0:00My thesis is that every company needs to start thinking and operating like a labs team.
0:05Every company definitely needs a set of people, a team. Their job is to be at the frontier. They're the people who have like eight $200 a month subscriptions on everything.
0:14Everyone has to get really good at trying a bunch of stuff with the latest models, figuring out what is now possible before your competition does, before a startup comes and eats your lunch.
0:23You've got to try to create a space where weird things can grow. If you look at the history of a large company who starts a lab, the lab is usually ineffective and fizzles out after about 3 to four years. You can't just nestle this under an existing business unit. It [music] has to have its own kind of independence.
0:41You've seen more ideas thrown at the wall and tried and prototyped than maybe anyone else. What are some patterns of where the best ideas come from?
0:49They very rarely come from design sprints. They don't come in conventional places. You can't microwave good ideas.
0:55What skills are you finding are trending up in value?
1:00I'm actually looking a lot right now for people. What's their unlearning rate?
1:03How fast can they learn something and then walk away from it?
1:06What's something that might surprise people about what product market fit looks like?
1:10When you're showing people early prototypes, you're looking at people's eyes. That is the metric.
1:16What are signs that it's time to kill an idea?
1:18The team usually knows before the leader knows.
1:22Today, my guest is Josh Woodward. Josh is head of Google Labs, the Gemini app, and AI Studio. He's been at Google for over 16 years, and his job is to experiment with and scale new AI products. My premise for this conversation, and why I believe it is so valuable, is that every company is being forced to think and operate like a labs team. Because what is now possible is changing so quickly. You have to get very good at playing with the latest technologies, running tons of experiments, and uncovering new
1:52opportunities before your competition or startups do. Josh runs the longest lasting and biggest labs team in [music] the world. And he shares a ton of very specific lessons about where the best ideas come from, how to know when to quit an idea, what it looks like when you have product market fit, what skills are becoming more valuable in today's era, why roles aren't actually blurring into one builder role, and so much more, including some spicy stuff. A huge thank you to Steven Johnson, Sophie Miller, Jeff Hong, and Logan Kilpatrick for
2:21suggesting topics and questions for this conversation. Before we get into it, I've noticed a lot of people don't finish the episodes, which is totally fine, but you end up missing the best stuff. [music] So, to help you, I've created a new Lenny's Most Replayed Moments YouTube channel that is exactly that, the most rewatched and shared segments from our long- form episodes. Check it out and subscribe at lennispodcast.com/mosre replayed moments. There's also a link in the description. With that, I bring you
2:54Josh, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. So great to be here. It's even better to have you here. I want to first lay out the premise for this conversation and I want to get your take if you agree with this.
3:06Yeah. Yeah. Sounds good.
3:07Worldview. So my thesis is that every company is needs to start thinking and operating like a labs team because the underlying tech that we're all building on is changing so fast. Which means what we can do is changing so fast. Which means that now everyone has to get really good at trying a bunch of stuff with the latest models and basically uh figuring out what is now possible before your competition does, before a startup comes and eats your lunch. And so it
3:36feels like the skills that will matter more and more now are things that you all have gotten really good at, which is finding great ideas, figuring out how to run a ton of experiments, figuring out what to double down on, uh building teams that can operate this way, at at the same time not distracting the rest of the company from all the shiny stuff and letting them focus. So broadly, uh how do you does that resonate?
3:58Yeah, I I think your premise is spot on.
4:00Um I think the devil's in the details with all those things you just said. So I think what's easy for you know in some ways every startup is a lab and the real question is like how do you bring some of that same methodology ideas energy excitement into bigger teams or even medium-sized teams. Um but I absolutely think it's needed and then the question is yeah how do you build that environment and nurture and cultivate the kind of both ideas but also the
4:28people uh that can really thrive there.
4:31Awesome. Okay that's exactly what we're going to talk about.
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5:44So, I'm going to start with coming up with ideas, finding great ideas. If you were to reflect back on the best ideas that emerged out of labs and even in Google in general, what are what are some patterns of where the best ideas come from?
5:58Yeah, it's interesting because a lot of them I wish there was an answer in the back of the book where there was one thing the maybe one observation Lenny is there the they come from a variety of places. So one lesson I've always felt is like you always have to be watching for something that catches your eye. Maybe we come back to that in a second.
6:17They very rarely, at least in my experience, have come from design sprints or times where you set aside on a calendar, okay, this is where we're going to go come up with our next idea.
6:26They usually come when people are swimming in the hallway, maybe on a weekend, oh, often over a break, a lot of our labs teams will be hacking and building on stuff and they just can't help themselves and they'll come back and or they'll share a video and be like, look at this amazing thing. Um, so I think one lesson is like always on alert. Second lesson is like they don't come in conventional places. You can't microwave good ideas. And maybe that leads to a third thing I've seen is
6:55sometimes it's about less about the idea and who are the interesting people and more importantly what are their interesting little side projects and passion things and like creating the chemistry around that because usually what we found at least in labs over the last four or five years is that all these ideas whether they're notebook or flow or AI studio or Google beam or any of this stuff they get started like very small groups of people who are just obsessed and usually very curious about
7:23something and they just won't stop. Um, and so they you kind of like how do you kind of create a space where that can happen and then kind of be on alert to like catch it and try to like you know funnel it funnel it forward.
7:36So what I'm hearing here is interestingly not like design sprints. Uh I didn't hear brainstorm meetings in there as a place good good ideas come from.
7:43Yeah. Um, is there an example maybe because you know like someone listening to this I'm I'm trying to think about what can they take from this to find to help them find great ideas say they're a startup founder or at a big company playing with the latest models. Um, what are some like the conditions that you find most help?
8:00Yes. Yes. I mean one thing we try to do a lot and I think this would apply in any of those situations is like how do you get yourself to the frontier and that can be both with like playing with the models but also just watching what are the types of experiences that have just become possible where we have a phrase on the team we talk about what's almost possible and we just have a list actually [clears throat] where we're trying to track those things and when one crosses over it's almost like a phase shift when something goes from
8:29like solid to gas or liquid to gas or something. You're like, "Oo, that just became possible." I saw one of these two days ago and I can't stop thinking about it.
