0:00Your marketing and advertising is creating the consumer experience.
0:05Would you say that people want to be lied to?
0:09People who took the placebo knowing it was a placebo had the same effect as the leading prescription medication.
0:16If you go to Amazon right now, you will see for sale pills filled with nothing, and you will see underneath that listing five-star reviews for fast-acting relief.
0:26It's a great example of the value of marketing.
0:29Not just paying to get a product, but you're also paying to feel something.
0:32The biggest revelation is that it's not just about the product itself.
0:36Everybody has a good product out there.
0:37But what oftentimes differentiates is not just the quality of the product, it's also expectations driven by beliefs.
0:44You notice you can't spell a belief without a lie?
0:51Nir, welcome to Ahrefs Podcast.
0:54So there's a common narrative that marketing is just manipulation and lies.
0:59Because what marketers do is they try to make their product seem better.
1:05But in your most recent book, Beyond Belief, you're arguing that little lies of marketing are actually creating the reality for customers.
1:15So tell me more about that, because I think it's a very interesting idea.
1:18Yeah, I think marketing and advertising specifically kind of gets a bad name as something that is pushy and is attention grabbing and is just money grubbing.
1:30And I think what people who take that rather unsophisticated view of marketing and advertising don't understand is that the role of advertising is not just to increase awareness.
1:42That's kind of the traditional view.
1:44You know, here I'm selling whatever product.
1:47Everybody should know about it and go buy it.
1:49But there's something that occurs in good marketing and advertising that the average person doesn't realize, which is that good advertising doesn't just tell the user about the product — it incepts how the user should enjoy and experience that product.
2:11And this is what I call the experience loop.
2:13So it goes: believe, anticipate, feel, confirm.
2:17It turns out that when we have certain beliefs about a product that are incepted through the marketing and advertising of the product, it changes actually how we experience the good.
2:30And I'll give you a very basic example on one axis, and then I'll give you a more sophisticated example in the real world.
2:37So, the research side: there was a study done by a former colleague of mine at Stanford by the name of Baba Shiv, and he put people into fMRI machines.
2:45fMRI machines track blood flow in the brain, so we can see which areas of the brain become more active during certain stimuli.
2:52Now, in the fMRI machine, as they were scanning people's brains, they asked them to try two kinds of wine.
2:59The first wine, they said, "This is a very cheap bottle of wine.
3:02Tell us what you think of it." And people said, "Ah, it's all right.
3:06It's a little harsh on the finish.
3:07I'm not a big fan of this wine."
3:09Okay, no problem. They, you know, took a sip of water. "Now we're gonna give you another wine.
3:14Now, this is a very expensive bottle of wine.
3:17What do you think of this bottle of wine?" They tasted it. "Oh, wow, this is very complex.
3:22I can taste the notes of berry and oak and dirt." I don't know what wine snobs say.
3:28And it turns out that people said they liked the more expensive wine much more.
3:32And of course, the trick — there's always a trick — the trick was it was the same exact wine.
3:37Same bottle of wine, completely different experiences.
3:39Now, it wasn't just that people said the more expensive wine tasted better.
3:44They could see, because they were tracking blood flow in the brain, that the areas associated with pleasure and reward became more active when people thought they were getting the more expensive wine, even though it was the same exact wine.
3:56So they weren't lying when they said they liked it more.
3:59They actually felt it was better.
4:02Well, one of our core beliefs about the things that we consume is that the more expensive something is, the better it should be, right?
4:12Very basic, fundamental assertion that higher quality comes at a higher price.
4:16So that belief made the wine actually taste better.
4:22And we see this again and again and again.
4:24We know that there is an advertising placebo effect.
4:28For example, we know that when we tell golfers that a particular putter was used by a famous celebrity golfer, they actually putt better.
4:39Well, they actually do better in the sport.
4:41But kind of for no reason — because it just belonged to a great person, it doesn't mean it's better for you.
4:46Yeah, it's nothing… And it's a lie.
4:48The club wasn't used by… But with the belief that that club was used by a famous golfer, they believe that there's some kind of magic attribute.
4:55Now, how does this apply in the real world?
4:56I'll give you an example of a company called Liquid Death.
5:03All the audience of my podcast knows it for sure.
5:05Oh, you've talked about it before on the show?
5:07Just a common case for where brand creates the product.
5:12It's water — and they don't claim to be anything else.
5:14And what they did that was very interesting is that they really used, I think, you know, this belief, uh, experience loop — believe, anticipate, feel, confirm.
5:23They incepted that this water is special, that it's different, that it's new.
5:29You know, that's why you see "new" on every product that can make that claim.
5:33Because again, just like more expensive is associated with better, new is associated with better.
5:39And so they took this very different approach, right?
5:41It's not the classic water brand of serenity and purity and peace.
5:46That's how most waters is marketed.
5:49They've got this heavy metal skull bleeding.
5:52Like, it's a very weird brand for water.
5:54And at first nobody believed they would sell any cases of water, because, you know, who's gonna buy death on the shelves of a local convenience store?
6:02And yet, even though it's just water, they don't claim it's anything special.
6:06It's just — actually it's tap water.
6:08It's from, I think it's Austria, but the only reason they bottle it in Austria is because it's the only place they could find that would bottle water in a can versus in plastic.
6:15So that's why they get it from there.
6:17So there's nothing special about the water.
6:19And yet people will tell you the water tastes better.
6:22They don't claim it's any better.
6:24But because of the branding, because of the advertising, there's more to the water.
6:29And you'll see people who actually tattoo the logo on their arm.
6:31They have such brand loyalty.
6:33And these people are not stupid.
6:36They're not gullible.
6:37They actually experience the product differently because of the inception of what the product is supposed to be like.
6:44It's supposed to be better, and therefore, it really is.
6:48And so my original interpretation when I heard these studies and stories was, "Oh, people are gullible. We can trick people."
6:55No, no, that's not what I'm saying at all.
6:57What I'm saying is that the marketer's job is undervalued, because this isn't something that happens after the fact.
7:05Your marketing and advertising is creating the consumer experience.
7:11So it's not just something that happens, you know, some pastiche after the product has been made.
7:15It is the product in many cases.
7:17Pay your marketers more.
7:20Would you say that people actually want to be lied to?
7:25Not on a massive scale, but a little.
7:27Because, like you say, marketing creates those experiences, and you have this concept called anticipated experiences.
7:36So marketing creates anticipated experiences, which essentially people pay for.
7:42So you're not just paying to get a product, but you're also paying to feel something.
7:46And to feel something is what your messaging is creating.
7:49Well, I wouldn't call it a lie.
7:51Uh, a lie is when it's a patent untruth.
7:53We need this for clickbait.
