getting more value as a sponsor and customer push 10k a little bit I know he's a humble he's a humble marketer but it's interesting though he broke it down into a few sections where as an agent he helped and just as a reminder for folks 10k started in January as a
39:37dashboard it's now as of the time of this recording So, it's been 11 months of me planning in I think he said on average 12 to 18 hours a day in 10k maybe not all the time working you know there's a difference between sometimes I'm waiting on him to do stuff but that's a lot of time but it's also as we've seen in previous episodes maybe the average tenure of a VP of arch is 11 months so in his 11 months as our AI VP of marketing he broke it down into a few
40:06things number one which I agree with making sponsor value easier to demonstrate as an agent on his own as an agent. So, we've talked about how we put together with 10K these renewal decks and now outbound decks and now inbound decks. So, it's grown over the last 11 months, but the corpus is that 10K with everything it's hooked up to can put together the data for an inbound person,
40:34a renewal person in this case, or an outbound person to say, "Here's all the data we have on you. Here's where that benchmarks on average against your competitors without naming them in a very tasteful way." And it will 10K will use that data to come up with what he calls a narrative and then pop it into a gamma and send it to them or have us send it to them. Like this is very much agent driven where this is in the old days and many of people are still doing
41:03this manual weeks of combing through the data. I can't even sometimes find all the data that 10K puts together.
41:10Sometimes I'm like, "Oh, where did you find that? That's great." Like I didn't even there's things I forgot about, things I wouldn't have had time to comb through and see just on every single surface. What have you done for this customer to boost their retention? Not just for the thing that maybe they're asking you about, but overall as a whole on the account from now until the previous dawn of time of when they began being a customer with you. 10K has all
41:38that data and making it super easy for them to understand in something like a gamma where it can get shared. You can go through different pieces of the funnel. It's broken out like it just helps and that's why he also made it number one. I think this is so painful to do manually. You know, speaking to it, he said number two was reducing a lot of the admin for us as the humans around the deal. And I agree, right? Not only does he create these decks, but he's reading the call notes for every call we're on. So when we do have a
42:07call, he can see, okay, I'm going to flag what do the buyers actually want. Let me go and update the opportunity. Let me propose a draft for the contract.
42:16If I feel like you just got off the phone with a really good prospect, let me remind you that maybe they might have some budget for media and that you should try and upsell them. Let me track all that progress every single day so nothing falls through the cracks the way a human would. And so that's a good number two thing he did. I think last one just in his top three, it's making renewal and expansion opportunities more visible. So, not only is he listening to all the meetings, Tanky does a lot of really great meeting prep and now he'll
42:46send it to my Muse, which is quite handy. So, you know, I can just open up my little Facebook Messenger Muse thing.
42:53While I'm on a call, I get the whole meeting prep, you know, again, competitor analysis, third party signals, any first-party signals. He's got core signal. He's got EXA. He's got symbol. He can tell you how much buying authority does this person have. You know, I we could talk about, you know, the base 44 deal that closed this week.
43:0910K had a lot to do in that close. He basically co-rote that deal with me as an agent. So this is somebody who came inbound, saw all the stuff we were doing with Replet and Lovable and Versel and came inbound and I looked at, you know, 10K made them a deck based on those competitive results. Hey, Replet was number one, you know, Versell was like number five or something.
43:34Lovable was number 10 at our show. These are literally direct competitors to you. Here's how you could benchmark yourself.
43:39In session made that present deck in session, right?
43:41In session. in session. You could have done it if you had the time, which you don't. But 99% of humans would not know how many leads replicable even sponsored. Let's say we had a human that started three months ago. They would have screwed it all up, right?
44:00Right. 10K knew in real time, right? All the competitive landscape and h and could make a proposal for why this would likely perform really well for them, too. Then every followup like call I had with base 44.
