0:00All right. So, this is going to be a movie discussion about the new Nathan Fielder, Elizabeth Holmes documentary called You Can See Everything. This is full of spoilers. So, if you haven't seen the movie, if you don't want spoilers, don't watch this. This is for people who have seen it and want to react with other people to the thing. Except for Sam hasn't seen it.
0:27And I I gave him out. I said, "You don't have to get spoiled, but you want to get spoiled."
0:31I want to be spoiled. I'm a grown man. I cannot stand when people say, "I don't want." It's like, "Dude, just tell me everything that happens. Please."
0:37Well, Nathan Fielder himself, I was reading an interview and he said he read some study. They had two groups of people, one that were spoiled and one that was unspoiled and they watched the movie and the enjoyment of the movie was higher amongst the spoiled group than the unspoiled group. So, he's like, maybe there's something to it where people actually like it more when they kind of know what's coming.
0:56So, what's the premise here? I all I know is that Nathan Fielder is like a Sasha Baron Cohen like character where he's silly and satirical. He had a show where he would prank people, but this seems serious. Well, we should lay the groundwork. So Sam hasn't seen the movie. Me and Diego went and saw it last night, but we didn't talk to each other afterwards. We got out at midnight, went home, and then Ben, I think you're more of a Nathan Fielder fan. Like you've watched Have you Ben, have you watched like Nathan for you and the rehearsal like fully or partially or what?
1:25Yeah, partially. But I would definitely I'm a fan of his craft.
1:28All right. So Sam, your question is what's the premise of the movie? So the premise of the movie is 34 days before Elizabeth Holmes was going to go into prison. So she post it's it's post all the scandal after she was already convicted. Now 34 days away from going into jail and she's got two little kids and she's got her not husband technically, I think fiance.
1:50They're not married because she owes hundreds of millions of dollars in restitution. So, they didn't want to get married and combine their finances, but they have two kids. And so, they he calls her his wife, even though it's fiance. All right. So, she's 34 days away from going in and they they contact A24 about doing a movie together documenting her beforehand. Nothing comes of it. Nathan Fielder finds out about this, jumps on the opportunity, moves in with her in her house, tiny tiny house on the beach in Delmare, and
2:20lives with her for 34 days and then for the next 3 years continues to like pursue the story in complete secrecy until it debuted at a random film at the Tellide Film Festival a few months ago and surprised to everybody. It was unbelievable. The reviews coming out of were unbelievable. Now the movie is the top like the top rated movie I think on letterox letterboxed Rotten Tomatoes and like movie critic.com or whatever like some other services has the highest rating
2:49across all three of any movie. It's the first documentary that's favored to win best picture and I think it had like a blowout like block you know um box office opening weekend basically like I saw someone say that Nathan they're like I don't know if this is possible for a documentary but Nathan deserves best actor
3:09okay that's what that's what Nathan would do you say something to him and he just goes okay I don't and I also saw uh I think it was uh what's the director Nolan Uh what's his um Oenheimer uh but what's his what's his full name?
3:25Um Lance and he I think I think it was him and this was um on stage at a conference years ago and he was talking about how Nathan Fielder is amazing and that his technique for telling the story is amazing. The way that he uses angles like he was complimenting him as a director when everyone thought of him as a gag guy. And then someone reposted this and they're like he was not joking.
3:46He was being serious. And if you see the new movie, you see exactly what he's talking about because it appears as though was there like some ways that the camera was working that helped tell the story.
3:55Yeah. I mean, most of the movie is shot like Sam, move your face all the way up to the camera. Most of the movie is that close. Yes. Is that close? Which kind of goes into the idea of you can see everything. I mean, and also she has this intense eye contact. Like she doesn't blink. And you know, they say like, you know, the eyes are the window to the soul. And so here you are. You're that close with her. You see her eyes that wide open and yet you walk away having for me at least no idea how to feel
4:24about her. It's like I saw everything and I know less than I knew at the beginning. I don't I don't know what to think.
4:29So tell me I I have questions about the voice. I have questions about if you think she did it, but where do you want to start?
4:3430 second summary of the movie. So he moves in when they're you know when she's getting ready to go to jail. And first he's literally like kind of almost like a director. He's wearing his headphones. He's behind the corner. He's like trying to stay out of the shot. So first he's just like fly on the wall trying to observe them and then by the middle and end he's now like one of the main characters in the thing because it's like he's a part he becomes sucked into it. So the the way the movie works is it shows her before she goes to jail and he's trying to figure out like is
5:02she a good person or a huge manipulator like is she misunderstood or is she a master manipulator? That's a good way of putting it. Then it shows okay so that that's like the first kind of like half of the movie. It's like her them together beforehand and he's trying to figure out who she is. He's trying to figure out did she It's not really did she do it, but he's trying to understand like her her POV. Like did you do you think you did something wrong? Why do you think you're going to jail? And she's like I don't know.
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6:30So, she's going to jail for defrauding investors, not for because she raised billions of dollars. uh not billion, I don't know, she's like 500 million.
6:39Okay. She raised $500 million on this premise that she can create a blood test that uses barely any blood and it's revolutionary and you can go to CVS and get for $5 and it tells you on the spot or or prick of blood. So, a drop of blood basically would go into her her magic machine called the Edison. And she was this great inventor of this machine that would revolutionize the way the medicine's done because you could run this huge battery of tests, like hundreds of tests or whatever on just a tiny bit of blood instead of going and
7:07getting huge blood draws. And if people could do that with just a tiny bit of blood, they would get tests more often.
7:11We would find, you know, problems before they, you know, got too far and we would be able to test for way more things. And like somehow that was supposed to be really good. Now, if you've watched the TV show and other things like that, you've read the book Bad Blood, you know, basically what happened was the Ed Edison machine pretty much didn't work.