7:56But you notice — you know, it's interesting you say the word lie, because if you look at the word belief — do you notice you can't spell a belief without a lie?
8:03Oh, I didn't think of that.
8:04It's right in the middle of the word.
8:06You can't spell belief without a lie.
8:08Now, what is a belief, and why are beliefs different from facts?
8:11Facts are objective truths.
8:13They are things that are true whether or not you believe in them.
8:16The world is more like a sphere than it is flat.
8:19Sorry, flat Earthers — the world doesn't care what you believe.
8:22You can't change facts.
8:24Beliefs are something different.
8:25Beliefs are convictions that are open to revision based on evidence.
8:31So if the evidence is, I enjoy this more, right?
8:34This was better for me.
8:36So that's what the expectation loop is all about.
8:39If I believe something — if I believe a more expensive wine should be better — I anticipate it to be better.
8:45I feel it is better, because the brain doesn't experience reality as it is.
8:49It experiences reality as it believes it to be.
8:52And then I confirm that feeling.
8:54So this is why, you know, people who enjoy wine, they talk about it, and they rate it, and they keep a score, and they discuss — because you're confirming to yourself and others that the experience was what you expected or not.
9:05And so in all sorts of experiences — you know, think about luxury items.
9:10Luxury items are a story.
9:12Is a car that costs 10 times more than another car — is it 10 times better?
9:20But there's that belief that it should be better, and so you enjoy it much more.
9:24You know, this is why I advise people who are getting into exercise to invest in exercise clothing.
9:30Buy a little bit better shoes.
9:32You know, get exercise equipment that's a little bit better than, you know, the bottom basement stuff.
9:38Not that it is going to functionally change very much.
9:43You know, is a brand name shoe better than a non-brand name shoe?
9:46It's probably made in the same factory.
9:48But your perception of it — it should be better, it should help me jump higher, run faster — actually will have some kind of placebo effect that may make you experience those things differently.
9:58So essentially, marketing creates a placebo out of the product promise, and then you are prone to believe what you heard and believe that this has worked for you.
10:11I also loved your framing that — no, not your framing, but actually also a fact — essentially, that everyone experiences their own reality.
10:22That their brain, with their preconceived notions and beliefs, creates their own reality.
10:27And people like marketers can change that reality with stories, with those anticipated experiences.
10:35And I also loved your example with Toyota and General Motors.
10:41Can you tell that story, please?
10:42So at the NUMMI plant in California, they had two cars roll off the lot.
10:49Now, these two cars were identical in every single way, except — the logo.
10:56One said Geo Prizm, which was manufactured technically by GM, General Motors.
11:01The other was a Toyota, okay?
11:04The car was identical.
11:06Same engine, same seating, same everything.
11:09The only difference was the moniker, the logo.
11:12And of course, that logo — why do we have such prominent logos?
11:14Why do you see a logo again and again and again?
11:17A logo reinforces a brand promise.
11:20And so, you know, when someone sees a Toyota logo, that represents something different from the Geo Prizm logo — which you don't see anymore, and there's good reason for that.
11:30Now, what was so fascinating about this case is that even though the cars were functionally identical — they came off the same exact production line — people rated one of those cars, the Toyota, very highly.
11:42I think it was one of the top three cars in America as rated by customer satisfaction.
11:48The Geo Prizm — the exact same car, different logo — was way down at the bottom.
11:53Well, because when both consumers experienced subjective facts… sorry, objective facts, like a little rattle in the car or something that they didn't expect, one was on guard for it.
12:06They say, "Oh, well, I got this cheap Geo Prizm made by General Motors, ugh — probably made poorly."
12:12And so again, back to that expectation loop.
12:14They had a belief that their car is a cheap car, is not very well made by GM.
12:20No, that was a belief.
12:21It was completely subjective.
12:23They anticipated a certain thing to happen.
12:27They felt it in their minds.
12:30They saw it differently, even though that was shaped by their beliefs.
12:33And then they confirmed it — so they would take it to the mechanic more.
12:36They would look for more repairs because of these beliefs.
12:39Versus if I'm driving a Toyota, and Toyota is known for reliability, for well-made cars — I didn't even notice it.
12:45I didn't even hear the rattling, because I didn't believe it would be there.
12:49So one of the biggest misconceptions about the brain is that the brain helps us perceive reality as it is.
12:57That is patently not true.
12:59We do not see reality clearly.
13:02Uh, there's a saying, you know, "I'll believe it when I see it."
13:05It's actually the opposite.
13:06It's also true that you see what you believe.
13:10So you don't see reality clearly.
13:11You see reality filtered by your belief.
13:14So you can taste the same thing.
13:16You can hear the same thing.
13:18You can experience the same thing.
13:19But because of your beliefs, you will experience them completely differently.
13:23You used to think that branding is a lie.
13:27But judging by those stories, it's not anymore.
13:30Uh, and you also mentioned that brand experience is the value.
13:35But let's talk about how do you create those beliefs in people?
13:39So I'm a marketer at some organization, and they need to instill beliefs in people about my product.
13:47The… Is there a process for it?
13:49So that's where this experience loop comes in handy.
13:52I think the biggest revelation is that it's not just about the product itself.
13:57Of course, you should make your product as good as you could possibly make it, and of course, increase the product quality.
14:02Of course, that goes without saying.
14:04But I think we over-index just on the product.
14:08And we kind of discount that the marketing and the branding and the advertising is the product in many ways.
14:17That it is important to focus on customer perception.
14:20It is important to focus on what they expect to happen — and of course, to deliver that.
14:25You can't build up expectations and then not deliver.
14:27That creates all kinds of problems as well.
14:29But what I'm saying is it's not good enough just to have a good product.
14:32Everybody has a good product out there.
14:34But what oftentimes differentiates is not just the quality of the product, it's also the inception of expectations driven by beliefs.
14:44I also like that you gave a few very specific tools in your book.
14:47Again, your book is not about marketing, but it picked up so many interesting marketing ideas that it's quite amusing.
14:54So one of the tools you suggested is to use evocative language.
14:59Can you talk about that, please?
15:01This is… Uh, what was the chapter there?
15:03So, "one of the most powerful tools in this process is use of evocative language to transform ordinary offerings into anticipated experiences. Netflix doesn't offer video access subscriptions. It invites you to see what's next." There was something about Adidas, I think, but it got cut out, unfortunately.
15:22Well, Airbnb as well does this.
15:24Having a brand that has a promise that's bigger than the functional experience — I think that's the idea.
15:33Is, you know, understand what kind of business you're actually in.
15:37And I think that starts with realizing that no matter what you sell, okay, no matter what you think you make, you're actually only in one business.
15:46All of us, we are in the business of changing how people feel.
