0:00I think we're going to be able to attract and build the world's best finance organization because so much what people want the ability to learn and feel like they're being invested in and surrounded by people that want to go and become the best at their craft.
0:11We'd love to hear a little bit about what made someone a great hireer on your team, a great person.
0:16I want folks that feel extremely intellectually curious. You're coming in and trying to solve and try to understand the business really well. You want to use AI as a tool to help you and empower you, but it's really, really critical to still be that thinker. We're in an era right now where a lot of slop is being called out. I've heard one CFO talk about how using AI just led to unlimited amount of docs that are being created every day. Anything that you're putting out there that you're asking someone to consume, it's going to take them time, effort, and energy. 95% of the challenge there is just like getting your data in the right spot.
0:43What do we think changes in the next 12 to 18 months?
0:47If our biggest complexity was staying the same, I think we probably wouldn't need the same number of people a year from now. Um, welcome to the A16C podcast. I'm CMA Amble. I'm joined here by my partner Ivon Macarov. We recently wrote a piece called You Need a New CFO. Our argument uh was that AI takes um finance to the next level. And the CF CFO's job increasingly includes building and automation and really designing the
1:14systems and the team to do that. Today we're joined by Pier Milwani um who's the CFO at Figma. and we'd love to explore what you have seen over the course of your career and uh what you and your team are doing now. Preier, thanks for joining us.
1:28Yeah, thanks for having me. Excited.
1:29Maybe to kick things off um both Ivonne and Preier would love to hear a little bit over the course of both your careers how automation has changed the role in finance and what the team does.
1:41You know, I've always felt like the the role of a finance individual should be this operational leader. Uh and you know you know when I joined Figma none of the automation pieces were were you know in place at all. Uh and I felt like in order for me to be effective at the time that I had joined you know a lot of my work needed to be living in SQL building the data tables really understanding how how I could orchestrate the financial information to drive the conversations I wanted to then have uh across the company. Um, and you know, I continue to I continue to kind of go back to that
2:10initial days that I had in that seed and what I was doing as the force multiplier, the piece that actually gave me the ability to have the scaled impact across the organization. And if anything, I think, you know, what I was building way back then is that much more possible and plausible and accessible to individuals by uh by the tools available to them today. So, um I hope that more and more folks feel like they can be empowered to take that operational sort of lens to the way that they actually go and and position and work with their with their counterparts across the business. Um because I do think that's
2:38the magic of shifting this role from, you know, what can be viewed as like a traffic cop sort of financey type function to one that's a business enabler and and a true change agent within the organization. And to double click on what you were using for automation maybe pre-ai um maybe explain to people what exactly you were doing.
2:57Was it macros in Excel? Was it using OCR for documents?
3:01Yeah, honestly it was like everything under the sun. So like I uh it started like living in SQL looking at all of our uh product metric and utilization data mapping it to all the financial information we had in Stripe. uh I'd go and create these like four or 500 lines of SQL uh that I'd want to then use to create the golden tables that I'd go and pass off to someone or then be able to pass to different go to market systems that we'd be using. Um so I felt like you know uh I spent my day living in that living in uh that query editor. I'd then go and tell and of course waiting for the query to
3:31run for totally. Yeah. And you hope you got it right the first time. Uh, and then I'd go and I' I'd, you know, eventually I had, you know, we eventually hired data scientists and I'd go and tap them and say, "Hey, I have this thing I went and built. Can you go and add it to our ETL process?" So, it goes and, you know, there's a recurring job that I can then use that same information and pass it to Salesforce or Marquetto or whatever systems that we were using at the time.
3:53Um, and that was like the initial sort of unlock for me of like, oh my gosh, if I can get consistent in our in our definitions, in the way that we're talking about things. Um, no longer are we ever debating like what what's true and what's fact. Um, and we can just get past that and really focus on, you know, how are we actually going to go and drive the business.
4:10I was talking to someone who was in their early 20s, um, who was complaining about how long a prompt takes to run. And I was explaining to them, you've not lived the pain of like hours on hours of waiting for SQL a SQL query to run and then only to come back and be like, it didn't really didn't totally work. Um, and uh and so yeah, it's it is just an order of magnitude.
4:33Y the time is really interesting, right?
4:35Uh especially the era that we've lived through. Um when I was at web flow at Figma, we saw for example a huge spike in usage in coit that I could not believe in the beginning. I don't know if you've you've experienced it this way too where I thought our data was broken or something else was broken but it took us weeks to figure it out and I feel like today in this day and age we live in a day where you could figure it out to an hour with some of the some of the spikes some of the some of the usage revenue as well like this is very different world we live in. Um did you experience that as well? Uh I mean yeah
5:04I mean our business took off uh during the early days of the pandemic. I think that was actually the the the time where where we started to partner with the folks at Indry was like right at right at the early stages over there. Um, but yeah, I mean, I wake up every day. I mean, I I have the ability to to to go and, you know, rebuild my context on what's happening and then at any moment during the day, you know, the team team loves it when I'm I don't know if they love it, but they but they know that I'm constantly in there going and taking a look at, you know, hourly dashboards or or sort of daily metrics on things to make sure that I'm also um sourcing things that I think maybe look like
5:34anomalies or, you know, asking the right questions. And I think they view me similarly to how they view how they view their role within the organization is like uh you know a counterpart who has ideas who wants to come to them and and truly build the you know the best business possible all using and having access to the same data available to each other.