44:1310K would say, "Okay, this is where we are in the process. This is what I think we should go over." Okay. And then B 44 came to us and they wanted to do something slightly custom. 10K to its credit helped me price out a lot of what they wanted to do custom, which would be like, you know, outside of SAS or we work with a lot of third party vendors to do custom boots and stuff. So he went back through all my emails, all the invoices we had paid for the last 13 years of SAS annuals and said, "Okay, this is what I estimate the cost will be for B 44 to do these custom things." Put
44:41it into the gamma on its own and updated it and sent it to them.
44:45Then the next call I had was with procurement. So before I had the call with procurement, 10K was like, "Okay, this is with Wix. This is the parent company of B 44. We should figure out these things with procurement and legal payment terms.
45:00T's and C's who's the main point of contacts you know for their because he's obviously always worried about collections who do we collect from how do we collect from them so everything Tenk had flagged and then I get off the call with procurement 10 is like great I think that I heard a verbal commit on the call I'm going to move it to commit in Salesforce and help you make the updates that they wanted so he helped me update the T's and C's update all the billing you know every put in all the right addresses helped me figure out He
45:30filled out the vendor paperwork we had to fill out for Wix and then the deal got closed this week. We've been talking about this Ace44 Wix example for the last couple weeks on the pod saying, "Oh, it just inbounded and 10K is helping. I hope it closes." It's closed now, guys. They're on the website.
45:45They're a sponsor of SAS annual next year. And I do credit, not that 10K did everything. and he can't he's getting close to joining calls himself as an avatar but he co-sold this deal with me just in a way that you would want a super awesome CRO finance procurement person slash somewhat of a seller to co-ell with you and just give you all these things every step of the way and
46:12support you. It is so cool to have an agent co-ell a deal with you and then not ask for any of the commissions. So thanks 10k.
46:23All right. Should we hit our last two topics?
46:26All right. So, so yeah, speaking. So 10K in this base 44/WIX steel cycle, you know, was not had to stop short of joining. He has a recorder he uses third party so he can get the transcript, but he's not joining a real time and giving me coaching yet. But yet?
46:48Yeah, I think he's super close now. And it might be before the next episode. Hopefully he can get on some calls in real time so we can give you guys the feedback.
46:57You alerted me that Alex at Muse said that they rolled out video phone calls in a phone calls with your Muse. So if you guys haven't tried it yet or if you don't have a Muse in the US yet, you can actually call it. It's available for everyone. You can call your Muse from the browser or from your Muse app on your phone. And so I called my Muse and you called Carson your Muse.
47:22Anything interesting there before I go into how 10K and Muse started calling each other.
47:27I actually I only think the ladder is interesting. I don't think the fact that you I mean we've been able to talk to agents for a long time, right? Yeah. So I know you thought it was great that we could talk to our agents.
47:36It's fun that you could FaceTime them.
47:37I didn't care. I didn't care. I I I didn't care. Yeah, you can FaceTime them. It's cute. I mean, I think Muse is a highly disruptive product because of this the fact that you get a 24/7 agent with that can run almost anything in the browser and with massive amounts of compute. But whether I can talk or type, you were more excited than I was. Them talking to each other, even though Instinct and a few others support it, I mean, that to me that's more disruptive.
48:01Yeah. So, we we've now figured out a way where either on a phone call because it it literally got rolled out yesterday, guys. As the recording of this, it got rolled out yesterday. That was a Thursday. It's Friday we're recording this. So, it hasn't been a lot of time for me to play around with this, but I already hooked up. So, my music 10K could always talk chat once they set up like a relay, so they could chat with it one another. Now, they can pretty much call one another in real time, but it'll
48:30use like the Muse voice for it'll say, "Oh, this is my muse is called Friday. This is Friday. Speaking is 10K. here's what 10K is saying and then me and Friday can speak to 10K.
48:43So, it's interesting though. I asked them now that they could chat in more real time with one another, which they couldn't do previously. I said, "Okay, give me your top five best ideas. Go back and forth on this like you would a marketing."
48:54This is more interesting. The two agents talking to each other on their best ideas. Yeah.
