4:47[music] [music] Woah.
5:01Big day. What day is it today?
5:03What a time to be alive.
5:05[laughter] Everybody is hyped.
5:08Everyone is hyped today.
5:09What's the reason? Rune, tell them.
5:13Why is everyone hyped?
5:15Mainly because we've got the CEO of Mistral, the co-creator of Alpha [laughter] Go, now founder of Metis Reasoning.
5:24We've got the CEO of Napster.
5:27Uh, we've got Ian coming back in. Ian the Go, Ian over there at Ledger, chief go officer. I've just given him that title. Um, and we've got uh we've got John over at Skyfall Ventures coming in as well. It's a great lineup. It's a great show.
5:41Let's pull up the Elixir agenda. Let's go through it.
5:43Let's uh let's see what is happening.
5:46So, big show. We have Thor coming in, founder at Metis Reasoning. Uh he has released or come out of stealth, essentially, this morning, I believe, uh at 1 minute past 1:00 a.m. Uh to release Metis Reasoning. Uh Thor was a co-creator of AlphaGo previously at DeepMind, and he's come out with an absolute star-studded cast to launch Metis Reasoning. Their bet is simply that LLMs aren't the way forward.
6:13They just released a paper called The Age of Reasoning. It argues that today's LLM chatbots confidently give wrong or misleading answers to queries because they do not reason or check their answers. And the authors have set out a different architectural approach that solves AI hallucinations and uh reliability problems, which is uh which is great to hear. We've got Arthur Mensch coming in, co-founder and CEO at Mistral. Uh our lord our lord he coming.
6:39Um he's going to be coming in and breaking down his Build or Surrender article, giving us an update of where Mistral's at today. What does it mean to be sovereign in 2026? Are we in the singularity? Does he believe Does he subscribe to those views? And uh what is European ambition? Why do we Why do we uh why do we need to be bolder, be braver, think bigger? Uh we've got Ian Rogers coming in, Chief Human Agency Officer at Ledger. Uh I think third time on the show, second time on the show, pretty sure or maybe third time on the show. Um
7:09uh always a good chap to catch up with with with Ian. That's going to be fun.
7:11Ledger have just launched Ledger Atom, and it's a phone-shaped security device, essentially. So, we're going to be digging into what of the What is the release? What does that look like? Then we've got John Kester coming in, partner co-founder at SkyFort Ventures. A lot to talk about. He's going to be calling in from Oslo, um from Oslo Innovation Week, more specifically. But the conversation's going to be around why where Norway can win, AI, energy, logistics, robotics, maritime, physical AI, defense. Bunch of different stuff to get into with him. And then John Aconto,
7:40CEO at Napster. And yes, I know what you're thinking. It is that Napster. Um they're doing AI avatars, going to be talking about enterprise AI, enterprise ROI. Where is the gap? How are AI avatars going to play a part in the future, and what does that gap look like today? Um I tried.
7:58And uh it's a huge moment here at ETN, and maybe just a a brief sort of um second, you know, we started this show um about 11 and a half months ago properly, but you know, we really we we we took the dive to go five days a week only about three months ago, and uh we're incredibly thankful for our ecosystem, uh everyone that supports us, you know, to sit down with with CEOs of of Mistral, the co-creator of AlphaGo. It's uh it's a personal dream come true. It's
8:26a dream for everyone here at ETN, so we're incredibly excited to to get into that and get into the conversations that we've got lined up today. It's going to be a good show.
8:34It's also my dream to work with companies like Airwallex.
8:36Leave all that business banking behind with Airwallex.
8:40for the pace of modern business, multi-currency accounts, corporate cards, expense management, online payments, all in one platform. Where do you go? You get it airwallex.com to get all that good stuff. Um we love them over there. Let's uh talk about a little surprise that we have. We kind of hinted on it a little bit yesterday.
8:57But um Sam, do you want to go to the intern cam, please?
9:00Intern, intern Here he is.
9:05What about the other one? Let's get the other angle. Can we do that?
9:08Get Get him on the mic.
9:09Where's it coming Where's it coming from? WHO KNOWS?
9:14Look at all those guest announcements on the screen as well.
9:19Um Archie, please talk into the mic.
9:21Tell us about yourself.
9:22What's up, everyone? How's it going?
9:24[laughter] He's there.
9:26Who's [applause] there? Quick round [cheering] of applause.
9:31He's a natural. He's a natural. How are feeling? Welcome to ETN.
9:36Thank you. Thank you. Very, very excited. It's a big uh big second day in the studio for me.
9:42So, yeah, cannot wait to uh to get started.
9:44Amazing. Amazing. Well, thank you for joining us. Thank you for being here with us on such a a momentous day, a momentous occasion. Uh there will be a pull-up test.
9:53is this is the the shareholder value that he's already created.
9:56Yeah, like we're like Arthur Arthur said, "Hold on. Archie's in the studio?"
10:00Let's get in and do an interview now.
10:03No coincidence. [laughter] There is zero coincidence there.