8:38Are you able to tell us or it's a uh maybe soon, [laughter] but it's like you you kind of if you're at the frontier playing with the models watching what's happening and you kind of have this list, then when you see something, whether it's on X or wherever, then you're like, "Okay, that just now has become possible." Um, and then we try to think about how do we get a team around that and just go. Uh, and so that may be as you're kind of in startup land if you're thinking or maybe you're starting to pitch ideas to VCs or
9:08whatever. That's kind of how I'd be trying to think about. And then of course tech alone isn't enough, you've got to kind of match that to an interesting user problem. And ideally, if you can put those together in a way that's so good, people will pay for it.
9:20That's kind of the combination of things we start looking for uh pretty early. So that's an interesting tactic there is make a list of what is almost possible and then watch for okay wow this is now possible let's explore this now yeah that's right is there anything on that list you can share of things that are not yet possible but almost possible that you're waiting for watching for well maybe I I can share a few areas I because I think how we think about it in labs is we um we have kind of a kind of a bit of a thought experiment we go through where
9:50we're like what is the future of a certain thing going to look like so the future of software design and development or the future of creativity, the future of work or knowledge. Um, one area we're watching very close right now is just like what is the future of entertainment going to look like? And this whole idea around immersive entertainment is super interesting just at a technical level for many reasons, but also you think about just kind of the user sort of behaviors and like what
10:17does entertainment look like last year, this year versus next year or maybe in three years. Um, and so that's one where we've got a whole list underneath that where we're like, oo, okay, well, if a model can get to this kind of latency and this amount of languages in this amount of modality, you you can start to kind of think through what would be interesting from the tech side. And then we do a lot of work in labs around where are just behaviors and trends going. And
10:45for that, some of it, of course, you can kind of study in the Bay Area, but for a lot of our teams, I'm always thinking about how do we get way outside the Bay Area. Um, and thinking about where are the other cities, the classrooms, the the other places to kind of like like almost like mine for ideas and these behavioral changes.
11:05So, an interesting takeaway here is this. You're not just waiting for inspiration to strike. You're doing a lot of pre-work to think about here's what is almost working. Here's where we think the future might be going. Here's areas that are going to be ripe for disruption.
11:19That's right. Yeah. In this doc I talked about, we have um 82 predictions that all begin with we believe the future is or we predict. Um this is dangerous ever to make one prediction, let alone 82.
11:32So, but I think you have to almost have a point of view about the future knowing that nine out of 10 or maybe 9.9 out of 10 you're going to be wrong. But I think that's one of the things we really try to cultivate in the team is how do we chase the future? That's one of the values and sort of trying to chase it.
11:48You almost have to throw yourself out there and try to live in it a little bit.
11:52What are signs to you that an idea is worth pursuing when you're in the shower, you have this idea. What's a sign that okay, that's worth betting on, at least for to start with. And what's often just like a false false signal like okay, no, that's actually not going to work.
12:04Yeah. I think one thing for me, especially when you've got these lists going and you're thinking about the future, when you see something that surprises you or maybe that's very interesting to you in a certain way and if you can describe it to yourself like this thing I saw about 48 hours ago, I was I left that sort of demo and I thought this is so exciting. [laughter] Um, and I think that's maybe a signal I use a little bit is like trying to be at
12:34the frontier and then what makes me interested or excited and then feeding off that kind of with the team together.
12:40I feel like that's too that bar is too low these days because everything is so magical and like or it's the opposite now everything okay great this thing is doing my taxes for me of course that's just the way yeah yeah I think this is one of the things obviously that excitement is maybe a tech thing and yeah there's dazzling demos every other day or every other hour right now but then I think trying to think through where's the user behavior maybe that is like universal or maybe there is some shift on that side and then the way we think about
13:08monetization too is like can you get to a group of people that are just going to like can't live without it like they literally will pay you because it's so valuable to them and then kind of how you can kind of put those pieces together. But yeah, sometimes it's got to come from one of those areas I would say.
13:24Is there a great example or story of a product that emerged in this way?
13:28Yeah, I mean the fir I remember still the first time I heard the first like notebook LM podcast exactly where I was standing it was right outside this room.
13:37Um, and it was probably at like 6:30 p.m. on a Tuesday or something and there were two people on the team who came over and were like, "You got to listen to this." And it was the proceedings of the British Parliament debates. Um, not known for its riveting material, but these two AI hosts were talking about it in a way that was was literally interesting. And that that was one where we're like, we got to just do something with this. And that was one. I remember
14:05the first time when I saw something come out of Google Flow. We had a project before that called Whisk where you could whisk together multiple images and then start to animate them. And it was a level of control and creative kind of channeling that had never been possible that I kind of made it was like that accessible. Um so maybe those are two examples. We also have other examples where we get excited, we try to build some product, it's just not good. So, um, you know, that's the other thing is
14:34a little bit of like a game of numbers in this as well.
14:37Let's talk about product market fit and signs that something's actually working.
14:41I feel like you've seen more ideas thrown at the wall and tried and prototype than maybe anyone else. I don't know if that's true, but it feels true. What are what are signs to you that this is something we need to double down on? And what's what's something that might surprise people about what about what product market fit looks like? Yeah, I think one of the maybe trickiest parts of it is it is way more art than science. I wish it was science.
15:08like we know how to run science experiments, make datadriven decisions, set OKRs, like all this process that helps like um sometimes in the early days, Lenny, it's literally a couple of people on the team who might just have conviction and they're just like, I think the future is going to look like this and I don't I can't explain it.
15:29That's what's hard to like that advice is just not that useful or helpful. But I would say that's some of it. I think maybe a little more useful. Uh we talk a lot about how do we get outside the building and just show people prototypes. And when you're showing people early prototypes, what I'm always doing in those is you're looking at people's eyes and like that is the metric like uh it is not a Dow is not a Dow over a MAU. It's not a D7 retent.
