0:00Why is it in an age with so much information abundance, why don't we do what we know we need to do? What's missing? We don't understand motivation. What I fundamentally learned is that what's missing in most of our lives is not that we don't know what to do. It's not that we don't want the benefit. It's that we don't have the right beliefs.
0:18And beliefs turn out to be the the keystone to long-term motivation. And long-term motivation is the defining factor for whether you succeed or fail at your goals. It's not that persistence guarantees success, but quitting guarantees failure.
0:37Welcome to the show. I'm Jay Shear, host of Business Minds Coffee Chat, where you get a captivating look inside the minds of game changers, risktakers, and visionaries who turn ideas into breakthroughs that shake up the world. Our mission is to give you fresh ways to think that spark growth in your business and life so you can make a mark that lasts.
1:05Many people believe the biggest obstacle standing between them and the life they want is a lack of time or resources or discipline or talent or opportunity. But what if none of those are actually the real problem? What if something else quietly shapes what we attempt, how long we persist, what opportunities we even notice, and ultimately who we become.
1:34Well, my guest has helped millions build better habits, strengthen their focus, and gain greater agency over their lives in work. He's a husband to Julie and a father to Jasmine. He writes, consults, and teaches at the intersection of psychology, technology, and human potential. He previously taught at the Stanford Graduate School of Business and has worked with leaders in companies
2:03around the world to improve performance through better behavioral design. He's a New York Times best-selling author of three books, including his latest, Beyond Belief. His writing has appeared in major media outlets, including the New York Times, Harvard Business Review, The Atlantic, and Psychology Today.
2:24Would you please welcome the man who's helping all of us stop limiting ourselves and achieve breakthrough results. It is Near Ayal. Near, it is so great to see you. Thank you so much for being here today.
2:38Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for that wonderful introduction. It's such a honor to be with you today.
2:43Well, thank you very much. And I I got to tell you, I am thoroughly looking forward to this conversation. This has got to be one of the most fascinating topics to me and I know it's going to be the same for so many that are watching and listening today. So, let's let's dive right in. I wanted to start here.
3:02Your previous books answered really two big questions. How habits are formed and also how to become indistractable?
3:13So what question remained unanswered that made you realize that there was another book inside of you that needed to be written?
3:25Oh yeah. So, so the genesis of Beyond Belief was some funny phone calls that after I wrote Indistractible, I I started getting these calls as part of my office hours. You see, every week I talk to readers. I I devote an hour every week. I do four calls and uh I love to talk to people who have read my books. If they have some feedback or questions, I learn from it and inspires me to to along new lines of research.
3:50And so, not every call, but maybe like one out of 20 calls would sound something like this. Somebody would call me up and they would say, "Hey, Near, I read Indistractible.
4:00I really liked it, but I just wanted you to know that it didn't work for me." And I'd say, "Oh, wow. You know, tell me more that I'm so curious what you what part didn't work. Let's go step by step and we can figure out why it didn't work." So, so how did step one go for you? What did you do for step one? And they'd say, "Ah, yeah, step one. step one. Um, I read step one. I totally read it. It's just that I didn't um do it. And I'd say, "Okay, I understand.
4:29All right. Maybe that one was confusing or difficult. How about step two? Did you do what did you do for step two?"
4:35Yeah. You know, I I read that one, too.
4:38I really like that section. It's just that I I I I didn't do that either. And so, I was so confused. Why was it that people would wait for months sometimes to talk to an author of a book that they had read to tell me that the thing that they didn't do didn't work?
4:55And then I realized, wait a minute, it's not my readers. This is me. I do this, don't I? I I I have books on my shelf that I have read and not done any thing with. I've watched the YouTube videos and the podcasts and the hired gurus and experts that give me great advice that I haven't put into practice. Why? Why is it in an age with so much information abundance, why don't we do what we know we need to do? What's missing? And I
5:23think what's missing is that we we don't understand motivation. We think that motivation is just about knowing the right behavior. That if I just knew what to do, well, then I would do it. Or maybe it's about the benefit, right? that if I was motivated enough to seek that reward, the benefit of doing the behavior, then I would do it. And it turns out that's not enough. That classic economics teaches us about incentives that if you want a a benefit,
5:52you do a behavior. And if you want the to if you do the behavior, you get the benefit. But that's not it's not that simple, right? Clearly, it's not that simple. What's missing is that you can't just depend upon knowing what to do the behavior. even wanting to do it. The benefit is not enough. That motivation is not a straight line. Motivation is a triangle. That you not only need to know what to do the behavior, you not only need to know the benefit while you're doing it, but most importantly, what
6:20keeps your sustained motivation alive is the belief that if I don't believe that I'm going to get the benefit, let's say for example, I work for a boss who I don't believe in their leadership. I don't believe that they know what they're doing. I don't believe they're going to give me that promotion I deserve. Am I going to work for that person for very long or very hard? Of course not. I'm going to do the bare minimum and then I'll probably find another gig.
6:46Conversely, if I don't believe in myself, if I don't believe I can do the behavior, even if I know exactly what to do, how many people have you known who know exactly what to do, right? People who, for example, you know, know everything about a sport, right? Right?
7:02They can tell you all the statistics from the basketball game or the football match or whatever. They can tell you all the stats and they know exactly how the sport works, but they don't play. They can't do it right. Why? And it's the same with our jobs. Even when we know exactly what to do and frankly, who doesn't know what to do anymore? If you don't know how to do something, Google it, ask GPT, buy the book on the topic.
7:23The information is there. It's not hidden anymore. Anybody who has anything to say shares it these days. There's no more secrets.
7:31What I fundamentally learned is that what's missing in most of our lives is not that we don't know what to do. It's not that we don't want the benefit. It's that we don't have the right beliefs. And beliefs turn out to be the the keystone to long-term motivation. And long-term motivation is the defining factor for whether you succeed or fail at your goals. It's not that persistence guarantees success, but quitting guarantees failure.