10:05Yeah, no word of a lie.
10:08Uh Altman is just coming on because we hired Archie. Uh it just makes sense, you know, he started yesterday. Arthur's coming on today. Look, I I I'm not a data guy, but the data shows that Yeah, there's a trend line.
10:19Archie brings the Archie brings the swag.
10:21Uh he does. He does.
10:23He brings the Hotspur.
10:24Um you'd love to see it. Uh so much to discuss today. Yeah, so much to discuss. Um Altman, uh it was in the information this morning. Altman describes three end games for AI. Apparently, one including one where a single firm melts everyone else's GPUs.
10:42Um That one doesn't sound that good.
10:43What does that mean? We don't know.
10:45We're going to go put it up cuz it sounds like an error.
10:47So, he he he did this in an all hands. He did his famous all hands speech. The last The last time we got a inside look at a company all hands was the uh at OpenAI from Sam Altman was the code red.
11:00Uh yeah. Oh, no, no, no. No, no.
11:03Error. Um code red. Then we've also had the uh when what happened? It was it was about the IPOs and basically saying, you know, when Anthropic released the fact they were going to IPO, it was like, "Hey, we don't need to look at our competitor. We're kind of building on our own race."
11:21Do you remember that one?
11:22That was in an all hands.
11:24all hands as well. Okay.
11:25Yeah, it was all hands.
11:25I'm completely wrong.
11:28But that's okay. We'll get there.
11:29that's the the yeah, the the chronology of um the all hands from Open AI's. Historically, and like using the code red as an example, I think we we deliberated back and forth on that for quite a while where We discoursed, as they say.
11:43Uh you know, surely there's a better way to go about uh you know, maybe steadying the ship or just sort of, you know, maybe a quick walk around the desks. Hey guys, um just a quick one from me. Focus is just we're going to cut some of the side stuff we're doing, and let's just focus on the models for now. Instead of like better way to do it.
12:00Code red, call the press. Uh let everyone know there's a there's a there's a code red. Even the name code red, like connotations with danger.
12:09create the name. They they think he I think he issued a code red.
12:13code Yeah, yeah, but like a isn't like a code red is quit everything you're doing and focus on the most important thing. That is a thing within the tech industry. Um But code red means nothing. Google has done that before. Google has done that before. There has been code reds before. So, it's like But why is it a code red? Why shouldn't it be like Because because their main capacitor might get to AGI before them.
12:33Yeah, I just think code That's not a go to the desk and say, "Hey, by the way guys, we're going to have to No, I think I think all hands is fair, but code the term code red I feel has negative connotations, where it's like danger, bad, warning.
12:48Yeah, I think it was a war It was a warning signal. It was like, "Hey, uh we are struggling. We're going to have to sunset a bunch of product uh projects that we've been working on, and a bunch of products as well. Um we're going to go and focus only on the main mission. Code red, go go go."
13:04So, um I think it's warranted. I think it's warranted.
13:07Apparently, very quickly, uh Sora might be coming back.
13:12Yeah, and I'm going to we're going to talk about that as well.
13:14Okay. We can talk about the Let's talk about the Let's talk about the three different scenarios. So, Open AI CEO Sam Altman last week told employees about three proposals the industry has discussed for how to safety uh safely develop AI.
13:28A stark framing that comes just as the Trump administration set up its first system for policing super intelligence developers like open AI. So, one path involved developing an international organization similar to the International Atomic Energy Agency that would enforce safety standards, a scenario Altman appeared to support.
13:47Another option What do you think about that option?
13:49Um, I mean I like it personally.
13:53I think I Yeah, so lower down in the article I have more context on like on how they're going about it. He doesn't really like isn't actually like that I don't think from what the article then ensues later on. Despite the fact him saying he appeared to support it. I think it probably is needed, but then again adding another just another regulatory body just like committees Yeah, like We don't really have any to be honest.
14:22Is that going to help?
14:23What's the point like people say like it's selling a sandwich is more regulated than releasing a frontier AI model in the US right now.
14:30Is that what people say?
14:32Apparently. I mean, I need to look into that.
14:33I don't know if I like the food industry in the US is pretty unregulated to be honest.
14:36It's probably more dangerous to be fair.
14:38Eating a sandwich in the US.
14:39[laughter] Another option would involve merging all of the AI labs into a single body to develop new AI safely.
14:46That I think is just not the right way to go about it and I think wouldn't even happen anyway. Altman described a third scenario which he didn't prefer in which one AI developer would obtain enough economic power that it could deprive all other developers including those that could be dangerous of computing resources resources ensuring that they couldn't catch up these people said. Obviously, I think that one's terrible Altman said adding that he was including it for
15:14completeness according to a person with knowledge of the comment. Altman has said internally that there are too few viable proposals for how to introduce a so-called speed limit on developing um on the development of the technology. He also said uh he wanted humans to maintain control of the technology and to avoid scenarios in which power in the industry is too concentrated.
15:36This is This that's his recurring line, by the way. That's his recurring line.