7:28I think it could only do like 12 or 13 tests out of the like hundred it claimed. And that they would take the blood and they would try to go they would be like, "Oh, the blood the machine's not working. So, today you got to go get more blood drawn." And they would go run it to a a real machine that like was, you know, older machine, get the test and pass it off as their own.
7:45And she basically was telling investors that this worked. She was telling the public that this worked. She was telling partners like CVS or Walgreens that this worked, but it didn't really work.
7:54And she denies this. But what's the denial? Is the denial the machine could have worked if you given me more time?
8:00So the there's a key scene in the thing where it's like he's like reading her quote. He's like, "You said the fact is that we invented a machine that can do any test on blood and that's amazing." And then she's like, "Yeah." And he's like, "But that wasn't a fact.
8:20The machine couldn't do that." She's like, "It could." And he's like, "Well, like in the future it could." And she's like, "The way the machine works is you put some blood in a cartridge, it goes in the machine, it goes to the cloud, the cloud will ask what test you want, and it can any test that you want. Now, the machine would be able to run that test."
8:44And then he's like, "But it couldn't do all the test." He's like, "Well, we had to do the chemistry for each of those individual tests." He's like, "Ah, so like you were kind of saying it's it's capable of running all these tests, but it couldn't do it now." And she kind of avoids the question. He's like I believe what I said. It's that's what She doesn't admit any wrong.
9:09And he's like, "But you see how that's confusing, right? Like when you say it can, people think that it can do it right now." and you're saying that it can. She's like, "It can." And she looks at him like kind of crazy. And then, you know, and they're and also they're restarting Theronos while she's going to jail. They're like pitching investors and recruiting a team to like do it better now that they have AI. They're like trying to do it again. And she's like, "So, okay, that's one whole part of it. Second part of it is, but for the record, she has never admitted to doing anything wrong.
9:36She's confused as to why she's going to jail."
9:40Like, I don't know. And he's like, "Did you ever have you like, you know, you lie? Hey, did you lie? She's like, I've never lied. He's like, you've never lied. You never been to a party and said, I've been like, I'm not feeling good. Can't come. But first, she's first the first first he's like, you haven't lied. She's like, I don't believe I have. I've always tried to tell the truth. Maybe when I was a kid. He's like, so since the age of 18, you've never lied. She's like, I thought you meant like the types of things I'm accused of. And then like cuts, right?
10:09So, like one weird thing is it's he's not actually trying to get to the bottom of the thing. It's not like he's not trying to litigate the case. He's trying to figure out who is this person and was she is she what we think she is? Is she misunderstood?
10:24And then the way the movie plays out, the best way I could describe it is I would say you leave more confused as to what the truth is, I think. Is that fair, Ben? Would you agree with that or no?
10:36Yeah, I think I think you leave more confused, but Yeah. But you also leave understanding what it's like to be deceived by her because you're like, I don't know what to believe. She did it to me, too. She did it to him. She did it to him. And that the crazy thing is like it's like the unstoppable force meets the immovable object. Here you have the guy who himself creates these false realities for a living. That's all he did. The rehearsal was literally creating false realities and but but like committing to
11:05the bit. And then you see her even but while she's like going to jail and it's so real. [ __ ] is so real now. You're leaving your children. You're gonna be in jail for years and she's still in a way committed to the bit and create she has this reality that's clearly false.
11:20But it's the question is does she not realize it's false or is she that good that she makes you think she doesn't believe it's false? You know what I mean? and and um the you're confused because you went in thinking she's nuts, she's a liar, she's wrong, and you left thinking she's nuts, she lied, but maybe she didn't mean it.
11:44But what are you confused about then?
11:46Well, all right, there's two two ways to look at this. One is did she just do the Silicon Valley kind of fake it till you make it thing except for she got kind of caught before she could make it and it it was healthcare, so it was higher risk. So she kind of did the entrepreneurial thing like Elon does when he says, "Hey, this is going to be self-driving. We we'll be self-driving at Coast to Coast by next year." But we don't look at him as this fraudster.
12:06It's just sort of this optimistic entrepreneur who's trying to build the future and pitching it. Okay, that's like the very very favorable favorable version. Then you have this other version which is like no, she willingly, knowingly defrauded investors and patients and that was really, you know, that's a messed up thing to do and she deserves to go to jail. But like was she the mastermind or not? And that's where the the second important part of the movie is a lot of it is about Billy her whatever he is her husband or whatever.
12:34Ben or Diego describe kind of who is this Billy guy and what's your what did you know about him coming in versus now?
12:39I knew absolutely no. I had heard the name Billy. Had no idea like his background, who he was. Um still don't really understand who he is. Husband, boyfriend. I don't even know if he was the father of the kids, but you're telling me he is. It was a very weird relationship. didn't know much about him. Um, but I think he's an [ __ ] Like that that was sort of like my biggest takeaway from the movie.
12:59He's an [ __ ] to Holmes or to everyone else in general. I think he's just an [ __ ] Um, and I was sort of telling Sean this of like I've learned there's like there's certain archetype where he has like this dark curly hair and uh he's probably like the third or fourth person that looks like this and uh he's turned out being an [ __ ] But there's like this one scene in the movie where Elizabeth is like scrambling eggs and she's just like not really she's like kind of halfassing it. They're in mid-con conversation. Billy stops the entire conversation, goes up to her,
13:29takes the bowl out of her hand and just starts scrambling it a lot faster like you weren't doing this right type.
13:34They're having a conversation and they it just shows Billy keeps looking out of the corner of his eye to how she's whisking the eggs. But they're talking about something very important about what happened at their us. He keeps looking and then he can't resist. He just grabs it. He starts doing it. And then Nathan's like, he stops the convers. He's like doesn't keep going on the serious topic. He's like, "What was what was wrong with the way she was doing it?" And he's like, "Oh, nothing was wrong. I just, you know, I wanted to help her." And then Nathan just sits there in the silence. And then Elizabeth's like, he thinks I don't do he thinks I wasn't doing a good job of
14:04it. He's like, "What? What do you mean?"
