0:02You're surrounded by journals. Hold your position.
0:46That's misinformation.
0:53Clearing order inbound.
1:02We are surrounded by journalists. Hold your position.
1:35I see multiple journalists on the horizon. Stand by.
2:59Hi. Clearing order inbound.
3:14We are surrounded by journalists. Hold your position.
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4:28You're watching TBPN. Today is Tuesday, September 29th, 2026. We are live from OpenAI Dev Day 2026.
4:37Um we're very excited. Beautiful day here. Beautiful day in San Francisco. We don't get up here nearly enough, but what a fantastic day to be here. Bunch of interesting launches. Bunch bunch of guests from OpenAI joining us. We have Sam Alman joining us in just about 10 minutes.
4:51Bunch of friends here. Amazing opportunity. If you're here, walk in the background and get a screenshot of it. We'll get a little picture together. I see Jeff from Stripe over here hanging out. We're live, Jeff. We're talking about you.
5:03Great to see you. Come, come, come in the background. This is uh Mr. Agentic Payments over here.
5:10Captain Aentic Payments.
5:12Uh we're live. Jeff, you're live. We're live. We just started. Anyways, we'll get back to the show. There we go.
5:19Anyways, having a lot of fun here. Yeah, great group. Uh before we get into a bunch of great guests, we should talk about the news. Anything going on?
5:26Well, there's RAMP. Time is money. You say both. He's used corporate cards, bill pay, accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place. Always a good chance to tell people about ramp. Uh the headline on dev day just to kind of set the table. Uh 200 attendees. It's been four years in a row now. Uh 20 launches today. I think the number might be higher depending on how you slice them up. Uh and the big numbers that they put on stage. Catch is now used by more than 1.2 billion people every week. Uh over 35 million people build with chatbt
5:55working codecs every week. And the big launch was uh personal AI agents dots but also chatbt spaces GPT 6.1 soul and a bunch of other stuff around sites codecs and work that we will get into but uh let's take people through some of the other stories that we should cover.
6:12I'm sure we'll be covering this more tomorrow as well. Uh start with aura loss. John, you want to get straight there?
6:19Let's get straight into it.
6:20There's some unfortunate news. the the the Aura IPO seems to be uh taking a pause or or a a bit of a slowdown.
6:30Yeah. The headline is smart ring maker Ora delays IPO due to market uncertainty. Joe Eisenthal isn't really buying it. He says the S&P 500 is up 12% this year and companies are delaying their IPOs due to market conditions. I saw some commentary on this saying that uh their IPO is overs subscribed by 4.4x.
6:50That sounds great. The historical average is I think like 2.5x something like that. So why' they pull it? That's confusing. Uh I talked to some other folks who said no more in more recent eras uh you've seen IPOs go out at 10x overs subscribed 15x over subscribed.
7:07I think Figma is something like 30 or 40.
7:09It was a crazy crazy multiple. Yeah. And also I believe this IPO was going to be pure secondary and so yeah it's not like they need the cash in Yeah. And so it was more of like a marketing and excitement, a key moment for the company. It wasn't a necessary financing round right now. And so they can pull back and keep building.
7:28So on on on one hand, amazing product.
7:32Uh have have managed to have relatively little competition in the ring category despite much broader competition in wearables.
7:39Um it seems like it's a great business. I think investors generally are going to be a little apprehensive to own a name that is in in any other decade was at scale but now feels like subscale relative to some of the other action yeah in the market. Um and so I'm sure they'll be back but uh yeah unfortunate news.
8:02Are there any rumors of of direct competition from the bigger companies like Apple or I don't know this always felt like something that Apple should have bought totally or or competed with. I mean, a lot of they didn't buy Pebble, they just launched the Apple Watch, but they did very well in that category. But maybe it's just No, but in many ways, like it feels like it would be so much make a lot more sense than let's say like a Beats by Dre to just like fit in to the whole Apple system.
8:27Right away. They could, you know, it it almost doesn't need to be even reskinned, right? It it it feels like it fits into the ecosystem already. So also they are facing a bunch of competition from uh ring makers and device makers that are more AI forward like they have a microphone on them but that feels like an easy very unclear if people actually really need or want that yet.
8:46Oh true true. You think that's why they're moving slower on it is that they I don't think I think a lot of people I think if they came out and said we're adding a microphone to your ring. A lot of people would be like you're getting you're collecting enough of my data. Don't need a microphone.
8:58Yeah my heart rate and blood.
9:00Yeah. other commentary. Hero over on X says the NASDAQ hit an all-time high 7 days ago. So basically saying like look um it's it's probably less market uncertainty and more of a disconnect between what investors would pay and where they want to price.
9:14They were looking to raise as much as 2.2 billion in the IPO which had drawn about four times as many orders as there were shares available or is the highest profile firm to date to delay its offering. Uh and they list out a couple others. The stock market, meanwhile, has broadly held up over the past few weeks despite the 10-year Treasury yields reaching their highest levels to since 2007. Now, it's up more today. Uh there's a quote here from Joe Saluzi. I wouldn't say we're in a market that's scary. So, this is a bit surprising.
9:42This isn't a market I would be scared of if I was IPOing.
9:47I can I can handle the I can handle the market uncertainty.
9:50This guy's just like I don't know what they got what they're fearing. No, but but but again like there there's always there's always a price that this clear and clearly they'd rather you know the bankers and the team would rather sit it out and just get it done at their price when they're ready.
10:07So 4Erunner and Lifeline were going to offer 36.5 million shares. Uh Oro is planning to sell 13.5 million shares and so uh those venture funds will have to wait to recycle the capital I suppose. Uh, in other news, Long Lake completed their acquisition of AMX Global Business Travel.
10:25How much do they pay?
10:28And they have like thousands of employees now or something.
10:30Up to 30,000 employees across the company. Never never have have done a like a riff at any of the companies. They're actually growing headcount.
10:39Um, so again, more data that shows if you're actually applying AI well, you can actually grow uh grow your payroll.
10:46Sure. Yeah. The other the other big story uh at least in the AI world is that AMD sets $8 billion deal for AI research company. Of course AMD bought world labs the uh the uh the neol lab I suppose is the term from uh FE Lee. Uh AMD uh agreed to acquire artificial intelligence research firm world labs an all stock deal valued at about 8.2 two billion. An acquisition that reflects chipmakers ambitions to control more of
11:15the a AI stack. AMD, a semiconductor company that recently touched a trillion dollar valuation, said the deal would bring leading AI research and development talent and help the company develop better AI hardware, software, and systems, especially for the growing field of physical AI and robotics. So, I think big moment.
11:33Yeah, big moment for FE and the whole team. Like I think uh I think it's very I'm super excited to see what they do at at AMD. I wonder how much they'll continue to focus on exactly what they've been doing to date. Massive moment massive moment for Andre Horowitz. Another another uh you know multi-billion dollar acquisition fil apology.
11:55Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He filled out he filled out the apology form.
11:59Uh but yeah, big big moment. Um and yeah, it was always uh Fhe and the team are incredibly impressive. It always felt um it was still no matter how much I got explained the sort of like near-term strategy, I never understood exactly how it would translate into billions of dollars of revenue today. Um, I I mean, yeah, people would say robotic training data. You simulate a world and then the robot can interact with it and that's synthetic data for training
12:29humanoids or or any robotic system. Uh, the more near-term one was you could sort of see the progression of world models to a point where you could create a video game on the fly and have all of the generation, all of the world creation happen on the fly with just a new technology. you would see, you know, companies potentially license that technology like people pay Unreal Engine to, you know, host or develop their games on top of. There was something that was happening there with
12:58consistency. Google has a product as well. Um but yeah, they were there still hasn't been that like chatbt moment for adoption of world models really. But yeah, and you can imagine this is like a like a future facing bet as in hey let's make it a a much bigger play into into robotics forward. Yeah. I mean uh Jensen Yeah. Yeah. Uh I mean Jensen's been doing some more stuff with world models and open source. We have Sam Alman joining for the third time. Welcome to
13:26the show of the hour. Good to see you.
13:28Congratulations. We're going to have you throw that headset on. Welcome to the show. How is How is Dev Day 2026 going?
13:35People seem very happy.
13:36I think they are. Um, what were you doing 20 years ago?
13:41Uh, John knows if you No, I was like working on a little startup.
13:45Didn't Loop launch 20 years ago basically today.
13:49That's incredible if that's accurate.
13:51Yeah, I think September of 2006 was the launch. And I was thinking about it because uh I you know as we enter the moment of personal agents like a lot there there's obviously work applications but a lot of the demos that I've seen people talk about are things that feel aligned to the original looped vision. It's like if my friends are in town let's plan a barbecue. Let's order the food. Let's go to the restaurant.
14:14Let's get the reservation. And I'm wondering is this a full circle moment for you?
14:18It's interesting. It didn't feel like that until right when you said it. Now I guess it sort of is.
14:21Yeah. Uh, and I'm wondering how you have been using dots, how you think this will actually instantiate itself into people's lives. Uh, it's so easy to lean into the work side, but this feels like a reinvigorating moment for OpenAI as a consumer company.
14:37Look, sadly, all I do these days is work. So, I've mostly been using it for and I hang out with my family. That's really the only two, but I I I have mostly been using it for work and it is amazing for that. And I feel like it has me back and ability to like explore and do things and I love it for that.
14:54I have not yet figured out how to like go use this to have more fun in my personal life. I'm inspired to go do that.
15:00But you're Yeah. you're optimistic that people will ultimately do that. I feel like uh you know open a has been called like the accidental consumer company and and at the same time the vision seems to be like actually get AI in the hands of people and maybe let's not end up in a future where that means everyone working 24/7. Right.
15:19100%. I I you know I think the world's always confused when we talk about AI about whether we want we're worried people are going to have to work too much or too little. Yeah. But I think it's great to give people like more time to hang out with their kids, do their hobbies, work on creative new projects. I think most people actually want that and I really feel it with dots. Yeah.
15:38So I Yeah, I think people are going to get that.
15:40Yeah. What has the last I mean we the last time we talked was a couple months ago or maybe more than six months ago on the show. Uh it's been a wild time like a lot of things have gone right it seems right. the uh there's some numbers that leaked today, but it seems like some things changed. How do you tell the story of the last six months or so?
16:03Um I mean, I think the answer is it's all just one jagged exponential that keeps going and probably the next six months will be even crazier.
16:12Um the the technology has been capable for a while. It's clearly gotten much more capable, but it takes a while for technology like this to diffuse through society. And I think in the last 6 months, people are using it in much more. And now with these sort of always on agents, I think people will again go through a period where they're like, "Wow, I can really use this in all kinds of ways." And this is like a significant new thing in my life that's helping me.
16:38Yeah. So, is this a moment to sort of like pay down the capability overhang right now?
16:44Um, you know, when you were talking about how uh, you know, you can use this to like do the stuff that we were talking thinking about 20 years ago and like book a restaurant and, you know, coordinate with my friends, I was kind of like laughing in my head cuz I was like, yes, you can do that, but it can also like solve the greatest unsolved problems.
17:02And so the delta in capability between, you know, some of the stuff we're talking about now and what these models are so smart Yeah.
17:08can do is just going to take us a while to figure all that out.
17:11Yeah. What have you learned this year about the sequence of events? I was shocked by if you had told me that there was going to be hugging face and then uh Navier Stokes and then after that I saw the first person said I use Chachi to book me a haircut. I would have not predicted that those things happen in that order. Like I maybe would have predicted that they all happen in the future. Yeah. But I would have predicted we get the haircut first. And and I'm wondering if you've learned anything about not just predicting the future,
17:38but the sequence of events. Um, I mean, one of the obvious things is just people want their lives to be a little easier.
17:45And actually, I think more people are interested in just their lives being a little bit less hectic, a little easier than they are in whatever Navier Stokes can do for them or at least their direct experience.
17:57Totally. So um but I think the cool thing about this is that models that are this capable uh can are going to be applied to make people's lives better in big and small ways in ways that we can't even really imagine today. And you know I think when the fact that we all talk about haircuts and booking haircuts is like a it's a failure of imagination but the way it gets corrected is all these people here.
18:19Sure. Like as I've had a little bit of time today to talk to what people are building here, like I am amazed at the creative spirit of what people are building for each other with this technology. And I think it's been I think it's been one of the greatest surprises of the last 6 months is seeing like just how far people are pushing the developer tools to build this amazing new stuff.
18:39Yeah. talk about uh some of the new functionality being able to log in with chat GBT and basically bring compute with you anywhere across the internet because to me that was that was there was a bunch of great moments um uh uh earlier but to me the moment that stood out is imagining as an independent developer that has been sort of held back by their ability to scale cool products because hey I can't just start losing $20,000 a day serving free users. I think it's so important to build an open ecosystem
19:08here. Uh, and we want people to take well to bring whatever they want into Chacht, run other apps there, but also to take their subscription and go use it elsewhere.
19:16And any harness you want, any service you want. Like this is I have been disappointed to see other companies with AI subscriptions go in the other direction. Like this is a thing you buy and you should be able to take it with you anywhere and you should be able to go use all of the wonderful things these people are building. And uh, I think we're going to push that much further.
19:33How do you think about uh the potential transition from OpenAI's products being very polloced as as I mean like the app is there unless I come to it with a question with a prompt it doesn't do anything to a world where my dot might message me and then you get into how much is it messaging me how much is it pulling me in what are the retention there's there's a lot of potential risks with that right
20:01it it yeah I mean there's clearly ways that people could misuse or growth hack the fact that AIs can, you know, ping you a lot. Yeah, I'm sure we'll see some companies get that wrong. We're going to try very hard to not do that. Um, but I my own experience over the last few weeks is I actually want more.