7:55So, let's stay on this point here because I think it's a very important one and this is really how you open your latest book and I would love it if you would share the personal story that you talk about your own journey in your youth. You were overweight at the time, but let's let's make this real and tangible so everyone that's watching and listening gets it, they understand it, and you've put it into practice. So tell us a bit about that story.
8:25Sure. Yeah. I mean I can show you some pictures, but I I wasn't just overweight. I was actually clinically obese and um I started dieting at I think 13 14 years old and I kept dieting for decades and I tried everything. Uh you know at first I started with the lowfat craze. That's what we we were told in the 90s you know when we all used to eat snack well cookies because they were low fat. And then after that um no you're not supposed to do low fat anymore. I became a vegetarian and then
8:54after that I did keto and then after that it was intermittent fasting and I tried all these diets and you know what they actually all worked until they didn't because as soon as I lost the belief in the diet uh low fat is bad for your insulin uh vegetarians don't get enough nutrients keto is bad for your whatever pancreas liver I don't know as soon as there was some kind of doubt then my belief evaporated And as soon as
9:22my belief evaporated, I lost motivation because I kept thinking that there was an ultimate diet, an ultimate truth. And this is why I was confusing facts from belief. You and we all do this, right? That a fact is not the same thing as a belief. We say, "I believe this. I believe that." And we think we're saying we believe in something that is true.
9:45But that's not the definition of a belief. The definition of a fact is something that is objectively true. Okay? It's something that's true whether or not you believe in it. The world is more like a sphere than it is flat. That is a fact. I'm sorry if you have any flat-earthers in the audience, but the world doesn't care what they believe. Fact is a fact. You cannot change facts.
10:04On the other end, you have what's called faith. Faith is a conviction that does not require evidence. God rewards the righteous. There's no amount of evidence that's going to change someone's faith on that matter. Nor should it. It's a matter of personal faith. But between fact and faith is something very special. This is what we call a belief.
10:23A belief is a conviction that is open to revision based on evidence. Conviction that is open to revision based on evidence. And what makes beliefs so special is that unlike faith, which most people never change, unlike facts, which you cannot change, beliefs are malleable.
10:44You can pick your beliefs. The problem is is that most of us don't realize that our problems, interpersonal problems, personal issues, geopolitical issues come from the same source, which is people who confuse their faith for facts and don't give others the intellectual humility to realize that what they believe is is just a a faith, which is great. It's when we try and push it on
11:13others as fact. And that many of the things that they think are facts are nothing more than beliefs. And nothing is more dangerous than what we call a limiting belief. A limiting belief is a belief that saps your motivation and increases your suffering.
11:30So for me, whenever I would fall off the wagon and I'd say, "Ah, you know what?
11:35Diets don't work." Right? That the food industrial complex is conspiring to make me fat. uh that you see it's harder for a fat pe person like me to exercise.
11:44People just don't understand how difficult it is. I had all these limiting beliefs that kept me stuck. And ultimately what what helped me get out of of of this problem of of this state that was was really hurting me physically and psychologically was that I changed my limiting beliefs into liberating ones. And that's really what Beyond belief is all about. How do you use what's called the three powers of belief? The power of belief to change what you see, what you feel, and
12:13ultimately what you do. This decides who you become quite literally. So at that stage in life when you're going through the roller coaster ride of diets, some working until they don't work and you're changing your beliefs along the way based on new knowledge that's available to you.
12:41Where did let me back up for just a moment. the beliefs that you were carrying at that stage that I'm I can't exercise, I'm too big, or you know, I need to be able to eat to maintain my energy, whatever those things were.
12:58I have a slow metabolism work. Uh, you know, the list goes on and on and on and on.
13:05Where did they come from?
13:08Were they great question? Were they a product of your environment? Were you hearing that from your your family members, from friends, from the TV?
13:16Where was it coming from?
13:18Yeah. So, it's a great question. Uh, and it's the same answer for all limiting beliefs that our beliefs uh it's not they're not your fault. You don't choose these beliefs, at least not in the beginning. That your limiting beliefs come from your upbringing. They come from your culture. They come from something somebody said to you, like you're not a math person. you got a bad grade on a test one time and you somehow repeated it again and again and again
13:47until it felt like a fact.
13:49And we hear them all the time, right? we hear uh I'm not a morning person or uh uh uh you that that's just who I am or uh this is too hard or I'm not ready or that's just not me or you know etc et all the time and you know I interviewed billionaires and I interviewed people who are broke and what I learned is that all of us have these limiting beliefs not in all areas of our life which is what makes them so curious that we think you know if if you're good in one area
14:18of your life you've got to be good in all your areas is that you're just a good person somehow. That that's morally sanctimonious to be able to to to be great in all areas. And what I found is that we all have these limiting beliefs. You know, how we we all know these people who, wow, they're so great at business, but they neglect their family.
14:35They're amazing athletes, uh, but but they're in debt. You know, we, you know, we we tend to have these areas of our life where we're struggling in one area, even if we're fine in another. And and the the difficulty is that these limiting beliefs that come as we we said from our upbringing from something we we heard someone tell us and we indoctrinate ourselves into these limiting beliefs are hidden. It's almost like your face that if I told you look
15:03at your face, how do you look at your face? You can't look at your face. You're not in the way you can look at your hands or your feet. You can't look at your own face just like you can't see your own limiting beliefs.
15:13Interestingly, just like how we can see other people's faces, you can see other people's limiting beliefs. Have you noticed that? You can see your spouse's limitations. You can see your kids, your co-workers, your boss. Oh, you can see all their limiting beliefs. You can see all the reasons they're deficient in some way or another. But you can't see your own, right? Unless you reflect.
