0:00But Andrew, what a pleasure to have you here in New Delhi with us at the NDTV World Summit. Thank you for joining us. No, thank you. I'm really happy to be here in India today.
0:07You know, you need no introduction in terms of how much you represent all of us being that honest hope in the world of AI when everyone's painting this this image and conjuring this image, Andrew, of doom and gloom in terms of AI, the job apocalypse as some people are calling it. I know and now everyone in this hall soon will know that there is a counter theory. Andrew, you're not a believer in the job apocalypse.
0:34You so I want to speak directly to anyone worried about their job prospects. The student worried if there will be a job for you in the future when you graduate. I want to tell you there will be hope and it's not nearly as bad as the hype says it will. um a number of businesses have hyped up AI job loss or AI job apocalypse for to try to make themselves look more powerful or to um gain PR attention but the data that's coming out is that AI seems to be leading to more jobs created than
1:03destroyed and so if you keep on learning new skills um the jobs will be there frankly I wish AI worked better but it just doesn't work that well yet and it's just not good enough to destroy the vast majority of your jobs but is that a concern then that a lot of big tech companies now let's say big AI companies are sort of using this narrative to fuel this whole fear about AI. So when the larger public consumes this on social media and all of this uh you know all of this doom and gloom
1:32theory about how AI is going to uh AGI and ESI are going to come in and probably systems that we have delegated to will take over one day a terminator sort of a scenario. That is not very likely. In fact, your theory is that it will augment the existing workforce. It might add jobs in certain sectors. We've already seen that.
1:51You know, of all the different job sectors, the one that AI is affected the most is software engineering because AI is really good at writing code. And guess what? Certainly in the United States, the number of software engineings is up because when we make software engineers much more productive, we want to hire a lot more of them. So as AI starts to enter other job sectors, I think we'll see a similar effect as well in most maybe not all but in many different types of jobs. But the challenge and there is a big challenge is people do need new skills to work in
2:20this new AI enabled economy. And so having ways to help people gain the new skills they need. So we're readying them not for the jobs of 2026 or even heaven forbid the jobs of 2024 but for the jobs of 2028 and beyond. So that's the challenge ahead of us. That's a key point, Andrew, because you know, everyone's going to Corsera and a lot of other platforms where they're trying to upskill when it comes to AI. Newsrooms are trying to transform themselves with AI transformation courses. Young influencers are teaching us what what to
2:50do and what not to do in the world of AI. So you think that we are prepping for a 2026 scenario with 2024 skills probably but we should be looking at 2028 and beyond to make sure that our workforce here in India a lot of software engineers that you spoke of are genuinely armed and equipped to take on whatever's coming their way.
3:09Yeah. So frankly we have a lot of work to do there around the world. Um I'm worried about two things. First, even though we hope AI will help learning in the future, I'm going to say something that sounds controversial but is well supported by a growing body of evidence, which is that AI chatbots are terrible for learning. More and more data is coming out that when students use AI, their homework scores goes up. No surprise, AI doesn't work for you, but the final closebook exam scores goes down. One recent study from the University of Pennsylvania, Whartalon,
3:39showed 17% lower grades by students that use AI. And if you take this 17% chatbot learning loss and compound it over the lifetime or over many years of a student in school, I think if we don't change that, we will be on a trajectory to graduate students that know much less. Um the good news is though, I think we can build much better things. It's just not the current generation of chat bots.
4:03My second worry is that um many university systems and educational system is slow to change. So all around the world I still see universities teaching curriculara from you know a few years ago and so it's unfortunate that today it's still possible in many places to get a bachelor's degree in computer science without ever having used a AI coding assistance uh or ever made a call over the internet called API call to a leading frontier AI model and today I
4:33will not hire a software engineer that you know doesn't know how to use AI coding agent but changing the educational system is hard. But we do need to change it though to make sure that we help our students ready themselves for the jobs of today and the future.
4:46You know, when the chat GPT moment happened in the world of AI, they called it actually the iPhone moment because everyone thought AI is all about speaking to a chatbot. We were told then Jensen and top AI leaders around the world said that this is a pyramid and it will build and the next piece will be on Agentic. 2026 was the year of Agentic.
5:04Now everyone's caught up with Agentic already. You have Muse, you have Chad GPT dots, you have Instinct, which I use all the time. Andrew, you're going to tell us what you're using as well.