5:50Yeah. What's interesting like when you and I went to college around that time that was more of a monthly or quarterly cadence um and then it became a weekly cadence. I remember maybe especially with data moving more into the cloud it became like let's have a big weekly dashboard to where now what's possible is is daily um has that changed your habits the way you even just look at think about data how often you think about it all honestly I view data and having access to it as like the key unlock to how I can run my day effectively um you know and so
6:19throughout my time at Figma was the thing that I would wake up every day and I you know I remember we there would be like 30 people that would sign up for a paid plan um in those first few days when I joined and I'd go through line by line who are they are they personal addresses are they business addresses are they people that we can reach out to what can I learn from this um to help us inform what we eventually built which was our organization's product um and I think like I think early days it's extremely important uh and then now I I I just understand the the um the
6:48repercussions of you know movement in any one direction uh and if you catch something on before it becomes um uh you know a big deal, it can actually save the business like hundreds, thousands of dollars. Um, uh, but if you catch in the other direction, you can really put more juice behind it and and really seek to to to unlock in the other way. So, you know, if anything, like I I view this as like a daily, if not like, you know, more than that rhythm. Um, and I think the the the goal for me is how do I empower other folks on on my team and
7:16across the business uh to similarly feel the accountability um to those same metrics and truly act as business owners and and want to go and triage things and not say like hey I can wait till next week like you do need to solve it sooner rather than later because I do think the rhythms here um are moving really rapidly. And before we get into what you've automated, would love to hear a little bit about uh what made someone great, a great hireer on your team, a great person um in a leadership role maybe preai.
7:46I think I mean honestly a lot of similar things today, but I think that you'd apply them slightly differently. Um I want folks that that feel extremely intellectually curious. you're coming in and trying to solve um and try to understand the business really well and then seek to problem solve in a way that um you know is trying to drive the right outcome. Um I don't think that necessarily has changed today. Like I still very much value that. Um I do think that you can make a lot of the tedious tasks or the repetitive nature
8:13of things um uh feel like they take less and less of your time so that you can spend more and more of your time. um really trying to seek how you can um uh you know find the places of magic within the business that you can go and supercharge. Um so you know intellectual curiosity, fluency with data, ability to ask really solid questions um and then structure your thoughts in ways where you can actually u make sense of the data that's being given back to you um and then thoughtfully communicate it on the other side of it.
8:42How would you interview for that? you how has it developed or some of the way uh you know it's interesting today I'm uh or rather right now I'm I'm uh hiring for a VP finance uh and the case study part of the process for me is so so sacred um I want to both test for like how are you using the tools available to you um so yes I you know I fully expect folks to I don't give them a lot of information as part of this case study we're a public company so I get the benefit of you know a lot of data out there um but how you actually piece that
9:12that those puzzle pieces together in a way that um actually makes sense. The model output makes sense. You have the ability not just to go and create that output, but you like truly understand how it works. Um so then I focused the case study conversation on like have you really really understood the the structure that you've created. Have you molded it in a way where you've tested what are the highest um uh what what are the pieces of that model that are uh the the most sensitive to any change? Do you
9:41have a strong intuition on uh how the business is actually working using the tool that you've created? Um and then like we were just talking about can you effectively communicate that um because yes I think like you know anyone can go and create like a you know a model sitting in and you know pick your favorite take pick your favorite LM you can go and do that really really easily.
10:00Um, but like are you using it as an effective tool that like actually is enabling you to to think? And I think like um you don't want to outsource your thinking today. Like I I think you want to use AI as a tool to help you and empower you. Um but it's really really critical to still be that thinker.
10:16Yeah. A lot of what you're describing applies to a good hire with or without AI. I think if anything AI just you need more of the um the accountability and thoroughess to know that the thinking is there behind it um as as you receive a work product.
10:33Let's drive in a little bit on or to understand what you've automated and we can talk a little bit about what we've been seeing with our portfolio companies. Um but maybe walk us through a couple of workflows at Figma that you've automated and how did you decide what to focus on and what did you what did you do to automate them? Yeah, I you know they're so broad and so I you know maybe I could pick a few that um to me have been fun to see. I think um I think we've like moved really quickly even over the last over the last year to say you know how
11:02do I go and uh try to coach people to embrace new tools and new ways of working to now one where I feel like I'm you know constantly being um uh constant constantly being like hit in the face with a lot of these really cool ideas.
11:15Um we do a segment uh at the at the company all hands we all hands is called fig nation where u we show folks how others have built with AI and consistently our team shows up as as a team that's that's there um so it's things with you know Kajal and our our credit and collections team he's gone and rebuilt uh his entire workflow everything from invoice tracking cash collections making sure that we can reconcile everything to to Netswuite and he's done it in a way where it's like a homegrown system where you know it's it's tied to the various systems that we
11:44use um it then is freed him up to say okay well I can go and continue to drive down my days receivable by focus f focusing on the on the things that really matter um and then focusing on what are the other um sort of tedious tasks I can go and build automation for and so he's then gone and say well I can go and like rebuild the way that I want to run our credit checks and I can go and stitch together the data sets in interesting ways that allow me not to have to go and uh you know manually go and uh into them and it's a singular way where he can now go to um anyone to to
12:13say hey go and leverage the tools that have created to to to go and um and really drive um and drive change there.
12:19Um on our uh on our core dev team, it's it's been really fun to see like how they you know both will uh you know can you vibe code a product is one of the one of the checks that we use in diligence now um which is actually really fun to see um like how how deep is your remote how how interesting is the technology there and I think you know everyone should be able you'll try to recreate the product. Wow.