15:36Just like how we see our face. If we want to see our face, we have to take out a mirror. We need something outside of ourselves to see our own limiting beliefs. And and that's why we need this process is to see the things that are hidden to us so that we can address them so that we can get over them. So it's not that these having these limiting beliefs are your fault. They're not your fault. You you didn't pick them at first, but they are your responsibility because once you become aware of them, once you see them for what they truly are, that they're just beliefs. That's
16:05all they are. They're not facts. It's not faith. It's a belief. And because beliefs can change, the most important lesson I can give people is this. Beliefs are tools, not truths. Facts are truths. Beliefs are not truths. Beliefs are tools. So, we should pick the tool that's right for the job. We should pick the belief that serves us rather than hurt us.
16:31I love that. And as you said a few minutes ago, beliefs are malleable, which allows us to recognize the fact that they can we we can adapt and we can change, right? We can use the beliefs that work for us and change the beliefs that no longer serve us like tools in a toolbox. So, let me ask you this then because I I I just want to stay on the story of you and your youth for just a
17:00second. At what point or what was it that enabled you to get from the limiting beliefs that you were holding on to to releasing those and having those become liberating beliefs? What did you read something? Did somebody enter your life?
17:21What what was it that actually made that radical change? because that's that's pretty significant unless you had someone in your life who was able to reflect back on you and help you work through that.
17:34So there I think there's a few ways that you can lose weight and for many years I just white knuckled it. I used willpower. I used uh u discipline, right? And that was that that was a a road that was full of suffering. It was miserable. And then I I learned to change my beliefs. And again, what what's the definition of a limiting belief? The definition of a limiting belief is a belief that decreases your
18:01motivation and increases your suffering. And then I learned a liberating belief. A liberating belief is the opposite. A liberating belief increases your motivation and decreases your suffering.
18:13So the most important turnaround that I did when it came to weight management and it comes this actually applies the same switch of beliefs uh applies to my work. I think I I credit it for why I've been able to write three bestsellers and uh have have a a wonderful career to date. It's it's I think I have the best job in the world. It's because I changed my mind on how I see feel and what I do around my beliefs related to pain. And this is one of the
18:41biggest revelations that I had. Now the science u you know everything I do is very sciencebacked. I'm a very skeptical person. I wanted to see I need to see the peer-reviewed studies. And what's interesting is that science is now catching up with what the ancients have told us for for years that pain is not suffering.
19:02Pain is not suffering. Right? This is this is not new. The Buddhists have told us this. The stoics told us this. It's about separating those two things. And now neuroscience we actually know that pain and suffering did you know occur in different parts of the brain that pain is the processing of information.
19:18Suffering is the psychological interpretation of that data. So those are two separate things. So, a long-winded way of answering your question around how I changed my mind around dieting and why it unlocked my my true potential and and now I I live a much healthier life because of it is that probably the most common limiting belief is that feeling bad is bad.
19:42Feeling bad is bad. Well, of course, feeling bad is bad, right? What what's this guy talking about? Is it though? Is feeling bad always bad? If you have if you're if you're in pain with purpose, that's not suffering. That everything worth having in life is on the other side of pain, right? You you want to start a successful podcast, you tell me, Jay, I is it without pain? No, of course there's going to be pain. It's hard. Is raising a family? That I'm telling you, I have a 17-year-old. Yeah, that's
20:11that's not easy. It's going to involve some pain. starting a business, writing a book, uh having a successful marriage, everything you name it, everything worth having in life. There's going to be pain involved, but it doesn't have to be suffering. There's a difference. And so for me, I used to go down this anxiety spiral. Every time I was hungry, when I was on a diet, I'm I'm I'm so hungry.
20:34This is terrible. What's going to happen? Am I always going to feel this way? When is this going to stop? How this is never going to work?
20:40And now I have a different belief. My new liberating belief is this is what it feels like to get better. This is what it feels like to get better when I'm writing. And let me tell you, writing is freaking hard, okay? I've written three bestsellers, thousands of articles. It's never easy. There's always pain involved.
21:02But this is what it feels like to get better. Before, whenever I was bored or anxious or lonely or uncertain, I need to escape. Let let me scroll social media. Let me watch a YouTube video. Let me check email. Email will take it away. Really, what I was doing was escaping this discomfort that I didn't want to feel. You think you think we're addicted to our technology because of our technology? No.
21:24It's a pain response. We don't know how to deal with discomfort. So, when I changed my mind about how I what I believed about pain, everything changed. This is what it feels like to get better. And and it's just a it's just a a difference in story. It's a difference in interpretation. I'll give you another example. So, you know, I I I've always loved to write. I did not like to do public speaking.
21:48And uh but I I what I work on I'm really passionate about. I want others to know about it and it's changed my life and I I'm thankful to to to say that it's changed the lives of millions of people. But in order to do that, I got to get on stage and I got to tell people about it.
21:59But when I used to get on stage, I used to have terrible stage fright. I'd get the sweaty armpits. I'd get the cotton mouth. I'd get the the heart beating in my chest uh so loud that I thought the whole room could hear it. And I would avoid speaking opportunities because I was too anxious. I I just I I would say to myself this story of why am I so anxious? And if I was a real public speaker, then I wouldn't feel this way.
22:19And this is this I can't handle this. This feels terrible. I hate this. This is this is this sucks. This I'm not ready for this. And then I change the belief. What's the new belief? I'll tell you, Jay, right now, I'll confess to you. Right this minute on your podcast, I feel the same exact physiological symptoms. I I I have the sweaty armpits.
22:36I have that cotton mouth. That's why I have this big glass of water next to me. I I have the the heart beating in my chest that I can still feel. Same exact physiological sensations. Different belief. Now the belief is my heart is beating quickly so I can get more oxygen to my brain so I can deliver my best possible presentation. Same data, same information, same painful physiological response.