14:07So, who's that? Who's the alpha in the relationship?
14:10Well, that's kind of the way this comes.
14:11So the so one of the arguments that she made in her defense and that the kind of the movie tries to make is she's this innocent idealist and she was taken advantage of at Steros by this Sunny Balwani the guy she was romantically dating this like older Indian dude who she was dating for like a decade and there's one one kind of one out for her is if he was the guy who was pulling the strings. Okay. Now, they don't talk about that, but they draw this huge parallel by showing her
14:40relationship with Billy now, where he's clearly the guy pulling the strings, meaning it's his idea to do the the documentary. He's kind of the one interfacing with them. There's a big part where he goes behind the her back in a way, like he they they reenact this scene before they started filming where they go to their house to meet and they're talking about what this movie would be, how it would work. and she reads this like excerpt from her book that's like flowery poetry that she's writing about like her experience and
15:09they're like cool writing you like nice and then she's like the baby starts crying she has to go upstairs and then Billy now that she's gone he's like all right I want to talk about one thing which is we want a piece of the action we want we want a piece of the upside here and then H14 is like that's not typical in a documentary it's not a good idea um because it sort of like blurs the ethical line of like are you just going to be doing this for profit or do you really want your story told? In
15:37fact, isn't that one of the main things you're trying to argue is that no, she didn't defraud these people to to self-enrich. She doesn't care about money and yet you're going to ask for money out of this and then people will question did you do this for money just like that, right? You see why that's problematic? He's like, "Harry and Megan got hundred million for their documentary, so just saying we want our fair share." And so they and then they're like, "Well, we didn't have much leverage, so we agreed to it." And so the whole thing is And then she doesn't
16:06know that he did that or she claims to not know. We think, but we don't know. How could she not know? They're so close. They have this like crazy like trauma bond love.
16:16Did she address the voice?
16:18They didn't talk. So they didn't talk about the voice. They didn't talk about a lot of things. This is kind of the criticism I would have with the movie, which is like, you know, for example, under oath, she testified, she admitted that she added like the like the fi uh Fizer logo to some documents when she presented to Walgreens that made it look like they had signed off on her tests, but they hadn't, and that was completely misleading, and that was illegal. And she admitted that, which kind of like breaks the whole premise of she doesn't really know, she doesn't lie. like she
16:47admitted to that under oath and he doesn't bring that type of stuff up, dude. And I think I think that like two things aren't being mentioned and tell me if they were mentioned. I didn't follow I didn't read the book, but uh I think that one of our employees killed himself because he had to testify or something like that and he thought he was totally innocent and the pressure was like getting to him. He's like, I can't believe I got dragged in this. I think he I think a guy committed suicide. And then I also think that there was both now this is I'm not sure about this but tell me if it's right
17:16that some cancer patients were told they didn't have cancer and vice versa. Is that right?
17:22I don't know those two things so I haven't looked into that much to know. But also you did learn what's she like.
17:28What's he like? What's she like? Which is the thing you didn't know right? Like the case has already been litigated with all the evidence that existed. If you wanted to see it you could go see that.
17:36What you didn't know is what is she really like? And I would say you kind of got the Elizabeth Holmes experience where you're like in her weird reality distortion field and you walk away not not fully knowing what's what to believe and what not to believe. Ben, you didn't give what did you think about the movie by the way?
17:52I mean I think seeing what she's like is the question I want to know about anyone famous or in the know that you never get like I don't know. I find the what is the story of the company to be not that interesting. More the lens of what is she like is the most interesting thing cuz you never get that unless you know someone well. So, how would you describe it? What's she like now that you've watched it? Three hours of watching her.
18:12I think she's incredibly persuasive. I think she's very engaging. It's very easy to believe her. You know, it's they paint Billy in a specific way, but she doesn't see him in that way. So, I would say I mean, overall, I just thought the movie was unbelievably good. Like, probably the best maybe the best movie I've ever seen in terms of entertainment. It was so good.
18:34Let me ask you guys this. So Sean, do you know who Roy Cohen is?
18:39Okay. So Roy Cohen was a very popular lawyer in New York City in the 70s and 80s and a lot of people regarded him as like a fairly evil guy because he would um he sued the government tons of times and he but he was known as a pit bull.
18:52He was vicious. And at one point he met this young developer who he thought was very promising and he was like, "I'm going to take you under my wing and show you how to get things done um in this city." And that young guy was Donald Trump. And according to a couple books that I've read about him, a lot of people say Donald Trump sort of changed after hanging out with Roy Cohen because he learned the rules of power. And one of his uh Roy Cohen's biographer made a list of six rules that they noticed um Roy went through. And I don't know if Roy actually wrote these down, but they
19:21were um some of the rules. And the first rule was never apologize or admit wrongdoing ever. Always counterattack and always with greater force than you received. Use the legal system as a weapon, not as uh not as a thing for justice. Manipulate the media ruthlessly. Use fear both as a shield and a sword. And the last one was build a fortress of loyalty around yourself.
19:43And the biography was like these are like six rules that we have noticed repeatedly Roy Cohen um uh used. And he's kind of an interesting guy to study because he came from nothing and became very powerful and Trump worked with him.
19:55Um, and so my question to you is do you did you notice anything about like the laws of human nature where you're like this is interesting like not that you're going to replicate it but like was this is interesting she is using this rule to manipulate and take control.
20:10The see when you when you say that that makes perfect sense and that lines up with you know Trump and and whatnot and actually even Ben when you were saying she's very persuasive. The crazy thing about the movie is that I expected her to be this kind of charismatic, maybe like kind of egoomaniac, maybe very charming, maybe very compelling, maybe very persuasive, but you got to have your your guard up because she's so she's going to kind of hit you with such, you know, oh, I could see why people fell for her. She's completely
20:39disarming is her style. So, she doesn't try to convince you of anything. She doesn't like turn it on. She's not the center of attention. She's the opposite.