12:39Yeah. Um, and you can I mean I think our team's gotten really damn good at at some of this and so you can get through some of the you know is this a real thing? Is it not? Like how how difficult is it or not? And you know there's obviously nuances to to a whole bunch of these ideas but it gives you like a solid intuition there and before would you have had to go to the product team to do that part of the diligence?
12:58Yeah I mean we still partner with the product team but you can take a lot more of like hey this is what I built this is what I've seen and it builds a lot of credibility there. um are I can pause and those are some of the corp people right not product people their finance background right yeah fascinating yeah um totally and they um we're like a very documentoriented culture so they write investment memos they write um uh uh you know M&A memos whatever it may be and you know amongst them the end the end
13:28readers or the the the folks that are digesting it are going to be folks on our leadership team or other product leaders and um you know more often than not there are themes there are similar questions there there are ways that we all as leaders tend to have a way of looking at problems and what's what's been interesting is they've gone and created unique p personalities for each of us as leaders um uh as you know a set of skills that they can go and run their investment memos by um to actually improve the process you have a like an investment committee that exists like the interaction between all of them
13:58throughout exactly so so that's exactly what they'll end up demoing um or rather they'll they'll sit there kind of going back and forth and saying okay this is what Pierre would say and this is what Dylan would say and this is what like you know Sean would say our CRO and so you kind of get you get you get like the areas of the document that you either want to go and plus up do more diligence on what are common sets of feedback that I need to go and make sure I ask the questions over um and then it reduces the cycle time that we're all sitting together on. So you know I I there's a lot of these areas where you know we're both feeling like it's it's a tool that helps you augment. It's this tool that
14:27helps you go and replace workflow um and then it's this tool that helps you seek to understand and learn. And I um uh you know I'm constantly surprised at like how um you know quickly we've been able to riff on things. And you know for me it's it's actually put me in this really optimistic spot of saying like um I'm going to I I think we're going to be able to attract and build the world's best finance organization because so much what people want is the ability to learn and feel like they're being invested in and surrounded by people that want to go and um you know become
14:56the best at their craft. And as much as I can do to go and effect and enable that change, the better I think we're going to be able to go at retaining and growing and grooming that talent over time, too.
15:04And are all those tools, did you build those right with the LM directly or are you guys also looking at um off-the-shelf AI tools that you can partner with and would you rather build or buy?
15:18Yeah. um the ones I was describing uh you know it's a mix like some some of them folks were sitting in codeex and you know I think that's what the team is doing on the um uh on the corporate development team they're sitting in codeex and trying to you know work their way through something um we've also seen folks like sitting within um you know some of the workflow automation pieces and building skills around agents uh using chat GPT and so that's you know how some of the credit and collections pieces were were being built and we've also started to see folks being able to embrace it and build it on our tooling as well so we you know we have a tool called Figma make which allows folks to
15:47be able to prompt through natural natural language and create, you know, um an application, a website, uh you can then host it. You have like a, you know, backend behind it. And so, you know, some of those instances are starting to crop up too. So, um I'm actually excited about that because then we can then we can ideally flip into this world where we can give product feedback as well. Um which, uh, you know, I I I know everyone would love. I think we're in the era right now in the period in the cycle where a lot of slop is being called out.
16:12Um there's been a lot of conversation too where we went from unlimited token to people just calling it slop um in meetings or I've heard one CFO talk about how using AI just led to unlimited amount of docs that are being created every day and you just can't find anything because everybody can write a doc now or 10 docs in in in in few minutes it took it would take you a week or two. Um were there some of the areas where u and that naturally created also the conversation around hiring. Do you hire younger people that are more versed in these tools? Do you hire um people
16:42more experienced that maybe both or do you hire more senior people that know what the world class looks like? And that's what worries me a little bit is that we will forget what the world class looked like just like in the preAI era, you know, where a really good model looks like. Um like especially with some experience and having created models.
16:59Um where do you think this is going?
17:01Like have you at the coal slop on some of the stuff that's being created right now with AI sometimes? Yeah.
17:07Yeah. I I think like you know I think we we've also done a good job internally um about building policies around like branding when you've written something with AI. Um I think like you know one of the things that's really important I think I was sharing it earlier like you should not be outsourcing your thinking.
17:25Um you anything that you're putting out there that you're asking someone to consume it's going to take them time, effort and energy. And so I think you want to make sure that you know you put a similar bar to go and review, read, summarize, make it simple. You can start in a different place. I'm totally cool with that. Um, but I do think it's on all of us to make sure that we're, you know, being really thoughtful about how we how we use each other's time, uh, as well. Um, so yeah, I mean, I've been in I've been in instances where I, you know, things look a little bit halfbaked and you really poke around. You're like, did you do you really understand what's going on over here? Um, but I've been
17:55also been in instances where I'm like, oh my gosh, like your speed of iteration here is like pretty damn incredible by virtue of how you set up. Like couple weeks ago, I was sitting in a we're going through 27 planning. you know, sitting in a T& review, we're looking, you know, we're looking at our T& portfolio and saying, okay, where where do we have the opportunity to go and make changes to policy or maybe where are we not like upholding policy where we should um and our corporate finance team, they did a really good job about stitching together information that lived in different data sources. We use
18:20Non, we use Zip, we use um RAMP and um there's a lot of fuzzy match that you have to go through in order to like really get that information working.