15:55Whether you're making software, whether you're making coffee, whether you're making hamburgers— Writing books.
16:00You are transporting people from their current emotional state to some other kind of state.
16:08That's what's important to realize.
16:09And that's what you're paying for — that's what your customer's paying for.
16:12I loved how you explained planting beliefs, again, in the marketing context.
16:20"Sometimes marketers take an even more direct approach to the experience loop.
16:25Consider the famous Lay's potato chips slogan: bet you can't eat just one."
16:30Can you tell what it is doing, this slogan, bet you can't eat just one?
16:34Because it's very interesting.
16:34Right — so in the States, I remember growing up that that was the Lay's potato chips slogan: "Bet you can't just eat one." Now, by having that phrase, that evocative language — versus "our potato chips are really tasty, they're super delicious" — well, bet you can't eat just one: what type of sensation does that evoke in the consumer?
16:56It's implicit that it's a good product, because you can't just eat one.
16:59It's also a challenge.
17:01And in a way, by saying, "Wait, can I eat just one?" you're incepting this concept of: wait a minute, is this difficult?
17:10Can I control myself?
17:13And so you're asking the customer to focus on that sensation, and therefore accentuate it.
17:20This is part of the reason why smoking is hard to quit.
17:24You know, we know that nicotine is actually a lot less addictive than we previously thought.
17:29It's still addictive, clearly, but the reason it's addictive is not as clear-cut as we thought.
17:35We thought that nicotine is something that gets processed in your bloodstream, and the less of it you have, the more you want it, because you're addicted.
17:44Your brain has to have it.
17:46Turns out that's not exactly true.
17:47In fact, if you ask smokers why do they smoke, they'll tell you the number one response is it's relaxing.
17:55That doesn't actually make much sense, because nicotine is a stimulant.
17:59So how can a stimulant relax you?
18:02Well, it turns out the reason it's relaxing is because when smokers try and fight the urge to smoke, they are accentuating that urge.
18:11They're focusing on it.
18:12They're hyper-fixating on this.
18:15And so that focusing of attention reinforces the belief that I want it, I need it, I have to have it, and I'm denying myself.
18:23And so when that ratchets up — I want it, I want it, I want it, I can't have it, no, resist, resist, resist, I get to smoke — when I finally take that first puff, I'm actually releasing the tension of wanting.
18:38I mean, how ironic is that, right?
18:40It's not necessarily the nicotine itself, it's the release of holding myself back.
18:45That's why people say it's relaxing.
18:48Of course, it's the deep inhale — there's lots of other physiological reasons, but that's one of the main reasons.
18:53So in a way, that's kind of what these Lay's potato chips were doing.
18:56I'll bet you can't just eat one.
18:58Yeah, it's a great example of the value of marketing.
19:02Uh, like you say, brand experience is the value.
19:06So with those stories, you create value in people's heads, but what's more interesting is that they believe in them, and they actually experience them.
19:15So back to your very first example of wine — I think there are two things in place here.
19:22So when people are told they're drinking good wine, they have the sensations of drinking good wine, and I would love you to expand why — because you also mentioned a lot of studies of how brain works in this regard.
19:35And the second is, yeah, higher price creates better product.
19:41So like you said again, if you see higher price on the product, it automatically primes your brain that you're going to experience something better.
19:49But yeah, I believe there was some study along how brain creates those anticipations, and you had quite a few examples of that.
19:57I love the one with the cream — about pain.
20:00So this is a great example of how perception can change how we experience things.
20:06Our beliefs can change how we experience things, based on what we expect.
20:09And so this classic placebo response was tested in studies where they had this standard pain test, where it, like, applies a bit of heat, and they gave people a cream they said was an analgesic cream.
20:21It was a pain-relieving cream.
20:22Of course, no such thing.
20:24It was just cream they bought in the lobby of the building, you know, some kind of lotion.
20:30Same cream — but when they tell you, oh, it has an analgesic property, it stops pain in some way, it actually does more so.
20:37In fact — what's amazing, you know, you said that you have to believe in the lie, so to speak.
20:42That you have to believe that you're getting a real analgesic, not a placebo.
20:47Turns out that's no longer true.
20:49We used to believe that you had to have a double-blind control study — that if I'm gonna give you a placebo, you have to believe it's the real thing, or else it won't work.
21:01Ted Kaptchuk at Harvard had a study where he called in people who suffer from irritable bowel syndrome.
21:08Now, there are many illnesses that are highly responsive to the placebo effect.
21:14Now, just to clarify: placebos don't fix sickness.
21:18They fix illness, and those are not the same thing.
21:21Sickness is in the body.
21:23Placebos don't work on cancer.
21:25They don't heal a broken bone.
21:26They work on illness.
21:27Illness is in the mind.
21:29So pain, insomnia, ADHD, anxiety, irritable bowel syndrome — highly susceptible to the placebo effect.
21:38So what does Dr. Kaptchuk do?
21:41He calls in a group of test subjects who are all suffering from irritable bowel syndrome, and he tells them, "This medication," he holds up a pill jar, "is a placebo."
21:53It says placebo on the pill jar.
21:56And he says, "It is an inert substance that has been shown to be helpful with the symptoms of IBS in some people." That's all he says.
22:05He says, "It's an inert substance.
22:06It's a placebo. It says right there on the label." And wouldn't you know it — people who took the placebo knowing it was a placebo had the same effect, the same pain relief, as the leading prescription medication, even when they knew it was a placebo.
22:23In fact, some people after the study called up Dr. Kaptchuk and said, "Dr.
22:27Kaptchuk, can I get some more of those placebo pills?
22:29They were fantastic." And you laugh — but look, if you go to Amazon right now and you search for placebo pills, you will see for sale pills filled with nothing, just an inert substance that says placebo on it, and you will see underneath that listing five-star reviews for fast-acting relief.
22:47Now, are people crazy?
22:50The placebo effect is incredibly powerful, and I think we underutilize it.
22:55Did you know that 80% of our healthcare spending — 80% — is on illness, not sickness?
23:02I know this because I read your book.
23:04So that's amazing, right?
23:06If 80% of the money we spend is on the perception of our symptoms — that are caused by sickness, or sometimes not, sometimes they're purely in the mind — we should be using placebos a lot more, right?
23:18There's no side effects to placebos.
23:19There's the nocebo effect — that's a whole nother topic we should talk about.
23:22But it turns out we can actually decrease pain and suffering quite substantially when we invoke the placebo effect.
23:28I want to finish the conversation about marketing, because that story was to prove that people do want to believe in things, and this can be oftentimes for their own good, basically.
23:41And to finish the conversation about marketing, I really loved how you said that marketing creates a mental simulation in people's minds, which is often quite favorable and useful for them.