23:02Not suffering. It's not suffering because now there's a different belief. That is phenomenal. And you know, it reminded me when you first started talking about pain, suffering, and when I was reading this in your book, it absolutely took me back to my years when I was studying Buddhism. And I remember reading multiple times that pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.
23:33And the first time I heard that, it really it it opened my eyes because I re at that point I started questioning is that true? And the more I looked at specific instances in my own life, I I started to see the pattern that was happening over and over again when I would create my own suffering. And when you when you have the perspective to be
24:03able to see that and this is something else that you said about awareness, when you have the awareness and often it takes someone else or a book like yours as an example or a conversation like this to help you start to see things differently. And the awareness piece was critical obviously, but once I started to see that, it really uh it hit home.
24:30And then I was paying more attention to the way that I felt when I was in a painful situation. And I really worked very hard and still have to work hard at times to ensure that I'm not going down the rabbit hole of suffering as a result of whatever painful situation it happens to be. So, I so appreciate you you mentioning that
24:57and I think the um I didn't appreciate how far the rabbit hole goes that when you say you a lot of a lot of us have have heard this this uh that saying that that uh pain is inevitable but suffering is optional and we think about emotional pain, we think about our feelings, we think about, you know, the the the hard feelings we have in a in a conversation and and this absolutely applies to to those situations.
25:23But the deeper you explore how literal this is, not just with our feelings, not just with our emotions, but with our physiological state that when it comes to, you know, I document in the book how uh I'll tell you this quick story. There's a there's a guy that I interviewed uh who uh his name is Daniel Gistler, and he's the most black and white, cutand dry analytical guy you've ever
25:51met. He used to be a commodities trader, the least woo woo person you've ever met, okay? Like none none of the none of the woo woo stuff for him. He he's allergic to that kind of stuff. And in his 50s, he has this freak accident and he has uh he breaks the bones in his ankle and he has to have pins put into the bones of his ankle to allow them to heal properly. Now that healing process took a few years and in the interim period as his bones were healing he stumbled across this YouTube video and
26:21he learned a technique called hypnos sedation. Now hypnosed is this technique that quite literally teaches people how to separate exactly what we're talking about how to separate pain from suffering.
26:33And Daniel Gistler was able to do something that I would not tell you about had I not seen it with my own eyes. I've actually seen the video recording of Daniel Gistler going under a 55minute procedure where scapel is cutting into flesh where metal is yanked from bone and the man went through this entire procedure without local anesthesia, without general anesthesia,
27:01without topical anesthesia, nothing.
27:04Totally awake. Now, why am I telling you this story? And by the way, it sounds spectacular. It sounds like one in a million. No, in fact, turns out tens of thousands of people have done surgery without anesthesia using hypnosed. It's popular in uh in Italy, in uh parts of France and Switzerland. It's not that uncommon. Lots of people do it. And the reason I tell this story is one to share with people the amazing power of the
27:31mind that look that this is possible. This is already within you. There's nothing special about Daniel Gistler. just learned a new technique just like you know learning to read or ride a bike. It's just a skill like any others. And two, I'm not advocating for it. I don't want people to get the wrong idea.
27:44I'm not doing hypnosis anytime soon. But if that's possible, if human beings can dis can can distinguish between the pain and suffering of surgery without anesthesia. If human beings can do that, what does that mean for the rest of us?
28:04Right? What does that mean about when I say to myself, I don't feel like going to the gym today. I'm too tired. I don't I don't want to. Right? Or I don't want to repair that relationship. It's too it's too uncomfortable, right? Or I I don't feel like working on that project today. I don't want to make my sales calls. I don't want to write that page in my novel that I've been dreaming. I It's okay. I'll just wait. Why? Why do we defer those things? It's simply because it hurts. At the end of the day, it's just a feeling. I don't want to.
28:30Right? That's the source of why we quit.
28:33It's not that we're stupid. It's not that we don't know what to do. It's not that we are bad people. It's just it hurts. I don't want to, right? Doesn't feel good. And so, if Daniel could do this with the power of the mind to go through something as extreme as surgery, wow, what could we do? What could we unlock in our own latent potential?
28:53Yeah, that that's such a fascinating story. Now, as you're telling that story in the book, you also mentioned that and and I didn't realize that you had actually seen the video of this surgery, but I I believe you had mentioned in the book that he had his I I believe whether it was the hypnotherapist or whoever was guiding him was maybe there during the
29:20surgery and was talking him through this and he could feel he couldn't feel the pain, but he could feel the sensation of like the the cutting or the tugging or whatever it happened to be. But at one point during the surgery, I think toward the end perhaps, the surgeon had made a comment. Tell us a little bit more about that and then what ended up happening.
29:48Yeah. So uh during this surgery the at at the end towards the end of the procedure this was the surgeon's first time uh operating on someone who was under hypnosed and he said something like okay we're almost done and Daniel took that to mean in his fully awake state he heard that and he took that to mean that it was actually almost done and so he began to to get out of that hypnotic state and that's the part that he said was most
30:17painful because it turns out doctor wasn't actually done. He was just done with the surgery part, but he hadn't finished the suturing. He had to put in the stitches.
30:24And that's the part that Daniel actually felt because now out of this hypnotic state, he he he felt what was actually happened to him and it turned into suffering because he was kind of back in the real world, so to speak. Uh and so that's when he learned that uh you know that the doctor should not say those kind of things until he's absolutely totally 100% done.
30:45Amazing. Well, that is an incredible story and um you know, as I was reading it, I'm thinking to myself, and this is the point that you just made that wow, if if if he can do this, right? Somebody who is very black and white, not into the woo, as you mentioned, if he can do that, what are we capable of doing? And I think that's a question that I regularly ask myself and ask my clients and I know those that are watching and
31:13listening right now are going to be asking themselves the exact same question because it really does open your mind and it opens your eyes to the power of belief. Now share with us a a belief that you've held on to that was maybe useful to you at one stage in life or at least one season of your life but has become limiting in another season
31:42and and if you could maybe give us an example and then how did you discover it?