18:29Like was someone actually traveling for for an off-site? What if they lived in San Francisco and were just visiting?
18:34like how do you actually want to go and like tag and treat that data? Like 95% of the challenge there is just like getting your data in the right spot. Uh and these models are good at making making these assumptions for you. And I I didn't need something 100% perfect. Um I just wanted something that was directionally, you know, in the right, you know, in the similar vein for where I'm going that gave me enough information to understand, you know, what are the areas I really need to crank the dial on. Um it was really interesting. They both like outputed a set of suggested changes that we needed we needed to we could make. Um, I gave I
19:02remember giving feedback that morning 30 minutes later on like some of the construction of how I actually wanted things to look look like. Like like it was all visualized for me when we got in the meeting. I was like, "Holy this is like a really fantastic use case here." Um, and they did it in a way that like um you know uh I don't think they would have been able to do it by hand.
19:19Um so you know as much of that slop you know I think can happen. I also think some magic can really get unlocked if you if you if you kind of like use the right tool for the right purpose. um and understand you know what is what is good enough and what needs to be like really really picture perfect.
19:32A couple of comments to that. Um I mean a key unlock is the data. Right? Now with AI you can consume all these sources of data and quickly do the fuzzy match get u a a directionally correct or precise uh you know reconciliation across these sources whereas before right you had to run the SQL query it had to you had to wait and then and see if and then and then essentially you had to be your own BI uh analyst on on top
19:58of it. Um the second piece is there's this muscle that's being developed around the automation right and so even if there is slop like for example I was talking to one of our growth stage CEO CFOs who was saying that in I think a month or two there have been you know 40 or 50 agents created by their team which obviously are not all being used but it was getting everyone in this motion of of okay if I don't um if I'm doing something manual or tedious I don't have
20:27a great tool for it let build and so a lot of those maybe 90% I would guess of those tools and agents are not being used anymore but it got people to think okay instead of doing this manually let me think automation first around it um which I think is almost as important as getting the like uh the the agent built yeah I 100% agree with you I also think like how you share it how you get other people to understand what other people are building and then you end up in these scenarios where where you know our internal audit team is like I they spend
20:56a ton of time going and like following up with individ iduals to make sure that they're adding information, you know, on the tickets that they need it so it could be trackable for our sock or socks audit. And then you're like, well, you know, that internal audit team is not the only team that does that. You know, our GRC's team is doing the same thing as they go through like all of our ISO and sock 2 audits as well. You know, you have a bunch of this back and forth on the AP side when they're going and writing acrals. Like you you wanted to go and build this motion of going and triaging, pulling information in, reconciling it, and why not go and build a singular platform that does that. This
21:25is actually where I think like you know a systems team is re is really really interesting to come in and and then harmonize some of the things that you see are happening really productize it um so that you don't have all these individuals going and building similar things that I think is like the evolution of what a CIO function should or could be. It's like how do you go and you take a lot of these bottoms up things that people have crafted and you have it you have it re be rebuilt and repurposed in a way that can live on beyond the creator uh and the and the initial builder. Um, so I I I uh you know I think that that that crossorg
21:54sharing we're doing some of it at our at our you know um at our all company all hands but we're also doing a lot of it internally across our teams.
22:00I was also talking to another one of our growth stage companies um the head of customer success was saying every one of his reps had a different dashboard that they had vibe coded and they had different numbers. Yeah. Um and so I think to your point uh there has to be some reconciling function. Um which would which is a great segue to hear from you guys around uh what are people doing in terms of the teams that should be building this are and who is who's taking the agency? Is it, you know,
22:30someone initially builds an agent from your team and then you're taking it to um you're taking it to an engineering team centrally and we talked a lot about this idea of the finance engineer which we can unpack further but we'd love to hear a little bit about yeah I I think like you know I think we've always had I think having specialists come up with the ideas and iterate. They know what good looks like.
22:50They know what they want. Um they know the process that that they're trying to uh make look right. like they're fantastic in going at going about building these initial prototypes. Um, but do I want that same individual to be the individual that has to go and make sure that they're checking for all upstream dependencies and making sure that like, you know, if they were ever to leave that like this thing is hosted in the right way. Um, and hey, does anyone else across the organization have the same need? Probably not. This is where I think like, you know, a world-class CIO org can can come in and
23:19really show some magic here. Um, yeah, I'm really excited. We just had a new CIO join yesterday, a guy named Casper Sorenson who joined over from Coinbase.
23:27Um, and a lot of like what you know we talked about a lot in in the interview process is like how do you how do you create these like you know centralized PM type functions within the CIO organization that can partner with the rest of the business teams find the things that are really working and then build these like um foundations that other others can build on top of which is not too dissimilar from like how a systems organization would have functioned otherwise but the pace that you can you can um you can iterate on and then how you can empower others to build on top um is what is changing
23:57Is it centralized right now within the company? Do you or do you see that changing? Would eventually So, um, as is all things at Figma, I think we've grown faster than we've built, you know, the tools to support it. Um, and you know, it's on me to always empower the organization to build and then I'll I don't want to slow people down by creating the infrastructure on top of it. And so, I think we're chasing a little bit of that right now. Um I think with some teams we've done a better job um centralizing that and with other teams I think um you know they they built far far quicker and
24:27I think we're now having the process of saying okay how can we go and help? So um I think we're in the messy middle right now. I think that resonates with a lot of what we're hearing from uh our companies whether it's a go to market engineer, a talent engineer, this concept of the finance engineer. It's a decentralized um set of builders across teams. Um it could have different profiles. You know, some sometimes it's someone who has an engineering background on finance who's good at kind of thinking about what workflows need to be automated. Other
24:55times it's you borrowed someone from a a product engineer from another team um to go build. Um but it, you know, I think I think everyone's in this messy middle right now in terms of of what what that profile of person looks like.
