0:00Esther Perel: What worries me is that we are more and more disembodied.
0:03We gather less, we party less, we drink less.
0:06Seventy-four percent of food that is cooked in an American restaurant is eaten off the premises.
0:12What worries me is that we can't really deal with the messiness of human life, the way that we are called upon to do.
0:18[Intersections] [Esther Perel, Psychotherapist] [Sal Khan, TED Vision Steward, CEO of Khan Academy] SK: Where should we begin?
0:36(Laughter) Do you want to go first?
0:40EP: I will serve you.
0:43I'll shuffle it up a little in case they rigged it.
0:47If you could redesign one system from scratch, what would it be and why?
0:54EP: Actually, if you give me that card, I would put it back in the bowl.
1:00SK: No, no, you don't want to answer that?
1:02EP: No, because I actually don't think that I have...
1:09There is no system that I would redesign from scratch, but there's only one system that I know well and that is the mental health system.
1:16So I think that there's so much that one can do to improve the services in mental health, institutionally, training-wise, service delivery, interconnection to the legal system, to the medical system.
1:33It's a huge systemic redesign.
1:36And I actually work with very small systems, couples, families, groups.
1:43My systems are microsystems.
1:46What would you say is one system that you would redesign from scratch?
1:51SK: Oh, well, probably the one -- EP: It's an enormous question.
1:56You had a good answer.
1:57You know, the one people would expect me to answer is the education system.
2:01You know, I talk a lot about that we've always known that the ideal education system is one that's very personalized.
2:07I always talk about how Alexander the Great had Aristotle as his personal tutor.
2:11And throughout most of human history, if you had resources, if you were a young prince, you did have a very good education.
2:18You fast-forward to 200, 300 years ago, we have a very utopian idea: mass public education.
2:23But we had to make compromises -- we had to batch students together, move them all together at the same pace, have some state-mandated curricula standards.
2:32If a student doesn't understand a concept and gets a C, too bad, that C is in their transcript forever and they move on having to build on that C as opposed to having a chance to keep learning it so they can get it to a B or an A.
2:44So I would, instead of making it one-size-fits-all, I’d make it personalized.
2:49Instead of making it you only get one shot to get the grade and then you build on that gap, I would make it mastery-based, which means keep learning, which you would do today if you're learning a musical instrument or a sport, becoming an Olympian.
3:03And I think the credential should be the same way.
3:06Higher education should be the same way.
3:07It should be what you know, not how long you sat in a chair.
3:10EP: But you are looking at mastery and knowledge acquisition.
3:14Do you include in your definition of education also the relational component?
3:19SK: A hundred percent.
3:20And I think this is something that's also been missing.
3:23One of the main arguments people have always given for especially why in-person schooling is so important is that's a way to build social connections, socialization, learn to deal with conflict, relationships.
3:34And I agree, that is where many of us develop that.
3:37But nowhere on your transcript does it say that you are good at collaboration, you are a good listener.
3:46And so I would also, and I think we have an interesting opportunity in the coming years to really -- EP: Do you know why?
3:54EP: Because relationship skills and relational intelligence, even in the workplace, have always been considered soft skills, and soft skills used to be seen as feminine skills, and feminine skills are often highly regarded in principle and disregarded in reality.
4:12And that is fundamentally changing now.
4:15For the first time, relationship skills and relational intelligence are actually part of the bottom line, and they're seen as hard skills.
4:22And if the workplace needs it, the education system is going to begin to value it too.
4:28SK: You know, all of the talk these days about AI and how you develop skills for AI, and we're working on some higher-education initiatives, including with TED and Khan Academy.
4:36And the skill, when we talk to employers, yes, they want people to know how to vibe code and do this with that model, but the one they really care about, and they're calling them durable skills now -- EP: Yeah, durable.
4:48SK: Communication, collaboration, creativity, listening skills, relationship skills.
4:54So 100 percent agree.
4:55EP: But it's interesting that it comes from the workplace and it will create, you know, in the same way that the workplace and the economy and the technological changes have constantly changed the curriculum, now it's going to change the relational aspects of education.
5:10SK: And one last thing, we could talk the whole time on this one question -- EP: I'm going to do this.