15:57It's none of that. Um it's literally like hey like Lenny did you see this? Uh what do you think about this? And like if your eyes kind of light up, if you lean in, these are the kind of signals you're looking for at the early days.
16:10Maybe the third thing I would say, and this one's also maybe on the flip side of your question, is like the people who get excited about things, usually we try to kind of think about what's the problem we're falling in love with, not the product. Because what I found is it takes three, four, five pivots before you either got something or you're just like that's it, didn't work. Um, so I think when people fall in love with an actual product solution
16:39first, it's going to, at least in my experience, lead to a bad time. Uh, so that's the other thing I think we try to think a lot about. And usually people talk about PMF, you sort of know it when you have it. I think that's true. Um, in the last, I don't know, year or so, when Nana Banana went viral on Gemini, when the Notebook LM podcasts have gone, when stuff's happened on Flow or Stitch or other kind of projects that have kind of had these mini moments, um, you're literally just swarming it and holding
17:09on for dear life. And it is both like so exhausting and so fun. Um, but yeah, you you almost have to take a lot of shots, I would say. And in the early days again it's it feels a little more art passion driven than than science unfortunately.
17:25Those are actually very concrete specific things to look for. Uh the eyes what eyes light up. Uh a way I've heard someone else describe this is their pupils dilate.
17:37That's right. And you know too right when you're talking to someone if they're having a good time, if they're into it or if they're just bored out of their mind and you're you know showing them some dumb product. So it's it's really like can you hit a nerve with like a pain point in their life where they're just like I want that. And I mean that's what that's what makes this job so fun is trying to figure out how how many of those nerves you can hit.
17:58So having that context of it's clear when things are product market fitting and there's eyes are lighting up. What are signs that it's time to kill an idea?
18:09Yeah. One of the things on this one and I talked a lot to the team about this too is sometimes a team is looking for hey the leader Nita makes makes the decision and that's kind of where it comes from. What I found is the opposite. The team usually knows before the leader knows and the signs are like does the passion start to run out? Does you've tried everything you can think of and it just it's just not working. like and people know when like a project's not working or a relationship's not
18:37working like you know that's something that people see and so I think what as a leader what I try to do say in labs or even some of our features in Gemini is like how do you create an environment where people can ask those uncomfortable questions and be able to say like hey I don't think this is working and yesterday just as an example we had a feature we were really excited about in Gemini we were going to launch and we got some of the early data back people went out looked in the eyes and it just wasn't there. And so I was so proud of
19:06the PM on the team because she was like, I don't think we should launch this.
19:10It's not good. Um, and so I replied all was like, "This is great. Thank you for doing this." Uh, and so it's like, how do you create a culture where the team can call both like good things and bad things out? And I guess in that way, as a leader, in my case, I I trust the team a lot. Um, because they're the ones every day trying to make this thing go.
19:30And I think if they're like, "Hey, it's not going." Then it's like, "All right, that's okay. Let's pivot. Let's do something different."
19:35Uh, I have to ask you this question. I was gonna ask it later, but I'm so curious. It's so interesting that you oversee labs, which is 0ero to1 experiments, try stuff that's totally new. And then Gemini, the Gemini app, which is one of the most popular apps in the world with probably a billion users.
19:51Uh, why how did that come to be? Why is that the structure under your team?
19:55Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess in some ways they are very different ends of the scale. You're right, Gemini. Over a billion users. It's global. Like labs, you know, we joke on labs.
20:06Sometimes our early projects, the zero to one stuff, you know, we we'll get so excited about 10,000 mouse and like most other products dashboards don't count that low. So this is kind of the joke on the team. But I think maybe there's a few common pieces though, even though the scale is different. I think one the type of people that are attracted to these things even Gemini despite its size is very much got a zero to one heartbeat um all over it and so I think
20:35part of it is like the type of builder the type of person you're attracting these like blurring lines between what what it takes two we're all like AI kind of nuts and maniacs we love this stuff like we we we can't get enough of it we're building all the time um the third one though I would say is like a little bit of everyone on the team. We talk a little bit about like the order of how we think about our priorities and we like the mantra on the team is like users first, Google second and like our
21:05product third and so like labs third or Gemini third and I think that unites us too and that's like we don't try to do things like for our own team we're very much part of team Google but also ultimately it's like is someone loving this on the end other end of this product? Um, and so that does kind of tie it all together, but they are on Yeah. different ends of the spectrum for sure on terms of size like conventional numbers.
21:29Yeah, it's quite confusing as an outsider, but I get it. Um, is is everything you're doing in labs now AI based? Is there anything non AI driven in labs now?
21:40Yeah, it's um it's all AI driven right now for sure. when we started, you know, four or five years ago, we had a few other areas we were exploring and we kind of made the call, at least for the foreseeable future, go allin um on AI.
21:52We we don't just do software stuff though. I mean, Google Beam is one of the projects we're working on is like this incredible kind of magic mirror that kind of can create like a 3D version. We should get you one. Um I'll take where you can kind of talk to someone almost like they're a hologram on the other side. Yeah. Uh so we are we're exploring kind of other adjacent things to AI like you know you could consider that almost like AI hardware in a way. I I will take it. Thank you. I'll send you my address. [laughter]
22:22So it feels like consumer right now is in a really fun place where there's always been the sense of like consumer's dead. There's nothing you can do.
22:29Facebook got Google, you know, like there there's no way to compete against these juggernauts that have taken the consumer world. But AI feels like it's unlocking a lot of opportunity in consumer. I'm curious what your hypothesis is for where the next where a major breakthrough might happen in a consumer app.