25:09A lot of it reminds me of data science teams and how they partner with other parts of the organization as well. Um, and you as a data science partner are like, you know, the deeper you get into understanding the context of the team that you're working with, like the better I think you you operate as a as a as an individual. Um, so, you know, we've got data science individuals that are partnering with our product team.
25:30They build as much if not more product intuition than our than our product managers and engineers and they're viewed as part of that core team um that can go and help ideate and push change and they're just leveraging a different tool in order to enable that. Similarly, we've got folks on, you know, the data science side that are supporting our finance organization. Um, it's actually really interesting like the folks that I think have been devoted there actually come from accounting backgrounds, a couple of them. Uh, and they understand that like, hey, this stuff has got to be like really really hard and can't and
25:58and and always correct. Uh, they understand the nuances that we're describing on like checks and balances, what is a refund, what is it, you know, uncollectible, all that all that kind of um uh all that kind of nomenclature. And so, it actually enables them to be better builders. And similarly I could see that translate to like you know the you know the finance engineer that you're describing. You have some shared understanding of what is necessary. You could build that context over time but at least like you it's important to at least like build that major so that you can also go and push other people's frame of thinking as well. Who owns the definitions? Like the reason why I
26:27asking this question um especially we see it at an early stage where it could be a team of 20 people and just uh founders and no finance or business people and then eventually they bringing them on um but they're building uh definitions of key metrics that serve reporting that serve um investors and really business decisions um and eventually finance gets hired. um where the definitions how often would you it feels like in the past we used to revisit them maybe every couple of years where now because you can access the code or you can access the stripe logic
26:57much easier with AI has that changed much how often do you visit it I mean yeah my my team owns the outputs there um maybe I'm maybe I'm a little we're a little bit later than some of those early earlier businesses we have you know more controls in how in how we want to talk about it it's always been really important to me to have consistency in how we talk about our Um, you know, it's one of the things that I felt has always been empowering to like how I can show up for with our board, with our leadership team, with, you know, other folks broadly is that they know that what I'm putting out
27:26there is the same thing that I would have put out there a month ago. And, you know, the the historicals never change.
27:31And, you know, I'm I'm not trying to hide anything. Um, and I um, you know, I I I would just want to make sure that, you know, as we grow and as we give ourselves the ability to iterate and, you know, we constantly have this conversation on different different sets of disclosure as we go through earnings.
27:45We want to be consistent and we we we want to have the decisions that we make um be things that we can look back on and feel um uh feel good about um and have longevity uh further beyond. And so I I you know I think it's it's great it's people finding different ways to think about their business if it's empowering them to go and build their business better. Um but I do think that there's some value in consistency as well.
28:07Who is it on your team that's automated the most?
28:11What role? Uh I you know I I I I could say someone but I I'm assume that that someone else is probably coming up with something different really quickly. But you know very very honestly it's like all like individuals who are owning certain parts of our forecast model all the way through to you know uh individuals on our bisops team that are automating their day-to-day um sort of like you know how they're actually going and running um uh you know competitive benchmarking and pricing studies. So
28:40it's like uh I actually think that you know it's the it's the one uping of each other that actually enables you to create an organization that wants to better one another. Um so you know I I would feel uncomfortable saying there's one individual um because I truly do think that this is like a a team that's um trying to do this together.
28:57Do you think it tends to be people who are more expert like who have more expertise or experience in an area or is it really across the board and and how much is it coming from you and the role that you've automated yourself? Yeah, I I mean I think like early days it was helpful for me to go and show folks like hey if I if I'm coming and trying to do things in a different way like hey that should be your signal to you that you know my expectation is that you are as well. Um
29:25but I think you know in large part um I think the things that are important is have a solid understanding of the data sets that you're trying to pull from and the folks that have been able to move more quickly have like an understanding of like how these things are stitched together. Um, and when you understand things that and how they're architected, you can better think as like an architect of like, okay, how do I actually bridge these things in a way that's logical? Where do I know where the model is actually making a deterministic decision versus inferring?
29:52Um, and what tasks like is it okay for that to happen? What tasks is it not okay? Um, and I think then, you know, others kind of pick up and learn from that. Um but uh you know I I I do think that like the the rhythm that we've created, the showand tell rhythm, the you know the internal hackathons, this ability to bring in other experts. We do a lot of like I do a lot of conversations with other finance leaders and I try to bring in some of that intel internally so that it can get disseminated and I think my leaders are also doing that too which is really cool to see. Um I think everyone right now is trying to learn from one another which
30:22is which is really cool to see.