20:50It's like the whole thing is like she's just like, I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. I don't know. But then you're like, wait, is this some nine dimensional chess where she's so disarming that I am disarmed and that like then the subtle thing works because she was so seemingly uninterested in charming you or presenting anything. Like she doesn't wear makeup. The movie is called You Can Se Everything. Like, you know what I mean?
21:17Yeah. There's there's one moment when they like kind of somewhere an hour in where they show her watching The Dropout, which is this like fictional show made about her that is on Hulu and they show kind of two or three ridiculous scenes and you're just obviously agreeing that's not how she is. And I think that's a good example of like where you're at mentally in the movie. You're like, "Oh, she would never do that." That's so far off that sound like, "Oh, I I I couldn't see her doing that." So, so kind of the genius of the
21:46movie is um you know her argument is I've been portrayed as this monster that's not me and then other people say no you are a monster and then you know one other argument is that maybe so so you know they're kind of saying the media is a bit of a monster they they because they made me look like a monster which is not true the media tells these untruths and then another defense is like well maybe she wasn't the monster maybe Sunny was the monster Billy's the monster and then and another is no, she's the ultimate monster because of
22:15all that. And the way the movie works is he kind of shows that it's all true.
22:19Everybody's guilty. So, it's like Billy definitely manipulative comes across like a complete [ __ ] You know, he's he's the biggest kind of loser in I would say in the film. At the same time, one of the things he does halfway through, so she goes to jail. So, it's like, how are you going to do this documentary? Because she's in jail now.
22:34You can't even see her on camera, can't hear her audio, nothing. Well, one of the things that Nathan Fielder is famous for is recreating sets, reenactments, hyperrealistic reenactments. For example, like one of his shows, this guy's going to have a difficult conversation like Breaking Up with his girlfriend. So, he recreates he builds to to the inch the same bar that that guy's going to go to, hires paid actors who have studied the patrons of that bar just so he can go in and feel what it's going to be like to have that awkward conversation. It's like just like over the top. He did this thing
23:04where he's like he studied pilots and how if you re go listen to the blackbox footage which he spent years doing he learned that the the number one like root cause of crash plane crashes is that there's this weird social dynamic between the captain and the co-pilot and that the co-pilot might notice something is wrong that the captain's doing something wrong but they're afraid to mention it. they mention it too late and when they mention it the captain slaps them down and then they don't say anything literally flying to their death and he's like that's so crazy so I want
23:32to understand the social dynamic but he can't you know go where the pilots go in airport so he recreates the Denver airport to the tea like with the TSA and he walks through and he's observing how the pilots sit in the lounge beforehand and he's watching them it's like this absurd methodology he has okay so in this movie he goes and he he brings it halfway through the movie when she goes to jail he brings the actress who played her in the movie. Suddenly she's in this in this in this movie who played her in the Hulu series.
24:01Amanda uh whatever Ciphford or something something like that. I don't know what her last name is. So he brings her in and he shows her the footage that we've been seeing in the first half of the movie. She watches it has the same reaction we just had. So now it's like Inception. And then basically you see that in a way she's kind of guilty too. She's extremely judgment, quick to judge her. And then she sees Elizabeth's reaction to watching the series for the first time and how she's portrayed and how painful that was to watch. And then she feels
24:30really guilty, but she's like, "No, like everybody knows this is TV. Like, it's fiction."
24:35He's like, "Well, that's a lie, right?
24:37Fiction is a lie." So, it's like, "You're mad at her for being a lie, but you you know, you're obviously telling fiction and it's has a pretty big impact on the way the world sees her and her."
24:46And then she gets really defensive about it, but he's not attract he's not attacking her either. He just he lets it all unfold as the movie goes on. And so you see that like yeah, I guess they're kind of guilty too for the way they did it. The New York Times reporting where it was like she says this thing where she says like that's not me. That's a character I created. And she's like I didn't say that. And the New York Times like well we don't have record that you said it but we stand by our journalist.
25:09It's like well that was pretty important that you know that that thing. So the whole thing is kind of and then and the kind of the cherry on top is that like Nathan himself the by the end of the movie the actress calls into question well Nathan like are you also like kind of have you fallen under her spell like are you not telling me everything because maybe at some level you are trying to protect her too and he's like why would you say that I'm doing that and then there's like this like key scene in the whole thing that won't make sense to unpack but it's the scene of
25:39them in the ocean together that like was a call back to the beginning of the movie that's like ah kind of damning and then you're like what god damn it I walked out of this thing we all got we all got duped by everybody.
25:51What were her parents like? What was she like as a kid?
25:54Well, they show them. Her parents showed up. Her mom didn't say too much that there was a hilarious part where it's the morning where she's going to go to jail and it's her, Billy's there, kids are there, her parents are there, and Nathan comes in and he gives her a gift like before she goes to jail and it's kind of a gag gift. And what he ends up gifting her like something to like change her hair color and sunglasses like in case you want to make a run for it this morning like uh I gave you everything that you can parents are
26:22there. He's like, I realize now in this situation it might be a bad taste, but it's it's it's a wig and hair coloring, glasses and hair color in case you want to flee, but I I understand that that might not be appropriate right now. Um I'm going to go to my car for a little. He goes sit in his car. did um uh that's it would make me feel sad for the the kids too like because they're showing her kids and it would manipulate heartbreaking where she's she's right before she's going to jail she's like
26:51she's like tells Billy she's like I left milk in the fridge and then she just like starts crying right cuz she's like not going to be able to you know breastfeed her kid who they showed her doing that many times now and she's going to jail for an unknown period of time crazy what uh when does she get out 10 years it's a 10ear sentence I think She's supposed to get out in four or something, right?
27:10She's getting out this year, I think, like right in the next year. And what does it say what she was like in prison?
27:15Uh, well, they don't they don't know.
27:16They don't say, and you can't they can't show it. So, you know, they talk about how like she gets like 2 minutes of phone time and they talk about some of like the difficulties of life there.