5:15SK: I'll say one last thing about that because sometimes people view [it as], “Oh, if you’re preparing people for work, it’s ‘vocational.’”
5:22And they view that as less than the pure academics.
5:25But this is an example of, this is a skill or a set of skills that the workplace actually wants.
5:32And they're not calling it soft skills anymore, they're calling it durable skills, and these are human skills.
5:37These make you a better human being.
5:39So this is an example of, the vocation is asking for you to become a better human.
5:46EP: What is a conversation that you think the world needs to have, [but] isn’t ready for yet?
5:52SK: There is, I think, a high likelihood that we have major disruptions, actually, in almost every dimension of our world in the next five to 10 years, the most obvious place is in the world of work where anyone from an Uber driver -- you have the Waymos coming in -- to a call center worker, to a software engineer, those jobs are either going to be transformed dramatically or there might be shrinkage.
6:15You know, some people say, oh, new jobs always get created, but hope isn't a strategy.
6:20And if we don't do anything about it, it's not just, and this is bad enough because those people have families, they're not going to find other jobs.
6:27It has follow-on effects.
6:30But one of the biggest ones is going to go into politics, it's going to go to polarization, a lot of people think, and I agree, that a lot of polarization that we're seeing today is because of 30 years of globalization.
6:42But that took 30 years.
6:43If this takes three years or even five years, we don't have the systems to do something about it.
6:48So I think we have to have that conversation.
6:50And I think there will be a reemergence of people looking for the transcendent, the spiritual, whatever you want to call it.
6:59Because as AI starts to encroach on the things that we used to think were uniquely human, we are all going to be looking -- One, we need the purpose in work.
7:08If we don't find that, hey, how am I contributing to society and how am I supporting my family?
7:12It's hard to think about anything else.
7:14But then we also want to think about what am I?
7:17Who am I in this grand thing?
7:19So those are the conversations we should be having with more urgency.
7:22What do you think are the conversations?
7:24EP: I mean, the conversation I am participating in and trying to shape as well is the conversation about relationships, because I think relationships are undergoing a massive makeover.
7:37The norms are literally shifting under our feet, and we don't necessarily have the skills because globalization is one piece, but social atrophy is something else.
7:47And so I think they are more complicated than they've ever been, certainly in the parts of the world where they are organized by negotiation.
7:56It's no longer about duty and obligation and loyalty and community.
8:01Then you know what you need to do, you know what you need to accept, you know what you can and cannot change.
8:07And you know what decisions are on your shoulders and what is decided for you.
8:10But if you live in a model of individualism that puts the individual in the center, and you are to negotiate and to make the decisions, then you have a lot more freedom, of course, but it demands a very different process, and it demands adaptability, it demands flexibility, it demands excellent communication skills.
8:30You know, if it's "father decides and nobody argues," then you don't really need to develop many skills of communication.
8:37But if it’s about being seen and understood and feeling valued, then...
8:43So I think, interestingly, that I go to a lot of places that have moonshots about everything, but there is not to be a moonshot about relationships.
8:54What is a family today?
8:56How do we define the circle of care?
8:59You know, what are the boundaries that people want to draw around their relationships?
9:03You know, you have to negotiate them.
9:06I found the right one.
9:08Am I ready for commitment?
9:10Do we want the same things?
9:12Who will wake up to feed the baby?
9:13Will we have a baby? How many babies?
9:15When do we want this baby?
9:17Will we visit your parents? Will we visit my parents?
9:19I mean, it goes on and on, from the small to the big.
9:24EP: And now it's, what is AI companionship?
9:32SK: What worries you about the future of how we connect with each other?
9:37EP: I love the fact that there is also "what excites you."
9:40What worries me is that we are living more and more in a contactless world, that you don't have to leave your house.
9:49You can make a living, you can work, you can exercise, you can feed yourself, you can shop.
9:54I mean, it's just an unbelievable thing.
9:57And that is an enormous amount of points of contact that are being deleted.
10:02So, you know, we are becoming more machine.
10:06It's not just we are interacting with machines.
10:08Maybe the machines are going to actually resemble us quite a bit.
10:11What worries me is that we are more and more disembodied.
10:14We are less and less in real person, in real life.
10:18We gather less, we party less, we drink less.