30:24Yeah. I feel like one of the common themes that coming up in my conversations with CFOs or uh directors of finance um or even just individual contributors is that they're finding it's really fun to be working again because before it was like you're reconciling something for 2 weeks or 3 weeks and you're closing the books for two or 3 weeks or continuously and and now it just feels like people are really turning their eyes towards the business and are able to surface insights business um and all of that. Uh there's just a lot of excitement around uh what's possible with AI, what's possible
30:54with vertical solutions. Um one of the things I'm I'm I'm curious to go back on the um buy uh scenario. Um I was talking to one of our hyper growth companies the other day and they said we just have to buy everything off the shelf. We're moving so fast. Do you ever feel that way? Like maybe a building is a longer path than just buying one of the solutions out there. I think for like the core systems of record solutions and like the things that like we just can't mess up like yes we're going and buying solutions for that. The areas where I think our team is having a lot of fun
31:24it's the it's kind of where you're going it's like the workflow automation like what are the areas where if I think about my day like I'm almost like not thinking um and how can I go and augment my day-to-day so I can you know go and re orchestrate how I want to spend my time. Um, I like I also, you know, fully fully agree with the sentiment that you're sharing that like the work has gotten, you know, the work the work is always going to be interesting, but the work has gotten more fun because you can explore things more quickly. Um, I've had folks on my team come up to me being
31:53like, "Holy like I actually am like having a ton of fun." And I actually think that like what the the policies that we created and the freedom we've given folks to explore are the reasons why like some folks are like, "I want to stay here. I really really like what I'm doing." Um, and I think, you know, I don't know if folks are actually treating uh access technology as like a recruiting vehicle as much as they could or should. Um, you know, I've at least started to do that in the recruiting conversation since I started to hear that from the team. Um, especially when you're trying to pull from folks who are not necessarily in technology. They're like, "Oh my gosh, this is like my my
32:23front end or my front entrance into like an entirely new world and if I'm empowered to learn, like this is really cool." Yeah. Like we talk about perks and benefits. You get X Y and Z if you come to work here. They might your former employee employer doesn't let you available and now you also get access to all these models or other tools.
32:49Yeah. Yeah. And I I think it's not just that, but then it's also like if you if you have folks understand what are other people building around them. Um and so much of what you're going to learn is through osmosis of what others have built to. And so if you get this feeling that like you're joining an organization that's not just saying that they're that they give access to these things, but they're actually building and that you can see it and you can feel it through the interview process. Um those are the places I'd gravitate to.
33:11So uh in 2020, my partner Angela and I wrote this piece on how CFOs needed modern tools. We had this pyramid diagram in there which was essentially say saying that the finance team was spending all their time on this like data reconciliation layer and at the top which was the smallest amount of time um was being spent on strategic finance or like strategy questions. Um, I'm curious if your time, you've, you know, actually seen your time, um, and your team's time unlock, not just on doing things they
33:40enjoy more, but like being more strategic or being able to weigh in on more decisions or like how has that changed your your role? I feel fortunate that like you know as I've grown within the company that like that has taken up more and more of my role and then as I then think about like what what is exciting for others like I also recognize like for me to have that there's benefit in me creating that same space for other people within the organization. Um so yes there are things that like we'll have to do as daily rhythms or weekly rhythms. Um but in the
34:10same breath like if I can get like take our take our we have a finance organization that's split in one of the one of the pillars is go to market. If I can take the team that's focused on our self-s served business and immediately get them out of reconciling last last week or last month or whatever it is and then very much more focused on what are the experiments we're running, what are the trends that we're seeing, where are the dollars that we should like what are the additional dollars that we should be spending on like that is way more engaging to them. Um, and I think they're actually able to do more of that now. Like it's it's like such it's some
34:38of the little things here matter so much. It's like how can I go and automate the creation of a set of materials that I know it's going to look and feel the exact same way and you know then focus my time on the annotation, the discovery, the understanding. Um, and we've seen we've seen that start to get a lot a lot faster. Um, and the quality of that improve and you know we even had one of like the I was actually the leader of that team get up and talk about like how he had gone and create a set of plugins to go and you know in Figma to go and idate on this stuff really quickly. Um, so you know, I I I
35:07would hope that my team is telling me that they're spending a growing share of that their time on that on that bucket of things. Um, but you're always going to have to chase, you know, the complexity in your business and managing the complexity with like how much time you're able to reserve for for the other pieces.
35:20Totally. One of the things that we're seeing in the CFO tools that we've invested in is the product is moving away from you know tracking workflow towards uh providing a result and then part of the product is the the the audit trail. So obviously finance needs to make sure everything's correct. You need to be able to uh track where you know how the the product came to um a particular reconciliation for example. Um but then it's done for you.
35:49So it's that balance of both having the audit trail and the um and the result.
35:54But we are definitely seeing our team spend more time doing things like running experiments and doing things that you used to take like a month-long research study. You had to pull in some from data science and like chase down a bunch of people over email, get everyone in a room. And now you can quickly iterate on this because you can um yeah, you can you have agents running in the background.
36:14And it could even it's even things on like the accounting side like flux analysis, right? like you know you're spending time as an accountant going through and trying to reviewing the GL accounts for like period over period. If you can leverage a tool and I know there's a whole bunch of tools now out there that give you that initial sort of like stab at what has changed that gives them like a set of things that they can go and chase. It gives them like an initial set of things and maybe it's right right away and I'd love for that to be more and more true. Um and then they focus their time elsewhere. And so I I I fully expect that like the spirit of where you're going like that that
36:41like um initial draft that initial sort of set of expectation that initial sort of idea of what to go and um and and pull the thread on um can can be surfaced uh via tools. It's kind of where I was going when I was talking about that T& piece, right? Like it was giving our team sets of threads that they can go and pull um and then us enough gut to go and and chase it too, right? you have the the data and then now the time to go, you know, address those second order questions and see what what's behind uh what's what's going on.