23:55But the other topic that I've picked up from your book, and that I want to switch to, is things like career, relationships at work, and stuff like this.
24:05And the first thing I want to discuss in that regard is venting.
24:10Because at work, whenever something frustrates us, you go vent to your friends, you go vent to your wife, to your therapist, whatever.
24:19But what I learned from this book — that venting isn't something that is good for you.
24:25In fact, we know that venting about people does nothing but reinforce the beliefs you already have about them.
24:32Because just as we don't see reality clearly, we don't see people as they are.
24:37We see people as we believe them to be — particularly people we know best.
24:41Uh, you know, how do we treat a stranger versus how do we treat the love of our life, right?
24:47Our kids, our spouse?
24:51Unfortunately, we don't treat them so good sometimes, because we know them so well.
24:54And so we see them… They have all their faults that we're aware of, that strangers we give the benefit of the doubt.
25:01So it turns out that venting about people — whether it's your coworkers, your boss, your kids, your spouse, your parents — turns out to actually have some negative consequences.
25:09A much better way to deal with interpersonal conflict — and this is something, you know, I get quite intimate in the book about things that I struggle with — is to examine your beliefs.
25:20Because it turns out that seeing things clearly is impossible.
25:27None of us can see reality as it is.
25:30It's impossible, because your brain cannot handle reality.
25:33There is just too much information.
25:35You know, every second your brain is processing 11 million bits of information.
25:3911 million bits is the equivalent of reading War and Peace every second — twice.
25:45It's a tremendous amount of information.
25:47Imagine 2,000 pages of text every single second.
25:51Tremendous amount of information.
25:53What is that information?
25:54It's the light entering your eyes.
25:55It's the sound of my voice in your ears.
25:57It's the ambient temperature of the room.
25:58If you pause and think about these things, you can bring attention to them, but conscious awareness tunes those things out, even though your brain is processing them, right?
26:07Right now you can say, "Is the room hot or cold? Okay, now I sense, oh, it's a little bit warm."
26:11But it's always in the background unless you bring conscious awareness to it.
26:15Now, that conscious awareness can only process about 50 bits.
26:2050 bits is one sentence of information per second.
26:24So one sentence versus 2,000 pages of text, right?
26:28War and Peace twice.
26:29So we don't see reality as it is.
26:32We see reality through this tiny pinhole of attention that we think is the real world.
26:38So if we can't even see our own reality as it is, how can we possibly see through somebody else's eyes?
26:45And so when we take a step back and ask ourselves: where do our problems come from?
26:50Like really, what's the source of our problems?
26:53Whether it's personal problems, interpersonal problems, even geopolitical problems — I think they all come down to this unfortunate situation we find ourselves in, where too many people think that their faith is a fact.
27:08Faith and facts are two different things, and they try and impose that faith as a fact.
27:13And the things we oftentimes think are facts are not facts.
27:17They're just beliefs.
27:18They're subjective perceptions.
27:20And so I think the world would be a much better place interpersonally if we understood, and had the intellectual humility to recognize, that none of us sees reality as it is.
27:33We see reality through our beliefs.
27:36But the good news is we can change our beliefs — that we don't have to keep lugging around this tremendous weight of these beliefs we didn't choose.
27:45Let me give you a specific example to expand on this.
27:48My boss doesn't understand me.
27:50My boss doesn't listen to me.
27:52This is the kind of limiting belief you might want to change.
27:55So how should people deal with that kind of limiting belief?
27:58So I would say, let me back up.
28:00So you can use the techniques in the book — and I try and be very, very practical with these techniques.
28:05The idea is to free yourself from suffering.
28:12Pain will always be there.
28:14And I'm not the first one to say it.
28:15This is stoic, this is Buddhist, this has been around for a very, very long time.
28:18Pain and suffering are two different things.
28:20Pain is the information.
28:22Pain is the 11 million bits, okay?
28:25You're not gonna get rid of that.
28:26Suffering is what you let into those 50 bits.
28:30It's the interpretation of the signal.
28:33So let me demonstrate.
28:35We can talk about how you would deal with a boss, but let me demonstrate in a very close relationship that was changed based on my beliefs: my relationship with my mom.
28:44So for decades, I believed that my mom is a very judgmental person.
28:50She's very judgmental.
28:50She's very hard to please.
28:52And a few years ago, it was her birthday, and I wanted to do something nice for her.
28:57So I wanted to get her some flowers.
29:02And so I called up the best florist I could find.
29:06She was in Central Florida.
29:07I'm in Singapore at the time — so, other side of the planet — but I stayed up till 1:00 in the morning.
29:12I found the best florist.
29:13I paid for the nicest flowers I could afford, and I was sure she was gonna love them.
29:17She was gonna call me up the next day and tell me what a great son I was.
29:21But that's not what happened.
29:22What happened was, I call her up the next day and I say, "Hey, Mom, did you get those flowers I sent you?"
29:28And she says, "Yes, I got the flowers.
29:31But just so you know, the flowers weren't so nice, and in fact, don't order from that florist again." To which I said, "Well, that's the last time I buy you flowers," or something like that.
29:41And I'm embarrassed I said it, but that's what came out.
29:44Now, during this call, my wife was sitting right next to me, and she heard this entire conversation — and we work together.
29:50She's Julie Li, there at the bottom of the book, and she knows all about my research.
29:54And she turns to me and she says, "Nir, would you like to do a turnaround on that?"
30:00To which I said, "No, I do not wanna do your mumbo jumbo, hocus pocus, touchy-feely. I need to vent." Right?
30:07Venting is what we're told to do.
30:09We're supposed to get things off our chest.
30:10We're supposed to tell people how we feel.
30:11We're not supposed to, you know, let them trample all over us.
30:13We have to speak our truth.
30:15But I knew enough about the research literature to show that that's not what we're supposed to do.
30:18That, as I mentioned, when we vent about people, we're just reinforcing the beliefs that we already believe about them.
30:25There she goes again.
30:26This is so like her.
30:27She always does this, right?
30:28We're not seeing people clearly.
30:30We're reinforcing their beliefs.
30:31And the more you reinforce them — just like we talked about with the product — the more you expect something to be a certain way, the more you're gonna see it that way.
30:38And that's exactly what we do with our relationships, whether it's with our kids, our boss, our moms.
30:43We do this based on what we expect.
30:47I sat down, and I used a technique called inquiry-based stress reduction — and you can follow along during this podcast and do it right now.
30:55Okay, here's how it works.
30:56You ask yourself: where are you experiencing suffering?
31:03It could be any form of suffering.
31:05It could be physical.
31:06It could be psychological.
31:07It can be great suffering.
31:09It can be minor suffering.
31:11Where is some form of suffering?