27:25There's this funny scene where uh they're in the kitchen and remember how Billy made like a AI recreation of Elizabeth Holmes like right before she went to prison? They like did this whole they like went somewhere did like a photo shoot and they were able to create like an AI version of Elizabeth Holmes and basically it got to the point where like he could make her say anything.
27:42Yeah. So So they show Billy being like this kind of super controlling. He loves her but he's controlling and it might not be in her best interest but she loves him so devotionally that she's okay with it and like maybe that's how she was at Theronos with Sunny and maybe that's why. So basically he's sitting there at his dinner table. There's the AI giant monitor of her just sitting there fake ne next to him.
28:06A three- foot long Komodo dragon on the table, which I guess is his like pet dragon. Once she got once she went to jail, he's got this like crazy pet dragon. And um and he's talking about how he has power of attorney. So they're like, "How is she tweeting?" And he's like, "Well, like, you know, she she has internet access, but it's only email."
28:25And they're like, "So how is she tweeting?" It's like, "Well, you know, it's me physically typing in it, but she sends it to me." It's like, so she tells you like, "Tweet this." It's like, "Well, no, she doesn't have to tell me. I know. I know her. So, what we're like this, like we're we're one." And they're like, "Well, that's pretty messed up.
28:39You're posing as her. People don't know that's you saying it, not her." He's like, "Well, it's I know what she would want to say."
28:45And they're like, "You see how that's like messed up, right?" And he's treating like stuff and what?
28:52Holmes Holmes DM'd me once uh one time someone was Bill. Well, I didn't know who it was. Read it. I can't I can't So the background of this is like there was like a controversy where people were like giving me [ __ ] and I like replied and I'm like no this is not true. This here's the truth. And he replied and it said uh he goes um you handled that exceedingly well. And I said I don't like reading that I say lol. Makes me sound like a little girl. But I said lol
29:20thank you but I can't decide if I want you to think that I handled that well.
29:27Yeah dude. You got to read your words. This is the core of the movie. All right. Then it's crying laughing. All right. I'll read it. Crying laughing emoji. Back to you.
29:35And then you say I'm being serious.
29:41And then your response was perfect. Passion and humility. And then that's it. That's I didn't What's at the bottom there? There's a There's something at the bottom there.
29:53Something you maybe didn't want us to see, but it's you can see everything, Knight. No, that was it just said thank you. That was it. That was the end of the conversation. And then I said, "Is this really Elizabeth Holmes? Who is this?" And no one replied.
30:05My question is, um, where do you stand on this?
30:09This is one of those movies that I think you almost have to like let it sit. You have to like digest it. I think in two weeks my where I will sit on this is so different than, you know, 12 hours later, which is why I Are you h is it just that she went to prison?
30:20Is it just Yeah. Yeah, I think I think so. But once I like go read the like I asked Chad I was like what is the strongest damning evidence? So here here's what it said. I said what is the strongest damning evidence that Elizabeth Holmes committed fraud at their notice and it basically says here's the strongest one. She personally doctorred the Fiser reports at trial.
30:40She admitted that she personally added pharmaceutical company logos. Fiser representatives testified they did not.
30:46Walgreens testified that the documents made them believe Fiser had authored reports. Okay, next one. They staged fake demonstrations for in for investors. So, they were told they're invited to use the blood testing machines. They sometimes ran a null protocol and appeared to be processing blood, but actually but they actually weren't. Uh they were secretly being tested on conventional machines manufactured by other companies. And the investors believed they had just witnessed breakthrough technology. She knew the machines were failing but kept
31:14telling investors that they worked. Of the 300 small sample assays that were developed by them, only 12 were ever run on their own machines. Other tests were performed on thirdparty equipment. She claimed they were used on battlefields and they weren't, which you know was like just directly not true. And then, you know, this is more of the founder one like she projected $230 million of revenue and actual income was 1.94.
31:39So yeah, I think that's like the least one.
31:42Is Billy rich? How does Billy make a living? So she's in debt, right? like she'll never get out of this. But how how do they survive?
31:50It comes up in the movie. He's like he's like, "Did you ever were you ever concerned that she was lying to you?"
31:56And he's like, "No, what does she have to gain from me?" He's like, "Well, your family's really rich, right?"
32:01Didn't his family start the fair? Uh I forget which hotel, a hotel chain.
32:05Yeah. They start they started a bunch of hotels.
32:08So he would his defense was like, "Well, I mean, we did okay. my family did well, but you know, there's like levels to wealth and and and so, you know, he's kind of well off. Then I think this movie was going to pay them. You know, that was kind of the hope was that he would make money off this movie. In the end, he after Nathan kind of like pushes and like that's like a big plot of the movie is like this this this thing about that, he he tells Elizabeth, "Did you know that Billy asked us for money?"
32:36And then, you know, she kind of dodges the question a little bit. In the end, he he took it back and and didn't ask for points on the movie. So, it sounds like a huge huge win for Holmes because before everyone thought this woman's evil, there's nothing here. And now at least people think maybe we're not sure or it's complicated. And also, I've seen so many smart people say this is one of the greatest movies they have ever seen.
33:02Yeah. If we did like a biggest winners and losers, I would say, Ben, who's the biggest winner in this whole thing?
33:08Nathan Fielder. I think like I think Nathan Fielder goes from well known in a small group of people to like gonna be massively famous now probably and he did his life's work histick found like lock and key found the perfect lock for his his unique key that he is. So I think Nathan biggest winner second is Elizabeth. I mean, I would have said seconds A24 just another win on A24's notch of another massive but if this is A24 if they don't do this movie they're still A24
33:37for her for her and Nathan this is lifechanging because at least now she can go into the speaker circuit now now A16Z can back her next round you know when she comes out of prison yeah exactly um so I think she's the biggest winner I think biggest loser is Billy has to be Billy I think kind of next biggest loser is the actress. But maybe I'm alone in that. Did you feel that way?