10:22Seventy-four percent of food that is cooked in an American restaurant is eaten off the premises.
10:28So that whole aspect of -- What worries me is that we look for the same kind of predictability and perfection that the apps give us in our relationships to other humans.
10:40We want them to be just as perfect and predictable.
10:43What worries me is that we can't really deal with the messiness of human life the way that we are called upon to do.
10:50What excites me is that some of our fundamental human needs are so strong that we will find ways to connect, even if it's connecting to a machine.
11:04You know, we will find ways to express our longings, our aspirations, our yearnings, our loss, our need for adoration.
11:15And what I really am interested in is the proliferation of small groups, new small groups that come together around a shared purpose, a shared vision, an activity.
11:27It's like you see that there's a fatigue of just being constantly on a screen.
11:33There's something about meeting another human or humans in person and doing this.
11:42EP: What do you think?
11:44SK: It's easy sometimes to think that you live in a special moment in history.
11:47But I do think we're living in a very special moment in history.
11:50A lot of people have been theorizing about entering some type of a singularity for the last several decades, and as far as we can tell, we are in that singularity.
12:01Whether it's artificial intelligence, biotech, manipulating the human genome, I mean, all of these things are converging at the same time.
12:09And one of the things that defines a singularity is you don't know what's on the other side.
12:14So that, by definition, is scary.
12:15We're afraid of things that we don't understand, that we can't predict.
12:19And it's happening at an accelerating -- And so I do worry. Everything you just said is 100 percent true.
12:24EP: But may I say something?
12:26This thing about we have uncertainty.
12:29We have always had uncertainty, massive uncertainty.
12:33But we had religion.
12:35Religion was the intermediary between -- And we trusted religion.
12:40Trust is the intermediary between the unknown and the known.
12:44And religion helped you deal with the unintelligible, with why people suffer.
12:50Not that they won't suffer, but how to bear the suffering, and with why bad things happen to good people.
12:55The question of morality and evil.
12:58So we had a system in place that helped us with the ethical and the existential dilemmas of our lives.
13:04I don't think we were less or more uncertain, except for a very short period in time after World War II, when my generation had a kind of boundless optimism.
13:15But for the rest, I think that what we have lost are the mechanisms that we used to use to deal with our uncertainty, not the fact that we have more uncertainty.
13:26SK: That's a good point, too, because you're right, for most of human history, the uncertainty -- EP: Did you grow up in religion?
13:32SK: I did not grow up in a religious family.
13:34But I agree with you.
13:36I actually think you're going to see a revival of religion or religion-adjacent types of structures, I think.
13:42And I actually find that that can be exciting.
13:44I think that could be a good thing.
13:46And you're right, even though I might say, singularity, what's it going to be like in two or three years, uncertainty, the reality is, for most of human history, the uncertainty was, where am I going to get my next meal?
13:58Oh, that neighboring tribe wants to come and kill us.
14:01You know, my child's probably not going to live until they're five years old.
14:04Now most of those things aren’t our concerns.
14:08Especially in most of the developed world, we're not afraid of feeding ourselves.
14:13And they are these more meta-level things of human purpose, and what's that AI going to be able to do?
14:20But it will, to some degree, a society in which, even if you have uncertainty around your crop or where you're going to go find the next food to hunt and gather or whatever, at least you have certainty about your place in it.
14:34You have certainty of like -- and religion can provide some of that framework, cultural traditions.
14:39EP: Yes, yes, rituals.
14:42And I think that's the scary thing, is that we don't know what our place is going to be in this world.
14:49And what excites me though, is it's an opportunity to build, rebuild, maybe resurrect some of these things that have been throughout our history and we realize we need [them]: religion, rituals, other forms of connection, culture, relationships.
15:06We're going to have even more abundance in terms of, serious people are talking about diseases being cured and understanding the cosmos and breakthroughs in science.
15:14Incredibly exciting.
15:16EP: But they are all human plus AI, right?
15:20I think that, at this point, what needs to shift is the human versus AI has to become the human-plus.
15:28There is something in the power of these two.
15:30There's something about a thing that augments me.
15:33You know, if I can call you, I mean, I remember the fax and the first mobile, and I was all the time excited about the rapidity, the speed with which I was going to be able to communicate with people who were far away.