20:20Like I think we've tuned the dial a little too conservatively for now. And the fact that everything my dot sends me is something I want means I think there's something still left on the table. But I can easily see how this goes wrong on the other direction and we'll have to figure out how we're going to navigate that.
20:34Yeah, I'll often uh open chatbt and and realize there's like a very important email that I need to respond to and like I didn't it somehow like got mixed up in uh and then you're like you kind of wish it pinged you, right? Um what can you say uh any any advice for let's say public company CEOs that uh want to maintain a startup's culture at scale because that's something like you know opening eye is still a private company but the impression of seeing how this
21:03company works is that it's not just like yeah we act like a startup at scale like it's actually like that it's like incredibly scrappy it's very small groups of people trying to do the impossible on impossible timelines And uh something that something that you're doing is is working because it allows this like incredible velocity. It's not just the models.
21:23Someone said to me a few days ago that joined Open Eyes somewhat recently and had been at a big kind of slowish public company before was that the key is to have the work and expectations per person go up over time. And the way that big companies go wrong is there's too many people with not enough to do and they kind of like fight each other over like these fake levels of work. And if everybody is really busy with real impact and there's the the amount of work per person and stuff to do per person keeps increasing, then you can
21:51fight the like slow drag and politics of the big company.
21:56On the flip side of that, I feel like there's a lot of companies that are going through sort of a sloppation and they're fighting slop grenades. I've I've wondered if the like the correct KPI is maybe we should all be producing the same amount of words in our emails and it's okay if if AI is involved but you don't just want to take every text message and turn it into a 20page document right um we fight super hard against the slop grenade
22:24and uh the many slop grenades and I think just like very strong cultural norms that if you are writing something and then you are having chhattyt expand it and then somebody else is going to have it chat GBT summarize it back to your bullet points. The right answer is to just send the send the bullet points. Yeah, I've told some people just send me the prompt and I can I can expand it myself in my mind.
22:45Sometimes um how are you thinking about compute these days? There's so many different uh you know battles and and different markets across consumer and enterprise. What is the plan for the next couple of years to build a lot more compute? Um, one one thing that OpenAI has that doesn't get as much attention is our chip program.
23:03Yeah. Which will start to come online in the first half of next of 2027 and will scale a lot in future years. Yeah.
23:09I think gives us a huge inference advantage per whatever for whatever like watts we can find in the world and given the growth and demand we are seeing across consumer developer enterprise really everywhere. Um, and to say nothing of like people are going to love dots and then they're gonna say, "Well, can I have 10 dots or 20 dots or 100 dots or whatever." Um, we will have to make more efficient models, more efficient chips and figure out how to build a lot more infrastructure.
23:33How do you see the user experience across the different models, the different cost and speed uh uh parameters uh being vended to the actual end user? Is that something you want to maintain forever? because developers love hearing about 6.1 soul and ultra fast mode or are there consumers you know I noticed dots doesn't have a model picker I think people are really tired of the model picker and the like model you know what like this model that model like like we want to find a way to really
24:01simplify that um like the dream is that there is a single model and it kind of makes great decisions for you uh and you can maybe turn a speed dial when you really need it and a cost dial when you don't. Um, but you know, we were talking about like models that can book haircuts versus solve Navier Stokes. I think this model should be able to figure out a lot of the trade-offs and we should be able to do a good job with routing. I think we'll always offer choice to developers.
24:28Yeah, sometimes you want to drive a Ferrari to the grocery store.
24:30Sometimes you do. So, I think we'll always offer that choice, but most of the time you don't. You know, most of the time it's the minivan to the grocery store and the Ferrari at the track. And the model should like be able to make that smoother.
24:41Yeah. Do you feel like you have more or less clarity around the future than you did a decade ago? Because when again I always I always encourage people to look back at at your blog in the sort of 2015 2016 era because there was a bunch of things that you and and other people that were writing at the time just like pretty much nailed entirely. And I go through life now knowing that there's people out there that have like very accurate predictions around the future. And sometimes there's
25:09an incentive to share, sometimes there isn't. But but how do you think about your own forecasting ability?
25:14It's nice of you to say that. There's like plenty of things I was wrong about, too. Uh like, you know, I try to leave the wrong predictions up obviously.
25:22Um but I think the important point is like you get some things right, some things wrong. I think we'll be very right about some things. I think we'll be very right that intelligence continues. I think we'll be very right about the rate of scientific discovery.
25:33I think we'll be very right about how people kind of are going to have the same things that they care about and drives in their lives 10 years from now they have from today and even with this like amazing intelligence a lot of parts of life are going to stay the same but then a lot of the details and kind of what order science goes in or whether it's you know haircuts or hugging face or Navia Stokes first I'm I'm sure we'll be wrong about it feels like that the leadership skill or or basically having
26:01the mentality of a of a venture investor and somebody that's made a bunch of very long-term bets makes people very well suited for today in the sense that having that openness to if I get three things out of 10 right and I get them really right then then that's great like it it sort of pays for all the other bets. One of the things that I think is coolest about this new generation of people building with AI is you can try something so quickly and so cheaply that if you have if you are a developer and
26:30you have 30 ideas, the canonical advice that was correct two years ago is pick one and put all of your effort into it because you can't build 30 things. You can now build all 30 things and you can get people to use them all and then you can work more on the ones that work. So, I think this mindset of um lots of ideas, quick feedback, and be open to a lot of things not working is great for this new era of how how people build.
26:53I have one more question, then we want to get you to hit the gong. Uh on alignment, you've been deep in the weeds. I'm sure there was a debate I saw. Is it an engineering problem? Is it a science problem? Is there a different frame of mind that we should be approaching alignment with?
27:08I I think it's like all of those things, but it's certainly incorrect to talk about this only as an engineering problem. Anyone who says we have solved the science of alignment I believe is wrong in a very dangerous way. Like we need to make more research progress I assume we will. We have been great at making this research progress. Um and of course there's a lot of engineering work to do too. You know we need to continue to figure out how to build better sandboxes and better monitoring tools.
27:33But eventually as we if we are going to create models that are like much much smarter than all of us we have to actually solve the science of alignment. Have we considered moving away from the term sandbox? Because I have a 5-year-old. If I put him in a sandbox, he's not going to stay there. I think we might need a new term.
27:48My kid, unfortunately, will just stay in.
27:49Oh, okay. Okay. So, maybe. Yeah. But, but you know, different alignment. Uh, but yes. No, I think I think this draw.
27:58Just however you want. Just with like bang.
28:02There you go. With authority.
28:04Love for you to sign this as big as possible.
28:08Big signature right there on the gong.
28:10Thank you. This is going in the Museum of Business at the TBPN Ultradome.
28:14Thank you so much for coming on the show.
28:16Great to see you. Thank you.
28:16Congratulations on a great dev day.
28:19Uh we will move on to our next guests. We have a few more hopping on the show. We have Alexander Mericost jumping on in just a minute. Uh we will see with him on all things Codeex. We need a slop grenade button.
28:35Being able to That's bad in the chat. That's great. We could sort of simulate that if we have a remote, you know, remote guest on, we could say, "Hey, check check out I have an idea. I have an idea. I have an idea for you. What do you think of this?" And then you throw like a a six page.
28:51Okay. I was thinking a slop grenade would be like you go full back to Nickelodeon slime and when you push the button, it just slams Tyler with it and he just he's covered in slop. I think that's the one we got to go. I don't know if you Oh, wow. Look at uh look over here. You got a crowd crowd chasing chasing Sam around.
29:09They want more tokens. Give us Got to be careful with this signed gong.
29:13Yes. Oh, yeah. That's a hot commodity.
29:16Uh over in Washington, CNBC reporter was trying and failing to interview tech CEOs at the White House. Uh Alex Karp just took the microphone out of his hand and started asking them his own questions.
29:27Interesting. Uh he's No, he's literally they're they're doing like a man on the street interview and uh just just uh carp took the wheel.
29:38That's Yeah, that's great. Uh well, there's more stories. We'll get to those in just a few minutes, but let's bring on Alexander.
29:44Uh welcome to the show. We're going to have you throw that uh headset on. Do you need anything to drink? This is uh warmer water. Okay. Well, welcome welcome back to the show. Always great to see you. Uh how is this dev day for you? Uh I mean apart from the outage. Excellent.
30:01Wait. Outage a global outage going on or or Yeah. Yeah. We had a bit of an outage uh during the demos like you know I haven't like deeply read up on what exactly happened but like because we launched 6.1 stall and just immediately got hammered. We did that.
30:16Oh yeah that's a that's a lesson. That's like the meta meta connect last year.
30:20Bos accidentally set off like the the the key word said like the wake word the wake word but every device in the whole space started going off and then crashed everything. So positive framing is a champagne problem but broadly this dev day I'm so excited like when I joined the company like a little over two years ago like this moment is the moment I've been looking forward to the entire time. Okay, you know like we had this chat uh we invented that that paradigm it it was awesome informational couldn't do things for you. Okay, then we had coding
30:49agents, agents that could do things.
30:50Awesome. That's the next level. But you still have to like really babysit it and figure out like what am I going to ask this agent to do?
30:56Yeah. Yeah. And so we're finally at the stage where I can go to someone and say, "Hey, if you want to do something manually, do it with codeex."
31:02If you want to delegate it, sure.
31:04Right. And this dot, it has your back. It figures out how to help you. It just helps you get so much more value out of this. So for me, like I've been I've been looking forward to this for years.
31:10Yeah. Does it feel like uh Yeah. It's the same it's the same the sorry to jump in but it's the same dynamic of like if you had a bunch of if you basically had a bunch of people on your team that would just sort of flag information but then not take any action. They're like hey this thing it's happening like okay like why don't you do something about it? Listen, I I I like that. But I would actually say like Codeex is actually more like a principal engineer, but who doesn't like initially unless you tell them exactly to do it doesn't read like linear or like doesn't check slack. And so the super smart
31:40principal engineer, but you know, you have to make sure you sort of give it the right instructions.
31:44Whereas dot it's like you have that principal engineer because uh your dot has its own computer. It can do anything that you can do on a computer in the cloud. It can also connect to your computer. So, if you have a really awesome local codec setup, it can actually go use that except that it has its own identity in Slack. And so, it's available wherever you talk. And uh you know, I don't know if you guys have seen this, but it's uh or for anyone listening, the way that dots show up in Slack isn't just like a random name like Wisp.
32:08Uh we we tried that. We had we had agents with random names and no one knew what was going on. It was a bit confusing. But they show up with like your username. So, like I'm AE. It's like AE- dot. Yep.
32:16In Slack. And so, you have all these these people and their delegates just doing stuff together. Yeah. uh you know, principal engineer level capability. Yeah. Or or if you're not an engineer, just like you know, maximum capability.
32:26Yeah. I mean, the the demo that I saw uh just randomly through a friend was like we were looking for Sam Alman's headsh shot and we were able to delegate that to a dot that was able to go find like a file in a file system that's easy, but just that little retrieval would be a couple clicks on a web browser. And now it's just not even a couple clicks. It's like searching around folders.
32:46Sometimes it's like uh yeah, digging through stuff. And so yeah, it feels like we're we're hitting this inflection point of like leaving just the developer workflows and getting into like everyone's workflows and you always had the pro like the proumer of the enterprise who was like oh yeah they're a sales rep but they also use codeex and now it's like there is a product that's approachable for everyone. Are you it feels like there's the expansion of territory that's happening within businesses and then there's also like different types of businesses that are
33:14able to actually get a great value started with software development firms and and software companies. Are video game developers the next leg up? Like who are you seeing here at DevDay that you're like, "Oh, I I I I haven't actually talked to that many of your that many folks in your industry." Um and and and maybe the progress in Astra is flowing through. I mean that's what my experience was. I was modeling stuff in Blender. I haven't touched uh 3D
33:43rendering for a long time. And I can I'm building video games and stuff and um and I saw that okay this is we've crossed this the spike of intelligence has spiked beyond what's relevant in this particular category. And I'm wondering where else you're seeing it or what what what's been the most visceral to you. So, so I agree that like I think for video games like with the stuff we've been seeing people make with Astra. Yeah.
34:04Absolutely awesome. And so therefore because Dots run on Astra, we've just seen people having Dots just like autonomously building like really fun games and stuff. So that's that's awesome and I agree with that. But actually I think the the audience that I'm the most excited for to like get even more capability is maybe like solopreneurs or like small business owners actually because you know that's where you're you're doing absolutely everything that your business needs and you're just like swamped with all the stuff incoming. Um, and that's where having a dot that just like has your back and is like managing all this stuff
34:32for you. Yeah. Doing the work that maybe you could have done before with Astro, but it was just like a lot of work to figure out that that work even needed doing is helpful. So, I've heard, you know, obviously a lot of great anecdotes from from engineers like people waking up in the morning to kudos from their team because their team was collaborating with a dot and it helped them out. It's like good job for having a dot that did this.
34:50Which is so fun. But, um, you know, we also have a lot of great anecdotes from from like people in completely other areas. like you know running the launch like dots going around realizing that oh this thing about the product changed so we need to go update the blog or like you know your travel plans for this conference have changed so let me just like organize things for you so yeah uh walk me through the specialist dots like is that a more of like a mental framing for the user to let them know
35:18that this capability is there is there actual like the harness matters narrative where you do want to go to that particular dot or Is it because I can imagine as a solo entrepreneur uh it's just valuable to say okay I at least have like one arrow in the quiver for legal one arrow in the quiver for finance etc. Um but also these models are pretty general and the the the G and AGI sort of leads you to throw you know
35:45codeex Astra ultra at every problem. So how do you think about coaching people through that dynamic?