34:01No. I mean, I personally didn't, but I think she had a lot of backlash online. Like, I think a lot of people said she came out as like too judgmental and stuff like that.
34:09Well, she she was like, this is before she even met him. This is literally just off of like watching the pre before Amanda met Nathan.
34:17No, no. before Amanda Met Billy, she's watching with Nathan the like pre-cut, like the the the whatever the rough cut of the movie. And then she's like talking to him about what where it's from here. And she's like, "I wish you could just dig up some dirt on him."
34:30He's like, "On who?" She's like, "Billy." He's like, "You want me to dig up dirt on Billy? Why?" She's like She's like, "To like break them up and show like you know what he's" And he's like, "You want me to break them up?" She's like, "Yeah, I wouldn't want any woman to be with a guy like that."
34:44It's like such a like kind of like I kind of understand the perspective but like whoa you're not supposed to say that out loud. You know this cameras here right? Like what are you saying?
34:53And she uh there was also this incredible scene where they go to his house. Elizabeth's in jail while they're hang and he he's like can I bring like whatever her name is Amy.
35:06Amanda can I bring Amanda? And and Billy's like yeah and she's like does he know I'm coming and is he okay with that? And like did he ask why? He's like not really. So they go and it's like Billy, the kids, and Amanda on a couch and Nathan over in the corner like like usual creeping. And then Elizabeth calls from prison. And then Billy's like, "Hey, you know, kids are going to go say good night in a second." And uh Amanda's here. And then Amanda's like, "Oh, no.
35:36Um you only have two minutes. I don't want to. You have a beautiful family."
35:40She like doesn't know what to say. and she's panicking and she's like feels just cringe in her body like convulsing and then they like kids go to sleep and you can tell they kind of are drinking for a little while and basically [ __ ] gets a little loose. So Billy is just like I'm going to burn all these mfers to the ground and they're like what?
35:57Who? He's like everyone. He's like everyone. And they're he's like I got vengeance in my heart and I'm smart. I'm strategic. I'm smarter than all them.
36:05I'm I'm going to I'm going to take them out. I'm and and then he's like they'll get you know they don't know what I'm capable of and then he's like like harming them and he's like yeah and then it's like kind of weird. So he's like kind of outs himself as being somewhat evil and then she she starts kind of pushing back on or no he's pushing back on her like he's saying he's talking about like the people who did the Hulu show the showrunners evil people and then she's like kind of
36:33trying to defend it and he's like you know she lied and he's like you're an actress you know that's you're you are fake for a living and uh and then she gets defensive it's kind of they go back and forth and it's pretty and then and then there's like the car afterwards where she's reacting to like how much she hates him and it's like clear that like it's personal for her and she's pretty judgmental and so you know I feel like everybody is guilty in this movie.
36:58Have you ever been to someone's house and like seen how they live? Like I've I've been to like a couple's house and see their kids and I'm like shocked where they say there's like levels to wealth, there's levels to like athletics and then there's like different levels of like weirdness and it's like these people live so differently from me. I can't even It's hard to even empathize.
37:18Like I've met like um a couple before and like their kid like bossed them around and it was like oh well our kid said he doesn't want to do this so we're just not going to do this. And I I remember thinking I'm like that is crazy that that that is crazy people do that.
37:32But there's like more extremes where you like you'll meet someone and you're like your kids are 10, they don't go to school. They got long hair. Like you believe in like like you like it's like crazy that people think that way. And it's not necessarily, I say crazy, but crazy in the sense of like that's so unique and different from how I would do it. Not necessarily right or wrong, but you see that there's like different levels of how people live. This seems like one of those experiments where you're like, I believe these people actually believeless. I believe that they live this way and that is so odd in
38:01the sense of like that is just so far from what the average person would be like, but I also believe that what they're doing is true to them and they act like this even when there aren't cameras around. And that's crazy how people get caught in this vortex.
38:13This this is their reality and their reality is bizarre for the rest of us.
38:18Yeah. Like for example, I've hung out with a couple comedians before and I'm like they are funny all the time. Like they cannot be serious. Like they're I've never seen them act serious even in the most serious situations. Like if there was a hostage situation or if they were dying of cancer, they would be cracking jokes. And that's just so different from how I would ever react to the situation. But it's not a shtick.
38:38people are just they're they're they're strange or like when you see like a celebrity like sing ac cappella like a singer you're like oh my god this is crazy even when they don't use autotune they're the best this is crazy that this talent exists it's sort of like when you see this movie you're like I can't believe that this type of wild attitude truly exists and it's real they actually are like that yeah definitely felt that way what do you think of that you know Sam asked what I thought my overall thought is you got to go see the movie like I think uh you got to go see
39:07this movie like I'll go pay for your I'll pay for your ticket right now. I'll have my instinct book it for you to go and dude my wife is going on Wednesday and she was like I'm going without you cuz I told her I couldn't sit through a three-hour movie and I just I just texted her. I said get a babysitter.
39:24Yeah. I think they believe what they're saying. I think uh yeah, they're just so much different than normal people are. And that's kind of but I think that's what it takes to build a multi-billion dollar company even if it was fake, right? You got to kind of be cra you got to be crazy.
39:38I don't think that's what it takes.
39:40I think that is a version of what it could take.
39:44Maybe the better way to say it is like if that's if that was the outcome, you shouldn't be shocked by what you see. You know how they are.
39:50Yeah, I agree. That's awesome. All right. You guys have convinced me uh to see the movie now cuz it is super long, right?
39:58Yeah, it's very long. It's It's weird because in the middle of the movie, I'm like, how long is this movie? And then it ends so abruptly that I was like, I need more. I need you can't end there. I need to I need more finality and conclusion on this. So that was at least my feeling at the end. Um, can we just end with I just want to know for Ben and and Diego like what are your what were the moments of genius or the best part that you remember? Like what was what are you like still what still like burned into your mind, you know, a day
40:27later or your, you know, give me your your your favorite favorite things that stood out. I mean, I think the reenactments were just great. Like, even just reenacting the entire prison scene.