31:13It could be maybe you're suffering because you are not doing that New Year's resolution you promised yourself.
31:19You're not exercising like you said you would.
31:21You're doom scrolling.
31:21You don't like that about yourself.
31:23Maybe it's something that annoys you about somebody else.
31:26My mom is judgmental.
31:29Where are you suffering, okay?
31:32Where is it in your life?
31:32And if you don't have any suffering, you're probably dead.
31:34All of us have suffering.
31:37So think about that.
31:38Where is the suffering in your life?
31:39Now ask yourself why.
31:43Why is that the source of my suffering?
31:45So I'll give you an example.
31:47The source of my suffering is my mom — my relationship with my mom.
31:51Why am I suffering from that relationship?
31:53Because my mom is judgmental and hard to please, okay?
31:56Okay, now I have my why.
31:58Now we use a technique called inquiry-based stress reduction, which is also called The Work, by Byron Katie — and so she deserves credit.
32:05She developed these four questions, which are actually, if you look at it, a technique that's very similar to something that Aristotle did over 2,500 years ago.
32:12So this is a very ancient technique that's been actually validated in several studies now.
32:16And so inquiry-based stress reduction asks us four questions.
32:20The first question is: you take out your why — why are you suffering — and ask yourself simply, is that true?
32:29So I'll be the guinea pig here.
32:31My mother is too judgmental and hard to please.
32:33That is the source of my suffering.
32:37Of course it's true.
32:38If somebody sends you flowers from halfway across the world, the appropriate response is?
32:45This is why we're friends.
32:48You don't complain about the gift, okay?
32:50So clearly it's true: my mom was being very judgmental and hard to please.
32:53Yeah, and that made me suffer.
32:55Okay, let's go to question two: is it absolutely true?
32:59Sounds like the first question, but there's something a little different.
33:02Is it absolutely true?
33:03Do I know with 100% certainty?
33:06Absolutely means always, no exceptions.
33:10There cannot be any other reason why I'm suffering, other than my mother was being too judgmental and hard to please.
33:18Could I be 100% sure?
33:22There might be a 1% chance that there's another reason.
33:24I don't know what the reason is, but there might be another reason.
33:29Question number three: who am I when I hold onto this belief?
33:34And you can substitute this right now — so, whatever you wrote down for your why.
33:37Do you wanna do this, by the way?
33:38We should have done this in real time.
33:40Do you have something you're suffering with?
33:41I was hoping that my team would be listening.
33:44Uh, and whoever thinks that I'm an asshole would do this.
33:48But what are you struggling with?
33:49What are you suffering with in your life?
33:51There's nothing too big or too small.
33:53Let's do the boss thing.
33:54I think, uh— You have a boss?
33:57And I think, uh, he doesn't listen to me as much as I would love him to listen to me.
34:01Hopefully he won't listen to this podcast.
34:04But this is a real challenge, huh?
34:05So you're suffering because your boss… What was it?
34:08Uh, doesn't always listen to me.
34:10Your boss doesn't listen to you.
34:14You wouldn't have said it if it didn't feel true.
34:16Is it absolutely true?
34:20Because he might know things that I don't know.
34:22So it's not that he doesn't listen to me.
34:24It's just he doesn't necessarily agree with me, because of his things.
34:29So there could be another reason.
34:30We don't have to know that reason just yet, but there could be another reason — that that suffering is not happening just because of my boss.
34:36There could be other potential reasons, or maybe I misinterpreted what he does, as you mentioned.
34:40Now, here's a third question.
34:41Let's do this together.
34:42I want you to close your eyes for a second — and if you're listening to the podcast, please do this as well.
34:46Close your eyes, and I want you to just meditate on that why.
34:52Why are you suffering?
34:53In my case, my mother is too judgmental and hard to please.
34:56My boss doesn't listen to me.
34:59Hold that in your mind, think about it for a minute, see it.
35:02And now I want you to bring awareness to your body.
35:05When you hold onto that belief — my mother is too judgmental and hard to please, there's not enough time, I'm not good enough for this assignment, I'm not good at public speaking, whatever your why might be — how does your body feel right now?
35:18Okay, bring awareness to it.
35:22When you hold onto that belief: my boss doesn't listen to me.
35:32What other emotions?
35:38Anything else pop up?
35:41Uh, not that I can think of on the spot.
35:45Yeah, for me, with "my mother is too judgmental and hard to please," I felt anxious.
35:51I felt like this 13-year-old version of myself I didn't really like, right?
35:55So holding onto that… What does that question teach us?
35:58That holding onto this belief, this subjective assessment, makes us suffer, right?
36:04It doesn't feel good.
36:05When I feel tense, when I feel anxious, it doesn't feel good.
36:08Okay, now we're gonna do another exercise.
36:10Close your eyes again, take a deep breath, and now picture that same why in your mind, that same belief: my boss doesn't listen to me.
36:19My mother is too judgmental and hard to please.
36:21I'm not good at this task.
36:22I'm not ready for leadership.
36:24Whatever that why that you came up with that was causing your suffering, picture it in your mind.
36:29And now I want you to imagine — just pretend — that that belief begins to dissolve.
36:37Okay, we're just pretending.
36:39Imagine that that belief doesn't exist.
36:46It never was and never is.
36:48Poof — it disappears.
36:51Take a deep breath, and now open your eyes.
36:54And now tell me how you feel.
36:57What did you experience in your body?
37:03Uh, sense of wanting to, to do something.
37:10Little bit of motivation.
37:12So when I let that belief go — that my mother is too judgmental and hard to please — I felt immediately lighter.
37:19I felt more like myself, like the person I wanna become, as opposed to this version I don't really like.
37:26So what did we learn?
37:27In just four questions, we determined that the thing we were sure was a fact — my boss doesn't listen to me, my mother's hard to please, whatever that why that's causing us suffering — turns out wasn't a fact.
37:41If it's not 100% true, it's not a fact.
37:44Then we learned that holding onto it makes us feel bad — that is the source of our suffering — and that letting it go makes us feel better.
37:51So now we're ready for the turnaround.
37:53This is the most important part.
37:54Now we ask ourselves the most important question: could the opposite be true?
38:00Could the opposite be true?
38:03What's the opposite of my mother is too judgmental and hard to please?
38:07The opposite is my mother is not too judgmental and hard to please.
38:11How could that be true?
38:13Well, she did thank me for the flowers, right?
38:20Maybe she was trying to be helpful, because she didn't want me to get scammed by this florist.
38:27The opposite could be true.
38:29With my boss doesn't listen to me — how could the opposite be true?
38:34That I don't listen to him.
38:36That's a different kind of turnaround.
38:38So I would think to start with: my boss does listen to me.
38:41Is there an example where your boss does listen to you?