22:45Yeah, I I feel like consumer is one of the most like exciting competitive all the things happening right now. So it feels completely opposite to me uh from that kind of view. Um a couple of areas I think that are kind of interesting. I mean, one, I think there's a big question, we talked a little bit earlier of just like where's entertainment going to go? Um, are we going to be looking at like different types of feeds forever or
23:13are there ways that this technology can bring us maybe closer together in the real world or do things with other people? I mean, there's different views on where that could go. Is it like more around bots or more around people? Um, and so I think that's a very interesting space. Um I think we're watching right before us now like the entire kind of messaging chat space felt like hey that was sort of maybe solved. There's lots of different experiments happening on that right now both inside Google and
23:42outside. Um so that feels like a whole another area that maybe is like no longer as fixed as it once felt. Um, and then maybe the third one I would throw out is I still feel like going back again to the problems like what are some of the big problems people face in the world? And I think like um you know what are things that are super scarce? Time on earth, how much money people have and how they can save money. Um these kind of memories or like experiences that
24:11people can have kind of IRL together and that kind of thing. So I do feel like there's maybe like new consumer products to be built uh that can go after a lot of that stuff that you know whether it takes the form factor of a a chatbot or a personal agent or whatever that's going to look like I think is kind of yet to be invented in a lot of ways.
24:31Okay. Let me ask you a spicy question along these lines. I'm so curious to get your take. So, it feels like every every uh AI assistant app that's launching these days basically sucks in Gmail and Google Calendar and Docs, all the Google data, all this juicy Google stuff. Uh connects and does all these magical things with it within Google. I cannot do any of these things. It's so hard to build anything uh like there's first of all, you may be working on AI assistant,
25:01but there's nothing there yet as far as I can see. And then just generally it feels like everyone's just taken all this juicy data and doing magical things with it and Google hasn't. What is what's kept you guys from doing something like that? Is like privacy concerns? Is it works bureaucracy stuff?
25:17Is it coming? What what can you say?
25:19Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So um there's parts of it out there today like if you're in Gemini in Gemini Spark, you can actually connect all that stuff and it's quite powerful. I think where we're iterating on that though is we've been in a world where even if you look at some of the other competitors there different modes almost that you go into and I think the lesson even from the last couple of weeks is forget the modes and toggles just like one prompt
25:47box tell it what you want and it just does stuff for you. So that that's definitely where not only where we're headed where others are are headed. I think that's kind of a broader almost like UX simplification happening across the industry. Um on the the data bits there, um it's interesting because actually one of the main things uh people will ping me about or others is like, "Oh man, Google, I've got all my stuff with you. Just make the thing work." Um and there's a lot of
26:16reluctance actually to be connecting it to a lot of other sort of competitor products. So watch this space. we hear you loud and clear. Um, there's a lot of work if you go online and just look under kind of personal intelligence is sort of the way we think about this stuff is like you want a Gemini that is personal, proactive, powerful um that sort of works for you. And so that that's been the vision uh for the last
26:43kind of year or so uh that we're we're headed towards. And there's a lot of stuff we're playing with right now that'll be will be out soon.
26:51All right. I'm excited. It just feels like yeah like I have so many little schedules and things running within my email. I'm just like man why why didn't Google just doing this? Uh it does does feel that the advantage you all have is distribution. So once something happens similar to Muse recently it's going to be very easy to grow it and convince people to use it similar uh to you know within like AI mode. So anyway okay I'm excited. Things are happening.
27:16[laughter] Things are definitely happening.
27:19What do you think? So kind of going a different direction. What do you think's uh underhyped in AI right now and what do you think is overhyped if anything is overhyped?
27:28Oh yeah. Yeah. Um you know underhyped I I was thinking a lot about this over the summer. I ended up writing kind of a doc internally just around like labs principles of like how and almost like why are we building what we build? And so maybe the underhyped thing is more of a discussion around principles, values, sort of I I believe very strongly whether you're at Google or a startup founder or anywhere in between, you you
27:56speak through your products and your products actually represent and almost encode those principles. And so I wish there was a lot more discussion in the industry happening around that. Um and sort of what what kinds of things do we want to build? what kind of future do we want? Uh so anyway, that would be my underhyped one. Um because I think uh yeah, there could be more of that. I think the overhyped one um I think I've been saying this maybe for a year now, but I still think it's overhyped. Model
28:28And I still uh you know, a lot of friends and a lot of labs and everyone's still looking at the same set of benchmarks for the most part. Um, but I think um, you know, where I'm grew up and where I'm from and I guess how I think about product development is like most people in the world are never ever ever going to care about an ELO rating.
28:47They may not even know how to pronounce ELO. It's like, do you know what? Like it just doesn't matter. And so that's where I kind of get back to kind of like a lot of I feel like the talk in AI right now is about speeds and feeds and benchmarks and these are proxies obviously for kind of where things are and capabilities and but I still feel like sometimes as an industry it can kind of over over rotate to that and kind of lose sight of like why is this useful to someone and what's like the product or the feature that's going to
29:16deliver like real value to like help people. So anyway, those would be my overunders.
29:21Yeah. And it's also along those lines.
29:22It's always it's also hard to know what what what is better. Like how do you know what what's going on? Like you have this new model. It's the best model ever. It's like in practice it's not that much different than the previous model that also everyone thought was the best model ever. We have AGI every every time there's a model launch. We have AGI now. And so like the benchmarks like are trying to show you here's where it's better. But but if you didn't like you're just sitting there. Okay. This is okay. This is better. I like what it's doing here. Yeah, I think this is also though where um I feel like a lot of
29:52folks that like follow you and listen to you is like please please please think of amazing products like because ultimately all these model capabilities and benchmarks and all the intelligence gets translated into just like can you build something people want and so to me it's like what a time to be alive as a product person um because you have kind of this like huge menu of things that were almost possible that are now possible more and more with each passing week. The first uh point you made there was u something that came up recently
30:21with a uh in a conversation with Tara from OpenAI about how now that we could just build everything and AI has so many opinions about where to go. What you said is exactly right which is what do we want the world to look like? What do we want the what is the vision of the future we want not okay we can do all these things that's great let's maybe we don't need to do all these things right so I think that's a really important point there. Yeah, definitely.
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31:36What skills are you finding are trending up in value in the people that you're working with and what do you feel are trending down when you look at people are doing really well now? What are the kind of the attributes and skills of those people versus things that are maybe less important now?