40:36So, basically, he goes to visit Elizabeth Holmes in prison. Can't bring cameras in. What does he do? The next best thing, which is recreate the entire prison, the whole inside, have the guards, have like fake prisoners coming in, vending machines, vending machines, everything. Um, I just thought the reenactments, I thought the storytelling was A+. Um, I can't wait for Nathan's next big thing. Um, but yeah, those are sort of my big takeaways. the production budget was only5 to7 million.
41:04I would say I would say the way Nathan Fielder asks questions where you're like, "Oh, that's like I wouldn't ask that or be uncomfortable asking it and he just asks straight up whether it's big or small." He just stands there and asks and sits with the uncomfortability.
41:18Um, somebody said he he has uh weaponized awkwardness at a level nobody's seen before. Meaning he's willing to sit in it just as long as you are. And the weird thing is she's the only one to ever match his crazy on that. What What's an example, Ben, of like a question they cuz I thought in some ways, yes, he he says things that are very like blunt, but a lot of times I'm like, "Ask the followup. Ask directly. Ask the thing directly."
41:43He did. He doesn't do it. A lot of the times when he asks directly, Billy, at least in the first half, like pulls them out of the room. He's like, "Oh, we got to go." So he'll be like, "Oh, tell me."
41:53You know, he'll ask a question like, "We got to go." before they answer. I mean, this is a small one, but he stays in the house and they put out a bed frame. And I just remember him being like, "Wait, so do you just sleep on bed frame?" You know, he was like, "Is there a bed?" And because there was no mattress and I just thought even that question alone, the way he asked it was good. I I liked the use of Amanda Seaffrey because I thought she was kind of saying what people were thinking a lot. Now, I didn't, you know, she was judgmental, but I do think it was like a very meta
42:21that's how a normal person watching would act, right? Yeah, it was very meta to bring her in who seemed very normal in the way she was thinking about it.
42:28So, it helped me understand it help it took someone less autistic in the room and she was like normal and she was just asking normal questions to help you process it. I think um you know I just wanted more like I left wanting way more. I want I I've tried to listen to like eight podcasts after this and no none of the podcasts have delivered yet.
42:49And what I'm looking for, like I'm looking for an intellectual conversation to help me process. I read like two hours of Reddit till like 2 a.m. the night after I watched it. I'm just looking for the like postgame conversation, which hopefully after Sam sees it, this can deliver on again. Um because this was the first 80 minute, the first 80% of this is just Sean telling you what happened. So I want I want to hear Well, it would be cool.
43:13It'd be cool uh to have Tim Draper on. Um Tim Draper is uh see I've never talked to him but he seems like a pretty great guy and he was one of the original champions of Elizabeth Holmes. It'd be interesting to hear his perspective because he got burned the hardest in terms of I think financially he got burned the hardest.
43:28So Ben, if we wanted to give you what you wanted, which is the the what? Let's do it. What do What do you What do you want to hear? What do you want?
43:35Honestly, I was like, I should go book this movie to go see it in an hour and take notes of all the things that I'm like, go rewatch it with a notepad cuz I, you know, just take notes of the stuff I'm noticing cuz I I just want to hear I want to hear you guys break down what you thought without retelling it for people that have seen it and like, oh, this was interesting for this reason or like I disagreed with like here's my interpretation of what was happening. We just get done doing a 50-minute podcast and Ben ends with, "Well, what do you
44:05want?" And Ben goes, "Not that.
44:07You're not really delivering."
44:09Well, I mean I mean for the first 40 minutes, if you saw the movie, it's like Sean's telling you his version that's, you know, obviously going to be slightly worse than the movie, you know. No offense, you know.
44:23But the movie has all this spectacle where you're feeling how she is and you have to feel how she talks. You know, the trailer was one of the greatest trailers I've ever seen. I saw the trailer uh I think it was the greatest trailer I've ever seen.
44:36I think I saw it I think I saw it originally when I was watching the Odyssey or I don't remember where but it like it it it got more publicity. It's Oh, you saw it in theater. Uh, I saw the I I think it was uh I think they had the trailer there at the Odyssey, but it could have been on I don't remember, but I remember it's like wherever I was, it was it was uh if I had seen that trailer out of nowhere when I was at a movie theater, that would have been so electric. That would have been absolutely electric. I mean, it was electric on my Twitter
45:05timeline, which is just not the same as being in a theater and then suddenly this like pattern interrupt happens of the because I've never seen a trailer like that, right? It's completely different in style and you don't even know that this movie was being made and so you're like is this what is that her?
45:19That's her. What's happening? And then it zooms out and she's rocking the baby and you see how close they were in this tiny room and you're like oh my god unbelievable.
45:27I'll put it this way. My my like K factor I've texted like 15 people that they have to go see this movie. Like Sean was supposed to see it on Saturday didn't and I was like dude you got to see it. Like I don't know what you're doing. You got to go see it.
45:40uh in in New York. It was uh when when did it come out? On Saturday and tickets were impossible to get for the first 6 days or 4 days.
45:49My favorite things the things I thought were genius. Uh my favorite scenes the egg mixing scene I thought was so good.
45:55That's like such a show not tell of an entire relationship dynamic. I thought the scene talking with her dad at the beginning and then Billy tries to interrupt and tries to cut that off. I thought the who's on first scene, the who's on first thing was just so good. I can't believe we haven't talked about that yet.
46:13Do you think that was legit? Do you think she genuinely doesn't understand or do you think that was like a she was playing type of thing?
46:20Like in my Again, I don't know. I don't know.
46:23I mean I mean on that scene I was like if someone asked me if someone asked something anymore, Sam bended like that. But if if someone if someone asked me what to say I would have been I also would have been like I don't I understand what's happening but I don't know how to tell you what's happening.
46:37At first when she was explaining he's like why do you get why that's funny?