35:53Yeah I mean so there's two things going on here. So we've got dots and we've got specialist dots. And the reason we're leading with dots first is like just very related to our mission, right? Deliver the benefits of AGI to all humanity. And you know, when I think about product, I want that to be palpable. Like I want every person to have direct access to something that is empowering them, extending them, helping them move faster. And so those are dots and those dots, you know, each person has one, you'll have more in the future.
36:15And it works, you know, extending you.
36:17So using your connectors for instance, right?
36:19Um so that's great. But when you think about how you how you like scale the the amount to which this capability is deployed within enterprise there's actually a shift that we're starting to see happening that these are a part of right one of those shifts is like moving from local work on someone's computer to moving it work in the cloud right and so specialist dots have their own computer just like dots um the other shift is actually moving away from working with like an individual's identity to moving with an IT managed centrally governed well-controlled identity and we actually had an announcement going out today about how we're working with Microsoft
36:47on that as well. Um and so if you are a team or an organization and you have a specific type of like functional work that you would like to like accelerate the whole team with that's where you deploy a specialist dot. So it could be something like procurement or accounting. Those are some of the early places we've seen a lot of success but ultimately broadly we see that it'll be useful in many more functions and departments.
37:08Personally I feel like I don't know maybe I'm just like too much of a normie but uh I feel like this is the frame of mind that I want to be in. Obviously, there's like the merge where you the AI becomes you and if I want to send you a message, it comes from me, but the AI is like puppeteering me. And I actually prefer the idea of like I have an assistant and they are their own entity and they have their own phone number and email eventually and I can share information with them and they are on my team but I am still me and and I think
37:37that that is something that I I would bet on that being relatable to a lot of we'll see. I don't know how. Yeah, I actually made some like pretty funny mistakes as we were building this product that we had to like pull back.
37:47Yeah. Yeah. And so like Okay, I totally agree with what you said and then I'll tell you about the ask your what is uh what's he writing about me from a performance reporter?
37:56Well, no, that actually there's a lot of layers of defense that that's not going to make that information. But no, it's more like what we realized is that again there's this kind of like this this bifurcation, right? Like I want my dots to augment me and so maybe I want to collaborate on an email and then I'm good. I just did that from within the the chatp app and I hit send right and that should just look like me but you know I I approved that email to be sent um and I made a mistake about that what I'll tell you about and then on the other hand uh you know we had we had for a while all these agents just sort of acting sort of as us sending messages as us with this like sent by chatbt thing
38:25internally and it was like fine but it kind of like started to get noisy and so that's when we kind of iterated our way towards no we're going to have like a strongly separate identity they're going to look different and we've got these characters we're going to have like a name that like clearly is like owner-bot Right. Um, and that just like clarified everything that was going on in communication. Totally. So, it's awesome.
38:44And, and I love I love the idea of like look, sometimes the amount of back and forth and compute that's going to be dedicated to some negotiation. If we're trying to find even just a time to get lunch, they might be our dots might be going back for a long time, but it's not going to ever be like you opened your messages to me and it's a flood of messages because they were going back and forth. It it happened below the fold. And then you you can, you know, you can abstract that away as much as you need to. Agree. Um, very cool.
39:12I'm going to set up a dot where every time I get a like a startup pitch deck that's just clearly AI generated, it'll generate a playable video game that I can just go through go through the deck in the form of like, you know, possible.
39:26Yeah, but that's totally a thing you could do. Oh, I know I'm joking, but it's it's it's actually so here here's an interesting thing about uh about space, right, and sites, which is like a lot of the tools that we use to do work today are optimized for human authoring. Okay, so what I mean by that is like, you know, like think documents, right? Like you go into a document and like you can type into it, right? And the way that your document can look is like pretty simple. It's like text, right? And like yeah, various document editors have like fancy ways for you to go in and like move the images around and stuff, but it all generally kind of sucks because the tool
39:55is well designed for humans. Like it I think those tools are good.
39:59Even though they're a little inflexible, but now that we have Dots and we're collaborating with them, we have AI like HTML authoring is like basically free.
40:06Right. And so like I love how space incorporates like HTML visualization. So you could just be like, "Hey, like build me this artifact that I can click around or like literally put a game in the dock or whatever in the page." Um and it's super interactive and I think this is like sort of the paradigm shift that we're starting to Yeah. How do you think about uh the road to and the benefits of actual direct integrations because at the end of the day like if I have some service that's uh that I want to interact with like there are APIs there's ways there's computer use at this point like
40:35everything is somewhat connected what's the benefit of actually directly engaging with open AI doing a proper connection what are the benefits what are the costs? I mean there's there's a few layers here. Um I think it starts with yeah now that our agents can use the same tools that we use i.e.
40:54computers, then there's kind of this baseline, right? Like your agent if you want it to and allow it to um it can go to anything. And I do want to emphasize that like dots have many layers of like safety protections and one of them is custom rules, right? So if you're a company and you want to limit what exactly dots can do with various tools, like there's a very easy affordance for you to go in and do that.
41:11But okay, so that's your baseline, right? The next layer that I think we could talk about is like connectors and mostly it's just like it makes things faster. It lets your product be a little bit more opinionated. Yeah.
41:20Uh just improves the experience for everyone.
41:21Yeah. Um the the other sort of form of integration uh that I'm not sure if this is what you're getting at, but that I'm really excited about is plug-in extensions.
41:29So, you know, we've long had this idea that like you or there's actually a fun debate in this industry, right, which is like to what extent should UI be generated just in time for the user and uh we're doing a lot of interesting work here and there's like some some cool stuff coming out soon uh around that. But my opinion is that for UI that I'm going to click around in, I generally want it to be somewhat predictable so I know where the button is. I can achieve mastery over this tool. But we don't want to be the only people deciding that. We want other people to be able to build their own UIs
41:57for our users. And so something super cool is that now if you're a chatbt user, you can install a plugin that has a plug-in extension that actually renders like custom UI, custom pages just in the chatbt app.
42:07So if you're a developer listening to this, you have the ability to go reach your customers directly. And the the meetings plugin that we just launched today is an example of this. It's like a fully arms length plug-in integration.
42:17Yeah. Uh then what I I I so I feel the same way about on the-fly UI generation, custom UI. I am excited about that. At the same time, I can see I can sit here and talk to somebody who's extremely bullish on voice interfaces and they think that like everything should be vended over uh conversational voice interface and I feel like OpenAI has kept enough irons in the fire across all these different paradigms. Is there a tension there? Is that deliberate? Is there an idea that to reach everyone to
42:45hit a 1.2 2 billion MA or WOW like you don't you don't want to actually go all in and and narrow you need to meet people where they are across multiple modalities.
42:56Yeah. I I would say so like this something Tibo said earlier today. It's like at some point it's about the active intelligence and the interface stops mattering. Yeah. And you know my my like slight way of reframing that would be like it's like the interface should just be whatever you want. Yeah.
43:08Right. So like I'm a product manager so I spend a lot of my day in Slack and so I mostly talk to my dot in Slack actually. Right. But then when I'm commuting like I was coming in today I knew I was going to have a bunch of conversations. I was just talking to my dot like about the day and what I need to be prepared for was like grilling me on some hard questions you know. Um Holly earlier at the demo at the keynote today was talking about how like actually the anecdote was kind of me like I saw her in this phone booth all the time and I I was going to give her some feedback. I'm like why are you in so many meetings? Like shouldn't we be like not in meetings? And then she's like no I'm talking to my dot and I realized this and I'm like wow this is crazy. We've like unearthed a completely
43:37new paradigm. So going back to your thing about irons in the fire like I think that some of these things are kind of emergent. Like I I really love talking to my dot over voice. Um, but the way that that happened is, uh, the voice team that was working on DOTS did an amazing job, but it was kind of like we combined these two capabilities and because both irons were very hot, they combined really well, you know, but if you had started from scratch, I don't think we would have gotten to such a great outcome.
44:06What um, I've noticed that I don't think people here have this problem, but uh, as I was thinking about, you remember this viral video that's got Jim from Charleston AI?
44:18She might have to refresh my basically he has a retail store in Charleston that's you can walk in and he'll teach you like how to use codecs and work. Yeah.
44:28And I've just noticed this thing where normal people outside of the tech industry don't just know that you can ask the AI can you do this thing? Yeah. And it's like it feels like as there's 20 new launches today and it feels like the biggest bottleneck is like effective product marketing to the sort of long tale of users on how to use these different tools. Um because when somebody asks me hey can I do this thing with chatbt I say well have you asked chatbt that like it'll sort of explain the general capability
44:58set and then maybe like even prompt you on how to prompt it etc. But it feels like outside of San Francisco that's like the the biggest bottleneck to like adoption and diffusion is just people not realizing that the best teacher for the thing is not even necessarily a YouTube video about it. It's like being able to go back and forth.
45:14Well, I mean two things on that. First, thanks for having me on the show. You know, this is the second point though I think is like at least when I hear that, you know, I I think this is actually a product problem as well. Yeah.
45:22Like if the product I mean it's so powerful, right? these open-ended sort of chat interfaces. You can ask whatever you want, but it's it's hard to to realize that you can you can try that. Like I I I find that very understandable.
45:35Uh and so that's part of why I'm so excited about dots in this era of active intelligence is that well maybe I don't have to realize that that I can ask for help for finding the headshot.
45:45You know, it it'll just notice that someone was urgently asking me for the headsh shot and so it might just go ahead and proactively research like where is the headshot? And they come to me like, "Hey, someone asked you for the headsh shot. I happen to know where the headshot is already. Yep.
45:57Do you want me to send it?" Yep.
45:59Right. And so I think we we're about to achieve this like step function change in how much value people are getting from existing models. Right. Like God is built on GPD6 Astra and yet it's going to unlock so much value for people.
46:10Yeah. Yeah. I know it's exciting time.
46:11Thank you so much for coming on the show.
46:13Have a great rest of your dev day and we will move on to our next guest. Andrew Amcino is coming on from OpenAI. We will bring him on. have him throw on this headset and introduce himself cuz I believe this is your first time on the show. Correct.
46:28This is my first time.
46:29Welcome. Good to meet you.
46:31Thank you so much for hopping on. Uh uh give us a little tour of your dayto day, your role, introduce yourself for everyone.
46:38Um so since the original Codex app, I've led that team who runs desktop from the Codex app to now. Um and I've also picked up uh leading the space team.
46:47From the space product.
46:48You needed needed some more on your plate.
46:50Yeah. wasn't enough, man.
46:52Yeah. Uh, that's top was solved.
46:53Give us a uh give us an overview of your experience with like the merge, putting everything together. There's been so many hard decisions, so many band-aids to rip off. I feel like what's it actually been like? What's gone well?
47:04What do you wish you could redo?
47:06This is my merge shirt.
47:07Okay, maybe maybe introduce the idea of the merge because there is that Sam Alman blog post from a decade ago about the merge and that's a different thing.
47:14That's a different thing. Um, well, there's been a series of merges.
47:18Okay. Uh should we merge them all together?
47:21We should merge the merges. We split, we merged eventually.
47:24Um no, I mean we had this great app with Codex and we had chatbt that served a billion users. Y and um we needed to find a way to join these two worlds and bring the agentic side of codeex y in this app into chatbt with chat work.
47:37Of course, when we launched it originally, there were still like a lot of things that didn't match up and so we've been working on merging those. We had two great merges today um that are a little bit under the radar actually.
47:47Okay. Uh, one of them is that we completely re rewrote chatgbt.com in the last five weeks.
47:54Uh, to be the CEO app.
47:56Wait, your pin tweet?
47:58It says I'm I'm going dark for 6 weeks or something like that, right?
48:02That's what this was.
48:03Yeah. Okay, now we know.
48:04So now we've got we've got the same codeex desktop experience you're used to. The chatgpt desktop experience is now chatgbt.com.
48:11Um, and then the second merge that we've done is now by default chatgbt work on the desktop.
48:16Yes. uh works on the cloud. Okay.
48:18Um and still has access to your local machine. So you've got these threads everywhere. Yes. Um Codex cloud we launched today.
48:24But what that means is like by default you will be able to do something that needs a file system that needs some localish compute even though it's in the cloud. You won't have that f you won't have that tension between like am I just in a chat thread that's sort of like short-lived versus I got to go to my computer. Now by default you have more cloud access.
48:44Yes. One of the things that we really like about all of our new products today, whether that's the dots, the Codex cloud, chat work, y all of this stuff is running in the cloud and has access to your local machine if it needed it. So if you've got files on your local machine, if you're logged into all your browsers on your local machine, the whole system, we are we are working on this merge. Yeah.
49:02Uh and we we are next working on the toggle merges this.
49:07Yeah. Are are you So so so question for you. How do you how do you balance trusting your own instinct around product decisions because obviously you would never make a big product decision that you thought was going to lead to a worse experience with like real time user feedback around how things were because people you know we were just talking with Andrew like the the people build up like a habit around different flows and different ways that the product can be oriented and then they sort of get build an attachment to
49:36it and so even if it needs to change it can be it can be jarring But you're you guys are sort of like drinking from the fire hose of user feedback every single day. And whether you're taking like going offline for five or six weeks or whatever you did, I'm sure you're getting like tags and comments and messages constantly being like, "Do this, do that, do this, do that."
49:53Lots of tags. Yeah. Um I think when it comes down to it, we we want to put these capabilities into people's hands. And so it becomes obvious that even even if for whatever reason we can't make it uh you know we can't bring chat and work together quite yet. What we knew was that what we were getting out of codeex had to be brought to everybody. And now um we feel similarly with space with dots all of this stuff. Um we try to put the capabilities into people's hands. We dog food it extensively internally. So we've
50:22got thousands of people who rely on the stuff to do every part of their job. Um so we get good feedback loop there. Um, but it's all a work in progress. The stuff is moving incredibly quickly as you know. Yeah.