31:48Sure. I mean, I'll give you uh an area that I think has most changed my life since writing this book is is with my relationships. And if there's uh one belief that I have uh had for maybe my entire life is that I have a very judgmental mother. Uh and uh a few years ago, I remember I it was her birthday and I wanted to do something nice for her. So, I wanted to send her some flowers. problem was I was living in Singapore at the time and she was in
32:16central Florida where I grew up uh near near you and so I stayed up late at night and I wanted to make sure that she got the exact flowers that I knew she was going to love uh from a local florist. So I called the best florist I could find and I got the best flowers I could afford. And I went to bed that night totally sure that I was going to call her the next day and hear from her what a wonderful, generous son I am. But that's not what happened. What happened was Jay, I called her up the next day
32:46and I said, "Hey, mom. Happy birthday. Did you get the flowers I sent?" To which she says, "Yes, I got the flowers, but just so you know, they weren't so nice, and in fact, they were half dead. So don't order from that florist again."
33:01to which I said, 'Well, that's the last time I buy you flowers or something like that. And I'm sorry I said it, but that's what came out. Now, my wife, Julie, who was right next to me, she heard the entire conversation and she's my editor. She we work together, so she knows all about the research I I was doing for the book, and she turns to me and she says, "Nar, would you like to do a turnaround on that?" To which I said, "No, I do not want to do your touchyfey
33:29hocus pocus mumbo jumbo. I need to vent.
33:31That's what we're told to do. When someone offends us, we have to tell them how we feel, right? We have to get it off our chest. We can't keep our feelings bottled up inside. We have to speak our truth. Well, thankfully, I knew enough at that point about what the research literature says. And it turns out that venting is not good. That in fact, when we vent about people, we're doing nothing but reinforcing our existing beliefs about them because we don't see people as they are. We see people as we believe them to be. So
33:59every time we gossip, every time we vent about people, we're creating this effigy of them, right? Especially the people we know best, we we see what we believe them to be. Or more accurately, we don't see people as they are. We see people as we are. And so I didn't vent. I decided to take my wife's advice and I did a turnaround. Now this turnaround this is this is comes from a technique called inquirybased stress reduction which was first developed by a woman by the name
34:27of Byron Katy who who really kind of popularized the technique and uh but to be honest it actually the roots of this technique go all the way back to Aristotle over two 2500 years ago uh he did something not not too dissimilar and the technique asks us to start with where is our suffering okay so the first step and you do this. You can follow along if you're listening. Where is your suffering in your life? It can be about anything. There's no suffering that's
34:56too great or too small. I've seen someone do this exercise because they didn't like the way they felt and behaved when they were stuck in traffic.
35:05Okay? They were short-tempered. They got a bit of road rage. Uh they didn't like the kind of person, especially if their kid was in the car. They didn't like the kind of person they were becoming uh when they were stuck in traffic. A very relatable example. I have also Jay seen someone with terminal brain cancer.
35:20She's no longer with us use the same exact technique I'm going to describe to you to get past her suffering about her illness. Uh so there's no suffering that's too great or too small. Okay? So you think what kind of suffering are you feeling? Maybe it's that that uh uh that goal that you've deferred, that New Year's resolution that keeps coming up year after year and it you it bothers you. It's you suffer from the fact that you're not doing it. Maybe it's that relationship that needs repair like my
35:47relationship with my mom. Maybe it's um you know the the fact that you're not able to do something uh make those sales calls, write that book, uh whatever area of your life that might be causing you some kind of suffering. Where where where do you find yourself annoyed in some way? Okay. Think about where where that is for me source of Oh, yeah. You want to share it?
36:08Sure. So, yeah, I I'll this is a real example. So, we like we do typically each year, we filed an extension on our taxes.
36:19And I have been, let's just say, procrastinating on gathering all the information that I need to from a business and personal perspective to get to my tax preparer.
36:33And the only reason why I'm procrastinating is because I've built up this story of how painful it is to go through the process to take the time because I'm too busy doing other things. I mean, I I can go down a rabbit hole here, but that's the gist of it. So, what's happening is, of course, every single day that I don't work on that, I'm creating more suffering. And that suffering creates a
37:00ripple effect in other areas as well, which is the the that that's a whole another issue. But anyway, so that's my suffering.
37:09I'm just curious what's what's the ripple effect? Where else does that manifest? So because I'm creating that suffering, the moment that I have that feeling in my chest and in my head, the very next thing that I'm trying to work on, which could be some deep work on something relating to a client I'm working with or preparing for a podcast, right? It distracts me to the point where I have
37:38to step away. I have to go outside. I have to reenter myself, deep breathing, meditating, whatever it happens to be.
37:45But it takes energy and focus away from other things that are important to me, things that actually matter. And and the reality is is that I know that that suffering is just it's in my mind, right? It's a story that I'm creating. And that's I know that intelligently which which is why it's so almost painful and embarrassing to tell you but that it's the truth.
38:11Well, I appreciate your vulnerability. I know the audience does too. So, let's work through this together. Okay. So, I've got my mom, you've got your taxes. Let's do it. Okay. So, step number one, where is the source of suffering? So, if you're listening to the sound of my voice right now, if you don't don't be passive, do it. Okay. Do this with us.
38:26You know, Jay's got his We're both being vulnerable here. If you're listening, follow along. Okay, so where's that source of suffering? Now, why are you suffering from it? Okay, I'll tell you mine. I'll start. Okay, the source of my suffering is my mom. The reason I'm suffering is that she's too judgmental and hard to please. Okay, if somebody sends you flowers, you say thank you.
38:47You don't complain about what kind of flowers they sent you from, you know, especially halfway around the world.