5:13Did you know this is not widely known, but uh uh I'm actually the person that coined the term agentic AI. So it was around early 2024 uh when I thought that that this wave of AI that doesn't just blurt out an answer but take multiple steps in order to reach a conclusion.
5:30And I remember searching on Google for the word agentic and the term was not used. I thought, you know what, I want to I think we should call this agentic AI. A and it turns out my team actually said, Andrew, the AI world does not need another term. But I felt this is different. So I kind of ran a secret campaign to get people to call this agentic AI. I started to write in a newsletter called it badge, start to talk about why we should call it agentic. And it was controversial back then. But what I was not expecting was that shortly after I was pushing for the use of this term, a number of marketers
6:00would get a hold of this term and slap it like a sticker on almost everything in sight. And that caused the hype to tick off, you know, very rapidly. But the good news is the business applications of Aentic AI while not as fast as the hype is also ticking off rapidly. So I feel pretty good about the trajectory that the world is on.
6:16Okay. So since we haven't scripted any of this and Andrew's had a busy schedule as well, we barely caught up over lunch.
6:21But since you do have you've played an instrumental role in the coining of the term agentic or AI agents and the way we know them let's do let's have a simple exercise over here a quick show of hands everyone who knows about AI agents have you guys heard of muse and dots and do you use AI agents okay all right so then but to be trans right the term AI agents around for a long time for a long time a call the new thing agentic AI for it has it roots in agency as well But but but
6:51tell so everyone that isn't accustomed or clamatized to the term agentic Andrew we're going to do a simple chat GPD exercise which is one we will explain agentic to this audience like we are explaining it to a seven-year-old and then we'll explain it to them like we're explaining it to a CEO of a top manufacturing company who wants to transform his company using artificial intelligence. Let's go with the first one. How do I explain it to a seven-year-old? You know, I I I maybe uh um
7:19before the rise of agentic AI, AI used to be something that you prompt and immediately get an answer back to. But with modern AI applications, we don't want AI to just input your prompt and blurt out an answer. We wanted to maybe do some web research, maybe look up some data, maybe think for a while and even reflect and edit itself and do a sequence of steps before giving you a vastly superior answer. So this type of technology is instrumental to a large
7:46number of businesses um use of AI today.
7:49But the maybe good news and bad news and why I think there will be no AI job apocalypse is that it's frankly a lot of work to look through your business and identify where agentic AI workflows can help and then to get the skilled engineers to go and implement them. Um actually at AI inspire my business partner Kirsty Tan and I we see ton we work with many businesses that are implementing this very success in getting business ROI but it is hard work and I think that uh even though there's hype that we have AGI in a few years and
8:18maybe AI will do it all. The reality is I think even a decade from now we'll still be identifying important business process workflows and working hard to implement them. And if we had to explain this to a CEO telling him he needs to hire the both of us to do the AI transformation for him. Um well, but I I find that I don't I'm I'm realizing that I you know I actually have a seven year old and I actually do speak with cos and I find that um uh I probably say really similar things to both which is no
8:46insult to cos I I find that maybe it's just a smart seven-year-old but but you know one actually I want to share just in terms of AI transfer I share one one uh maybe slight pet peeve which is a lot of cos still think of AI as a tool for cost savings and you know make people more productive save money that's fine let's do that nothing wrong with that but the opport opportunities to use AI to serve customers better to invent new products and services to drive business growth that's so much bigger and so much more interesting than merely cost
9:15savings but I actually see one other problem which is um in the public markets if you say you're going to you know we know how to estimate cost savings since we can largely control our cost but we can't control our revenue growth and so what I do see is I've had cos tell me they're actually have huge ambitions for growth using AI but when they talk to the stock market, they will talk mostly about cost savings because they don't want to set expectations they can't deliver to and they know how to better manage the cost and I think this
9:43has created a little bit of an echo chamber with tons of cos even though they're actually pursuing growth instead talking about cost savings and this has led to overemphasis. So to seals working on um industry transformation when when at AI spire when you talk to businesses cost savings is fine let's absolutely do that but I think putting equal or greater attention on how can we use AI to invent ways to serve customers better to drive growth I find that even more exciting before we move on to another
10:13arcane term in that lovely uh the cake that Jensen talks about let's go back dial down a little dial back because the audience clearly hadn't heard of agents Now we know so we can say thank you to Andrew. A huge round of applause please for that explanation better than any AI agent could do or any chatbot. And speaking of chat bots, how many of y'all have used chat GPT or Gemini or Claude?