50:33Um, lots tags on on X all the time and and we love that.
50:39Uh, can you walk me through how uh there's this culture of like side project? Uh, what was it? Side quest was the buzz word. Sometimes they get killed off.
50:49No more side quest. But sometimes they get brought back like like all the computer use stuff that's going on. Huge like leap forward out of nowhere. But you go back 2 years ago, I remember operator that was like, was it a side quest or was it really important work to do because it set you up for this moment? And I'm wondering if there's prehistory for uh any of the new products today like space or anything else that you've touched on where you've like, oh yeah, like actually we we we revisited some work we did previously in
51:18a product. It wasn't quite there. The model got better. We were ready to launch.
51:21I think most of the stuff that we released today is like a take five.
51:26Yeah. uh even even just of things that we did internally. There were so many variations of of dots that we saw internally played around with. Some were local, some were cloud like there were so many variations of the stuff that we used. Um space has gone through a number of iterations. We had um part of chat called canvas that we had up for a while. We've had a lot of internal knowledge based products. So we we've gone through the revs on on that. Um Codex cloud is obviously a full 2.0.
51:53The original Codex was cloud. Then we got into a local agent era and now we're back putting the you know the full local agent on cloud environments. So I think everything that you see today is one of those operator stories or that you know operator to atlas to to codeex right.
52:07Um sometimes I think that the the models are changing so fast that it's hard to get the product timing on these things exactly right to the model when the model is best at it.
52:16Yeah. So sometimes we're you know slightly too early slightly right and um but I think like the stuff that we have out today feels feels magical.
52:25Yeah. Uh so tell us more about space. What is the vision especially for where that product goes? How it fits into um like a just a typical person's workflow in the modern era.
52:37Yeah. We we find ourselves bouncing around between applications all day, right? We're you know in this in the Codex desktop app, chat desktop app. um all sorts of documents were sharing things across Slack and so we wanted to make something that felt very agent native and felt like a way to collaborate with other teammates um their dots as well right something that you can kind of curate this set of of team work that um you're you're tagging each other in uh you're able to use it
53:06in a way that feels like an extension of chatbt um and so this is really the entry of codeex and chatbt into a multiplayer more collaborative era Yeah.
53:16And we're going to do a lot more here.
53:17How do you think about actually like the balance between uh how heavy your hand is on the instantiation of UI on the fly? Like I I noticed this weird thing just happened randomly and just just I believe default chat GPT. I was asking like is it a particularly hot summer?
53:36and it pulled historical weather data from my local weather station and it created this chart and when I would scroll over it, it had haptic feedback where the phone would vibrate and I was like, is that someone at OpenAI like h being like we should put haptics in this thing or did the model do that and then if I love that am I able to sort of productize that within my organization to be like the way we do uh charts at this company there's haptic feedback like how does this flow from what you
54:05get for versus what you put your finger on the scale with versus what an individual user might want as a pattern. That's kind of what this is what I'm I am very passionate about this subject. And I think, you know, a few months ago with with Codeex, we brought this visualiz.
54:22That kind of makes UI on the fly. It's it can either be a full game, right? Um in space, you can make a chess game and play it with other people if they have access to the page. Sure.
54:31Um that's kind of crazy. That is uh finally uh the people the people are asking for it, right? Uh it's like we're split on this decision. Let's play chess for it.
54:40I think the the one that you were when I when I can one v one someone in Rust MW2 out the box.
54:47Well, and the dot computer actually has a few games preloaded onto it.
54:51Oh, which is kind of fun. The doc can play solitary. You can watch it. Um, if you want to use I just set it off just to play. If I just want it to entertain itself and play background, I can do that, too. Even if I'm not there. Okay.
55:03I've had I've had Codex play slay the spire from start to finish.
55:07I think the the one that you're talking about with the weather, that one is a is an extra challenge because you can't you can't have your instant chat model.
55:14Writing a full web app every time. Sure.
55:17Um, and so this is one that we've worked on a lot and it's it's it's you know the research is is finally kind of there to make it feel excellent.
55:25Yeah. Yeah. But then of course like like eventually that gets flowed back to the models. The models get faster. I mean we saw the the what is it eight eight times faster is ultra fast. Uh how do you think that that will change workflows for enterprises? Like uh I mean I think there's like a little bit of a groan at the pricing but Tyler was just like time is money. I I want to hit this all day long. Um h how do you think people are responding to like the speed trade-offs?
55:50Is that like a new core skill for people in understanding how to size uh how to size workloads and actually get the resources done allocate resources or is this something that uh it should be abstracted? It is quickly being abstracted.
56:07I like to say time is money. Save both.
56:09I would say fantastic off the cuff.
56:11It's a great line. Um, no. I think, you know, ultra fast has been one of those things that for us like you just you can't go back, right? There's it's, you know, it's not exactly the same as intelligence doing something that quickly, but it sure feels like it when you, you know, um, especially when we do these dynamic UI things, right?
56:31You're, you know, you're working in a page with your dot, you tag it in and you say, "Hey, can you drop a interactive chart of our Dow usage or Dow growth over time, right?" And it just, it's there, right? It's like you're doing like a whiteboard session, but you can do it with all the d live data from your business, right? And it goes off and it does the research in your data sources. It writes the little app for you and then you can just say like, "Hey, share this with my team, right?"
56:55Um that feels so good with ultraast.
56:58Yeah. Yeah. Uh yeah, that makes sense.
57:00Um uh what what else is uh what else are you working on specifically uh to onboarding? We were just talking about like the boom of soloreneurs. like who is the uh who is the core demo that you find uh the earliest adopter? What what what industries are are on the cusp of uh getting online? We were just talking about um the like the 3D modeling capabilities feels like what we saw in
57:29uh you know vibecoded SAS products coming to the video game world. But what are you seeing on the horizon in terms of companies and developers here today that might uh stick out to you as somebody who wasn't here a couple years ago but is now?
57:42Oh, it's it's hard to say. I mean, I feel like it's just really taken off. I don't know if you've you've seen the chart from OpenAI internally, too, with which is just basically, you know, engineering was here, research is here, and and every other one is like quickly following in in sync. Yeah, I think there's just some of the the things that you do together like pulling data. Yeah.
58:02Um you know, researching things in Slack, planning events together. I mean, this entire dev day is planned using using coding agents, right? Uh they don't look like coding agents anymore, but under the hood they are. Uh so I think we're seeing really just a lot of everything.
58:17Yeah. Uh how many how many weeks will you be out of a lock in until the next six week lockins?
58:23I think you're going right back in.
58:25That's a great question. just repin the tweet.
58:28I think tomorrow I'm going to do another lock in for 6 weeks and we'll see what's at the end of that.
58:32Well, that's fantastic.
58:34Anything else, Jordy?
58:36Thank you so much for coming out crazy. This is fantastic around right now. It really is.
58:41Good luck out there. All right, thanks guys.
58:42We'll talk to you soon. Thank you so much. Uh up next, we have Peter Steinberger returning to TBPN, founder of OpenClaw. Welcome back to the show. It's been too long. Last time we we talked.
58:57Really much has happened since then either.
59:09Have you ever been on a roller coaster that just doesn't stop?
59:12Like I feel like at some point I see the ups and downs. I'm like, "Yay!" And it's still exciting.
59:17Yeah. Is the roller coaster more wild online with the chattering class or internally with what you're working on?
59:27I think I I built up a little bit of a how do you call it? Uh a shell.
59:36There's always too much online and and some of it is amazing. Some of it is just like, oh, you just you know so little.
59:44Yeah, totally. Totally.
59:46But I cannot stay away from it. It's too addictive.
59:48Yeah. Uh so it's definitely it's definitely a new it's definitely a new skill set like like having having a surviving online. Yeah. I'm sure I'm sure you don't know nothing about that.
1:00:00Yeah, it's the same thing.
1:00:01No, but but but it's actually insane how angry people get and how emotional people get about like software and just various like software products, right?
1:00:13Um, and you've been on you've been on the receiving end of like again that full roller coaster, right? Where um, it's it's pretty surreal. The last time you were on the show was just like you were calling in from I think were you still calling in from Europe maybe, but then I think you almost immediately flew over here and you probably been here ever since.
1:00:31It took a little bit. I had I had some London detours. We have a cool office there from Open EI and now I'm I'm here in this crazy eye town.
1:00:42Um, I'd like to go back because, uh, I think there's so much of your your previous work that leads into the announcements today, the moment in AI broadly, personal agents obviously, but uh, can you just retell us the story of like what where did the idea for Open Claw come from? Like what was the initial spark like what got you started there?
1:01:03My spark is annoyance.
1:01:05Yeah. Like like I do stuff. You talk about emotions. I also have emotions. I do them on my computer. it doesn't work as fast or as well as I would, I get annoyed.
1:01:12But now in this day and age, it's like you don't have you can use that annoyance and just like let's fix it.
1:01:18And then the fact that I couldn't really just talk to my computer.
1:01:25That annoyed me. I like this is so this all feels so crusty. Isn't there a better way? And then I just explored those better ways. And I I keep exploring those those better ways. You know this I talked about it inside like my whole thesis is that whatever workflow we think we have right now it's already outdated we cannot we cannot catch up with the models you just think about like how much new things you can do because now Luna is like too cheap to ma now you have ultra fast it's like wait so I don't have to do 50 terminal
1:01:54windows because I can actually stay in focus oh it completely changes things again you know and it's like we can't keep up building yeah what what do you think As you look back on the the boom of open claw, what do you think the key ingredients were?
1:02:09Was it the connectors? Was it the connections? Was it being able to communicate to your computer from anywhere?
1:02:15I think I just showed people a different way how to use AI and so many were stuck in this world. Oh, it can it can summarize my email. No, can like install stuff on your computer or like buy buy syncs for you or like do whatever you want that you can do in your computer if you just only give it the right tools.
1:02:37And I I packaged it in a way that was weird and interesting and and also felt a little bit different, you know, instead of like giving you a wall of text, it felt a little bit more like lobsterish humanish, but like like like it was interesting. Yeah, it showed people a new way and it had some unique ideas like what about if your could actually just be proactive, you know, and yeah, even though like some of it was like token burning, but some of it was genuinely cool and
1:03:08So, I think this day and age it's it's it's all about ideas and imagination.
1:03:13Yeah. Where where you It was such I mean it was such an amazing moment because it it it felt like the the sort of hacker culture that that that this entire town was built on.
1:03:23Like exploded again in this awesome way.
1:03:26Getting back into the main thing is like you know you you kicked off an entirely new paradigm. You set like the whole industry on fire in many ways. everyone everyone started using it, seeing it, and then immediately thinking, how do we make this like commercially viable to be able to scale from hackers that are that are buying Mac minis into something that everyday people can use? And I feel like um I'm in in some ways it's surprising that it given how good the models are that it
1:03:55took another 6 months to actually get to this moment right now where there's more excitement than ever around personal agents. Like in some ways like you saw this the roller coaster, right? you saw this curve of excitement and then hey this is maybe isn't ready for like a billion people to use and then now we're back to the point of like okay isn't that classical Gartner hype cycle.
1:04:14And I honestly I wish it would have been less hype.
1:04:18It was it was it's kind of like this roller coaster where like yay and then like it gets even closer like holy you know. Uh so so I definitely we had like a massive hype cycle with like inflated things what open club would do for you that like completely beside of what it could actually do.
1:04:40And then you had all these insane stories and then of course people tried it like no it doesn't quite work like this because we we still there's still limitations.
1:04:51Models were not as good. The software was not as good. Of course everything's still hard. Everything is still hard and and people were expecting this perfect magical thing that one guy slopped in the basement.
1:05:07The ultimate slop grenade.
1:05:09No, it was really a slop grenade for you. Threw it over to San Francisco.
1:05:12Well, you were Yeah, you were one of the first people to come out and just be like, "Yeah, it's all it's so vibecoded.
1:05:17You and you were unabashed about it and it's like that comes with a lot of pluses and a lot of minuses, but like here is the thing and you know it's free. like you can go and make you can make your own decisions. You can go rewrite the whole thing yourself one line at a time if you want and people did many many many times.
1:05:31Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Uh how do you think the ev like open AI and chach is in an interesting position because you have uh chatbt threads you have uh chatt work in the cloud codeex cloud codecs on your desktop. There's like a few different ways to interact with this. And I'm wondering if you have a vision for like what the next year looks like with like how much people are getting into devices, their own hardware versus uh versus things like the cloud just eating more and more things. Like we went
1:06:01through the boom of the open web, then everything went to social networks and and Instagram profiles. And I'm wondering if you think there's like a pendulum that's swinging or if you have any sort of mental model for where the early adopter or the early consumer will be in a year. I mean the current situation with like chat and work.
1:06:20Yeah, of course it's a compromise.
1:06:22Yeah, it is. And I learned this the hard way. It is very hard to like take people from where they are and introduce them into something new.
1:06:31It's not annoying these people or like confusing these people. Yeah.
1:06:35So, so sometimes you have to make compromises. Is this going to be the final form? Hell no. Like there's people working on on on something that's way cleaner.
1:06:44Yeah. Um, what I don't fully know yet is if we will be in a future that is mostly your agent or if it's going to be whole army.
1:06:56I see I'm seeing both approaches. I'm more in the in the in the first team, but I can also totally see like the the second team and then how all these are like how your personal and your team agents interact. There's still a lot of questions that I don't think the industry has fully figured out.
1:07:12Yeah. And I yeah I always I always comp it it back to like how how human organizations have worked, right? So like you have a big company with thousands of people. You might task one person, hey we have this like general goal. You figure out how to exactly define it and what it should look like but then hundreds of people might work on it but then you don't have hundreds of people report back all all back kind of replicate those hierarchies and then maybe your agent oh this is something really complicated. Let me spawn an agent that manages this and then it manages this little sub agent.