38:53Well, you know, what is she doing? She's clearly being way too judgmental and hard to please. So Jay, for you that what's causing you suffering is that the fact that you have to do your taxes?
39:03Why is that causing you suffering?
39:06Because I'm thinking that it's going to take too much time and energy and I have to go to all these different sources to collect the information and it's just time consuming.
39:17Great. Write write this down. Okay.
39:20Doing my taxes takes too much time.
39:23Okay. I would write down my mother is too judgmental and hard to please. If you're listening, do it as well. Okay?
39:31Why are you suffering? Make give me a short concise statement. Why are you suffering from that thing you identified? Okay. Now, inquirybased stress reduction asks us four simple questions. The first question is that why that belief that you have, is it true? Is it true? My mother is too judgmental and hard to please. Uh, of course it's true. What a stupid question. Clearly, right, Jay, if I were to send you some flowers, you would, you
40:00know, I don't know why I would send you flowers, but let's just say you would say thanks and that'd be the end of it, right?
40:06But no, she was being very judgmental and hard to please. So clearly, right, doing your taxes takes too much time. It's a fact, right? What are we even talking about? It's a fact. So, question number one.
40:15Question number two, is it absolutely true?
40:21Sounds like the first question, but you see there's a slight difference.
40:24Yeah. Is it absolutely true? Is my mom judgmental and hard to please? Is that absolutely true? There's no other potential explanation. I have to admit there might be. There might be a 1% chance that there's another explanation for why she did what she did or why I'm feeling what I'm feeling. So, I can't be 100% sure. Okay, that's question number two.
40:48Question number three, how do I feel or who do I become when I hold on to that belief? So, so Jay, when you hold on to the belief doing my taxes takes too much time, how do you feel? You you mentioned a little bit about it, but how does that make you feel?
41:04Yeah, terrible actually. uh embarrassed that I'm not just dedicating the time to do it and frustrated that I feel that it is taking too much time or will take too much time and that's holding me back from doing the work that I know I should be doing.
41:23Amazing. Uh embarrassed, frustrated, held back, right? When I believe that my mother is too judgmental and hard to please, I feel anxious. I feel annoyed. I feel like this 13-year-old version of myself I don't really like. Okay, so now we're going to do question number four.
41:39Who would you be without that belief? If I close my eyes and I just just let the belief go. Okay, let's just pretend that that belief doesn't even exist. It just dissolves into nothingness. It never existed. Just imagine that. Pretend that that's the case for whatever belief you think is causing you that suffering.
42:00Okay? When I did that, I felt amazing. I felt like this weight had been lifted off my shoulders. I felt more like the person I wanted to become. Jay, if you do this, if you believe taxes don't take too much time. Let's say that that that that it just disappears. Okay, we're not going to try and logic it out. Truth, false, that's not what we're looking for. Let's just say you let that belief go. How does it feel?
42:26Well, I'm going to use your one of your words or words. I I would feel like a huge weight is lifted off my shoulders. I would feel productive and honestly, I would just feel better about myself knowing that I saw something in front of me that needed to get done and that I removed anything that was blocking me from doing that and I focused and made it happen.
42:52Be amazing, right? Okay. Okay. So, what did we just learn in four simple questions? What did that take us? Like three minutes. We learned that number one, the thing that we thought was a fact. I was very sure that my mother is too judgmental and hard to please. That's a fact. Turns out wasn't a fact.
43:06Just a belief. That holding on to that belief made me feel pretty bad, right?
43:11It was was causing me suffering. And that number four, the fourth question, that actually if I let go of that belief, I felt much better. But how do we do that? How do we let go of that belief? Well, here comes the fun part.
43:23This is called the turnaround. And the turnaround asks us to do something that the brain does not like, which is to change its mind. The brain hates changing its mind. Okay? So your brain is going to fight tooth and nail to tell you why. No, no, no. This is the way things are. Okay? That's our evolutionary heritage. Your brain wants to keep you safe. That is your brain's primary objective. Something new could be dangerous and risky. So the best thing your brain can do to keep you
43:51alive today is to keep you thinking and believing and doing exactly what you did and thought and believed yesterday.
43:57Okay? So that's natural. We're going to expect that our brain is going to say, "No, but what about this and what about that and he doesn't understand my mom this blah blah." Our brain's going to fight in every reason to keep us doing exactly what we've always done. Okay? So expect that and we're going to do it anyway. And the way we do it is we ask ourselves, could the exact opposite be true? So I'll demonstrate. Could the exact opposite be true? My mother is too judgmental and hard to please. That's my first belief. I got one belief. Let's see if I can get two beliefs. What's the
44:25opposite of my mother is too judgmental and hard to please? My mother is not too judgmental and hard to please. How could that be true? How could that be true?
44:36Well, she did thank me for the flowers, didn't she? She was just saying a statement of fact. The flowers weren't so nice. So, could it be true that maybe she wasn't trying to hurt me? Maybe she was trying to help me. Maybe she just didn't want me to get scammed by this florist.
44:54Could be true. Maybe. Okay, now I have two beliefs. Let's go for a third. The opposite of my mother is too judgmental and heart to please could be I am too judgmental and heart to please. How could that be true? Well, wasn't I the one who stayed up till 1 in the morning rehearsing exactly the words of eusive praise that I deserved for doing this nice thing for her. And when I didn't get that praise telling me what a great
45:22son I am, I lost it. So, who was being judgmental?
45:28I was. Okay, here's a fourth belief. The opposite of my mother is too judgmental and hard to please could be I am too judgmental and hard to please towards myself.