38:43Has he ever listened?
38:46But you don't focus on the good things.
38:48You focus on the bad things.
38:51Why do you focus on the bad things, not the good things?
38:55Because they trigger something in you.
38:57Yeah — because it's dangerous.
38:58From an evolutionary basis, good things are nice, but bad things will kill you.
39:03If you think about our species 200,000 years ago — you know, we're out picking berries.
39:07Berries are nice, but if you see a tiger behind the bush, that's dangerous.
39:12So we're more attuned to the danger than the nice little good things.
39:16So that happens at work.
39:17We see the things that we don't like about others or ourselves.
39:21Oh, I just gave a speech in front of my company, my staff or whatever, and I messed up on this and that.
39:26We don't see that we were great the rest of the time.
39:28It's called a negativity bias.
39:30So now we're just trying to collect more evidence, right?
39:33A belief is a conviction that is open to revision based on evidence — so let's collect some evidence.
39:38Oh, turns out there were times where my boss did listen to me quite well.
39:42There were times when my mom wasn't judgmental and hard to please.
39:44And maybe in this instance, maybe she wasn't being judgmental and hard to please.
39:47Maybe she was trying to be helpful in her own way.
39:51Let's do another turnaround.
39:53Another turnaround could be: the opposite of my mother's too judgmental and hard to please could be I am judgmental and hard to please.
40:02How could that be true?
40:04Well, wasn't I the one who had stayed up till 1:00 in the morning rehearsing in my mind exactly the praise that I deserved, because I'd done this nice thing for my mom?
40:15And when I didn't hear that praise, I lost it.
40:18Kinda like what you were saying with your boss.
40:20What were you saying earlier?
40:21Whenever you suggest something that you think is a great idea, and then it is rejected — and you already imagined how, like, you would be complimented for something cool — yeah, you feel bad about it.
40:34So it's not that my boss isn't listening to me.
40:35Maybe I'm not listening to my boss.
40:37Maybe my boss is actually trying to give me feedback, even in his non-response or her non-response.
40:42Maybe that's trying to tell me to listen to what they want.
40:45After all, they're paying my bills.
40:47They're paying my paycheck.
40:48If that's what my boss wants, maybe I should be more attentive, as opposed to stubborn in my own conviction.
40:55By the way, we're not looking for truth here.
40:58We're just looking for a portfolio of perspectives.
41:01The goal is not to find the truth.
41:04The goal is to stop our suffering.
41:06So let's look at another turnaround.
41:08Another turnaround to my struggle, my suffering — my mother is too judgmental and hard to please — could be I am too judgmental and hard to please towards myself.
41:20How could that be true?
41:22Well, when I did this nice thing for my mom, and it didn't work out the way I'd wanted it to, and I spent all this time and money and effort on it, and it didn't work out — I felt like I messed up.
41:34Like I did something wrong.
41:36Like there was something wrong with me.
41:38So who was I actually judging?
41:41And this is a very important concept in psychology that we call misattribution of emotion.
41:46Misattribution of emotion is when we feel crappy on the inside, and so we look for a reason for it on the outside.
41:54It's my boss, it's my mom, it's geopolitics, it's this war happening that's got nothing to do with me.
41:59It's all this stuff outside of me.
42:00That's why I'm suffering.
42:02And that's what I was doing to my mom, right?
42:05Now I have four… Now I have four beliefs.
42:08I had one, now I have four.
42:17We spend so much time deliberating on what's true, when really there is no truth here.
42:23It's all subjective.
42:24It's all how I felt.
42:25But the first belief — my mother is too judgmental and hard to please, my boss doesn't listen to me — what does that do to my motivation to work on that relationship?
42:34If I believe that person is that way, I don't wanna work— I don't wanna be in a relationship with someone who's judgmental or who doesn't listen to me.
42:41So it decreases my motivation and it increases my suffering.
42:45That's the definition of a limiting belief.
42:47A limiting belief is a belief that decreases your motivation and increases your suffering.
42:50Now I can adopt a different belief.
42:52I have these other perspectives that I can use to come up with a liberating belief that increases my motivation and decreases my suffering.
43:01So that's the whole goal here: to prompt yourself with a portfolio of perspectives that now you can pick and choose which one serves you best.
43:09And you don't have to keep it forever.
43:11If it doesn't serve you better, if it doesn't decrease your suffering, if it doesn't increase your motivation, you can adopt a different belief.
43:16You can swap them out.
43:17So for example, with your example — is there a turnaround there to the self, of my boss doesn't listen to me?
43:25There could be a turnaround that's also true, of I don't listen to me.
43:30There could be a situation where really what's happening, perhaps, is that you're not happy with your situation, and maybe you're projecting that onto your boss.
43:39So it's not really about your boss.
43:40It could be something about what's happening with you.
43:44Does that resonate at all, or not so much?
43:47It's more of, uh, probably being stubborn — where you kind of try to want to make things your way, uh, without taking the time to investigate more if things should be your way.
44:01So maybe it's more in that kind of realm.
44:06Again, we… But there's no fact here.
44:08We're just exploring different perspectives.
44:11It could be that you're holding on more — and this is something that I used to do all the time, and I still struggle with — I was holding on more to the idea of being right, that I didn't like being offended that I might be wrong, that someone might be thinking that I'm incorrect, than the actual idea itself.
44:29So maybe it's that: it's that I'm not listening to me, that I'm not listening to my own need to be heard, right?
44:37But that's got nothing to do with my boss, actually.
44:39Because what I want is to be understood.
44:43Why do I need to be understood?
44:46That's in my head, right?
44:47Because pain and suffering doesn't happen out here.
44:51Suffering is always up here.
44:54There's no suffering out here.
44:56It's always a perception problem.
44:59So that's why I like to say that you don't have relationship problems, you have belief problems — because all suffering comes from these beliefs, from these judgments.
45:07Thanks for the therapy session.
45:10Let's switch gears a little bit and keep talking about the career stuff, which could be helpful to people listening.
45:19So you're saying "I am" are two most dangerous words in English.
45:25And I want you to expand it, applying it to how people perceive them in their careers.
45:30So for example, in my industry, if we take it very narrow, it's SEO professionals — search engine optimization.
45:36People think of themselves as SEO professionals, and I can see how this is limiting them in their careers, to put this kind of, what you call it, moniker on themselves.
45:50So that's something we definitely have to be careful of.
45:52And we love these labels, because labels give us a sense of security.
45:57That when we assign ourselves a particular moniker, some kind of noun, it takes care of the uncertainty for us.
46:04We don't like, as humans — we hate uncertainty, 'cause uncertainty involves risk.