1:07:41Ah, there's so many ideas and there's like I I am playing with a lot of them.
1:07:46You know what what really excites me these days is how do we build software in the future and how do we work better with agents. So like what I just had so much fun with the last few months is moving all of my team to one place and everybody was freaking out. Well, what do you mean? You're like like we were so embarrassed on like how everyone is talking to their agents.
1:08:08Oh, interesting. and and like I got pushed back and then like I we did it anyhow and then everybody felt embarrassed for a day and now everybody's learning so much. It's like because we all have a mental model on how we use agents and it is very different because that was not something we shared. Are you sharing your code sessions? I'm sure you have some really interesting questions.
1:08:31And and I' I've actually I've actually wanted that uh back in the deep research era. I would see Tyler Cowen talk about how he was getting a bunch of value for economic research and I was like I would love for him just to be able to click share share the prompt and the result because I might never think to ask that question and we've never really developed a pattern around oh yeah it's totally normal to just go on Twitter and share a link to a chatbt transcript occasionally you see rock responses they like to take credit for
1:09:01yeah they like to take credit for it it's like it's good content you did the research it did the research. You thought of the question.
1:09:07Where are you? Where are you um going through, you know, the first kind of era with with Open Claw and and then now this personal agent boom, where are you actually where have you seen a bunch of agent like personal agent activity and you're actually like I don't think that that will be a paradigm. So, for example, like shopping is a good example. Like a lot of shopping with with agents right now is like walking up to the front of a store and asking a person outside of the store like, "Hey, I think I want to get this thing." And
1:09:36then they can you give me some information on it and then then maybe they go in and they come back. And it's this sort of like strange dynamic where you maybe at at some points it just makes sense to go into the store and see all the information as a um and and so there's like every single one of these you know big debate around restaurant reservations in the last you know 48 hours as well right and so it's like where are these areas where you're you've seen some activity and you're like it doesn't even make sense to like really focus on that from a product standpoint.
1:10:04There's so many companies that want to own the experience and I don't want to talk to your agent. I want my agent to be able to use your system in the way it thinks it's best.
1:10:16But then they they push their own agent and they block my agent and I just go somewhere else.
1:10:20Yeah, I Well, ultimately we don't see how that will play out. But let me let me use my agent. Yeah, I like my agent.
1:10:28Let make your service good so my agent can use it. Now we have like the agent wars. I feel Yeah.
1:10:34Like there's big companies that that block their website making agent wars.
1:10:42But here's an example. So shopping, going back to shopping, there's all these, let's say, like companies that make uh sneakers, right, that are super desirable and there's more demand than supply. Well, they've had bots trying to block for a long time.
1:10:53Block other bots forever. And now people are just going and they want a generic pair of sneakers and they're getting blocked, right? Um, and and even like an agent that is sufficiently aligned to the user is going to you can just set it, hey, when this thing drops, go and make sure that we're the first person to buy it.
1:11:11And yet that's that's a thing that like the companies have been trying to block for well, if you cling on to your old ways without reyncing how else we could do it, maybe you have to reync some system.
1:11:22Maybe the who clicks fast enough is no longer the right way. I don't know. So I I bought I bought like the Steam machine and there was just like a window of a week where you could register and then date the lottery. You know that doesn't matter if my agent clicks in 0.1 seconds or as a human click in in in 1 hour.
1:11:37Everyone gets the same chance. So there's a lot of ways where we just need to rethink how he did things in the past because it no longer makes sense.
1:11:46Instead you want to block my agent and I buy something else.
1:11:48Yeah. How do you think about agents going outbound becoming more proactive?
1:11:54Uh uh everything from openclaw to chajbt has been very userprompted. I come to chbt I ask a question otherwise it doesn't do anything it just sits there really but it feels like we're about to enter a more proactive I'm already seeing it in chacht it'll recommend some prompts and you can imagine the future where I'm more in the response category and oh I want an agent that's always thinking okay it should be thinking about this interview right now.
1:12:22Yeah. And and then maybe I have like a hidden screen I can Oh yeah, you will need meat proxy.
1:12:30Uh it is also really hard to do. Yeah, it's a design problem, right?
1:12:34Yeah. Not just it's also a hardware problem. Like like give us more tips.
1:12:39Yeah. Incredible amount of sprints.
1:12:40You you want looking at everything on your calendar and saying you have an interview. So I went and did a deep research. Here's what John likes to talk about. Here's what Jordy talks about. And they did all of this. They put it together, put it in a video and an audio and they gave it to you in every single way. It's a game and I want Astro 6 ultra fast thinking about my day and not just looking like if everyone would do that just not work today.
1:13:00This is the country of geniuses in a Roomba. So to decide where to go next it down the stairs.
1:13:07It's Yep. Exactly. It's deploying an incredible amount of int super intelligence to to solve the most mundane things. But it does feel like that that is maybe the natural flow which is in the shopping analogy like like the credit card permeated shopping and it took a pretty complicated uh dance of are you writing a check who are you write the check pay with cash I give you the change etc to just tap the card and there's another world where the inventory and sizing is checked behind
1:13:36the scenes all through my agent talking to your agent and I think any any worldview that assumes that only one side of the interaction will be agent mediated is mistaken. I think that uh if there might be a world where in the future our agents have talked to each other for the equivalent of a million years to prep us, but I don't think there's any world where where my agent is spamming you with tons and tons of emails and you're and you're flooded and you don't have anything you don't have any defenses.
1:14:05The Asian war going to fight AI with AI.
1:14:07Exactly. The agent war will happen below the below the fold and we will both be blissfully ignorant of the of the trench warfare that's going on.
1:14:15I mean, if anything, it's it's keep being interesting.
1:14:19Like nothing slowing down.
1:14:21I I kind of dig that we finally arrived in this world where so many people cannot try agents.
1:14:28Yeah. But also, you know, there's too many people that just we build all these super intelligent things, but we're not really good at explaining people what you can actually do with it.
1:14:40There's still a lot of work to do.
1:14:41Yeah. What are you tinkering with this uh these days? I feel like a lot of people are getting the the hardware bug, the robotics bug, the video game bug, 3D rendering. I went back into Blender for the first time in years. Uh, are there any new uh like I I mean I imagine everything blends together, but are there any uh areas that have uh interested you because of the model advances? You're like, "Oh, I want to go check that out, build a build a robotic
1:15:09arm that paints or or build a video game or something like that."
1:15:13Robotics definitely something I I bought some stuff and I I'll play more. But yeah, I'm really very interested in as the models get better, how much more can we move up the stack.
1:15:24So you you just you you said before about this like agents building hierarchies.
1:15:30Like how can I how can I build this? I want I want to I want to build an agent that that creates those hierarchies almost on demand.
1:15:38Like if I tell the agent, hey, rewrite Postgres in Rust. I don't know like okay let's figure out it's like oh like is Peter okay? Yeah.
1:15:49And but maybe also okay is serious and how can we plan this? What structure does it needs to be created on and also over wet timeline because maybe you want you want Postgress rewritten in Rust and you want to use it maybe you want it now but maybe you want of course you want it now but maybe you want it in a couple months and so it's like okay well you're going to throw this on the back burner cook on it for a while. I I mean I've noticed this where there's certain things where I'm like oh this is actually something I'd like to play with tomorrow. I'll set a goal and run it
1:16:17overnight and if it's rendering something and it's sitting there, it's fine. And then other times it's it's fast mode. Let's get it done.
1:16:23Like I I was very unapologetic on trusting the models.
1:16:28And where people to the point where people were mocking me, oh, this will never work. It's slob.
1:16:34Well, look where it got me. And yes, it's SL, but also yes, we're going to make it better and the models will keep improving. And then slowly people are waking up and we move from this world where of course you look at every line of code like we scroll through it.
1:16:49So and it's not stopping. It's not stopping. There's still and there's so much of how we do all those things around this that need rethinking. Yeah.
1:16:58And I I I just find that super interesting.
1:17:00How do you think about your personal workflows? Sam earlier was saying historically you would want to think of 30 ideas and maybe whittle it down to one and just work on that for a few months. It feels like the success of OpenClaw came because you shipped 30 things in 60 days.
1:17:19But but are you still trying to do that internally where you're just building again silly silly little kind of projects just to see what's possible to to almost generate more robust ideas that you can then invest more time in. Well, these days I kind of get annoyed if I can't change software as a prompt.
1:17:36Got so used to like having all the tools myself that now I'm kind of annoyed at the operating system, you know, because it's feel like it's last frontier. That's why like I started shifting more towards hey, Linux is not actually cool.
1:17:48Because yeah, there's like a lot of problems, but I like problems and and and it's all textbased problems and my agent just goes down and reads the kernel and recompiles the kernel and now my webcam works. Yep.
1:17:58Yeah. And then that gets me excited. Yeah. Like, oh wow, I can now literally own the stack and there's nothing we cannot fix anymore. Like everything is fixable. Nothing is everything is still hard, but nothing's impossible. Yeah.
1:18:11Like yeah, I could write my own OS. Maybe it's still hard, but like let's see with enough tokens and like advances that ridiculous thing will not be that ridiculous anymore in the future.
1:18:22Well, yeah. It's it's interesting too because the agent actually becomes the operating system in many ways. Like I I I grew up using Mac computers and never never had like a like a a Windows PC at home ever in my whole life.
1:18:37Very blessed. Very blessed.
1:18:39Um but I got a I got a like a sim racing rig, right? And so I have a PC for the first time. I'm like I don't know how to do anything on this thing. But you just set up codecs which computer use and you just talk to it and you tell it what you want to do and it just it just does.
1:18:53I I built I built a little ESP uh device and it has display issues. So I glued my webcam to the display codeex rip overnight and fix the display driver.
1:19:02That's so you know all you need to do is think about ways how your agent can do the best work. Close the loop and then the problem was I also told her to fix audio and then I was waking up hello testing it. Hello ESP the whole night cuz it took so long for it to figure out that the volume was down on the other thing. Well, eventually it learned.
1:19:19That's so funny. So funny. Yeah. Yeah.
1:19:22That's amazing. Um uh uh are are you you said you you you put the team together, but that was digitally correct. You said you put all the the whole team is now sharing what they're what they're prompting their agents. But physically, how what's your day-to-day look like?
1:19:40How much time are you in San Francisco?
1:19:42Oh, I'm here. I'm here. Yeah. And I Yeah, we basically have two teams. I I I do a lot of work on the foundation side.
1:19:49We we pushed it forward and then there's a lot of a lot of things inside Open where we tried new ideas. There's a lot of hey, we tried this. How can we make this into something that's a one product?
1:20:02Yeah. You know, so so there's some there's some crosspollination. I take some ideas back as well because I want to like to play with them. Some of you disagree on ideas. Not everything works in in in that scale to that scale. You know, it's a very different way how you need to build things.
1:20:17But it's kind of cool. So yeah, I have a lot of jobs.
1:20:21I love it. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.
1:20:24What a what a year.
1:20:25Thanks for having me. Great to see you.
1:20:27See you next year hopefully.
1:20:28Hopefully sooner than that. We'd love to chat with you again. Uh up next we have Tibo, the CEO of the Reset Company of California.
1:20:38uh the the master of resets coming on the show. Tibo, here we go. Taking a photo. Can we pan over to them?
1:20:46Tibo, thank you so much for coming on the show. How you doing?
1:20:50We're going to have you throw that headset on. The microphone goes on the left. I think you got it right. There we go.
1:20:56I wish you brought the button. I wish you brought the button.
1:20:59Oh, he already pushed it today.
1:21:02It was a one time use.
1:21:04Yes. But the physical button is a great manifestation of uh of all the hard work. Uh how is dev day going? What what are your reactions?
1:21:12The vibes are awesome in person.
1:21:13Yeah. I feel everyone I talked to here seems super excited. Maybe not about the things that I thought they would be most excited about. Mostly ecosystem and you know us opening up like signin with we can talk.
1:21:26That was that was the thing that was the thing that stood up.
1:21:29I you know we we we had it on a on a screen and I stood up and just like like you know I'm watching my team play you know but but to me that was a standout thing because even even having Peter on just now like Peter didn't have the ability to offer massive amounts of compute to the world and so he made a bunch of product decisions because of that right the you know local approach things like that and now if you're a developer and you have product experiences that you
1:21:58want to um deliver to customers you can do that in a way that will be much much more costefficient Yeah. So maybe reset on that experience, explain what actually was announced today and then we'll go into the discussion.
1:22:10Sure. Um but just yeah briefly on that Peter part. I think like the great thing is you can now focus on like building great product.
1:22:17You know instead of like focusing like on like you know how do I make the token economics make sense?
1:22:22Um yeah a lot of things were announced like maybe even like too many things.
1:22:25Yeah. No, that that was that was my I mean I I I always I always I always default when I'm talking to you know 70some you know portfolio companies when they're like we're going to launch this fund raise and this thing all on the same day I'm like just break it up launch it you know spread it out over over two weeks but in some ways seeing this live I was like okay it actually makes sense it's fun to have this moment where all these things and it creates this like pressure around the team to deliver.
1:22:50Yeah. So the the thing I'm most excited about because it has changed the way I work so much and I can't wait to see what people do with it is like obviously dots.
1:23:00Um where I think this is just a new way of packaging a lot of the things that we were seeing working before like very long running agentic the configuration that we have like the agent never stops it occasionally it sleeps.