31:53Yeah, I feel like there's a whole lot out there on taste and judgment and vibe coding and all of that. I guess the things I'm looking for I'm always trying to find like what are the mispriced signals and so like one I think is um how we'll hear sometimes people talk about like what's someone's like learning rate like do they have a growth mindset what's their learning rate I'm actually looking a lot right now for people what's their unlearning rate like how fast can they learn something and
32:22then walk away from it um based on maybe what they're seeing when they test their product or something. unlearning rate is one. Um, another one I'm interested in, I read a book a year or so ago, um, about Roger Federer, the amazing tennis player, and there was this phrase in there about Federer had explosive endurance. It's just this beautiful turn of phrase and uh with the alliteration everything but it's like there there's something around like how are people
32:51taking care of themselves and the people around them where they can go really hard and that's the like explosive part but they can do it over a while and they find ways to kind of pace themselves and labs we have kind of you know we have like seasons of labs where we talk about this so I think that explosive endurance this unlearning rate Um, and then maybe another one I would say is like as much as you know coding and other things are
33:19becoming maybe trending towards like you being able to direct lots of agents and not having to work with as many people.
33:27I still feel like collaboration and like how you work with people matters even more now. And um one of the things we look a lot for is like can someone kind of blend and bridge these worlds where they're like incredible collaborator with an agent or a swarm of agents but also with people. And I guess what we believe on the labs team and on the Gemini team is that like there's still just so much joy in working with people.
33:55And so like but it's like how do you find the right chemistry? And so maybe one thing I'd say there is like people that can build trust, that can scale trust, that that underpins any kind of great collaboration. And so that's another maybe signal I'm always looking for is like how fast can this person kind of build trust with people uh and sort of create that kind of environment if that makes sense.
34:18Yeah, these are so interesting. on that last one is that is that kind of a mer a growing emerging even more important skill you finding with rise of AI and I'm curious why I think so for a couple of reasons I mean I would say one maybe is like uniquely Google it's a larger organization so you've got to be able to kind of do that but the ones that don't feel uniquely Google um one it feels like as the execution cost of making products goes down we'll be able to make more products which you may make the
34:47same products with the same people but I think there's a lot more you probably see this too is just like uh people will team up with different people to make stuff. And so it's very interesting when we're thinking about like almost like fielding a new team for a labs project.
35:01We used to say like it's about five to seven people. Now it's about two to three people. Uh maybe four. Uh but it's kind of like those people just kind of almost you can almost imagine like super talented musicians who team up with different people and then they play different songs together. The songs of the products but it's like that is like those are the MVPs in labs where you can be like hey drop this sort of PM but that can also code and design because
35:31all the roles are blurring with kind of other people and kind of see how they jam on stuff together. So I think that's where my prediction is that skill will almost increase in importance uh because there will be more products and because there'll be more of this kind of like free agents kind of jamming on stuff together.
35:46Along those lines I imagine you have been pulling designers, engineers, npms into labs and they kind of all kind of work together and sometimes different functions take leads. Is there has there been a shift in who you find is most uh impactful and successful in leading product ideas labs teams in terms of the ratio of PM versus design for NGE for example like our PM's becoming more valuable or becoming more valuable something like that?
36:14Yeah, it's interesting. We've been studying this a lot and actually testing a lot of this too. Um, I would say in general, PM happens to be the function maybe by nature because it's a bit more horizontal. That feels like it's maybe been able to adapt to some of the other functions faster. Uh, and we see this when we'll run little builder pilots across the company. Um, that comes back is like, oh yeah, that that's like maybe I don't want to say it's easier, but maybe it's PMs are more accustomed to
36:44like, all right, I'm in this meeting. I got to simulate something as a lawyer or as a BD person or as a sales, do you know what I mean? So like I think in some way maybe there's some inherentness and like who selects into that. So that definitely is true. But I would say um our best people can kind of come from any function. And though I would also even widen it, Lenny, we're seeing like strategy and ops people and BD people and marketing people, you know, kind of be like builders in labs and they are
37:12really good and u I think what maybe this is another overhyped underhyped thing. I think right now um people are maybe overhyping like everybody's a builder and it's just this new job function and everything's kind of the same. I actually feel like well at least what we're seeing is that people still have their specialty. It's like their major or minor in college or something.
37:35And I feel like there's a risk if everybody becomes a builder that you lose a lot of respect and appreciation and obviously the expertise that comes from those specialties. And so I think when we set up teams, even though we may be like this is more of like a builder crew, we're still thinking about like where are the specialties and that ends up being super important as well.
37:58I completely agree. You know, like Yeah, I like that. I like this metaphor of the major and minor. That's a really fun way to think about it. Like you can be better at building, but you're still your like your PM skills are still like the primary thing you're amazing at.
38:10Definitely. And I think that's the advice we give especially to a lot of new PMs on the teams like APMs or people earlier in their career is it's great you're vi coding and you're making all these prototypes but do that in service of becoming an exceptional extraordinary PM and like don't lose that major like that's what you need to hone uh especially when you're early on.
38:30I love the way you described it where PMs are really good at simulating other functions such as like an AI way of thinking about Yeah. Yeah. collaborating and this idea of explosive endurance. Uh someone tweeted this recently. They're like what's what's so called when it's both a marathon and a sprint.
38:47It's [laughter] that like talk to Roger Federer. Yeah. Yeah.
38:51And I feel like everyone's in that right now. That's just like a constant theme and trend on this podcast and just in tech right now is just everyone's in this marathon plus sprint mode.
39:00Man, I guess is there anything that you do to help people deal with that because it feels like it's non-stop.
39:06Yeah. Yeah, I mean one of the things we try to do and I mentioned it a little bit earlier but I can unpack it some is like we think of kind of like seasons in labs and like can we think about you know at any given point there's 20 or 30 experiment you know running simultaneously but for each individual little team trying to kind of create a little bit of like milestones or like a rhythm to the work and there's sometimes like it is just flat out fullon and we try to maybe the best lesson I've
39:35learned as a leader is almost to sort of name that, declare that, you know, people opt in or opt out of that. Um, but also be very clear when a team is not in that mode. And I think is like how do you try to architect almost like a a rhythm to the year where it's like, hey, we've got a big model coming. These five products are super important to showcase this model. We think this model will propel them. Like U5 is like it is explosive time. Do you know what I mean?