46:08So when I say to myself, "I am not a morning person," "I am a Sagittarius," "I am an ENTJ," "I am a search engine professional" — when I have those labels, they give me a sense of security.
46:23I don't have to question that anymore.
46:25The problem is, it leads to something that's called identity foreclosure.
46:29Identity foreclosure is when we stop exploring what we are capable of based on our identity.
46:37And when your belief becomes who you are, you're in a very dangerous space, because you become very rigid.
46:47"This is who I am" — not "this is what I believe." It becomes who I am.
46:51And that's a very, very dangerous concept, because your behavior will conform to your beliefs, and you can use that to your advantage or to your detriment.
47:01So for example, people who believe… So I used to be clinically obese.
47:06Not just overweight, but actually clinically obese.
47:09And one of the things that changed the game for me was believing that I'm an athlete.
47:16Do I have evidence for that?
47:17I started exercising a bit more.
47:19Nothing rigorous, right?
47:20Sometimes it would just be a walk.
47:21That's my favorite form of exercise, is just long walks.
47:25I care about my physical health.
47:27That conviction that I am an athlete, versus what I used to tell myself — "I'm a couch potato," right?
47:32"I'm lazy." I used to tell myself that stuff.
47:34I am not someone who likes exercise.
47:39That's why that's the most dangerous word in the English language, is whatever comes after "I am." When you have that label and you foreclose on it, and that's it, this is who I am — you can't change.
47:48It becomes like your eye color.
47:50But that's not true.
47:52If someone thinks I'm an SEO professional, what should they think of themselves?
47:56Well, first of all, is it causing you suffering?
47:59Like, thinking to myself I am an athlete is not bad.
48:03It's not hurting me.
48:04But if I am serving that belief, if I… You know, I used to serve the belief I'm lazy, I don't like exercise, right?
48:11That belief was controlling me.
48:13It wasn't helping me.
48:15So if thinking I am an SEO professional is serving you, great.
48:19But if you see — you know what?
48:22Does that define me?
48:24Does that mean that I can't explore other options?
48:27Can I not be a startup founder?
48:28Can I not be an AI professional?
48:31Can I not branch into other things?
48:33If it's holding you back — because, well, this is who I am, that's what I've always done — it may be time to re-explore that and open the aperture to other identities.
48:41So do you need some kind of umbrella identity, or can you just, like, stack identities to yourself?
48:48So for example, I think of myself as a marketer, but I speak at conferences, so I'm a speaker.
48:55I recently wrote a book, so I'm about to become an author.
48:58So I'm just kind of stacking identities — and again, correct me if I'm wrong, but at some point, in my head, I kind of can be anything I want.
49:07So I did this, I did that.
49:10So if the next thing I want to be is a startup investor — successful one, because to be an investor isn't that hard these days — I can go there and in a couple years achieve my goal.
49:21So basically, I'm trying to not even confine myself.
49:25I'm just stacking those different monikers.
49:28Yeah, and you can use them in a time and place that serves you.
49:31That's the beautiful thing about beliefs.
49:33So what I want people to realize is that your identity is flexible.
49:38Your identity is not like your eye color.
49:40You can decide tomorrow to be somebody else.
49:44I don't believe that we have this inner, you know, voice.
49:47It's a very dangerous concept, this concept of a soul or the true being.
49:51You hear people saying, "Be who you really are." What the hell are you talking about?
49:55There's no such thing.
49:56And I think it's very dangerous, because what happens when you have a bad thought?
49:59What happens if you have an evil inclination?
50:02What happens if you think something that you don't like to think?
50:05You know what people do.
50:06They internalize it.
50:07They say, "Oh, that's who I am." No.
50:10You can reinvent yourself.
50:11You don't have to have this fixed identity.
50:14You can decide: hey, in this context, I'm the kind of person who does XYZ, 'cause that's what helps me serve my community.
50:20That's what helps me be kind to others.
50:22That's what makes me a better person and fulfill my real potential.
50:25So what I'm rallying against are those limiting beliefs — those beliefs that keep us small, that decrease our motivation, that increase our suffering.
50:36That's what we need to free ourselves of.
50:37You know, I was diagnosed with ADHD, and this is something I'm very passionate about, because I think in many ways, getting a diagnosis can be a self-limiting belief.
50:49That diagnoses at first feel great.
50:52You know, when I was told I have ADHD, it felt very freeing.
50:56It was intoxicating.
50:57Well, that explains so much.
50:58That's why I'm struggling.
50:59But then you know what happened?
51:00Every time I would start getting distracted, I would say, "There's my ADHD. That's who I am," right?
51:07I am this diagnosis.
51:09And then I would start spiraling to this anxiety loop of: well, am I always gonna have it?
51:13I'm never gonna get over this.
51:14How am I gonna meet my deadline for my book, and what are people gonna think?
51:17And now I was super distracted, as opposed to doing the thing I was supposed to be doing.
51:21And so now I've changed my beliefs.
51:24I don't believe that ADHD is a chronic brain disease.
51:27You know that about a third of people who are diagnosed with ADHD lose their symptoms.
51:31They learn techniques to overcome those symptoms, because — there's no X-ray, there's no blood test.
51:37And that's with every identity.
51:38There's no blood test that can tell you you're a Democrat or a Republican or a Muslim or a Jew or a Christian.
51:46And so I choose the beliefs that serve me, and it didn't serve me to think I have a chronic brain disease.
51:52I now have a belief: this is what it feels like to get better.
51:56That's my liberating belief.
51:58So it doesn't hold me back.
51:59It liberates me — that when I'm struggling, good.
52:02That pain, that adversity, is an opportunity.
52:06This isn't happening to me, it's happening for me.
52:09I choose to believe this is what it feels like to get better.
52:14I choose to believe that the fact that I have a brain that maybe is different from other people's brains makes me great at some things, right?
52:21I've written three books with ADHD, so apparently it's served me in some way — because when I'm super focused on something, I love it.
52:28You can't tear me away from it.
52:30When I'm bored by something — when I'm doing my taxes or whatever — I don't like it, it's boring, I'm distracted.
52:36So I think having that looser identity, you know, keeping that idea able to be changed… If there's one phrase that's very hard for me to hear that people say is, "Well, that's just the way I am." Oof, those are terrible words.
52:56On the topic of beliefs — choosing beliefs that serve you and choosing beliefs that don't serve you — there's another interesting thing that is quite counterintuitive in how you approach it.
53:11You say that manifesting and vision boards actively backfire.
53:16While all my life I heard that you need to have specific things that you want, that you visualize.
53:25You have to create this vision board and go towards it, because if you… Like, it's your map, and if you don't have a map, you're sailing nowhere.
53:32So tell me why manifesting and vision boards backfire.
53:37And this isn't just me — and I know I get hate from this, because it's become a religion.