15:40bring the humans back into the equation.
15:42Concentrated power seems to be the one thing that everyone's using right now as their like go-to stick. Um which I you know is is a great one. Um obviously in favor of that. I don't want one person to own everything.
15:55Cuz that's probably bad. Um but that seems to be the recurring Yeah.
16:00line that keep when you when we're going in through it whether it's I mean it's mainly Altman to be fair who's bringing that out like the guy, you know, when they unlocked the new character.
16:07Podcaster guy, I forget his name now. He interviewed Sam. We went over the interview. What was that with?
16:11New character unlocked.
16:13Yeah, unlocked in unlocked a new interviewer. Um he was saying the same thing then. He was like one of his main things was like I'm yeah, I'm incredibly worried about um centralization of power, centralization of like AI in one firm.
16:25One firm ruling them all, you know. Very Lord of the Rings-esque.
16:27Now, there's been a lot of uh there's been a lot of discourse over the past few weeks at least uh whether another regulatory body, another kind of uh you know, I guess institution is even needed. Um the uh the information kind of went a little bit into into whether that is actually needed in like an actual group. Uh is that even like the solution? It seems like, you know, for Altman uh at the big top of the article, it's like, "Hey, like you really supporting this. Um but uh but yeah, it's an interesting one. Uh they go on to say Altman's comments highlight the
16:55dilemma AI forces AI labs face in coordinating with rivals. For now, OpenAI, Google, and Anthropic are working on new US AI safety group, the standards authority for frontier AI, that uh they hope to launch by the end of the year or in 2027.
17:11The group will support independent evaluators embedded within the AI developer who would uh who would ensure uh safe practices and determine how developers should report safely safety and security instance. However, the companies have disagreed on a number of points including whether the new organization or an outside body should conduct safety and capability testing of new models. Anthropic has also begun to push its own safety agenda to US policy makers. The company recently pitched
17:41lawmakers on a draft bill that that which proposed allowing the department to stop an AI lab from training or using a model if the AI could cause more than a billion dollars in damages or the death or serious injury of more than 50 people. That's pretty scary. The proposed bill would also require AI labs AI labs to hire independently independent safety evaluators who would assess the models at least twice a year.
18:08Just final point, some AI leaders have argued that new regulations or testing focused agencies would only further entrench the incumbent developers namely Anthropic and OpenAI. Executives such as Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg and Nvidia CEO Huang said such regulations would impose like overly burdensome rules on up-and-coming developers a concept known as regulatory capture. And so like that's the main argument within
18:37all of these groups at the moment adding another body just doesn't really get there.
18:42Ooh, they don't like it.
18:44Um the But yes, so and then Anthropic has kind of gone and gone off and gone gone to go and do their you know their own thing.
18:50So that point on I think it's interesting for two reasons. One, it's a billion in damages or the death of a serious injury of more than 50 people. So they're kind of putting a monetary value on the death of 50 people which you could equate to a billion if they're saying it's like oh you know like both of these things would constitute for you know further action or further investigation or you know looking into it further.
19:20I want to know how So a billion dollars in damages yeah cool whatever but the death or serious injury of more than 50 people. How do you gauge like How do you directly if If one of those was Trump for example then like it would be one.
19:37You know but like why 50 people? Why is that the benchmark? How are those 50 Is it like You know how do you associate who out of those 50 is more valuable in in theory?
19:50Yeah I That's why I was saying it's a bit like You have to assume well you you have to assume that I think they're putting everyone on like a life is a life. So could be Trump, could be someone else, could be someone in the general population.
20:01it was one and it was Trump they they wouldn't be like oh 49 more to go. Like don't worry about that one. Like few that was a close one. Didn't you know or if it was 49 and they wouldn't So I do feel that's a bit of a weird It's quite weird I think.
20:16going to be counting. They're not going to be counting the number of But if they've put a number they have to right? Like they've said specifically said it's seriously injury of more than 50 people. They're like I find it weird how they're committing to I think I think the fact that they're even committing to a unit especially like not even just one life.
20:35I think it's like hey like yeah we can get to a 50 person threshold before things get serious and we you know put the plan into action.
20:43Oh that's wouldn't I wouldn't have included a number. I would have just said like death or serious injury of people.
20:48Yeah I wouldn't give it a specific number cuz 25 I'm absolutely fine.
20:53[laughter] It makes no sense in my mind when I when I read that.
20:56And I don't think I mean this did go viral that put that specific passage did the rounds on Yeah we had Andrew Curran in in Curran was was was getting stuck in with it. Um but I just can't imagine how they got to that number or how they worked that out or Honestly, I don't think they I don't think they have even Yeah, thought about it.
21:17Yeah, I don't think so.
21:18It was hidden quite deep in the reports while I remember Andrew saying it was kind of like, "Huh, just found this."