15:50Producer: We've got time for one more.
15:54Read, because we want one that takes us a little bit different.
15:58What do we still have to learn as humans?
16:01(Laughter) Man, we are just ...
16:04Are we actually getting better at living or just better at optimizing?
16:08I think that is probably the best question.
16:11Because when I look at love and AI, I think that we, at this moment, are optimizing intimacy into something that is manageable, measurable and disposable.
16:25And we have borrowed metrics and markets to love, which is one of the most incredible things.
16:31Because if there is something that has never been defined in data, it's love.
16:37You know, it's a feeling, it's a condition, it's a state, it's an action, it's a verb that you conjugate.
16:44It's so many things.
16:47And are we getting better at living or better at optimizing?
16:50I think that from a relationship standpoint, there is something really powerful and questioning or questionable for me in how much we're bringing a technological approach to relational dilemmas, when relational dilemmas are often not problems that you solve, but paradoxes that you manage.
17:11SK: A hundred percent.
17:13You know, I think we're hopefully transitioning from an optimization state to a thriving state.
17:18My gut says -- EP: How do you know that?
17:22SK: Well, for decades now, and, you know, as a child of the '80s, Gordon Gekko on “Wall Street” famously said, “Greed is good.”
17:31Capitalism won the Cold War.
17:33You know, we all fixate on GDP, where the stock market is going.
17:38And, you know, I used to be a hedge fund analyst before I did Khan Academy.
17:42And you see that people are optimizing, but they're optimizing around the things that they can measure, which is oftentimes money or some other measurable thing.
17:51And it’s not that those are -- EP: From a relationship standpoint, optimizing is when people embrace romantic consumerism.
18:02EP: When they commodify each other.
18:04And they go with a shopping list looking for a life partner.
18:08That's an optimization.
18:09SK: That is an optimization.
18:10EP: It's not money-based.
18:12SK: But I think it comes from this -- EP: The mentality is capitalism, it's emotional capitalism.
18:16SK: Exactly, it's the same, "what is my return on investment?"
18:19"I'm going to put this in and I need to maximize what I get out."
18:23But I think it’s all [a] related culture.
18:25I think we're starting to get into a phase now, you know, many people in my circle who have done very well on some of those optimizations, at least, say, the monetary optimization, and they're realizing that, yes, if you're barely getting by and you're stressed about it, that those first few dollars have a lot of incremental benefit to you.
18:43But beyond a certain point, and most people are probably further than they realize -- EP: Incremental benefit is a bit of an abstract concept for something that gives people survival and ability to care for their loved ones.
18:55SK: Well that's huge.
18:56That's what I'm saying, it's a huge benefit early on, but at some point, it's smaller and smaller.
19:01But they're just used to optimizing for that.
19:04And [to] your point, they might take that same mentality and optimize for their relationships and then be frustrated that they're not thriving because their relationships are -- either they never find that perfect optimization -- EP: Or they're looking for the perfect and they resist the good because they're looking for the perfect.
19:21Can I do better? Can I do better?
19:22How much more can I get?
19:24And when in fact, it is the greed transposed to "can I do better" you know, "with my hacking," "can I do better with who I'm living with?"
19:33"Can I do better on my dating?"
19:36It is emotional capitalism 101.
19:39SK: Yeah, I never thought about it that way, but you're right.
19:42EP: I mean, what is fascinating is how the emotional realm, the psychological realm, has entered the business world, and we talk about safety and trust in the same conversation as we talk about performance indicators, and we talk about vulnerability and all of these things.
20:00That's a whole vocabulary that has entered the workplace.
20:02But the same thing has happened from the workplace and the business world into our intimate lives.
20:07Return on investment, hedging your bets, you know, what's the deal we're going to strike?
20:13What's going to happen when we break up?
20:15Because we're going to break up eventually.
20:17EP: It's not until we die, it's until love dies.
20:23But hopefully that's changing.
20:25I think we are seeing, and this goes back to I think, you're going to see spirituality and adjacent things to spirituality, people hopefully invest more in each other, and hopefully we get back to thriving.
20:35EP: You're optimistic.
20:39SK: I'm hope-timistic.
20:40(Laughs) EP: I like that.
20:43I'll join you on the train of hope.