45:40How could that be true? Well, the more I thought about it, I was the one who put in all this time and effort and money into doing something nice and when it didn't work out, I felt bad. I felt like it was my fault, like I'd messed up. And this is a very important concept in psychology called misattribution of emotion. When we feel bad on the inside, we attribute it to something on the outside. I can't believe she said that and how could that person do that to me? And did you see what's happening in the news today? All
46:09that stuff outside of us is what we think is causing our suffering. But that's not true. Does suffering happen out here. Is suffering going on outside of us? No. All suffering happens between your ears. All suffering. Where else could suffering be? It's all in the brain. So now I have four beliefs.
46:36None of them. All of them. Who cares?
46:39Who cares? Beliefs are tools, not truths. That first belief, my mother is too judgmental and hard to please. In order for me to stop suffering, she had to change. Now Jay, you don't know my mom, but I'm telling you that's not going to happen. Right? When we hold our breath expecting outside circumstances to change that other people to change, the world to change so I can stop suffering. When we do that, if you hold your breath, you're going to suffocate.
47:04That's not how suffering works, right?
47:06Suffering is not going to stop because outside factors change. It happens within yourself.
47:11With the other beliefs, I could do something with that. Doesn't mean my mom and I have to be best friends. We don't have to hop and skip in the park and have picnics every day. No, it doesn't mean any of that. It just means I don't have to suffer. And what happens to my motivation level from my limiting belief of my mother is too judgmental and hard to please. Who wants to be in a relationship with someone they believe is judgmental? You lose motivation that way. Well, now with this new liberating belief, I want to work on this relationship with my mom. That's now I can control my suffering versus thinking
47:40she's controlling it. She's causing my suffering. With you, Jay, let's I I just demonstrated a few turnarounds. Let's see if we can do something with this this this taxes issue. Okay. Okay. Okay.
47:50Your limiting belief was taxes take too much time, right?
47:55What's the turnaround? What's the opposite? That could also be true.
48:00That they really don't take too much time.
48:04Okay. How could that be true?
48:10because I have done it in the past year over year and I've shown myself that when I dedicate the time to it that and remove distractions that it really doesn't take that long.
48:29Okay, it really doesn't take that long.
48:31Okay, what's there could be another limiting belief here as well around too long.
48:40Is there a turnaround there that could also be true that uh taking doing taxes does not take too long? Doing taxes takes as long as it needs to take?
48:49True. H how could that be true? What does it mean too long? In whose mind is too long?
48:59It's your It's in your head, right? What too long is like I'm suffering because it it should takes short it should take less time. And this this by the way is the source of all suffering.
49:08Wanting that something wanting something that is to be different. You're judging, right? I'm judging my mom. You're judging how long something should take.
49:18Who says it's too long?
49:21Maybe taxes take as long as they need to so that you can learn something.
49:29Not about taxes. I don't care about taxes, right?
49:32Maybe it's an opportunity, right? The fact that taxes take you a long time is an opportunity to practice patience.
49:45Good point. Absolutely.
49:47Right. Beliefs are tools, not truths.
49:50Right. That maybe this is in your life right now. this has come to your attention as an opportunity to be better because as you said it it filters into other areas of your life.
50:02You said earlier how that annoyance bleeds into other things. Well, I'm guessing it's not just about taxes, is it?
50:10There's probably other things in your life that you think should happen faster that people should get out of your way when you're in traffic or when you go to the airport the line's too long or who knows what, right? We all have these. I'm totally guilty of this stuff.
50:21All right, here stop. Now I feel shame.
50:24Hey, we're in bucket, B. You know, I'm telling you, buddy. This is I wrote this book. Research is me search.
50:30Like I needed this book more than anyone.
50:34I love this though. So good.
50:35Just the other day, I dropped a cup of coffee. Okay. And it shattered. The mug shattered. And And this is one of my new liberating beliefs because before I would have said, "Oh, god damn it. I'm I'm so clumsy. What a And I'm going to be late for my meeting and should have this and judgment this." And you know, that should not have happened.
50:52Is that helpful? You know what's helpful? This is an opportunity to practice patience. Good. I'm glad. Would I do it again? No. But now that it's happened, I have a choice of what example I can set for my daughter. Do I raise my voice and yell at myself and make a fool out of myself in front of my daughter and say, "Oh, I'm such a klutz." Is that the example I want to set? Or this is an opportunity to practice patience.
51:17I love this. This is this is so powerful for all of you that are watching and listening right now. I really hope that you are going through this exercise with us. We took time to go through this exercise and Near did such a wonderful job of guiding me through it as he was sharing his example as well. But the reason is is because it's so important.
51:42Think about how you can apply this in your life and in your business and your relationships and every other way. So please please make sure that you are going back relistening to this section and then putting this into practice. That's how we learn. That's how we grow.
52:00And it actually goes back to what Near had talked about at the beginning of the episode that you know here the feedback that he was getting on his first two books. Some of the feedback was that well I really didn't try that you know I read it but I really didn't do it. Well this is your opportunity to do it. So that that's awesome. So Ne, I wanted to ask you this because as we were talking about your own weight loss journey and
52:29in your book, you talk about um pills and so on and so forth. I wanted to ask you about like taking pills and shots, you know, shots today with the GLPS and so forth. Does that Yes, people are losing weight as a result of maybe taking a pill or taking a shot, but does it change their belief
52:56system that's underneath of the weight gain itself? And and is that and I'm not asking you to to talk about the efficacy. It's I I'm really focused more on the belief side. So, what are your thoughts there?
53:14Well, I I'll I'll relate um to another difficulty I had. So, I was diagnosed several years ago with ADHD.
53:23And uh at first that was a very it it felt great actually to to be seen to to have a reason for my difficulties explained to me. But then something terrible started to happen that every time I became distracted.
53:40Every time I was bored or struggling or found my my mind wandering, my mind would spiral into that same anxiety loop of wait, here's here's my chronic ADHD again. I how long is this going to happen for? And is am I ever going to get over this? And why do I have to suffer from this? And everybody else doesn't and am I going to have this my whole life? And now I was completely focused. All my attention was focused on this anxiety spiral around my diagnosis.