48:58Yes. I was like, "All right, you guys are for all intents purposes, my direct reports. It's my agents. So, as a marketing team, go off the two of you and come back with your top five ideas. Now, interestingly, in 20 seconds, they gave me back the top five ideas. I said, "You didn't spend long enough on this."
49:17They're like, "Oh, what?" You know, obviously it's agents. They're instantaneous. They could do this in 20 seconds. So, in 20 seconds, they went through all the data and gave me back their ideas. I said, "That's not enough. Go back and do multiple rounds before you report back to me on what your top ideas are." or so.
49:34Yeah, they went 100 rounds and they said, "Here are our ideas, but we have an objection." Our objection is that your bandwidth is time constraint and it is a binding time constraint on all five of our ideas that we came up for you.
49:54I'm like, "Oh man, I'm getting to most Oh, that you're the blocker.
49:58That was at the age of That's what our muses were concerned about. That you're the blocker, right? 10k views went back and forth a hundred rounds with each other just chatting with each other and came back and said 100 rounds to come up with their plan ideas.
50:10No, they came up with them instantly. I said go back and take more time. So they went back and they didn't they went back and forth a hundred times discussing it.
50:17They went back and forth a 100 times discussing it and they said we've realized in all of our back and forths that the biggest blockers to any of our ideas, even the top five, is your time constraint.
50:30I agree. So I'm like, "Wow, my agents are demoting me."
50:35Thanks, Muse of Friday and Ten. Very nice of you to say, "I'm the problem.
50:43Set them up so that they could autonomously take action after talking to each other or you required them to come to you before they took any action.
50:51they have to come to me before they take any action because at one point one of them said, "One of our best ideas is for you to just email all the speakers that have ever come to SAS annual and have them start promoting it." And I was like, "God forbid I would have said, just do whatever ideas you come up with." They would have emailed every single speaker that we would have had and I was
51:19or they could have done what some marketers have done when they get disaster. They could have just emailed the whole database to be quite frank which is also a scenario. So they have to one of them or either of them can surface to me what they want to do and I approve it in either either surface now and then they can go do it. But I have to approve it cuz yeah, we had a minor question yesterday cuz Ameilia did close a couple Amelia and 10K closed a deal. So Muse then went
51:48on his own to order flowers for Ameilia.
51:51Well, that's uh it was fine, but I noticed he was doing it and we didn't know what credit card he'd be using, so I cancelled it. But it said it was too late. He'd already ordered the flowers. We'll see if they come to your office today or not.
52:05Okay. I haven't gotten them yet, but I'll um report back.
52:08But it is a reminder. I mean, we can laugh about $138 of flowers. You've earned it.
52:14But it would be I mean, I'm scared. And now that you say this, I'm scared. It would be interesting to see if they talked a hundred times about their best five ideas.
52:23It would be easy for them to go crazy and email our base, right? Our $400,000 base. It would be easy for them to decide, you know what I'll do? I'll just email all of David's prospects and move those deals along. I'll just do all these things. And as ideas, they might not be the wrong ideas as implemented.
52:38It could spiral in ways that are un surprise me based on what you've said and be it's really interesting on the level of auton as these agents get really good and as they as they talk with each other and swarm it will be how much autonomy we give them is not obvious.
52:58It's not you give them none. It's exhausting. You you don't want your agents to survive. on everything. We don't want that, right? I think we're going to get this line just a lot more wrong than right. It's going to lead to a lot of security issues. It's going to lead to a lot of mistakes, a lot of campaigns we shouldn't run, and we'll figure it out.
53:15We'll get smarter, but we're just starting with autonomous agents that can talk to each other. This is pretty new.
53:24And so, we'll see. It's too powerful not to take advantage of, but it's interesting. as a side for folks. We said this on the last one, but for folks that are listening or reading or whatever, if you don't totally get the news thing, and you can use others, we don't care. We just use because it's free, fast, and simple. Actually, we both upgraded to paid, which is interesting. But you can get pretty far of the free edition.