40:03Um and so it's like trying to create a common language around that which is sometimes in a lot of ways like PMs sometimes can be very effective if they can come up with like what is the sort of shorthand or the common language and so we we actually put a lot of thought into that too of like all right you all are on right now whereas after they go through that we may be like say after like a Google IO a lot of labs teams will sprint after IO June is like hey just go
40:30hack go rediscover what's new go just go build like have fun and then it's so interesting Lenny because the instinct or the like temptation is like oh man it's June it's like unproductive we're not shipping and it's like no actually those are where all the new seeds are coming from for like the next season do you know what I mean and so it's like trying to think through the rhythm of that is is one way we try to do it I don't think we always get it right though by the way I think and I think one of the things we're talking a lot on
41:00the team is I guess in the past people would talk about like work life balance and there were other ways this conversation got framed. I think what we're why I like things like explosive endurance or concepts like that is like we want to be doing this as a team for many many years. And so it's like you can't just like empty the tank in 9 months and just like kill yourself, right? So it's like you have to you have to have a view towards the long term but also recognize the moment you're in is is fast.
41:27I love the tactic of just naming it, having a lot of power and just making it clear this is the mode we're in now.
41:33And something I found is the opposite also is too is dangerous. When you have too little to do and too little stress and too little pedal on the metal, people get bored and start looking for other jobs. They're just like this sucks.
41:45Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's um there's always something there though.
41:49You're right. of like we we talk on the team a little bit of like never waste an event or like a date or you you can think about even as a startup like where's that moment you want to intersect with something in the world and um you know whether that for us is a Google IO or a model release or whatever I think that's always healthy to be thinking about I got a question the other day on Gemini they're like what what's our two-year roadmap and I was like uh we have a six-month road mapap on this thing like we have a multi-year
42:17vision but I think they the the world has changed so much too. Some of it is like the thing I saw two days ago is now a project that happened in 48 hours. You you can't plan for that in a way and so that's the other element you almost have to recognize in the moment.
42:32Yeah. So along those lines, how has planning changed in the past couple years? Like you guys are different from the rest of Google because everything is new and but just what have you seen in terms of timelines and time frames shift in planning with the rise of AI? Yeah, we usually are thinking, you know, somewhere on the order of about six months. And usually I say that because that's that almost possible window where, you know, you assume every lab is cranking out some new pre pre-training model a couple times a year. There's like individual points in between. So
43:00you kind of have an overall cadence of like where the models are and then I think we're almost imagining in about a hundred days usually we always think about where can you move your product like meaningfully forward. um our best labs team all they all do that they'll go from like idea to some meaningful milestone in like 50 to 100 days and part of that is also like how do you design a culture and an environment where you unblock a lot of stuff so you can just let people cook and so that's
43:29the that's the other part of is like kind of creating that environment but that we think about planning is kind of almost like rolling six months maybe is to answer your question so I had this uh Lenny and friends summit it was uh last week of the today we're recording this and Dan Shipper gave this really interesting talk about how to build where the tech is just constantly changing underneath you and his advice is to have a frontier team that's dedicated to testing out the new stuff and basically it's their job try all the new stuff report on what we need
43:58to pay attention to so that the rest of the company can not have to be distracted and focus on on you know the task at hand how do you feel about that as a model for companies I think every company definitely needs a set of people, a team, however you want to manifest it, that is their job is to be at the frontier and they're almost like if they haven't heard about the latest hot thing viral on X in the last 24 hours is like what are you doing at your job? You know what I mean? Like so
44:26I think there's definitely an element of like you want people plugged in to like the hive mind of kind of how people are building and thinking in all the model releases. Um they're the people who have like eight $200 a month subscriptions on everything. Do you know what I like so you have to kind of architect the organization where that can exist. I think the second thing though that's just as important is the environment of which those people can build. And so that's like the other maybe like part of that. And then I think the third part
44:56which is honestly where if you look at the history and I've I've read a bunch of books on this because most like if you just look at the data a large company who starts a lab the lab is usually ineffective and fizzles out after about 3 to four years or they have duration but the company can never commercialize the things coming out of the lab. And so you get things like someone comes by and sees the future and then they do it as a separate company or whatever, right? And there's like famous
45:24examples throughout history of that. And so I think there is this interesting balance of like can you have a team of people who live at the frontier like Dan says who are building frontier things but can somehow bridge or connect across the bigger company in a way that it's not oh that's just some weird R&D group always coming up with like gimmicks and toys. Do you know what I mean? And so I think it takes a certain person or a certain set of people who can actually
45:54be like, "Hey, that thing looks like a toy right now. That's going to be essential to our future in five years."
45:59And that's actually where at least studying history where sometimes these frontier ideas fall short. You can get the first two things right and then fail on the third one and then the whole thing really doesn't matter. Do you know what I mean?
46:12Yeah. It's interesting. I was just like even Anthropic has a labs team like the most cutting edge company they're you know just like at the frontier already they're like okay but we also need a labs team to actually watch the frontier frontier. Yeah that's right. Well, one thing we joke about too inside as labs has grown now and we've had a few projects thankfully have kind of hit and are you know lots of users now and growing we've actually internally to this point of like common language what
46:39we started to find was a bigger project like notebook in terms of users or flow or AI studio or these things that are like kind of grown out of labs um they were in some ways there's a risk they crowd out the zero to one stuff and so the terms we've started started using is like there's zero to one labs, there's one to 10 labs, and there's like 10 to 100. And these may not be like mean anything to your audience, but to us, we actually kind of encoded like
47:08these are different stages of like the lab's life cycle. And we want all of these products to have this like innovative energy that's common. But inside each of those stages, there's very different challenges and very different things you're optimizing for.