10:35Now raise your hands.
10:38Okay, so we have a full house there. But they've used it as well, right?
10:42Andrew, but they've used it in its traditional form or sense which is a chatbot. You give a prompt and you expect some sort of hallucinated biased output which gets better every time when when every new model comes around. But but tell me Andrew, you don't believe that chat bots are actually any good. And I'm going to break the news to you for upskilling or learning, especially for the younger ones in society.
11:06more and more data is showing up that when students engage in cognitive offloading to AI, meaning make AI do your thinking for you, is good at getting the task done, but it really hurts learning. And while a lot of rigorous studies in formal education, kind of primary, secondary school, K12 and universities is appearing showing this result. I think the thing people often underestimate is how much chat
11:33bots are likely damaging adult learning as well. So maybe as a working professional, I use AI to help me get work done all the time. I think it's great. We should use it to get work done. But let's not fool ourselves that just because it's getting work done for you that it is helping you learn those things. It's gotten done for you. Um but to be clear, I think there's a better way forward. um Corsera and Udemy are working hard to help people gain skills in this era and also at uh deep learn
12:01vector um I'm working hard to see how we can invent the next generation of learning experiences which unlike for for the last 15 years I think a lot of online learning has been one to many where everyone you know kind of takes the same online course and there's nothing wrong with that it works well let's continue to do it but um I think there's also an opportunity to invent a new set of technologies, not AI chatbot, but something very different where we can deliver much more onetoone, much more personalized and customized
12:30learning experiences. Um, but that's still some of the important work that needs to be done ahead of us.
12:35You know, that's the beauty of the at the NDTV World Summit. We've had a plethora of conversations, a heavy lunch for everyone and ruings in the house and we have a full house. So, a huge round of applause for all of y'all. I would request someone to keep a mic on standby. There are a few question marks I see in the audience. We will come to you shortly. Keep a mic on standby, please. Andrew, you see these conversations coming out of cerebral valley. I won't call it Silicon Valley anymore because it's happening in downtown San Francisco. And the
13:03conversations are varying in terms of ideology, in terms of the future of AI.
13:09Dario Armaday, Sam Sam Alman, maybe the guys at Google or Microsoft, everyone isn't really seeing eye to eye when it comes to the future of AI. Then there's, you know, there's obviously geopolitics involved and then everyone sort of toes a certain line. Is it worrying that these guys have gotten so ubiquitous, so omnipotent, so powerful, but they're not necessarily on the same page?
13:32So I think throughout society, people have disagreed about all sorts of things. Um, and I know it's can be cons can feel concerning when you hear worries about AI fears. But when I hear these range of opinions, what I prefer to do is to look at the technology fundamentals and look at what the technology actually can and cannot do and form my own assessment on that basis. So first um it turns out that there have been strong incentives from a variety of businesses to hype up AI
14:00fears. It's been great PR because people talk about it when they say AI could end the world or lead to job loss or all these fears. So it's been good PR. um has also helped companies fund raise because it turns out when you make a ridiculous statement that you could wipe out humanity, you know, which is a ridiculous statement for any business to make uh because technology just doesn't work that way like that. It turns out to be an effective tactic to convince investors that maybe your technology is really powerful. Um and also Stokout
14:28fears have a tactic for rectory capture. It turns out that if you've spent billions of dollars training AI models, it's really annoying if some other group, maybe a research group, maybe another company, wants to publish an AI model free on the internet for anyone to use. That's a huge competitive threat.
14:46So, companies are stoking up AI fears to try to get regulators around the world to crush competition and not let others release these cheaper, more free models through what's called retry capture. So, these are some of the incentives for stoking up AI fears. But instead of um just commenting on the incentives, if I look at it, it turns out in the last few months, one event spiked up AI fears, which is when OpenAI's agents um were accidentally hacked into a hugging face.
15:13But when we look at what actually happened, these are engine problems to be solved. And the good news is now that the OpenAI hugging face hackers widely publicized, open AAI to their credit and many others are taking the security of these AI agents much more seriously. And so that type of security incident is now much less likely to happen again. And as this goes on, we will repeatedly reduce security problems and make AI safer and safer.