21:26Um that was weird. They also explained like on A A I A E A or CERN or other leaders at OpenAI have been publicly pushing publicly for a body modeled on the International Atomic Energy Agency for years. I think I remember Musk as well has asked for some uh or called for something similar to this in in in years gone by. Now, obviously a little bit less. Um but they say in May 2023, Altman along with OpenAI co-founder Greg Brockman um published a blog post arguing that the industry would likely need something
21:56like an I A E A for super intelligence efforts that would be able to inspect systems, require audits, and track computing energy usage. Um the body would require international cooperation from all countries that are developing state-of-the-art models including China.
22:11Uh last month, Chinese President Xi Jinping acknowledged the dangers of AI saying that China and the US have the capability and responsibility to develop and manage AI for good and ensure that the development of AI is always under human control and serves the well-being of the people. It is another example of how much we're like comparing the the race, right? The arms race, nuclear arms race like They're looking at it in the same Okay, that was potentially world-ending technology. Um it basically resulted in a number of
22:40individual world leaders coming around and saying, "Yeah, we're cool with this.
22:43Let's all shake hands and let's all agree on stuff." Um but for some reason, I just don't feel it's Well, look, it has to be it has to be centralized somewhere, right?
22:54Are they going to have access to uh you know, are trying to give going to give access to uh you know, the leading test like testing facility or regulator that's based in the US. No, probably not. Um I mean that's the same thing that happened with the nuclear thing.
23:08Everyone was like And I think look like that's the argument from from uh Zuck and and and Jensen, right? Where it's like all you're going to do by adding another regulatory body, regardless of where it is in the world, regardless of who the stakeholders are, cuz they have to be like it has to be a centralized system.
23:23Um, because there has you know, you can say yeah like they're they're third-party evaluators, uh but realistically like you know, that that there's going to be some form of um I don't want to say espionage, but they're going to be you know, that the stakes are so high that you have to kind of play uh you know, play the game.
23:40Um, and so they can't necessarily be third-party. Uh, who knows where they're from, right? Um, and and what the agenda is for them. And so uh you know, I back what Jensen and and Zuck are saying where it's like look like adding another regulatory body isn't going to help.
23:54It's just going to entrench the problem deeper. Um, where you're going to have to go and evaluate the evaluators and you have to go and figure out you know, it just adds another you know, problem to the problem. Um, I think if you all act in act independently and just create some form of you know, I guess create uh some
24:19further negative uh consequences on certain uh on certain behaviors within models and you know, if a lab releases said model and these certain threshold are hit within that, whether that's like you know, the death of said people or uh you know, whatever creates a a billion dollars in in in uh in damages that's then you know, uh you're then liable to some form of uh you know, some some some form of repercussion.
24:49Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
24:51I think I think that's like a better way to go about it. Uh, obviously you know, OpenAI and and and Anthropic are are kind of pushing for some form of regulatory you know, body or whatever it is. And if they think that's great, then great. But then again, you open up the the conversation of regulatory capture. They've obviously said that they are trying to minimize the the potential for regulatory capture.
25:17But I think it's just a Jensen and Zuck are clearly seeing straight through this. But then again, it's an it's an agenda thing, right?
25:25The two top lab leaders obviously want more regulation.
25:30The two well, Zuck, who isn't necessarily a lab leader, he he isn't, you know, owning the two one of the two best. Is obviously going to not want a regulatory body. So, we can have to take it with a pinch of salt, right?
25:45Cuz he had a he did an interview a couple weeks back. I think 2 weeks ago. And they touch on a lot of this stuff.
25:52And like his opinion was and he quoted Charlie Munger in the interview. Basically saying like um Show me the incentives and I'll show you the results, basically. Which I thought was really interesting.
26:02They go on to the second path.
26:05Altman has described that second path as, and I love the name, the Demis plan. A reference to a prior proposal from Demis Hassabis about a decade ago. He proposed creating an organization similar to CERN, the particle physics lab. Altman's version of the Hassabis proposal, major AI firms would effectively merge into or produce work through a single entity that will provide new models to countries that work with it. Cannot see this happening.
26:35Just purely like I just can't see them, let alone like, you know, actually cooperating and working together and even coming to a sit-down. But I just can't imagine Musk, Altman, Dario, you know, in the same room working together. It just wouldn't work.
26:51Their egos, their personalities is like too big of a clash. Like I just can't never see that actually doing anything fruitful.
26:56Then you have the you have the the level of the state as well impacted within that. So you have the potential of the the Chinese you know wanting to get into a conversation like that or wanting to make sure they're not in that conversation. So like you just can't win.
27:16We got to be there. We're we're we're frontier right now. We've got some good AI tools internally.
27:20We do. You want to talk about the Eliza plan? This is the third option, the most scary option. It's a reference to Eliza Yudkowsky, a well-known AI safety theorist and advocate with ties to key members of Anthropic. Yudkowsky has long argued that advanced AI systems pose an existential risk to humanity. In a blog post in 2022, that [snorts] whoever develops superintelligence first will need to use it to perform a pivotal act, an intervention that would prevent other people and organizations from developing dangerous superintelligence. One
27:50intervention could involve destroying the AI chips that other developers use. Altman said this moment could occur when an AI developer attains RSI. The simple to improve itself and it gets the resulting economic might the resulting economic might to melt everyone else's GPUs. Which obviously is not a path that anyone wants to go down and they kind of reiterate Altman's message characterized this path as an attempt to centralize and control advanced AI under a single company.