1:23:14Yeah. But it's always online, always doing proactive research, thinking about your goals, thinking about your preferences, and then you just steer it live. Just, you know, you would give feedback to anyone else. You just give your dot a little bit feedback. It learns. And so the more you interact with it and the more you teach it about your preferences, the better a job it does. And at some point, you know, a couple days in, you're like, "Wow, you know, just can't really quite imagine doing work without this thing." Yeah.
1:23:39So, it becomes like super delightful.
1:23:40But it's something that you need to invest a little bit of time in. Do you think developers are already do you think developers are more in a mindset to adopt dots or more excited about uh sort of diffusing AI throughout their organizations to parts of the organization that may have not be like not they haven't onboarded workflows onto codecs necessarily because it's been like intimidating. Is that part of the next leg up here?
1:24:10Yeah, I think democratizing and they're figuring out like what is the natural way to interact with these things. Um, you know, if you're like, oh yeah, you know, like fire up codec in the terminal, it's like, you know, it's capable of editing documents and it's capable of creating slides and you're like there were incredible marketers and finance people that were doing that, but there is value to wrapping things up nicely, right?
1:24:32Yeah. And then also making sure that it's it's safe and it's secure like right out of out of the box. um that you know configuration is like really minimal. It does something useful you know within the first 5 minutes and you don't have to be super technical but just kind of still feel like the power of it right you know it's like and that that's that's what we're doing with dots um and then in the future you know we'll we'll ship a lot of this the same technology and the capabilities like you know read in chatt as well yeah for you know our 1.2 2 billion users.
1:24:59But really, it's about like getting to the essence of like, you know, how how much can you simplify really?
1:25:05Yeah. Uh talk about the current state of the difference between the model and the harness. It feels like this year we went through the whole narrative like the harness really matters and I'm interested in uh the lessons from both the harness matters and specifically codecs as a harness in DOTS. How much translated? How much similar lineage is there? Or is it possible we're even in a different regime and I'm using the wrong metaphor?
1:25:32Like the it's it's like this interesting tension between the model and the harness and you know you always build the harness a little bit ahead of the capabilities of of the model in order to like kind of make up for it and and then the next generation of models kind of catches up to that and then you have to delete part of your harness because it's actually holding it back.
1:25:53Yep. Um and so this like it's very playful and dynamic. Um it's a dance. Yeah, it's a dance, right? It's this beautiful dance of the model, the harness.
1:26:02The the codex harness is used to power dots. Um so like the same open source harness that we have and then we also use it to power the agents API we have which is like you know managed agents um and a lot of effort is going into this harness to just make it very efficient, safe, secure and so I would say like right now that's most of the benefits that you get from this harness like just really a hardened thing.
1:26:26Yeah. And then on the complexity of the tools, it's like, you know, we're like just really just really minimizing that because the current generation of models just like so so good.
1:26:35And is that how I should think about the specialist dots as as sort of fine-tuned harnesses for certain workflows? What what is the mental model to sort of deploy those specialist dots across an organization? Yes, we have a lot of specialist thoughts at company eye and the difference is that you use the existing systems within your company in order to provision the identity and then the access and the machine. Okay.
1:27:01So we have them running on Mac minis.
1:27:03Okay. Um so we provision them like exactly like employees like we mel we meant like a new little identity and then you know it's like it's got this IM and the roles and so we we have like you know very good security story there and then we give them like a very premium machine as well because the model is incredibly capable under the hood like you know dots are like beyond PhD level right um and you know if you look at Astra it's just like incredibly capable at like computer use y so your dot can just like use a computer just like you would
1:27:32and so by giving them like premium hardware as well as like you know it just even increases their capabilities further and so we have these set up and inside of OpenAI they do all sorts of thing in including procurement for example.
1:27:43Sure. Yeah. On computer use can you help me understand the levers that are being pulled to speed up computer use? I noticed a jump between uh 55 and Astra.
1:27:56Um, but I wasn't exactly sure whether the speed up was coming from like a fast mode or or the actual model or the harness. Like what are the levers? Like what scaling law are we following to when I I mean I was demoing it with a video game like Slire just because it's visual and I can watch it work and I know how fast I can click. Uh, and I'm interested to know like when act we keep joking about it like playing Call of Duty and we're like, well, it's clearly not there yet, but are we is it is it a
1:28:2510x speed increase every year? Like how do you even like what are the levers?
1:28:28You're going to accidentally create an aimbot for every single video game ever created maybe. But but how much of that is happening in the harness and the model both? Like how do you even how do you even think about understanding the progress in computer use speed? I I do think we have seen a 10x over one year speed up and it's not that we made the model sample faster. Okay, obviously fast and ultra fast plays a role if you want to go even faster. But that is not what we improved uh in terms of computer use. It's both
1:28:58the harness and the model. So when you think about the model is like how much does it need to think before it can take the next action reliably. Yeah, that's one element that we really improved. The other one is that we take safety super seriously. So we don't just click around and let the primary agent do things like we have a second agent which we call auto review or internally we call it guardian which watches over this primary agent is like actually oh wait a second you're entering you know this
1:29:26uh sensitive information on this website like this domain is not quite right you know you should stop that action and so it intervenes there. So we also made this autoreview model faster.
1:29:34Yeah. And then the harness because we had Astra uh Tasel talked about this like we were able to kind of use Astra at scale in order to improve the performance of the harness. Sure. Do more things in parallel. Um you know remove little stalls and then just really innovate there as well. It's like it's all open source. So you know you can go and dig and figure out you know exactly which techniques we used and then combined all of this together you know then we got this 10x speed up.
1:29:59Yeah. Uh, next year is the 10-year anniversary of the first OpenAI Dota competition. I think it was oneon-one and then they did the Dota 5 a couple years later. And I and my my big question and prediction is like will a stock open AI model with computer use be able to beat that original model?
1:30:20And and it's going to be it's going to be close because it's got to be actions per minute. It's not just the reasoning. I think I think if you were able to pause the game and cook on a you know really a really advanced model you'd be able to get there but the computer use is like the final thing and I think that's going to be pretty magical.
1:30:36Yeah, if you if you look at um ultraast today on Astra it's 300 tokens per second.
1:30:43Okay. So um and maybe I got to go demo it today.
1:30:46Not quite that. We know one token is one action. Yeah. Right. It's more going to be like you need 20 tokens to take one action, right? So yeah um you know you're going to have you know 30 uh actions per second which is decent amount and then it's all like how smart is the model like you know can it actually reason about long-term strategy and movement and all the past actions and what we're seeing is that um currently we we we we announced as well decisions API we further tuned the constraint so that
1:31:16uh you can make decisions extremely fast so you can make one decision roughly every 200 milliseconds.
1:31:21Yeah. Um, so speed is just like we're just progressing way faster than even I had anticipated six six months ago.
1:31:29And I think we'll see like you know definitely like real time um real time actions uh within the next year and like beating that original model. Yeah.
1:31:38So so uh yeah I mean I I I love those announcements. They're always really interesting. Uh so many different models and and speeds and cost tradeoffs and paro charts and all sorts of stuff at the same time. uh how much do you want users to actually understand that internalize that become experts there versus just wait a little bit and it'll be entirely delegated to the harness or to the company even or the product. Uh
1:32:06I'm just wondering how long we stay in this regime of understanding the model picker. Uh because there's some real value that comes from being able to you know think okay we need this we need this chart but we need it right now. So, I'm gonna, you know, but that could just be in the prompt like go to your dot and say, "Hey, I need I need a best estimate of revenue for my business right now."
1:32:29Or, "Hey, look, we I need you to go reconcile the books, so get it to me by Monday."
1:32:35Yes. The way that you think about it, it feels exactly right. Um, humans don't have a knob, right? So, you just you just tell it in natural language. Yeah. You're like, I need this right now or I need this tomorrow or you have a $100 in order to achieve this this goal. I'm throwing a big party. Yeah, I want to spend 50 bucks. It's like good luck.
1:32:54But the model should just adapt and like the system should adapt and you know configure exactly like how many resources it should it should use in order to achieve your goal.
1:33:02And that's what we're working towards.
1:33:04With dots in a way we already simplify things massively. There's no model picker like your dot is just there. It's available 247. You can text it. It modulates its effort depending on the ask. And it might not be perfect. This is also why we're announcing it at dev day. We want to build it with the community and like we're learning with the pro users.
1:33:22Um but eventually it will be so good that you will kind of be shocked that we had a model picker. Yeah.
1:33:28Yeah. How are you spending uh how are you allocating your time? Because I imagine you're sleeping like four hours a night but the other 20 hours piece of mind.
1:33:37Yeah. The other uh Yeah. Whatever the other 20 hours a day, how much time are you spending on like recruiting and like who are you actually looking for there?
1:33:45You you the team is firing on all cylinders. is you want to make sure when you're adding people they're they're they're you know speeding up the team versus slowing you down. But recruiting versus everything else on your plate.
1:33:56Yeah, I spend a decent amount of recruiting but I try to do more than one thing at once, right? So for example, I might talk to an exciting candidate and have a a really fun conversation about an idea that I think you know either the team is already pursuing or you know something new and speculative that we're thinking about. It's like I'm kind of trying to see like you know what this other person is also um you know how they would kind of handle it you know if they were on the team and so it's not that I'm you know actually kind of
1:34:25wasting my time in an interview um and doing anything boring there I'm like actively thinking about the work and already simulating them being part of the team which then also is interesting to myself like you know as it sort of evolves my thinking um sometimes in you know quite novel ways so I would say like interacting with other people and like you know I'm always looking for great new candidates to join the team. I would say it's like you know 20% of my time. How do you think about uh the the longer term
1:34:51ramifications of of of memory and going deeper with a particular agent and system uh because there there's this interesting thing where uh right now OpenAI has business relationships and there are some companies that have gone allin and and at the same time there are individuals who have gone allin on codecs and have complex workflows and there's more memory there. But there is a world that I could imagine where if
1:35:20somebody shows up on my team and and and they're doing their work and I notice that they're searching the internet using Bing. I'm probably not going to say, "Hey, look, this is a Google organization." But I would say, "Okay, we use Gmail, not Outlook. You're on this particular email system." And there's some sort of interaction there that feels like are we going to are we going to be more in the regime of you have your agent your tooling and you and I'm hiring you to work with me and you bring all of what whatever tools you use
1:35:49or is there going to be a regime where hey you're joining a particular shop like a Rails shop you're writing Rails you're writing Ruby uh or this is a Python shop so I need to get up to speed on that. Have you thought about where this goes in the longer term? Yeah, it it also again it feels like the way that you're thinking about it feels very natural. So just like humans, you know, you don't want to just like reexplain the same thing over and over again. And you know, if you're a real shop, like, you know, you hired the person and you're like, "Hey, you know, you understand we're a real shop. Here's the
1:36:21Learn, you know, how we do things over here and then, you know, try your best to do it. If you don't get it quite right, I'll provide you feedback.
1:36:27Yeah. Um and so this is very much the same um that we're thinking about it for dots and agents in general.
1:36:33Space is you know like a shared memory system that you maintain across your organization. you know, you have your own notes, but you know, you also have like collective notes. And so, for example, you could just write in there like, hey, you know, we're a real shop, you know, like here are the things that you need to know about. And then, you know, the first thing that does just like just goes and and reads about it.
1:36:51And then memory system is something that we have quite uh perfected and are continuing to innovate on like with the ability to stay, you know, have coherent memory over very very long um u periods of time. So you don't want to give feedback today and then learn that you know two weeks later it's just like um you know kind of like completely forgotten about it. It's just like you know painting the house blue again when you're like I really don't like that color.
1:37:14Yeah. Yeah. Uh yeah it's a fascinating interaction of all these things. But thank you so much for coming breaking it down.
1:37:19Yeah. I wish we had more time. I I I think that uh the the intensity around your ex account is something that like I I think very very very few uh people at companies at any point in modern history have had to deal with like I I actually but as I' as we've gone through this year just like seeing how much just how much attention is focused on the next thing that you post and then what you have to go through to actually balance all of that
1:37:49feedback in real time and understand where am I right, where were we off and then adapt. It's uh it's been incredible to watch. So yeah, uh good luck out there.
1:38:00Yeah, we'll see. Maybe the DOT's been running the account and that's that's the big reveal. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
1:38:06Up next, we have Kath Corvac coming on to the show. Kath, welcome to TBPN. Thank you so much for taking the time. It's a little windy.
1:38:16Little windy. do whatever you need to to get adjusted. Take a seat.
1:38:21Great to have you.
1:38:22Thank you for having me.
1:38:24I didn't expect a hug from from the man.
1:38:29Um, for those who don't know you, please introduce yourself. Tell us a little about your role at OpenAI.
1:38:34Yeah. I'm Kath. I'm a product manager. I work on GPT sites. Chat GPT sites.
1:38:40Uh, what has the traction been with sites?
1:38:43Oh, it's been huge. Yeah.
1:38:44So, let's see. I don't know what I'm approved to say, but I think I can say I think I have a dock here.
1:38:49I want the number whatever went out.
1:38:5110 million sites created in under three months since launch.
1:38:54Yeah. So, we launched three months ago.
1:38:56I'm responsible for like 45 of those. I I I make them for everything. I love them. It's like my favorite product. I I love sites.
1:39:02The wildest use case is like looking at uh John was like looking at a bunch of different products online and just instantly building this wild. You know, this was this was like a couple months ago. Specifically, it was specifically I would take uh I was looking for a house.
1:39:17I would take a Zillow listing, send the link to Codeex and say go and download all the photos, uh restyle them with images, and then put it together in a site where you can swipe left to right to see if this house went through a remodel, would it look better?
1:39:34And then styling it in in the way that in based on your So you know, okay, this house is this this style of architecture from this year. this would be a faithful uh you know evolution of this. It wouldn't just you know change the architectural style.