37:07Yeah. I was thinking how um when we grow up the war reconciliation was a very negative word is associated with a lot of bad memories and a lot of weeks and months spent on trying to chase something where now it's just something you do or maybe it's even a positive word because you can uh you can solve it much easier quicker with the modern tools and with AI and and find maybe not exactly where the errors are but just get there so much quicker and then you still need obviously to go talk to people as FPNA will always continue to be the the people the people discipline. Yeah,
37:37I I you know, it's one of those things I think I underplayed um uh or I under I I didn't realize how important communication um you know, relationship building uh your ability to, you know, go and influence was to this role. Um, you know, I I probably walked in feeling like I could, you know, be the smartest person in the room and figure it all out, but then I realized like, you know, it's a team sport regardless. And you can only go and affect so much change and you then really do have to go and um get other people to to be on the same
38:06page with you. And if you can do that effectively, I think you can be a really effective leader. But, um, you know, those are sort of like the I think the true skills. If I can you you're asking earlier about like you know, what am I screaming for? or if I if I can test and get a sense that you're like you you have this ability to build really solid followership, you have this ability to go and build trust with others, like that's so invaluable.
38:26That's a a good segue into what I wanted to chat about next, which is what do we think changes in the next 12 to 18 months uh for the team and the role and the function overall. Um I don't know if you guys have any points of view on on what might change. Maybe let's start off talking about how your team even is organized. Yeah, I mean I I would love to be in a spot where um you know we're only adding individuals if like the complexity of the business is growing
38:54faster than than the than the needs to support it. Um I do think that we're in a spot now where like you know a lot of the the regular um sort of business rhythm pieces. I think you can start to move in the reverse direction versus needing to add people in order to keep up with it. Um you know I think for us we're going to continue to fight it because we're you know adding new products, we're acquiring teams and businesses. we're, you know, continuing to evolve what what we're doing. And so it's always more, I think, in that world, the complexity there is still outpacing, you know, where where we're
39:23able to truly drive, you know, you know, complete efficiency. Um, but we're definitely like, um, we're definitely getting more efficient, you know, period over period.
39:33Do you think that the efficiency, do you think it'll like plateau like you've got the tools to do what you need to do or do you think that this more of these processes will just completely get automated end to end? I would hope that more and more can get completely automated. I think maybe I start with the pieces that are like truly deterministic and like how can I feed it with enough information so that I can feel that the output there um you know is completely completely trustworthy. Um I think getting something to that like
39:59audit ready output piece um uh for a for a system that's like truly business critical is extremely high. I think it's also going to be you know an interesting sort of conversation with the auditors on what gets them comfortable. Um, but I don't I don't I don't kind of take it out of the picture. I do think we'll get there over time. Um, I think, you know, like I was sharing, you know, as long as our business comp if our business complexity was like staying the same, I think we probably would wouldn't need the same number of people a year from now. Um, but uh, you know, I think we
40:28only get there because you're doing a better job of finding these places and rhythms where you can um you can build more consistency in in the way that you're operating.
40:35Is Excel under threat?
40:37No. It's like my love language, dude.
40:39Like I I I think in the same way I was describing how I um uh you know I still think that case study is so important because like you use it as a tool, right? Like you use it you use it to build intuition. A lot of the output people are still creating is a model. I mean that model could be you know you could host it somewhere could be something else but like I think you want this tool to give you this ability to refine your understanding um and play with things with your hands. And it's kind of like the magic that we see with Figma, right? Like we can give people the ability to go and, you know, have a have an initial stab in the first draft through, you know, prompting and through
41:09natural language, but like sometimes it's so much easier to go and riff and make changes um on your hand. Take a color wheel as an example. You've got like a a a screen that you that you've designed and you're like, "Hey, I want to go and change the background." You could sit there in an agent and prompt it, right? Like go change the background from red to green or I could take the color wheel and you get all different shades of it and you get the real feel of of what's going on. Similarly, I think about that with Excel. It's the way I build trust. way I build understanding. There may be something better in the future, but for me, I think it'd be really really hard to rip away from me.
41:37I also grew up in Excel and I still use Excel to like organize my thoughts. Like if I'm trying to run an analysis, I'll it's yeah, it's just even like the spatial um organization of it and and I think the the models aren't quite good enough to like create a forecast or a model quite yet, but I think that organization is still valuable. I don't know if you feel similarly.
42:00Totally. And I also think, you know, part of the things that I've tried to experiment with now is like how can I use um uh you know, how can I use how can I use one of these models to help me better understand the output that a team is putting together? Like if you give me like a, you know, a 20 tab model, it's going to be really challenging for me to go and like, you know, tab through and thumb through everything. But if I can, you know, pass that same context to through through a model to help me understand, you know, what are the things that really are are are the the needle movers or what are the areas that are more sensitive. um has actually
42:30given me like a better starting spot to go and to go and orchestrate and understand things which um I've actually found really really helpful and effective. The world we're living in is also challenging too. I was talking to university professor the other day and I was asking uh him how do they teach AI at the universities? Well, they don't right now. And one of the challenges that they they said they had a course and within the semester they've changed the syllabus several times because new models have dropped and they just have to completely change how they do it though. So they just sort of give up. So, they're going back to
42:59fundamentals again, teaching people analytical uh thinking and Excel and all of that because um I imagine you're in a similar world where if you were relying in too heavily, you're going to have to redo how you do your earnings.