28:23A future that Altman has explicitly said he did not want.
28:28So yeah and given Yudkowsky's connections to Anthropic, the comment was viewed as a subtle dig at Anthropic said one of the people with knowledge of it. I do like how whenever these guys are in interviews, they will never use the names of other labs. It would always be like some others or like other labs or like other leaders think that. They will never quick as they as soon as they do it it's like headline news Sam Altman
28:57scenario is but it's just it's just kind of funny.
29:01And I watched the I we never talked we never spoke about this. I watched the AI doc the other day on Netflix. It was all right. It was pretty good. So the guy You said to me you didn't you Well, it was a bit pointless, right? It was it was it was One I kind of feel like it's already outdated. Two I thought it was more of a What will the general pop What will the general population think of it? Do you think?
29:28One I think it's done very badly in the box office anyway or whatever like the the the They really the release. I think it's done pretty badly, yeah.
29:35I mean like like if you're in the general population like what are you going to care?
29:39Yeah, I think that their reaction would be negative towards AI from it.
29:42See that's the thing you're you're going to have a different you're going to have a different lens to them.
29:46Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:47And I think the whole reason isn't to like cater to you it's to cater to a To the to the yeah to the masses. I think the director of it does a good So he he enters it as a as a bit of a doomer basically. And then towards the end he feels that like he has been pulled out of the doomer. He's very positive about it.
30:08about it but he is he is still scared and does a good work of like um like chronicling his journey through um cuz it it it takes him like multiple years to film it basically. Um and at the start he's like he has a kid on the way and that's like a core premise he's worried about bringing the kid into the world and then by the end of it he's actually quite excited when he sits down with some with some like accelerationists and uh they kind of educate him on on on on the benefits of AI and all the good it can bring. Um so they do a good job of getting a nice
30:38balance of like it's not just like a doomer film.
30:40It get like a lot of like good people who like Bezos in it, which is hilarious. I had no Oh, yeah. I remember.
30:45I was just talking to my mate and I was like, "That's Bezos."
30:48[laughter] Who the hell is Bezos? I was like, "Bezos, Jesus."
30:52He asked me, "Do you mean Jeff Bezos?"
30:54Um As you would. As you would. As you would.
30:56Yeah, it was a it was a fair it was a fair question. Fair question. Uh he does really well in it. He's like really he does he does incredibly well. Um but they Shout out to Bezos.
31:07Uh Zuck declined to comment.
31:11And then Musk said he would and then uh didn't turn up. Uh basically.
31:17[laughter] Uh which is quite a joke.
31:20yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought it was quite funny.
31:21Okay, well, I'm going to have to watch that. Uh it's going to be interesting.
31:23It's like worth a watch. It's not like Yeah, yeah.
31:25I wouldn't like Well, I texted you you said, "I'm watching the AI doc." And I was like, "Oh, how is it?" And I think you just said Yeah, it was It's okay.
31:32And I was like I I was pretty let I think I then just said, "Yeah, fair all right." And then we never spoke about it again. Um anyway, let me tell you about I quit quickly. The intelligence platform for out of home advertising. Plan smarter by faster measure everything. One platform connecting you to 1,700 media partners across 30 countries. Go to adquick.com.
31:49[music] Um let's move on to uh just we don't have this on the thing, but I really I should have put this in today, but yeah, they're bringing Sora back.
31:57Oh, yes. Okay, talk about this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
31:59Sora. So, on the Code Red, Sora was the first to go. When it releases everyone was like, "Why the hell is this a thing?"
32:06And I realized today I kind of feel like we passed the AI image {slash} video Turing test. And no one really cared. I feel like it I feel like we're there. Like I now can't um like discern whether or not a video is purely AI or not.
32:22Uh it's um it's uh And and the reference I'll give like so, did you see in the riots there's the Pink Panther rioter?
32:31He was dressed up as the Pink Panther.
32:35Yeah, it's come out in the BBC. A lot of I'm not sure if like there was I think there was one Come out in the BBC.
32:40I think there's one still that was legit, but all the other ones are full AI. And there's some ones that I saw that I was like I fully believe this. Um which is which is which is crazy. And that's when I kind of realized I was like, "Oh, I have been fooled. I am the fool."
32:54That's insane. That's insane.
32:55Uh which I thought was mad cuz they did look all, you know, pretty real. Um but check yeah, BBC have a thing on it. Um but it's in like the the was There was someone um Yeah, there was someone dressed up as a Pink Panther in one of the images, but basically all the ones that have come out are fake.
33:14Okay, yeah, fine. I can see the video I can understand the video being fake, but the the photos look real.
33:20They're fake. They are.