1:39:49And then I'd made so many sites that I told it to make a meta site to like put all them together and create like an atlas and all do this. Oh yeah.
1:39:58And and I I mean I have a couple but I'll send it to you and like how to organize it alling because that's like that's when you know you've like hit the limit.
1:40:07That's when you actually have to organize this. So did you tell did you tell it or what your preferences were or did you give it like specifically John has like very specific tastes. So any if he was going to go through a a remodel it's wants it to look a specific way.
1:40:21The image model takes that into account and then nails it within the context of that space. But it was so helpful because a lot of times you'll see a house that went through a remodel and it prices higher and then a house that's pre- remodel it's lower price and you're like okay well if you equalize these and Zillow has a feature for this that lets you sort of like redecorate a little bit on some houses that list but not all of them. And so this was a nice way to just uh style and then I could just pass it around to like family members and show them. It was great experience.
1:40:49So did it show you this is more real estate question than it is well let's go real estate. We got we got a whole mansion section. We can talk cars if you want. We can do whatever you want. This is the show. We don't only talk about AI. So, but I'm I'm curious if it could do something. And maybe you weren't like asking it to do this. Yeah.
1:41:04But, you know, like when you go through a remodel, your home value either like goes up or goes down based on what you're doing. So, if you're like, I'm going to add a white kitchen or something. Or if you add a pool, your home value goes down. When you think like, oh, pool is like fancy.
1:41:17So, it did all of that. It looked at it looked at uh price per square footage for remodel homes in the particular neighborhood block by block finding comps building all the comp sheets and then figuring out okay what is the realistic building cost for specific things creating itemized list of how much you'd spend on architect versus raw materials and then would you have the the the correct gap to support that based on like a 10-year holding period basically. So it did truly truly personal super intelligence because five years ago the amount of
1:41:46experts and like okay I don't have time to build the website so I need someone else to like build this thing and I need I need to be able to like compare contra Yeah. It would be yeah and my and my end conclusion was just like it's just going to speed up the economy because more people will be doing like the remodels more people will be buying stuff because they'll have more confidence in these things. Uh it was yeah it was a it was a delightful experience.
1:42:06This is why we built sites. Yes. Okay. So it we built it for work related stuff for sure, but also people use it for personal personal use cases.
1:42:16I do. I just built a site. I don't I don't want to have to go I I like tinkering with hardware. Sure.
1:42:21I want to have like Do you guys know the Skylight? Uh it's like a family um organizer. Yeah. Calendar. I don't want to go and and buy it. I'm sure it's like a fantastic product.
1:42:32But I don't want to buy it. I want to build it myself.
1:42:34You mean you mean the picture frames that cycle through images? It specifically links to calendar. Yeah. But they have their own software and everything that's like specific for families. Yep.
1:42:42So I don't want to do that. So I'm building one with with Ches Beauty sites.
1:42:45Oh, and then sites is the back end basically.
1:42:47And we just launched plugins and sites today and so I can like hook it up to my calendar and then I can have and then with a prompt you can iterate on it and say, "Okay, I want to change this change the color. We're going with this theme. It's Christmas. Make it a Christmas theme."
1:42:58Yeah. Exactly. And I can like hook it up to my kids calendar school and do all that stuff.
1:43:02I think it's really good for Yeah. on the-fly UI like uh I was discussing potential guests for throughout the rest of the year. Had uh basically Deep Research pull a bunch of potential people that are you know one step away from guests we've had on the show but instead of just giving me a big long list I was like just build me a website where I can thumbs up thumbs down share with the team very easy. Uh how does that interface with space? How how do you see these products linked? Is there going to be another merge? Everything's merging all the time.
1:43:28Oh there's always a merge. There's always a merge and then an unmmerge toggles everywhere. This is the light.
1:43:33So sites are in space. Okay.
1:43:35And that's very intentional. Sites are a very um they're a very collaborative place and you can add editors to your site. You can add co-editors, co-authors, etc.
1:43:43Um and it's a very rich environment to to work in. You can like build a site, you can share it with somebody else. Um we have a lot of people at OpenAI who are doing like we have our IT team is using this to manage like where everybody is in the world. Yeah. and they're sharing those sites with other people like around the world who are like boots on the ground managing security. And so they want to see like they want to see like okay who's flying in today? Is there an event happening?
1:44:08Is there like how was the weather? Is there a weather event happening? Like all of that stuff. Yeah.
1:44:11And so they'll add co-editors, co-authors, everything to their site to manage it inside spaces. What's cool is that um you can you have all of your artifacts right there available for everybody. So you'll see us kind of like cross referencing stuff, making stuff uh inside space more and more interchangeable. And so you'll be able to like inside uh pages be able to reference sites and vice versa. And uh slides are launching soon. A lot of
1:44:39people are are making slides with with sites. You'll be able to put those into spaces really easily. So it's um what what's the timeline for this to be available to anyone? like is there is if you go far enough in the future can somebody on a free chat GBT plan create a website?
1:44:58Oh yes. Yeah. So we are very very interested in making it available to everybody. We have to figure out like infrastructure how to how to price it appropriately etc. Like we just launched three months ago so we're still kind of learning but we are also uh working with the consumer.
1:45:17Your site will have ads all over it. Banner ads for everything you do. That's still free. You know, a big use case is ecom.
1:45:25So, we could do, you know, there's a lot here that we could we could I want to go back to the angel fire world. I don't know if you remember that, but like it was free web hosting and you'd have these uh these banner ads, crazy display ads all over that you couldn't remove. I'm hoping we get away from the ad.
1:45:43Well, we'll have to disagree on that. We are huge fans of advertising and so I love it in like unique way.
1:45:51People are like, "Well, this this meeting could have been an email and I'm going to be like, well, your text to me, John, could have been a website."
1:45:58Basically there. We're basically there.
1:46:01Anyway, thank you so much for coming on the show. Congratulations launching the progress 10 million 10 million.
1:46:0710 billion soon. There's going to be more websites per person.
1:46:11So, we'll take that headset off. We'll hand it to our next guest.
1:46:15Ben, thank you so much for hopping on. And I believe we're ready for our next guest. We have none other than Casey Neistat.
1:46:23Um, Casey, welcome to the show. Good to see you. How you doing?
1:46:27Has that been on the table?
1:46:28This has been on the table.
1:46:29Been trying to take it out, but it survives.
1:46:32Why don't you introduce this? What is this thing?
1:46:34Oh, you have live.
1:46:35Funny you should ask.
1:46:37No. So, this is the this is the first chromatic transparent custom chromatic that we made at I love this styling. Yeah.
1:46:44For this event today.
1:46:47We made I'm not sure if I'm supposed to say the number. We made 8,000 of them to make sure every attendee could leave with them.
1:46:55Um I will say that breaking news.
1:46:59This was announced on stage by Sam like an hour and a half ago. There's one currently on eBay for $4,000.
1:47:05Yeah, I was going to ask you. They got a trade in the in the in the aftermarket.
1:47:10Arbitrage. A lot of people are like, I'm going to wait to get home to to flip this. But not no not some enterprising attendee today who saw an opportunity and just got in there and it boom.
1:47:21But the specific integration of course codeex vibe coding the idea that you can uh create a custom game that runs on here. Is that the idea?
1:47:31Yeah. You know, like what we do at Mod Retro, the reason why we're like focused on retro gaming is it's about like the love and the fun of the the game you're playing.
1:47:39Mine came with Tetris. It was fantastic.
1:47:42I rarely take Tetris out of mine.
1:47:44It's my it's my anti Tetris cartridge stays in catharsis for me.
1:47:49Yeah, I did buy a crazy cartridge that had like some modern technology had like 400 games on there and that was really cool. But, you know, that sounds super unofficial.
1:48:01But what this is and what it is today is naughty naughty.
1:48:06I don't know if I get in trouble for buying it. I think the person should have sold it. Maybe we built a custom plugin.
1:48:11Um for codeex and it enables you to sort of vibe code games.
1:48:16What's special about it is that you're not you're not constricted to playing that on an emulator on your laptop. You can like you can flash it to this cartridge immediately.
1:48:24Yep. It's amazing.
1:48:25And I think like the best way of framing it is like Torren, our CEO. Yeah. and his 5-year-old Yeah.
1:48:31vibecoded a game and then he was able to flash it and hand the chromatic to his kiddo and have him playing it right away.
1:48:36Yeah. And it's something that like leans into the constraints. Like you see I've seen a bunch of demos that are like, "Oh, this new model's so powerful. I just gave it one prompt and it made a AAA Call of Duty GTA 6 video game." And I'm like, "Okay, let's uh let's calm down. You made a 30 second video of something that actually looks kind of janky and probably doesn't have anywhere near the pre of GTA just yet. We'll get there, but for now, this is the sweet spot. Like, I know that you can actually
1:49:05deliver something that's fun and entertaining and fullfeatured and not buggy when you're constrained to this screen and just these buttons and you're not also also the exciting thing is having having a TAM of one, right? Like there's so many there's so many great idea and and when I say that I'm not saying the product, but I'm saying like there are great games where for a 5-year-old like he they will be the only person that that appreciates this game, right?
1:49:29And it's combining different parts of of their interests into something that would never have commercial appeal, could never get shipped or made. Now it can. And I think that's that's been sort of the story of every single category of AI use case where you can now make things that like again the example you were giving 10 minutes ago Yeah.
1:49:46It's like you would never spend the money or the time to make this comparison website only for yourself on the fly and now you can.
1:49:54Yeah. And I think it constraints is a great characterization because I think it it dubtales with like what our mission is at Mod Retro which is like embracing those constraints which which amplifies like the why part.
1:50:07You like we launched the M64 which is our Nintendo 64 console. We released that a month and a half ago and doing incredibly well. So much of the feedback we see is from like old people like me, 45, I was 15 when Nintendo 64 came out, introducing it to their kids.
1:50:23Yeah. Of course, you've got a dad or you've got a mom with their little ones. And it forces you because of those constraints like physically sit with my kids.
1:50:31And play Mario Kart. And when I think of that versus like when we catch our daughter, she's not allowed to play Roblox, but we catch her in her bedroom like hiding in the closet by herself with her iPad 6 inches from her place playing Roblox.
1:50:43Yeah. This just feels so antithetical to that because it is about like the social aspect. It's about the camaraderie. It's about the fun. Yeah.
1:50:50And I think like that's that's what today and this partnership was emblematic of. It's like you can create something that's fun. They say check this out.
1:50:57Yeah. It's so funny that like I I think a lot of we're all parents here and I think all a lot of parents are going through this like I just want the same experience that I had for my kids and then there's literally a company that's like yeah you can do that.
1:51:11It's such a simple value prop. It's it's it's a funny it's a funny ex like philosophical exploration because there's a part of it which is like is it just our old man nostalgia?
1:51:23And you know Palmer our founder has like a really curt response to that which is no.
1:51:28It was just better.
1:51:29It was better than And I think about that because like you know we bought our daughter this summer a point and shoot camera.
1:51:35And it was like the biggest deal for her.
1:51:37Yeah. and like she has a camera on her iPad, but having a point andoot camera, this singlepurpose device, it meant so much to her.
1:51:44And I think that we're starting to see like technology start to go for full circle. Yeah.
1:51:49Like we have these stupid little black rectangles of Doom that live in our pockets that you can do everything on.
1:51:55But there's something about whether it's like a wired headphone, point and shoot camera, a device that you have to physically put a cartridge in to play a singular game.
1:52:04Yeah. I think it's about the relationship between the the person and the technology. I feel like we've gotten so far away from that with with the the rate of innovation getting away from us.
1:52:13Yeah. Yeah. Um I didn't mean to go so deep.
1:52:15No, no, no. I think a lot about No, I mean I' I've I've spent I mean I every I'll text John like Yeah.
1:52:23twice a month, maybe every week where I'm like everything that's good hasn't changed in 60 years, right? Um, and and and in many ways like having like machine intelligence is the only thing really that that I feel like has been super meaningful that's that's changed in that period. But when it comes to stuff specifically in the physical world, everything that's good has existed for like old restaurants, old hotels.
1:52:48Yeah. Cars cars got worse, you know, um, a bunch of things, you know, homes got worse. All all these different things.
1:52:55Um, toilet paper rolls or or paper towel holders. Was that is that your always example? Well, yeah, that's probably He wants a paper towel holder invented in the 1960s.
1:53:03Yeah, I've got one that has a Wi-Fi connection.
1:53:05Okay, you're on the opposite.
1:53:07It sends me alerts when I get low on toilet.
1:53:08No, but but the the cool thing is it feels like I really do think that um the all I do think all the hardware that we use is going to like change dramatically in in in a way over the next 10 years that it didn't in the last uh in the in the last 10 years. And part of why I think that is is because you have thousands of super smart people working on these new paradigms and form factors, but then you also have the software changing. And the first time we had Peter from OpenClaw on and he was
1:53:38just saying like he's now getting frustrated with the OS. It's not just the things that are happening as part of the or on top of the operating system. He's like he wants to go all the way because there's things that can just make more sense when you can generate an operating system almost on the fly.
1:53:52Yeah. I I think it's holistic. I think there's room for everything. But I I think what's been caught up in this like title wave of innovation that I felt has has sort of hit like a a a really aggressive inflection point in the last 10 to 15 years is that it sort of consumed everything. And I feel like we've kind of reached this plateau.
1:54:11We're able to pause and identify little areas where like no no that doesn't need that kind of innovation. And I think back to like if I'm if I'm if you'll allow me to be romantic about it.
1:54:22Like I got I think for my 10th birthday I got one of those yellow Sony Walkmans.
1:54:29And I treasured this thing. It meant the world to me. It was my most prized possession. I I took showers as a kid, but I would take a bath just so I could listen to music. Yeah.