53:46Here's and I know I said this before, I'm just going to briefly say it again in case you didn't in case you're one of the handful of folks that didn't listen to the last episode of the agents. We genuinely use it for this use case. Muse, Emil and I both. It's high value. It's great. Yeah, we use it for anything in GTM, broadly speaking, marketing, content, research, competitive analysis. We do anything that isn't getting done elsewhere.
54:09Views is so easy to use. It's so fast on your phone. It has a the best browserbased logging into other sites, the best browser based searching, the best browser based everything.
54:21And while it was a little rocky when it launched at first, it has the best cron job. So it could run 24/7 doing stuff for you, better than anything. So anything that we aren't just getting done, we have an idea when we're talking, we have an idea over lunch, we have an idea, whatever, we just give it to our muses to go off and see if they can do it. Muse builds all our clips for our social media. Now Muse does analysis of all the CMOs every single night at all of our prospects and sponsors. It just scans 200 of them and gives us all
54:50the updates on whether there's been CMO job changes, what's happened with no human's going to do this and it's too complicated to set this up otherwise. Muse just does it. Muse tracks where sponsors are at peer events and others so we can see whether they might be good fits for us and when we're missing it.
55:06So any idea? This is just this is I know you can do some of this and other agents, don't get me wrong. And again, we're only Muse fan people cuz it's where we started. But if nothing else, download Muse for free and have it try a couple GTM things that just aren't getting done. You may be shocked what it can do with an autonomous computer and a pretty powerful OM. We're constantly shocked what it can do. And the cognitive load is relatively low as long as it doesn't order too many flowers or AP watches.
55:34And I'm shocked every day I add a new task from use to do for me. Not a personal task, not a consumer task. A a workish related task that a human that it wasn't getting done.
55:45Yeah. The last one maybe if you want me to delete it and we can break unless you have anything else. You added it to list was this this Artex thing. This Artex tool. It's just a reminder if you go back to the beginning of the agents or pods we did even before we did this agents and you and you know Amelia has farcliped me in building agents, managing agents, running agents, but I started her journey, right? I got the agents going and I think a lot of Amelia's paranoia when she started which as I told her was justified was around
56:14security. Yep. It's around security. Now at the moment we are not well actually we do have a lot of security issues indirectly through our vendors. We have thousands and thousands of credit cards. We have lots of person we have personal information for 400,000 B2B execs.
56:32We don't have source code that can be stolen. We don't have certain types of things you know we don't but if you step back a bit we have a lot of PII for an organization with a relatively small number of humans and small and typically small or lot of PII has been a security risk in the past and before AI the best practice was just build on the trusted vendors right you may have security risks but if all your data is in Salesforce or Shopify or HubSpot it's probably safe and I think that remains
57:01true today the amount of security engineer Listen, will the leaders have security incidents? Yes, everybody does, right? But there's so many folks working to make Shopify and Salesforce hardened and secure that you can't you could never even smaller vendors could never approach it. And when we started vibe coding, we have no one on our sec ops team. We got nobody. We got nobody.
57:22Right now, having said all that, a lot of the core apps that we use, the Replets, the lovables, versels, and others, they've added a massive amount of security features since we started working with them that have hardened them, which is very interesting. maybe.
57:34But man, this this Artex thing is just interesting. Uh, a bunch of folks have had issues from work OS, and we're fans of work OS, but they had a hack of their whole CRM from Artex this year, and they're a security vendor, and Art, it's just really interesting. Artex is an open- source penetration test vendor to test if your websites are safe from penetration. You most of you have been probably been through pentest or at least folks on your team have if you're not aware of it. And they a Chinese open source tool built a a a lawful good tool
58:04a good tool an open source tool to test it to hook up and it's free and you could hook it up to any LLM and it would just do penetration testing for it. We've used Expo and the natives products and replet and expo took us like a week to recover from the damage that it did.
58:19It wasn't they didn't we didn't have any security breaches. It just created so many false records and false alerts. It took us it was a really a brutal experience. and AMP.