53:44And there's a million different interpretations.
53:47What is manifesting?
53:49There's a million different flavors, right?
53:51There's no one specific, you know, pope of manifesting that tells you how to do it.
53:56But the common perception of — well, if I think hard about it, if I dream, if I visualize, if I can see myself in the Lamborghini and with a beach body and the money and the relationship, if I can see it, then the universe will give it to me somehow.
54:11That if I'm putting out this cosmic order, and then things are gonna just come to me, is very dangerous.
54:19It's not only ineffective, it actually backfires.
54:21And it's not just me who's saying it.
54:23There's been extensive research on this.
54:25The work of Gabriele Oettingen — she took people, and she asked them to do a visioning exercise.
54:32Picture that thing you want.
54:34Students were asked to visualize the grade they want on an exam.
54:38People who are dieting visualize the beach body.
54:41You know, if you're visualizing wealth, okay, think of yourself or the things you're gonna buy.
54:46And what she found was that when she connected people to blood pressure monitors as they were doing these visualization exercises, these manifesting exercises, they became more relaxed.
54:58And after the exercise, the people who did the visualizations became less likely to do what it would take to get those things.
55:09So for example, the students who visualized getting a good grade on the exam studied less, and did worse on the exam, than the people who didn't do the visualization.
55:20We think it's because — well, I put in my order, you know, like making a Grab or a DoorDash order, and now the universe is just gonna deliver to me.
55:27And that's not how life works.
55:29And in fact, I think another beef I have with it is that you're teaching yourself that I can only be happy, I can only stop suffering, when these things happen.
55:39When I have career success, then I can stop suffering.
55:42When I have love in my life, then I can stop suffering.
55:45When I look the way I wanna look, then I can stop suffering.
55:49So your vision board is a reminder that you are suffering.
55:52That you're miserably… that you lack.
55:54You're constantly reminding yourself, "I'll only be happy when…" And let me tell you, when you get those things, you're still gonna be just as happy.
56:04It's not gonna change.
56:04You're not gonna say, "Oh, now I can finally be happy. Now everything is great." Now, it's not bad to have goals.
56:09It's great to have goals.
56:11But you don't want to trick yourself into thinking, "The only way I can stop suffering is if, is if, is if." That's what you're training yourself to do.
56:19Now, there is a right way to visualize.
56:21The right way to visualize is what athletes do.
56:24So this is a great example of how the self-help industry took something that was true and made it false.
56:28What athletes do when they do visualization exercises — they're not sitting there visualizing the trophy and the gold medal.
56:34No athlete does that.
56:35What you are visualizing is: what will I do, physically and most importantly psychologically, when an obstacle gets in my way?
56:45That's called mental contrasting.
56:48That has been validated in many studies to be much more effective.
56:51So for example, I told you about how I used to be clinically obese.
56:54So when I sat there on the couch and visualized, "Oh, I'm gonna have that beach body and I'm gonna have six-pack abs," that didn't work — 'cause I was just sitting on the couch.
57:02I wasn't getting any exercise.
57:03I was probably eating something while I was doing the visualization.
57:06What did work was visualizing: okay, I know I have a birthday party on Friday that I'm gonna go to, and I'm pretty sure somebody's gonna offer me some chocolate cake, and that's not something I want on my diet.
57:17So what am I gonna do when I really want the chocolate cake, and I feel bad saying no thanks?
57:22That's what I should visualize.
57:23That's what I should prepare for.
57:24That's what I should practice.
57:26How will I respond psychologically to that discomfort?
57:29That's what athletes do.
57:30You know, Michael Phelps famously, when he was competing in the Olympics, his goggles fell off — and he still won the race.
57:36For most mortals, if your goggles fall off in the middle of the Olympics — pfft, that's it.
57:42But he had practiced that so many times.
57:44He didn't practice, "Ooh, it's gonna feel so good on the trophy stand getting my medal." That's pointless.
57:49What he practices: when something goes wrong, when something is difficult, what am I gonna do?
57:55That's the right visualization.
57:58In terms of your comment about how motivation of people changed when they start visualizing — that they had less of it — I've heard about a somewhat different dichotomy with announcing your goals publicly.
58:10So there is two schools of thought.
58:12One of them says that once you tell everyone, "I'm writing this book," there would be like public pressure for you to keep going, because you promised everyone that you're writing a book.
58:23If you don't do it, you're a failure, and this keeps you going.
58:26On the other hand, another school of thought tells you that once you tell everyone that you're writing a book and they pat you on the back — "Oh, this is so cool. This is such an achievement. Very good for you" — you get all the public appraisal, and you're no longer motivated, because you already told everyone.
58:44So this is also kind of in the ballpark of what you believe in and what works for you.
58:52So is telling people that you're onto something, and this is your goal — does it work for you?
58:57Does it help with your beliefs and motivation, or does it sap you of motivation?
59:02This is very important thing to understand.
59:06Yeah, I think it's a great question.
59:08I think even better is getting your head right about your beliefs.
59:14I'm skeptical of whether having that social pressure is always a good thing.
59:24There might be some times when it's a very temporary type of goal where you have a deadline — having that deadline and social pressure can help you, but for the short term.
59:34For long-term endeavors — you know, something that takes months if not years to accomplish: losing weight, writing a book, starting a business, whatever it might be — you have to find the right beliefs to keep yourself going.
59:48Because here's what happens.
59:49When times get tough, which they invariably will, you need to have the right belief set.
59:55This is what mental contrasting is all about.
59:57It's not just preparing physically, of what you will do, but also how you will feel — how you will interpret those sensations.
1:00:03So it's much better to ask yourself: when I don't feel like writing the book, when I don't feel like working on the business today, when my kids are annoying me, when my boss is annoying me, what are the right belief sets that I will have?
1:00:13What are the liberating beliefs that I will tell myself that will help me overcome that discomfort, that will help me realize that pain doesn't have to be suffering?
1:00:22What am I gonna tell myself so that I don't quit in that moment?
1:00:25And I think that relying on others — telling everybody so that it holds you socially accountable — I think that that can actually really make things worse, because now you feel like you're letting down more people.
1:00:36And if that causes more pain, more suffering, and you don't know how to deal with that suffering, it can really be overwhelming.
1:00:42"I'm gonna quit the whole thing."
1:00:43And now you feel even worse about yourself, because now you've collected evidence that you're a quitter.
1:00:47So I think it's much better to make sure that before you start any big venture like this, that you have a plan in place for how you will deal with that discomfort in a way that serves you rather than hurts you, by changing your liberating beliefs.
1:01:01We talked for an hour and barely scratched the surface of all the ideas that you have in your book.
1:01:06Thanks a lot for coming on Ahrefs Podcast.