33:23They they are just just on that one. So, the reason they look so real is because a lot of them are taken from actual pictures of protesters or in some cases PSG fans from like a year ago or something like that. And then the only thing that's been changed is the person being grabbed by the police for example into a Pink Panther.
33:41Those PSG fans, they're up to no good again. Their usual no good tricks and their deep fakes.
33:47Um but that's what about Sora. Um so, it's it's it's there's plans to revive it. Um Uh they say, "Remember OpenAI's video model Sora and all the great Sam Altman memes that came from it earlier this year? ChatGPT maker canned both the model and the TikTok live app uh it powered as part of a broader calling of server-intensive side projects. We saw where they were like, "Hey, we're not doing these anymore. We're going full speed ahead on the models." They had fallen behind a little bit and then kind of regained their lead. Um but there is
34:15a chance for all those Sora fans out there who think, "I need more AI videos in my life." There is a chance that the version of Sora is coming back from the dead. Um They say a stealthy startup developing AI video for filmmakers, which we revealed last month, is in talks with Open AI to access Sora, tweak it, and sell the software or other services using it, according to a person who's familiar with the talks. Hollywood mogul Jeffrey Katzenberg, former Sora research lead Bill Peebles, and former Dropbox
34:45CFO Sujay Jaswa co-founded the startup in recent months. Um so they're looking to basically acquire everything, remodel it, and run it. So not an Open AI thing. Okay. Uh not clear whether startup will get access to Sora weights, the settings that determine the model, and how it responds to queries, but if the deal were to go through, the startup would get deeper of access to the model to heavily customize it.
35:07Um interesting. Okay, so so this isn't going to be under the Open AI umbrella.
35:11No. No, no, no. But Open AI will receive equity in the new startup if the deal goes ahead.
35:17Um and uh How early are the talks?
35:20Um Not looking for a time scale. I'm just saying, did they say early in early talks or it is like No mention, but it sounds like there's a team formed around new company. Uh it's been co-founded in recent months.
35:33I mean, look, I did I I if unless Where are they going to Where are they going to get the compute from?
35:39Probably from Open AI.
35:40Wasn't that the main reason why they sunset? Obviously, focus as well, but Yeah, they were like compute constrained.
35:45The team the team focused, but then again, yeah, it's the compute. I think that was the that was the DeepMind thing as well, where it's like look like uh all of the frontier researchers building on, you know, science and everything else, that was like their push, and then obviously uh you know, the the the Google team were like, "Hey, like we also need the compute we we need the compute to go and generate cash, basically, uh to go and generate some some form of revenue from this uh technology." And uh they were each one was compute constrained unless
36:12the other one stopped. Um and so And so that that was, you know, obviously very high-level, that's kind of what happened. I assume this is going to be the same thing, no? Um they must have figured out how to how to go and find more compute.
36:24Well, yeah, it says was "Well, if it's separate entity, I don't think they have to like worry about like they won't be focused too much on um But where they going to get They're going to go and uh get it like from somewhere else?
36:34Yeah, yeah, I think they'll, you know, they'll just go and probably raise money and spend it all on getting compute and growing [clears throat] it out.
36:40But uh yeah, for just a quick one, thought it was cool. If uh for all you super Sora fans out there, don't worry. You can still watch AI slop.
36:50I know you guys have been gagging for it. So, it's coming back. I personally uh I don't care.
36:56super pumped about uh you know, getting more AI slop on my timeline, in my brain. I don't think I'm slopped out enough right now. I could do with some more slop. And uh yeah, boy golly, we're getting it, which is which is, you know, great great sign. Exactly what we need right now.
37:13So, I'm super happy.
37:15Uh let me tell you about Chargebee.
37:16Chargebee is the billing and monetization infrastructure built for the AI era. Scale PP, credits, complex enterprise contracts, and all other modern commercial contracts, all in one system. Go to chargebee.com. Um let's uh let's talk about uh Eric Schmidt um and his 1% of Anthropic.
37:34Um This is This obviously did the rounds on the timeline. Um it was first kind of picked up by Bloomberg, I believe. Um It goes, "The former Google chief executive uh officer, obviously Eric Schmidt, owns around 1% of Anthropic, thanks to his early investment in the startup, according to people familiar with the matter, setting him up for one of the largest individual windfalls from the company's imminent public market debut.
37:57Now, um [snorts] this sparked some huge interest in uh the way that Anthropic went through their funding journey in terms of not uh it was like basically all super angels until until later later down the line. I'm going to say series A. Uh there's a bunch of uh bunch of tweets around this. Um and Eric Schmidt is one of them. Um uh Schmidt invested tens of millions of dollars in Anthropic's series A funding round according to people from uh according to people who asked not to be identified because they weren't
38:27authorized to discuss private matters. It's unclear if he has sold any part of his stake since the initial investment. Anthropic's highly anticipated IPO is set to generate massive windfalls for its employees and investors. The startups co-founders are already worth $8 billion each based on its last funding round.