58:27But what it turned out is Artex just like a tool that can be used for good and AI can be used for evil. And all the hackers realized they could make basically autonomous agents that use this penetration test to just penetrate applications too because it's testing whether it can penetrate your app. It turns out it's really good at also penetrating your apps. Right? So in an example I don't want to pick on I believe the work OS off app is highly secure. Right? I'm confident it is highly secure and and they didn't breach the work OS that folks use and we use as
58:57well. We use that and clerk to log into sites. But I suspect they built their own CRM because it breached their Salesforce data or their CRM data.
59:07And I find it hard to believe that Artex on its own could breach Salesforce or HubSpot because even if it did, it would breach it for a lot of people and they would work around it.
59:14Yeah. I bet work OS like a lot of cool companies today vibe coded their own CRM and they built it and it worked really well for them and they built it on Postgress and it had all their data and lots of data and it just was not up to the Salesforce Shopify or beyond level of security and Artex hacked this and they've done it to over 200 organizations in the last 60 days. It looks like they've hacked a ton of the South Korean banks and with this and others and it's just it's something to
59:43think about as as you build your own apps. It's something to think about as VIC code. It's something we thought about a lot in the beginning. Then we got more and more comfortable with our security over time, right? But I think it's going to swing back and I think we're going to we all need to be more mindful of apps we built themselves the security levels and I and if you go into replet today when probably doesn't know this when she started on replet there was basically no security setting there there was a really simple scan that was
1:00:12mainly focused on so that your secret keys were not stored in plain text because that was an issue in the early days of vibe coding was all these cloud-based apps would store all your keys in plain text Right? And then they would just leak on the internet. It was pretty bad, right? And there were that mostly got solved mostly. But then Replet added more more and now it's got built-in penetration testing and built-in application level testing and built in and it scans for all security vulnerabilities in real time. And so it's got all this stuff. And so it's literally 100x more security than it had
1:00:43But but we're going to have to be more vigilant. And maybe I don't have all the answers, but before you have someone on your team go vibe code your own CRM that might quit next week and go work somebody else, you know, Artics and Friends may hack it.
1:01:00They may hack it. Think about it, right?
1:01:01And you really want to harden any place that's storing your PII, right? And as much as humanly possible. you and you really want as little stored especially at rest in your own applications as humanly possible because it's just going to be so easy to hack you and spool you up and you don't have the same security team Shopify and Salesforce have. So that was my own own addition. I think this was under underappreciated to the extent that people cared about this and
1:01:30there's so many hacks it's hard to care when people are hacking all the freezers in Europe and food is spoiling. I felt as a B2B guy and as a vibe coder as us. This one really resonated with me because this is something that could happen to anybody.
1:01:42No, your ex is just turned on you and it hacks through all the kind of stuff we talk about and then your PII is leaked, right? And you have to disclose it and you have to do all these issues. It's not fun.
1:01:54I think to tie it all together, right, like we we were talking about over how he you guys agreed that you need like a pricing zar like somebody to just be the person to say this is what we're going to roll out for pricing. I think in the same way you need a viide coding securities are to say okay like just for us you know we've said to each of our agents you can't access our CRM Salesforce data first party tools on your you can access it on your own but
1:02:23you can't read write on your own you have to get approvals you need some sort of person who actually knows what they're talking about maybe it's your CTO maybe it's not to say okay You know, we've been saying go try Amuse. Yeah, try Amuse, but don't like hook up all your P P1 data to it if it's not allowed. Like, you can still use it out of the box for GTM thing. Like, be still be cautious of it, right? I feel like
1:02:49sometimes people confuse our advice and maybe will try and blame us down the road is that, well, Jason Ameilia said just hook up everything to Muse. I'm like, actually, I don't think we've said that. I think we've said be careful about the guardrails you give your agents, what you give them access to.