47:21And in zero to one, you're looking at eyeballs like we talked about. and maybe 10 to 100 you're looking at like waterfalls and CPAs and thinking about like how are we actually converting people to like these like magic moments in the product and it's a scaling game in a lot of way someone listening is convinced they should set up a frontier team a lapse team and it feels like laps teams have evolved a little bit used to be like build the next big business unit is like the idea here it's like okay what's like a new technology that is
47:50unlocking something our core business like I I wonder if that's true but that's what it feels like to But I guess just with that in mind, what are maybe three tips for someone that's wants to set up a lapse team internally?
48:01Yeah, I think one, you got to try to create a space where weird things can grow and you can't just nestle this like under an existing business unit. it has to have its own kind of independence uh is one and that in some companies that means it needs to report to the CEO or it needs to report into enough of a distance in a way um and we can go into that if you want but that's super important I think the second thing is is
48:30a set of people and in the case of us this was this users first Google second labs third thinking where the job of the lab is to make users successful and make Google success successful. It's not to make itself successful.
48:46And so there's a bit of a maybe a humility or a collaboration or kind of this mindset of like what does success look like? And I think for us how we've broken that down and how I would encourage companies to think about it is like is your goal of this lab to graduate things to existing products or is your goal to go invent new product lines and categories? And in our case, we started and it was a graduation lab and it's expanded over time as we've started to realize AI really transforms
49:14and blurs a lot of categories. But being very clear about like what game you're playing and what does winning or losing look like would be the second thing. So isolated in some way but also part of the same team. Um and I think the third thing and we talk about this a little bit on labs is and I could imagine for maybe CEOs listening or other kind of seauite people use your lab not just for product development or technology exploration but even for challenging how
49:43the company works and almost like the way things happen. Um and that's actually the phrase we use on the team is lab sometimes creates good trouble at Google. So there's like bad trouble you don't want to create. But good trouble, give you an example. We were one of the first teams that were like, we're seeing the job roles blur. We have to have a builder job ladder and we need to think about it differently and we should use labs as the place to pilot it before we
50:13roll it out across Google. And so that's another way you can think of like the multi-dimensionality of a lab in a way. you just like think about the processes and ways of working, not just products necessarily. That's really interesting.
50:26What about the type of people that you would put on this lab team? You mentioned this unlearning rate is a really interesting way to think about what else what do you look for and what's like a person you want to kind of avoid on the lab team.
50:35Yeah. Yeah. Great. Um man, we are we are obsessed about finding people who just like can't stop themselves from building. I mentioned that earlier. We have a whole doc on the team labs in a nutshell. Uh we have one on Gemini, too.
50:48Gemini in a nutshell, the first week someone joins the team, I email it to them, and most of them have seen it before as part of some of our hiring screening, too. They build all the time.
50:58They are intellectually curious. They're reading, they're on X, they're listening to podcasts. They are obsessed about solving people's problems, not about their own ego or glory. They are the people when you're around them, they add energy. you leave a conversation, you're like, I want to be with that person.
51:19It's like, I'll run through a wall with that person. Do you know what I mean?
51:22Um, we've got like 17 or 18 of them.
51:24Maybe I can send some of them to you after if you want if you want to include in the show notes. Uh, yeah, but it's it's um it's such an important part. And that third thing I talked about as like a tip for setting up a lab. It's not just about job ladders and stuff. It's literally about who are the people of the future that you are trying to bring in that are going to think different and challenge things different and it is it's a different type and what we've also found as these products have grown the zero to one people are different a little bit
51:52than the one to 10 and the 10 to 100 too. So it's like how do you kind of create some commonality but I I do think like you know when you're talking to someone you're looking at like in an interview if I'm talking to someone they're like hey let me show you this thing I just built instant credibility.
52:06uh or if they're like I'll ask them questions about you know unknown unstructured dark caves you know these events and like where they're like don't know what like which ways forward how do they figure it out people that are energized by that huge credibility boost um so yeah there's definitely a certain type that you're looking for in terms of the org structure what's the biggest mistake people make yeah I think you know it's actually I'll give you a live one we're talking about right now is like we're trying to figure
52:34out um how much uh you kind of isolate different sub teams and going after things versus try to create groupings of like thematic things. For example, we've talked about like interactive entertainment as like an area or like a pond we're interested in fishing in. And it's like how does that do you do that as one set of people doing that? Is like five people just take like five shots at it. Um, so that like a mistake sometimes I think is
53:03people maybe rush to a group and maybe the bias is towards like consolidate, make it clean. And I think what I've learned maybe the hard way over the years is like actually sometimes you kind of have to live in the messiness a little bit and almost like see what emerges but still be willing to kind of make those kind of changes. Those are like org design team kind of things. Um, the other change or the other thing I'd say sometimes is a common mistake in a you know you hire too many people too fast. This happens at big companies. It happens at startups too. And it's like
53:32it can be so addicting to like sometimes look at like, oh, our team doubled or tripled in the last quarter or six months or whatever. And these are just vanity metrics that are really bad most of the time. So I think that's the other thing is like a common mistake. Um I remember I was on a project years ago and we got to like 30 engineers and I was so happy and we had zero product market fit but a very inspiring vision.
53:57And you probably know where you know the outcome of how that ended basically.
54:01Uh I'm going to uh in our last few minutes I'm going to ask you a question Logan Logan Kilpatrick suggested to ask you.
54:08I think he said of AI Studio, right? I forget his current. Okay, cool.
54:12He's a great former podcast guest.
54:14I don't know exactly where this question is coming from, but I'm so curious. Uh his question is in five years, do you think Google is going to have 10,000 products or five?
54:23Oh yes. Okay. This is a longunning debate Logan and I have on the team. Um, but it's funny, at least to me, I keep switching my answer. So maybe I'm a bad right now.