54:07And so the diagnosis became true because now I wasn't focusing on the thing I was thinking about a minute ago that I actually wanted my attention to to be focused on. And what I discovered was that I had all kinds of limiting beliefs around my diagnosis.
54:24That in fact your labels can become your limits. Now I'm not saying ADHD isn't real. I'm not I'm not a doctor. This is not medical advice. But I'll tell you, for me, thinking of my ADHD as a chronic brain disease was a limiting belief. It was not helpful. First of all, we know that about third of adults grow out of their ADHD. There's no blood test for ADHD. There's no X-ray. It's a subjective analysis. They ask you on a liyker scale, how often do you feel distracted? Never, sometimes, often,
54:52always. It's subjective, you know. So, we all feel distracted these days. And frankly, if you want an ADHD diagnosis, pretty much anybody can get one these days. It's because we all feel these symptoms and the diagnosis is is fairly easy to to get. So instead, I don't let my label become my limit. That's one of the things I I really have learned in writing this book is that a diagnosis can be very useful if it's a map. Okay?
55:18So, you know, you think about a treasure map. X marks the spot. Here's you and here's the path to the treasure. And so, the diagnosis can help you get from point A to point B. And you know what?
55:27Maybe some people are at different places on that map. Maybe I've got some challenges that other people don't necessarily have, but I'm not the map.
55:37I'm not my ADHD. It's not who I am. The most dangerous words in the English language are whatever come after I am. I am not a morning person. I am not good at math. I am a Sagittarius. I am a person who suffers from ADHD. be very very careful of whatever comes after I am and choose those things consciously.
55:59Don't just take whatever limiting belief someone shoves down your throat just because they have a white lab coat on. Really think about what beliefs you are going to believe about yourself. Those are the most powerful limiting beliefs.
56:12And so I think a big part for me was realizing when it comes to my weight, you asked earlier about my weight and what you know having a diagnosis or taking some kind of medication might might do. You know what I felt with my ADHD is that by by using it as as a map rather than identity, I was avoiding what's called identity foreclosure.
56:32Identity foreclosure is when psychologically we say this is who I am and nothing's going to change it. Right?
56:38I am what I am. That is cancer. that is super toxic. We have to be very very careful around that. Rather, we have to ask ourselves, wait, which belief is serving me? Is it beneficial for me to believe that being hungry is always bad?
56:55And that's actually what GLP1s do. People say that when they take GLP1s, they stop the food noise, right? The constant chatter, which I believe they as a formerly obese person, I know food noise. It's that constant voice of I want it, I want it, I want it, I want it.
57:10The thing that shifts shifted in my mind when it came to my weight, we didn't have GLP wines back then, but the thing that shifted my mind about weight or my ADHD is, is this a bad thing? So, I'm hungry. So, what's going to happen? Am I going to die? Am I going to starve? Not anytime soon. I think I'll know before I starve. But a little bit of being in a caloric deficit. Okay, you're hungry.
57:36So, I'm a little bit distracted. Okay, I have ADHD. Guess what? I've written three bestselling books with ADHD. You know why? Because when I'm working on something that I really enjoy, I'm super focused. I love it. I can't get enough of it. When I'm working on something boring, yeah, I'm very distracted.
57:53So, using that label uh as that ma map and not letting it become who you are, whether you're struggling with with losing weight or distraction or whatever it might be, be very very careful. Don't let your labels become your limits. God, that is so good. So, Near, as we're wrapping up our conversation, I would love it if you would give all of us, including me, a a challenge. What is one thing that you would challenge us all to
58:27The one challenge I think uh oh, there's so many. I I'll tell you one lesson I think is very important to know is that it's very important that we have the intellectual humility to realize that we don't see reality clearly. We do not see things as they are. We see things as we believe them to be. And I'm not speaking metaphorically. Literally, what you believe affects what you can see. We know that people who are on a diet see food as larger. That people who are
58:56afraid of heights see distances as further away. that I can show two people. It's called a coffer illusion.
59:02Same image and based on where you were born, you will either see rectangles or circles. Same image based on where you were born. So your beliefs literally determine what you see. They affect what you feel. Not just physically, but als not not just psychologically, but also uh physically what you feel, how you experience pain and suffering. And most importantly, they affect what you do, your sense of agency. And so the the challenge that I'd love to give everybody is to simply notice
59:31how you're seeing the world and ask yourself, is it true? Is this the only way to see the world? And am I defaulting to a belief that I've always believed or one that's actually serving me? And if it's not serving me, I can try a new one. I can try a new liberating belief as opposed to sticking to the limiting beliefs.
59:51Amazing. Thank you so much for that. And I hope that everyone right now is saying two words. Challenge accepted. Near. This has been really a rich and completely insightful conversation. I have thoroughly enjoyed our time together. I want to thank you so very much for bringing your wisdom, bringing your latest book, Beyond Belief, to life, for sharing your stories and just know how grateful I am for you.
1:00:24Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for having me on and thank you for helping me spread the message. I really appreciate it.
1:00:29Absolutely. And for all of you, I want to thank you so very much for watching and for listening. And I do have a quick favor. Would you please take just a moment to leave us a review? Let us know what you thought about this particular episode with Near. I would love that and we'll make sure that we share any comments and feedback that you provide to him. And to enjoy more episodes, all you need to do is visit jsherbusconulting.com, click that podcast button. And my
1:00:58friends, until next time, keep learning, keep growing. Do yourself a favor, run out and pick up a copy of Beyond Belief.
1:01:07As a matter of fact, buy more than one and do yourself a favor. Give the book to your colleagues, to your family, to your friends. It is a lifecher. And as we've been talking about, don't only read it, apply the lessons you learn in this book. And we will see you on the next Business Minds Coffee Chat. Take care, everybody.