1:54:38In the bathtub because I had a walk and they could get wet. And I think about that now and it's like technically Spotify is better.
1:54:45Than having Led Zeppelin cassette. Yeah, my yellow. It's better in every way technically, but it like Spotify will never mean to me what that device meant to me.
1:54:55And I think this romanticization of of technology is something we've we've drifted away.
1:55:00And the change in medium chain changed the message. You used to listen to a whole album and now Yeah. For me, it was the for me it was the iPod Shuffle.
1:55:07Oh, like having one, the little white one, the little square one, the clip one.
1:55:12Like to me to me that was that was the pinnacle of technology as a kid cuz I had I had this thing that was like a quarter. You could like throw it up and down and yet it was so powerful because music is so emotional and like it felt like it could take you on a whole journey be as entertaining as watching a movie just playing songs and you never knew what song was coming next.
1:55:32Part of the romance part of the romance.
1:55:34It was like gambling gambling with audio. It's like you know slot slot machine every time you press skip.
1:55:40Yeah. And I think we're gonna see I I feel it now, but this is my world that I live in. I think we're going to see this sort of looking back like I I I run across the Brooklyn Bridge seven days a week unless I wake up in San Francisco.
1:55:54And what's interesting that I've noticed in the last 5 years is it it used to always be people's iPhones. And now the amount of people I see with these antiquated 10-year-old point andoot cameras and they do and it's sort of a flex.
1:56:05Yeah. Of course, they're using this camera that is is objectively a lower quality camera that's what's on their phone. Yet it says something about them.
1:56:12In some ways, New York City is probably getting captured on film more now than than when film cameras were like the only way to to actually take a photo.
1:56:23Because the the diffusion like historically it probably wasn't like, you know, thousands of people spread across the city at all times getting every single angle. And yet now that actually is what's happening just constant. Yeah. My favorite 35mm point and shoot is this Olympus.
1:56:37Okay. 150 bucks when it came out in the in the as Yeah.
1:56:42And they stopped making it whatever 15 years ago. Every time I'd break one, I just buy it off of eBay for 50 bucks.
1:56:47I noticed a couple years ago that they weren't 50 anymore. They're like a hundred.
1:56:51Okay. Then it was like 200. My wife asked me for one for her birthday and I went to buy it was $400.
1:56:56Get a corner of the market.
1:56:57And now they're and now they're almost unavailable.
1:57:03And I think it's it's akin to like what we see with classic cars. Like people appreciate what these things were.
1:57:09I mean, that's what makes me so excited about retros point.
1:57:12Palmer's Yeah. Palmer's te some of he can't say anything, but Palmer's teased like I don't like connected TVs. I don't like music and I don't like cameras. And I'm like, yes, like the connect. I have this thing of like every the the frustration that I have with um hopefully this isn't just like my issue and I'm like not updating the software or something. let us hear. Let us hear.
1:57:33But but the the level to which uh like modern TVs, the software degrades to the point where you're like, "Okay, like I'm going to click. I'm going to click and I click too many times and now I got to go, you know, like have you followed along with this LG controversy?"
1:57:49Break it down for those who haven't.
1:57:50Okay. The TLDDR is that the most modern LG TV. They have the best panels.
1:57:54The best panels. Yeah. OLED. It's amazing.
1:57:56The most expensive.
1:57:58Um a couple of hackers, a couple They have a YouTube channel. I apologize. guys. I don't remember the name. They deserve a plug.
1:58:04But they broke down all of the software and they they determined that the microphone that was intended for like change it to HBO is actually listening all the time.
1:58:13So much so that when it wasn't when it wasn't connected to the network, it would store the audio files locally and then when it reconnected, it would upload it.
1:58:22I watched that and I was like, "Fuck, this is what Palmer's going on about with his desire to make a dumb TV." And then I realized in my bedroom where I sleep with my wife most nights, some nights have been together, you know, marriage, we have that LG.
1:58:37I know. I have one, too.
1:58:39So, I unplug it from the wall now when I walk into the bedroom.
1:58:42And it's just like No, but you remember how fast how snappy old TVs were? It was like you press a button, it was just instant.
1:58:48How snappy. I'm 45. For me, it was one of It was a physical dial with a long wire that immediate.
1:58:55Yeah. Yeah. Immediate. Immediate. Now we got to go back to wired remotes.
1:58:59Yeah, I'll be the first one to buy that.
1:59:01I Yeah, I I remember uh uh sort of some of my frustrations with the one of the one of the Meta Quests was that I found out that I had seven passwords because I had a keypad, a code, a meta password, an Instagram pay, Facebook password, an Oculus VR password. And and I and I showed this whole process of like what it takes to just take it and then play a game. And it was like 15 minutes. And then and then I play and then I just
1:59:30found a video of somebody turning on N64 and you just bing bing and you're on.
1:59:34Just turn it on. It's the same thing.
1:59:36Yeah. You're playing the game.
1:59:40In the other in the guest room in the doghouse.
1:59:42Yeah. In the doghouse.
1:59:43In order for me to download Netflix, I have to sign into Samsung. I don't have a Samsung and I don't want one. I just don't watch Netflix on this thing.
1:59:52Samsung, it is just so much. They ask so much of us.
1:59:56And it it's not better for the customer.
1:59:58No, it's terrible.
1:59:59Just want to suck that data from you to sell you more ads.
2:00:01It's terrible. It's terrible. Um, flipping over to the the creator economy, the creator side of things, I I have this uh idea that uh with with the the the advances in vibe coding, there is an opportunity basically for someone to make a game every single day for Mod Retro or or any platform, web games, and that muscle of doing something small every day would compound. I don't know that they would become the next GTA 6,
2:00:30but they would become something. And I'm wondering how you think about creativity and daily rituals, new platforms in a time of rapidly decreasing cost to create whatever it is.
2:00:44Yeah. I have a super cynical perspective on it and a wildly optimistic.
2:00:48So the optimistic one is like what is it? A million monkeys at a million typewriters and they'll eventually type out all of Shakespeare.
2:00:54Shakespeare. Yeah.
2:00:55I think that's there's a there's a math says that's going to happen. Whether it's vibe coding games or So you were the monkey on YouTube that typed Shakespeare.
2:01:05Yeah. Correct. Um but I didn't have vibe coding.
2:01:07And I didn't have AI video.
2:01:09No. And but you did have GoPros and Canon 5D and iMovie and YouTube.
2:01:14You didn't need to shoot on film.
2:01:16It didn't matter. I just kept uploading.
2:01:18And then like the line that that I share that often shocks people is I was I think very successful on YouTube. Very successful. And after hearing about the first time after after 7 years of a very successful presence on YouTube, I had 280,000 subscribers.
2:01:38And then I started the daily vlog. Yeah.
2:01:40I started I was the monkey that never left the 18 months later I had 10 million.
2:01:46Yeah. It's crazy. And I think if I had maintained that cadence, if the top of the funnel hadn't become more accessible, if the cameras hadn't gotten cheaper, if I hadn't gotten faster at editing because the technology enabled, that that inflection point would not have happened.
2:01:59So I am, yes, I am like the I am the original monkey at the typewriter. But I think now, especially what AI is doing, it's something that is much more complete.
2:02:08And when people on AI video, and when I say people, I mean me.
2:02:11Yeah. Um, I think it's going to get to a point where there's going to be something that's made on AI that's 100% I that's undeniably good and it's just going to sort of force people to be like, "Oh, I hated it cuz it was made with AI, but it was a really good movie."
2:02:26And eventually that negativity is going to start to wne. It will be sort of undeniable.
2:02:31Sure, there's some cynicism in there. I also think that that will enable uh especially when it comes to things like gaming, Yeah.
2:02:38creating software. Yeah. It's just when you open the top of the funnel that wide. Yeah.
2:02:42The amount of being made increases.
2:02:44But so does the amount of of quality stuff being made. Yeah.
2:02:47So I am highly optimistic that there are going to be these diamonds among a sea of coal lumps of coal. Yeah.
2:02:53That that will have real impact and be meaningful.
2:02:56I would also Yeah. When I when I think back like I used to work on little like iPhone games and I remember when I was like trying to just make Pong, right? It was like I was just trying to make the most simple possible game. The amount of like frustration where you go from like, you know, it's exhilarating because you you're you're making progress and then you you get like stuck on something and I was probably like 11 or something at the time. Then you get stuck on something for like two hours and it's like pure pain and you're like how do I
2:03:25figure out how to get through and then you get through and part of that is like very part of that is like extremely positive and like worthwhile lessons around like hitting blockers and pushing through. But the amazing thing with AI is like just being able to bust through those like much faster and then compound compound those learnings and and do an an individual person doing 10 times as much in the same period of time. And it's hard not to be excited about that.
2:03:49It's like a monkey with 10 hands. That's best analogy for We have to keep this monkey analogy.
2:03:55Yes. Well, on on the video side, the thing that I've been I think naturally everyone went from like, okay, I'm reading way more AI generated uh text and and that was over basically the last two years. And now it's getting harder and harder to tell. And I we even know people that produce a lot of AI written content, but they've figured out ways to make it not, you know, panagrammable.
2:04:18um at least uh obviously and now and now I've just noticed like way more way more like AI video which which is like working for me on some niche like where I'm like trying to learn specifically about a topic.
2:04:32Um but then but I keep getting hung up on this idea of like did the person that published that has owns the account did they actually review this video because I think that that's where the uh likeal Yeah. Yeah. Is there actual curation? Is there someone saying because specifically I'm thinking of um there's there's an account on Instagram that does like sim sim racing like okay tutorials lessons or whatever and so they're putting out like probably 20
2:05:01videos a day on different topics. And a lot of it is feels like generally right, but but the the where where it will break down is like if if you just if if the AI is effectively like reading an online forum and then just piping it into video and then that advice is like expired almost.
2:05:19Yeah. You're you're describing the modern news cycle.
2:05:22Like that is what you know Instagram, Tik Tok and you know X news is it's it's a it's a variant of what you're describing. This is why there's so much the the noise to signal ratio has just gotten so convoluted and difficult to navigate. I don't know maybe like a more acute example of something like that is like my favorite genre on YouTube is short esoteric World War II documentaries.
2:05:47There's a guy my favorite YouTuber on the planet his name is Mark Felton. Mark you know this guy.
2:05:53That's what I fall I fall asleep to that kind of guy.
2:05:54Me too. Every day when I get my sandwich at lunch and I sit in my office by myself, I watch one of his like a 50-year-old British historian. He is an objectively terrible filmmaker who makes the single best videos. It's just him narrating it over whatever images he could find. I watch that and then I also watch these 100% AI generated that clearly have a human editorial oversight because they're they're factually correct. Very well done. and they have all of the YouTube AI notifications all over them
2:06:23and it it doesn't bother me. Yeah, it doesn't bother me because it feels like I'm I'm reading something with visuals that are simply there to support it. It it's I'm very conscious that these are artificially generated images. They're just meant to sort of visualize what something looked like that wasn't actually captured. And for me, like those are the fissures. Yeah.
2:06:43I'm seeing as someone who's like an anti who's a purist when it comes to film making.
2:06:47Yet, I'm willing to tolerate that. I think that delta is going to that's why I don't I I never like AI content is already here. It's happening. There's going to be 10,000 times more of it in probably a lot of years. But I haven't been but I haven't been afraid because when I when I think about my favorite creators and where I'm actually spending attention today, it's like it's it's like the guy that you're just talking about, Mark Felton. There's another guy named Hi Sutton who's just obsessed with like
2:07:15naval warfare. Yes. And just nerds out about it and Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I I figured. But like he'll just basically press record and he has a presentation like slides he's going through some video. He's like I don't use AI. I just sort of sit here and talk and it's like incredibly captivating and interesting because you're listening to somebody like the world expert on the topic who maybe uses AI to learn about some stuff now like off off air but then he's just narrating it as a human and there's just
2:07:44I'm always going to have time in my day for the hi Sutton of the world.
2:07:48Yeah. Look, it's a it's a prelim proliferation of of podcasts on YouTube.
2:07:52Yeah. Like if I'm watching something like when I edit my own videos, like I will debate a single frame, a 24th of a second. Does this up my timing? Yet then I'll click play and watch a three-hour podcast. It's just some dude talking for 3 hours cuz I care about the subject matter.
2:08:08And I think this is like the the extraordinary range in people's appetite for what they're willing to give their attention to. And the idea that there isn't room in there for AI content, I think, is um is misguided at best. Last question.
2:08:24What shirt are you wearing under that jacket?
2:08:26Well, I would like to I do have a plug today. This isn't to sell anything because these aren't for sale, but there we go.
2:08:32Um, our former intern Yeah.
2:08:35at Mod Retro, Jeremy. Yeah.
2:08:37Who's now his title on his business card is special operations. Okay.
2:08:41Not sure we knew what else to give him as a title when we put him on payroll. He designed this latest Mod Retro merch.
2:08:48Yeah. So everyone watching can screenshot it. And as a fun game, try and identify each of these letters because they each come from a different piece of a game.
2:08:58Which one got us hung up this morning?
2:09:00Uh I think the T we were going you I knew the T.
2:09:04Uh I identified the M, the O, the D. I think I might have missed the E, the R. You knew the O. And I I I was off on the 64, but I was directionally correct. So, uh, no spoilers, but plenty of teasers. Go figure it out.
2:09:21Compliments to Jeremy.
2:09:22Head over to Mod Retro, get yourself a Chromatic, and start turn the t-shirt into a playable game.
2:09:30I'd download it. I' I'd flash it on my my card.
2:09:33Well, that's our show, folks. Thank you for tuning in to TBPN. We will see you tomorrow at 11:00