54:34I'm more in the camp of like I don't know if we're even going to think of products the same way. So I think one framing of it is 10,000 products from Google. That's like 10,000 surfaces that have their own brands and it's all complex and everything. Um, I'm not sure that'll be possible to your earlier point. what's possible or what should we do? Um because you can have a product factory that's just going to turn out these products. So that's like one one thing you could think about. Um I'm more and more thinking about like are there
55:03almost like experiences or things that are going to be more bespoke that the models might make and that might mean there's labs teams behind it making the agent that does this thing that you experience maybe in a common surface.
55:17I'm not sure. Um, but I also am not we we have a couple of experiments in labs going on this right now of like can we prove both sides of this debate and maybe that's why he threw it in like we and sometimes that's what we'll do is we'll kind of take both sides of it and say like okay if this thing really consolidates down and there's a super app or a set of super apps what's that world going to look like and maybe if this thing super fragments what's that world going to look like and so right
55:46now I'm probably more on the camp of Like I think super apps have worked in some use cases in some parts of the world obviously extremely well but I think for a lot of people using them they can be very complex and it's very hard to actually drive kind of the behavior that adds value because there's so much complexity but this is also assuming humans are going to be the ones tapping most of these experiences as well. And so anyway, this is a fun one to debate and uh yeah, one of Logan and
56:14I's favorite kind of we'll we'll chat on this one a lot.
56:17I love that it's just unclear where we're going. Like it's just it just shows where we're just we're all just trying to figure this out.
56:24That's such a good uh example of that.
56:26Okay. Well, before we get to our very exciting lightning round, Josh, is there anything else you wanted to share?
56:32Anything else you want to leave listeners with? Anything you want to double down on? Yeah. I mean, I guess one thing I'd think about is like um and I I'm always trying to think of this too. If people have ideas, please just like let me know on X or whatever is like I still think there's a lot of space right now on how to get feedback about the products and experiences you're building whether it's in Google Labs or as a startup founder or whatever. And so that feels like another area of like how do you listen and sort
57:01of aggregate collect get insight inspiration from feedback loops. Um that I feel like there's a lot of interesting stuff happening with AI applied to that right now. Um and I'm sure all of you probably do too Lenny on your stuff and my stuff of you know agents running overnight summarizing everything that's happening and but I feel like there's an interesting like what makes a PM great.
57:23a great PM has insight about a certain type of people and the types of things that are going to delight them or solve their problem. And I feel like that's an interesting like how do you crack that feedback loop with AI and these new types of products we're building. So anyway, that's something also in the back of my mind right now.
57:40Yeah. Like so idea the question there is just how do you get AI to be as good as an amazing top percentile PM at identifying opportunities and insights?
57:47Yeah, I think that's one branch of it.
57:49And I think the other one is like is there a world where I don't know there's probably some people in your life just like they're in my life when you're around them insights seem to flow pretty naturally and you kind of get to a lot of interesting perspectives and like is there a collaboration model with people and AI that enables more of that? I think it's kind of an interesting prompt maybe.
58:09Sounds like we're getting into B2B SAS software over here at Google Labs. I love it. [laughter] I'd buy that.
58:15Okay. Uh, I know you have to run soon, so I'm going to skip to just one lightning round question. I heard you give these hilarious awards to teammates. Uh, my favorite is the TPU harvester. Uh, but there are others. Uh, share share these awards you give and what they mean, what they're Oh, yeah. Yeah. Um, so the TPU harvester, um, we just need more and more TPUs as our products are growing.
58:39And I a few of us wanted to figure out a way to reward people who do the grungy work of efficiency and reclaiming TPUs, harvesting TPUs so we can build the next features and fuel our growth. So we give out a rake to these people uh and a cash award like an actual rake like a little miniature rake we made on Etsy and uh that one is really fun and is we kind of turned into this big celebration. So this is people that save TPUs that optimize make them optimize not use the most tokens.
59:09That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.
59:10That we talked to them separately. But uh you I think that's one's like uh like a rake. Another one people that go in fix paper cuts these little things that add up in a product that annoy people.
59:22We made like a golden band-aid and we give people to that. It's like they put it on their desk as a golden band-aid for fixing paper cuts. Um we have a thing in labs. were really interested of like people who can push the model to these like frontier ways that like in surprising kind of ways. Um we have this thing called the LLM whisperer like they're able to kind of whisper to the model. Uh they get a giant set of ears um like because they can hear things from the model that others can't and
59:50like a really nice mechanical keyboard.
59:52Um, and there's more of these things, too. But we're we're trying to find like ways to kind of like I don't know encode the value in these like dorky symbols, but that that mean something like becoming more efficient with our TPUs enables us to grow and reach more people. Paper cuts, these are the what make the product delightful and like excellent. Uh, and then obviously like the whisper with the ears is like these lead to kind of breakthroughs and new products. So yeah, we're always coming up with weird stuff like this. I love
1:00:21this. This kind of traditions are the best. I heard there's also like a big thank you one where you get like talk to leadership or something like that.
1:00:28Yeah, this one is a little bit of kind of like a secret society in a way where we'll basically like put a put an invite on someone's calendar and we'll just, you know, it looks kind of scary because there's like four or five leaders on the team. There's no agenda. Uh and then they show up and we take turns. We go around the circle and we just tell them why we appreciate them so much for being on the team.
1:00:52Um, and it's pretty fun and it totally surprises people and I always start the meeting with like this is not a bad meeting, this is a good meeting. [laughter] You know, you usually, you know, your mind may assume the worst, but we're actually doing the opposite. These are some of the most most valuable people.
1:01:08Wow, that is awesome. I love all of these. Uh, Josh, how can listeners be useful to you? Oh, Miss Cinda's feedback. So many of you do already. I would [laughter] say u we get a lot of um a lot of joy and we're very grateful for all the people who use the stuff we're trying to build. And um if if we can be helpful on the lab side or the Gemini side, too, please let's make it two-way. Uh and thanks again, Lenny, for having me. It's been great great to spend some time with you.
1:01:36I think we uh think we're going to help a lot of people figure out how to build stay stay at the edge. Uh I I really appreciate you being here, Josh. Thank you so much.
1:01:45Yeah, thank you. Have a great day.
1:01:48Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennispodcast.com. See you in the next episode.