46:40And she what she said I thought was passible but when he goes what's the guy's name on first and she goes I don't know. And she's like who? His name is who? And he's like she's like I didn't get that.
46:55I'm like what? Like that that part broke my brain. like a Was she just like a smart dumb person?
47:02Well, when when when at that point in the movie at that point in the movie, you're like, "Oh, she's just a ditz."
47:07Like she just doesn't Yeah, maybe generously a smart dumb person or just a dumb dumb person when you when you watch that part. However, and you can on top of that, you're like, you know, when he's accusing her of like, you know, when he's like, "Do you see why that's misleading?" She's like, "No, I don't."
47:22And you're like, "Okay." You know, at that point, you're like, "Maybe she's just a liar. She's in denial." when the who's on first thing happens, you're like, are you just off? So, I thought that was just an unbelievable tool or mechanism to again like just introduce plant these seeds of doubt that the movie was genius because you go into the documentary expecting it to clarify and tell you what to think and instead it just weaves all these paths
47:50that you can go down and and show you how how little you know rather than knowing more coming out, which is amazing. It's like I mean that's the irony of the thing called you can see everything. It's like there's a sent second sentence on top of that. It's you can see everything and still not know.
48:04And it's like that's that's the mind of the whole movie is that seeing everything won't tell you what you think you what you think you'll get out of seeing everything. So I thought that was great. I thought watching the dropout was was just again amazing the way they did it. The way he's got the small laptop on a bed together with them and she's having that reaction and he's just letting it sit.
48:24So good. I thought all the reenactments were perfect because it's like this odd skill that Nathan has trained for 15 years. That was actually the perfect tool for doing a documentary about somebody who's in jail and you can't you can't show them or see them. It's like you need the reenactment for it to work. So, I thought that was good. We haven't mentioned the random dick drop in the first 10 minutes of the movie.
48:47The most shocking thing.
48:49You're there in their house and it's this like family scene. It's hers, the kids. It's awkward, but you don't. And then it's just Billy's schlong.
48:58Billy's in the shower.
48:59Billy's And then Billy's in the And it just shows it. It just zooms up from there. And you see it's Billy. And you're like And it's just so crazy. And it's like you That's the first time you start to realize like, oh, Billy himself might be a bit of a schlong himself. And then and then you're like, "Wow, they really you can see everything. Wow, this actually is a level of that's awesome transparency that's shocking." And then you realize he's agreeing to that signing up and why would he do that?
49:26What kind of psycho would agree to that?
49:28Obviously that has nothing to do with showing Liz in a new light. Why would he ever agree to that? And that question alone is like so damning. Why would he have let them do that?
49:40All right, I'm sold. I'll go see it. What What's it out of 10? Wrap up there.
49:47It has to be a 10. It has to be good. I mean, it's Is there any other movie where I'm like, "Yo, I got to do a movie movie debrief.
49:54It's a 10 the next day." That alone is like the evidence. You can't I It's on a different axis. It's not It was not the most enter not the most entertaining or most enjoyable thing to watch. It's not the most satisfying movie, but it's an astonishing movie. It's astonishing. How do you do this in secrecy? Because he's been doing stuff leading up to this.
50:15Like I see him like he was like a fringe guy. Like I' I've seen just like a handful of like viral clips and it seems like he's been doing stuff. So, but he kept a very tight circle cuz one of the problems was if people knew what he was doing or what he was talking about, it would have kind of spoiled the movie. So, he had to keep it very very tight.
50:33They said like maybe like, you know, 30 people knew about the film altogether. Like it was like a very tight circle.
50:38Yeah. One one thing that's crazy is Brian Johnson did a Q&A right afterwards supposedly in LA with uh with Billy and I'm trying to I DM'd a bunch of people to try and call them and ask what he said afterwards cuz it's off the record. But Brian Johnson did a Billy Q&A on Friday.
50:54Dude, why wouldn't Billy do a Q&A right after a documentary where they showing his dick and they make him look bad?
50:59You need to understand Billy by watching the movie. Then you'll know how he did it.
51:02The man that is Billy.
51:04Billy is not you and you're not Billy is all you have to understand. Ben, give me the final verdict on your belief that Elizabeth Holmes was a knowing was knowingly uh committing fraud like like conning like she was in on it.
51:20There's there's too much evidence that she knew. I think she maybe she didn't know everything, but she definitely was complicit and was a part of some of it.
51:29She definitely knew.
51:31She knew or she did it. Two different things.
51:33She definitely did it.
51:35Okay. If she did it and she knew and maybe she didn't do all of it, but she was in the loop and and was on board with all of it, then if that's true, then what do you make of how she acted in the movie?
51:47I think she didn't believe it was fraud. I think she it was fraud, but she didn't interpret it that way. And the way she would the way she did it to hit the big mission or like to solve the problem, but and she did because she was trying to solve this big problem. She didn't view it as fraud. She viewed it as doing whatever it took to ultimately get there.
52:07The means justified the ends.
52:10Yes. That's how I think she told herself that story.
52:13It wasn't. It's kind of like the line between um the line between crime and hustle is thinner than people think in the startup world.
52:24Yeah. And she told herself that what she was doing was hustle and that's what it was going to take to build this generational company and not fraud. I I'm with you on that. I think that she knew what was going on, meaning she wasn't out of the loop. It wasn't being done behind her back by other people.
52:40She knew what was going on and was complicit in it. She didn't see it as fraud or illegal or harming anybody. She saw it as being determined, strong willed, fake it till you make it. Um, you know, find a way to keep keep the thing going because you're going to, you know, succeed and change the world for better when you do it. That's my That's my belief about her after watching this and and hearing about her before this.
53:04But but it was fraud. She just didn't think of it in that context.
53:10All right. Well, thanks, boys.
53:13I wanted a spoiler. I got a spoiler and I'm still going to go see it now.
53:19All right. That's it.
53:20That's it. That's a pod.