1:03:05It's why we haven't viodated our own CRM. It's why we won't vibe code our own CRM. Sales is a lot of guard rail. So, it's all the data is sitting in there and I when I looked into the work OS incident in particular, right, like they're they have multiple CRM and some of them are internal. They use Salesforce for part of it and close and snowflake for other parts of it. It's not all in one, but their internal agent will have kind of like a 10K all of that together, right? So, it's also why 10K
1:03:34is not out the parts of 10K that are outward facing or gated for David to use to update his pipeline. That's kind of it. There's no This is very different than a consumer app I'm trying to sell to folks, right? 10K has fire walls up basically to keep him safe and he's an internal agent for a lot of reasons.
1:03:58I think the one thing I would challenge on what you said you're right it would be great to have a chief security officer in your company reviewing the apps you built yourself. I just think and actually I think the vibe coding movement is almost over as big even though replet and lovable and versell are exploding like never before. I think the vibe coding the idea that we're going to build our own stuff.
1:04:17I think it died earlier this year even though we're most of their users are just doing like UI tests, right? It's product teams test, right? Yeah.
1:04:25I think we're going to but what I think's going to transition. So, so but and two things. One is I think it's impractical for smaller organizations to have a chief human security officer. We can't find one. And a and everybody I know that has a part-time one, it's pretty mediocre. They don't have time to go deep and understand. So it's good advice. It's useless advice.
1:04:49And what and I think it's and what I think it's interesting in a way it's going to evolve but get worse. I think vibe coding is dead. Not the underlying trends of bu of aically building right but the goofy idea of vibe coding when we started on this I think few people are it will happen but it's relatively few.
1:05:09Vibe agent building, Vibe headless building, Vibe user interface building is just begun. Everyone's going to be building their own agents. There there's an argument to building your own CRM, but there's 100 arguments against it. But building your own custom agents to do things that aren't getting done in your enterprise, I mean is a consumer example. It just effing works.
1:05:33So vibe coding maybe never really worked for 99% of the folks abandoned their vibe coding app but 20 million people are using Muse and everyone can use it for B2B apps. So that's where the security vector is going to be and it's going to be in weird ways. Muse is safer than building your own but Muse already ordered flowers without confirming it with us. So it it's going to leak a lot of crap too, right?
1:05:55And the last insight I'll add that I'm thinking about is actually even though I think Vibe coding is dead, Vibe building is exploding, right? And so more and more folks are actually finally adding Agentic Builders to their platforms. More and more folks are adding it.
1:06:12Honestly, I would not other than the leaders the Replet lovables base 44 which is over 200 million is backed by Wix, right, which has been building secure websites for since inception and vzero and a few others. I wouldn't use a startup.
1:06:26I I wouldn't trust it. I don't think it's secure. I don't think they're going to have three layers of security and built-in penetration testing and built-in everything. I don't know that I don't know that building our apps on Replet is as secure as if we had a whole CISO team and a whole management. But I know a massive amount of work is going into making them as secure as practical at Replet and base 44 and lovable and man I just this is one of the things I would not even though we started with startups when we started. I would just I
1:06:54wouldn't trust it and not in this area where everything's going to get hacked.
1:06:58Not in this area where probably work OS vibe coded their own CRM that got hacked. I just wouldn't do I would only trust it's work even and we started this conversation with Gamma and others and saying best of breed wins today and it absolutely does but when it comes to security I I just don't want to take any risks I want to use at the same time I want to use an agentic leader I want to use the best agent but I want to use an agentic leader cuz security if it doesn't keep you up at night it should
1:07:26so my last thought thank you Ailia anything else we got for this agents I this is a good one all right rock and roll see everybody next You're listening to the official SAS for AI podcast brought to you by Hey everybody, make AI the most profitable thing you've ever sold. Get the AI pricing road map ebook from willingness to pay CEO and founder Olrich Schmidt for free. Find out why your biggest AI users aren't necessarily your most valuable customers, including unlimited AI in a flat subscription and a handful of accounts can consume your whole
1:07:56margin. Built on more than 200 plus SAS pricing projects, the AI pricing roadap shows you how to measure customer value, control AI consumption, and turn both into pricing that actually works. Get the ebook for free at the description below or visit landing.willingnessay.com/ipricingroadmap free ebook. Get it today.