43:11A lot has changed, but a lot hasn't changed. And I think maybe that's the spirit of where you're going. Um I, you know, I think that the core capabilities of what makes a great finance person are still there. Um how you actually you know leverage the tools at your disposal to make you know better better decisions is you know always going to be this like moving target for you. Um uh like the unlock that SQL was for me is you know now you know net a net net new unlock with like
43:39AI as a tool and capability um driver for me. So I you know I I think a great finance person um has longevity if they continue to adapt which you know we wrote this piece we said it was titled you need a new CFO the main point was that the mind there's a mindset shift so whether the individual actually has changed it's the that they have to think more automation first either build or buy the tools depending on what's what's available and what makes sense but it's really automation first um I'm curious if you
44:08think the profile either of you of a CFO in the next year or two is going to change in any way or to your point it's kind of the same the same dimensions that are important but uh maybe just the mindset continues to evolve.
44:21If I were to give advice to anyone it's like hire someone who feels a similar amount of business ownership and u wants to be the you know and operational rigor as you as the CEO does. Um they want to win. They want to win no matter which way possible. They have a set of tools that they're going to use and an understanding of a P&L to go and orchestrate that change. Um, but you truly want like a business leader versus like, you know, someone who um, you know, like I was sharing earlier, like a traffic cop, right? Like that
44:49that is just not and yes, I think there's a lot of there's a lot of things that you're going to need to have as like common place and solid understanding of like all the accounting fundamentals like you know your your your ability to actually go and orchestrate a planning process. But like I actually think the things that like make people truly unique in this role, it's like do you understand the business? Can you go and make make change happen? And could you get can you simplify the understanding of how the business model works so that others are all running in the same direction? Yeah, and I think it's true uh whether we're talking about a public company like Figma, we're talking about a seed stage
45:19or series A startup that's starting to scale their go to market and getting traction is that that's what the founders and the CEOs really need from finance is that extra business opinion opinion on the business um and insights that uh are easier to get but also still you go back to the basics like customers do you understand the customers do you understand the behaviors do you understand the metrics that come from that inputs outputs I That's that's will always be the same in what we expect.
45:47Yeah. Maybe the thing I'd add like I I I do think like you know creativity is important. Not like you know go and create like a fun funky set of metrics creative but like how can you actually go and think about your business in a slightly different light.
46:01Um and use that as like the way that you go and um drive change and be opinionated. Um and I you know I actually don't know how you know I try to do I try to do this. I don't know if I'm doing it as much as I, you know, could. Um, but if I come up with these ideas, if I can come up with different ways of thinking about things, I actually think that, um, I think some great ideas can come from your finance organization. And if you really set them up well and right, um, they can be they can be this like layer within your
46:31organization that's just as impactful.
46:34Um, and uh, really driving a lot of the internal strategy as well. I will say at the investor and board level we are seeing a much deeper set of analysis come through or the rapid iteration you know before it used to be oh we have all these questions at the board meeting or before and then it's a you know the team needs to run and cycle through that that process has just shortcircuited and hopefully is less painful finance team side um last question for you Ivon uh as our portfolio companies or just companies in
47:04general come to you and say where do I start in terms of automation What do you give them as advice?
47:09Uh I think it's kind of the same place where we always started. You start with the integrity of data. You have to figure out if you actually have a good access to data if you're tracking things. Many many of the times especially early stage companies they don't even track anything. And so you have to set that up and that often goes in uh against the priorities that maybe the first finance hire has like I got to close my book sometime got to send the board update all of that. Actually no like you can't even do that until you're on the solid foundation. You might sometimes have to set it. You might have to rebuild it. You might have to change
47:39things. We've had a number of people that came in especially now very quickly you can realize within several weeks that maybe the revenue is calculated um in a way that's not how it should be calculated for that business model.
47:49More more creative uh ARR at the early stage uh than I've ever seen before.
47:54Sure. For sure. The it's changing fast too. But um but it starts with data and then um based on that uh you really kind of create the reporting rigor. you create the metrics and then you create the story. I think one of the things too Premier was um especially you've been on that journey as a CFO like storytelling becomes a really really important once you have your eyes set on the IPO and you have to be all telling the same story. I feel like that has moved early to earlier and earlier stages because you expect to tell the story now in
48:23fundraising for Sirius A, Sirius B and um not just the story of what the product vision could be but story with the numbers and what the what the business could really be like and that's gotten easier but it's also gotten harder because I think a lot of people overthink that with AI and you know Ivon and I have been hosting these CFO and controller dinners for I don't know a couple years now and we saw this real market change I'd say be nine months ago when it went from people saying, "Oh, yeah, I'm generating this tax memo or
48:53this onboarding dock with AI to saying, okay, yeah, I can actually I'm doing the core uh the data reconciliation um and automating many of the workflows." And it's really been a step uh function change. And if anything um the leaders are saying, I'm I I need to do this otherwise I'll be perceived within my organization as uh behind everyone else. This goes back to your point around you winning the hackathons.
49:17Like finance was never the one that was going to be winning the automation hackathons, you know, I don't know, a couple years ago and it's it's pretty cool to see that's totally changed.
49:24Yeah, I I love this part of it. And I um I would we have like an internal maker week and it's our internally branded like hackathon and um you know I would always sit there early days and not really know how to participate and now I'm like if I had like a spare minute I think I would have a million different ideas and I'm sure my team has feels very similarly.
49:42Well Pier, thank you so much for joining us. This was really fun to talk about and uh understand directly from someone who's gone through this journey of automation over over your career and thanks Ivon and um this was a really fun conversation.
49:55Yeah, thanks for having me.