38:46When Schmidt, who's 71, made his first bet on Anthropic in 2021, it was valued at $461 million. week that a fair valuation for the company is in the $1.8 to $2 trillion dollar bull mark. The end of that range would value Anthropic at more than 4,300 times its series A funding round.
39:07Very good. Very good markup.
39:09At the value the Anthropic stake would boost Schmidt's net worth by 1/3 to nearly $80 billion according to Bloomberg's Wealth [snorts] Even using Anthropic's most recent valuation of as we talked about yesterday, $965 billion, Schmidt adds nearly $10 billion to his existing $57.5 billion. So the dude's set to make an absolute yeah, an absolute wedge of cheese, which is always good.
39:37I want to pull up some tweets about about what's happened here and and the kind of story behind it. So Natasha on the timeline kind of broke this and it obviously did the rounds. Natasha said one of the more interesting things about Anthropic's cap table is until its series C, its funding rounds were dominated by super angels and nonprofits.
39:59So here's the scoop with with with Tom obviously announced it and then Trung Phan then came on the timeline and said Eric Schmidt owns 1% of Anthropic.
40:10Darius' wife, who Schmidt used to date, introduced him to Anthropic. Schmidt's peak ownership of Google was 5%, which is now 1%. He got that Google CEO job after going to Burning Man with Larry Page and his That's an all timer right [laughter] there. That deserves a quick It's not the golf course How cool is that, right?
40:29Um then someone came in and said uh well over heard on Wall Street said your one Burning Man away from changing your life. So what do you need to go? Go to Burning Man and you can potentially go and start Google and uh get into get into a company like Anthropic early days.
40:44Pretty pretty interesting.
40:45Pretty good returns. I don't know how much a 1,300% ticket costs but uh but maybe it's like Someone could do the maths there.
40:52Maybe maybe you can I can't do public math but maybe someone can break that down. Um I do so her saying that um Y'all put it out.
40:59That's right. I forget her name. Natasha uh saying that um the yeah until series C funding rounds dominated by super angels and non-profits. I'm surprised it's that long. Like I would assume pre-seed to Yeah but think about they're like a three four year old company.
41:13Yeah yeah which is wild. Yeah.
41:15Yeah which is wild. But like I I think it's the same for five years but a bunch of uh well DeepMind in particular and also OpenAI was dominated just by super angels and like huge like not non-profits but um like philanthropists I think like Reid Hoffman put like a bill into I think uh DeepMind really early on which at the time was like 1/3 of his net worth.
41:37Which is like you know For any like investment that's insane, right? Imagine putting 1/3 of your net worth into a single investment.
41:45It's pretty risk on but obviously you know great great back from the fellow but um like that's just a wild a wild uh amount of cash. Um so I'm not like yeah I'm surprised it all the way to series C but I guess you know success of OpenAI like people are already looking for this type of thing. Okay they've maybe proven out that you can monetize this. Um let's let's get into the next one as fast as possible.
42:07Um got introduced you know by Zach.
42:10Wait went yeah met the ex for a coffee.
42:12[sighs] Went to be like Hey, I'm actually my husband now is starting this company to you know, is this interesting? He's like oh yeah, actually maybe yeah.
42:21Yeah, well love to do that. I'm like maybe that's a great investment strat. I should call up all my exes.
42:26[laughter] See what their current husbands or boyfriends See what they're doing and maybe they're starting starting a new AI lab.
42:32[laughter] Well, that's maybe there's alpha there.
42:35It's slightly contrarian, but that's where you make the money. Maybe I should do that. Go on a massive email or something.
42:40I can definitely back that not that many people will be doing that strategy.
42:44I don't yeah, well apart from all the LP all the LPs will be like What's your tell tell us about your thesis. What's the thesis?
42:50So, I have a few ex-girlfriends and I know their boyfriends and their husbands very well. I want to I want to I want to reach out to them. I want to start investing.
43:00So We can go on to the next segment. I know we have our first guest coming in slightly earlier.
43:07go to the highlights and timeline?
43:09Let's go check out what the timeline's doing. Let's just see what everyone's doing. This one is a personal favorite of mine. It's doing the rounds at the moment. The University of Chicago, some of the students are protesting at the CME demanding an end to the federal ban on onion futures. This is student-led group for our futures is rallying to call for a repeal of the 1958 onion futures act.
43:52Doesn't look quite as crazy as Paris though.
43:55But a good cause here.
44:04Great work over there. So, that was kind of kind of reminds me of a [laughter] So, I can figure like I know that uh hold on. Oh, sorry. I've switched. I'm just getting up the future the the ban. Um the ban so, in 1955, traders Vincent Cosuga and Sam Siegel accumulated about 98% of Chicago's onion supply.
44:30And they basically like created a monopoly of onions in Chicago. And then after building the monopoly, they basically shorted the market and then just dumped their whole inventory all at once, completely crashing the price. And a 50-lb bag of onions went from $2.75 down to 10 cents. So, the the bag that the onions were held in were worth more than the onions at That's insane.