15:37Okay, we have some time. Andrew, I'm going to open up right here. We have a gentleman Mike very quickly. Usain Bold Run right here. All right, sir. Very quick question, please. And we'll try to get you an answer as soon as possible. Please introduce yourself.
15:51Hi, I'm Dr. Dr. Pawand Dougal, senior advocate, Supreme Court of India and one of our one of our foremost cyber lawyers in the country.
15:58Thank you and the the chairman of the global AI accountability forum. My quick question today the biggest problem is got to do with accountability of AI now that AI has begun started causing harm to humans. So January I released the AI accountability framework but the agent AI coming in we released the Google global agent AI liability framework in April showing the legal basis of how AI agents can be made legally liable. Now still countries are sleeping they have not started waking up to this entire
16:26issue. Your take what advice do you want to give to these governments of the world on how they need to regulate these rogue AIs which ultimately are acting against human interest?
16:36You know um I have a strong point of view on this. One of my friends, Dan Hutton locker, wrote a Wall Street Journal oped that that put this very well as well, which is hold the humans that driving the AI responsible. Um, because if I take a hammer and I wield a hammer and I accidentally hit the wall and dent the wall, is it my fault or is it the hammer's fault? Seems like it's my fault as a tool user. And if we think of AI as tools directed by humans rather than sent in things with their own free will which they do not have in my
17:04opinion then I think we'll come up with much better liability frameworks. There is an incentive for business to say I didn't do it my row AI did it. Blame my AI but that makes as much sense am I saying I didn't damage the wall my hammer did it so sue my hammer. That makes no sense to me.
17:20Very very quickly we have maybe time for one quick question. Swami G we had your session earlier probably one of the blockbuster sessions of the day and for those of you who weren't there for uh Swami G's session he was one of the the leaders from around the world who were flown into the anthropic headquarters in San Francisco to have a conversation about consciousness sentience how all of these things are coming into our data sets Andrew so if you could very quickly
17:48give us your biggest takeaway from there and I'd love Andrew to be able to respond respond to what your biggest takeaway was. NDA allowing you of course.
17:57Yeah, I think that's exactly a question both that was in my mind and thank you for letting me ask the question. So Andrew, what do you make of the efforts of these companies especially anthropic um to focus on uh AI ethics alignment and you know make a the big deal about the dangers of AI uh Claude's moral constitution. How much of it is genuine and the way to go forward a light for
18:25the rest of the industry to follow or how much I was listening carefully to your take on uh how these companies want regulators to clamp down how scaremongering can actually boost the AI investment. So how would you evaluate anthropics efforts and especially cloud's moral constitution?
18:44Thank you. Well, you know, but so I I I know uh actually I think I might be the only person on the planet that both Dario and Sam has worked for. So I know them well, but I don't want to speak about specific company, but I I think a lot of what you just said is true. Um there's strong financial incentives from multiple businesses to try to get governments to pass anti-competitive regulation. There are strong incentives to hype up AI fears. At the same time, there's important engineing work to be done to corral the AI systems. Maybe just to touch on one thing. Um, it turns
19:13out that one of the reasons people worry about AI is because we can't control them perfectly. But for many engineered things, we can't control them perfectly either. So, I flew on an airplane here and yeah, we can't control airplanes perfectly, but by repeatedly injuring them to be safer and safer, finding problems, fixing them, finding problems, fixing them, and doing that over and over, we cannot control airplanes pretty well to make sure they are safe. So, we are now in the middle of that process with AI. Um, and I'm confident we'll make a lot of progress. Until then,
19:42these attempts to ask us to ascribe AI with a soul, but where the AI agents are really under the large control of a single corporate entity, that doesn't seem to make sense to me because we really have wonderful tools to control them not perfectly, but you know, decently well, and the tools will improve as we keep working on it.
20:01Andrew, thank you for that. We have a trillion dollar, multi-trillion dollar question that I have to ask you personally. Are you calling it are you still calling it artificial intelligence or have we moved on to super intelligence?
20:12You know I uh I I don't know I think the term AI is here to stay but uh hey I think uh few few call whatever they want to.
20:20Absolutely. And in the spirit of that cander and democracy and and all things AI and so much consciousness and sentience we've covered a lot of ground. Thank you Andrew for making it to the NDTV World Summit and thank you for being a fabulous audience. Thank you.