44:58Um and and yeah, and then obviously like this was not cool. This was just genuine market manipulation. So, they rolled out a ban on trading onion futures. But it's never been revisited. Like it's never For some reason, they just haven't repealed it. So, obviously great cause these guys on the front lines trying to repeal a ban on onion futures.
45:22Um and and I don't think there's any reason why people shouldn't listen to them, to be quite honest. I think Yeah, I think the I think that costume kind of says it all. And they should Well, they yeah, they care. They care, which is good to see. You can tell by the costumes. Um do you know do do you know the story of chocolate finger?
45:40It's uh Anthony Ward, he was was nicknamed chocolate finger or choc finger. Um he's a British commodities trader or was. And the co-founder of London-based hedge fund and trading firm Armajaro. They were in the FT a while ago.
45:56I can't remember why. But anyway, 2000 So, basically the story goes this is quite a while ago, but in 2010, um July 2010, Ward made international headlines by purchasing 240,000 to 241,000 tons of cocoa beans through Armajaro for roughly 658 million pounds, which is about a billion dollars. Um [snorts] that single purchase represented 7% of annual global cacao production, enough to make roughly 5.3 billion chocolate
46:24bars, and gave Armajaro control over the vast proportion of exchange monitored stocks. The price surged. The massive trade uh pushed cacao prices to a 33-year high. Industry groups, including the German Cacao Trade Association, accused him of artificially manipulating the the market and creating a supply squeeze.
46:44Critics noted that Western Africa cacao farmers saw no financial benefit for the price spike. Um then he was nicknamed Chocolate Finger, um which obviously is the play on the James Bond uh Goldfinger. Um [laughter] Armajaro Armajaro's core trading and asset operations shifted over the years, and the firm ultimately closed its doors around 2017, changing its industry landscapes in the rise of automated trading. Um so yeah, that's uh that's the tale. Um there's a really good medium article about genuine like story
47:13of Chocolate Fingers.
47:16Super high-level. I mean, yeah, he he's he's been in the news previously uh a little bit later in on his life for not some very good things. So he's less of a legend.
47:25[laughter] I withdraw my statement.
47:26That story is quite legendary, let's say. Um and uh not?
47:31But go and read the medium article. It's super interesting. Uh I think it It wasn't a gray want to say it was a gray area. I mean, look, like uh I'm not a fund manager. I I don't know this stuff. So uh I don't want to say whether it was illegal or not, but like I assume it was probably a gray area. Um it was probably like hey, you can't go and Well, I guess look, if the market's small enough and you have the funds to go and buy it and you're willing to put almost 700 million pounds into into one trade, I guess that's their game.
47:58If it's like within the confines Because like you can do things like a hostile takeover. You can go and buy a you know a public stock and you can go and rally like you can go and buy more of the public stock to go and take control of the company if you want to. That's not illegal, I don't think. So If it's in the confines of the game, I'd say like fair play.
48:20We'll do some We'll do some research. We'll do some research.
48:21Obviously there's a moral question about There's there's a really good medium article. Go read the medium medium article. Search Search in I don't know chocolate finger Probably come up with that actually.
48:31No. No, cuz obviously well if you're in the UK you're going to get chocolate fingers. That's like the name of the confectionery. So maybe it's search up chocolate finger and search up Armajaro Holdings and you'll get it up. It's very interesting.
48:44Incredibly interesting. Sorry, that was a bit of a tangent.
48:46No, that's a great one.
48:47[laughter] This one here so Lance Oppenheim says he bribed Robert Pattinson up a screen up.
48:53Um uh Lance Oppenheim says he bribed Robert Pattinson in starring in Prime Time by sending him 200 canisters of Zin with a letter saying it's good. Dear Chris Hansen Rob at the time was grappling with a Zin addiction.
49:08[laughter] So he's blackmailed him using his own personal addiction to to get him to star in the film and it looks like it was it was successful.
49:17That is European style right there.
49:19Good to know that the strategies from you know the old days of Hollywood are still alive and well in terms of getting someone to come in. Anyway, we have our first guest coming in. We have Thor coming in the founder of Metis Reasoning. They're just coming off the back of a fresh launch and a brand new research paper.
49:33Very excited and absolute honor to have Thor in the building. Can't wait to have a conversation. Hello Thor, how are you sir?
49:38Hello, very well. Calling from Berlin, GTC.
49:43How is it over there?
49:45Yeah, it's it's wonderful. Fantastic.
49:48You know, I studied in Berlin so for me it's extra special to be back here.
49:52Dude, very nice. A full a full circle moment. And what a what a momentous day uh for you as well to be back here where you studied. I mean, you've got two announcements kind of like essentially coming out of stealth, but also um the paper has been published as well. Uh would love to hear from you Matt's reasoning. What is the company about?
50:11And then I'd love to ask some questions about the paper and what you guys are working on.
50:15Yes, fantastic. Yeah, we have identified reasoning as still being the big open problem in AI. And by reasoning, we really mean reasoning according to the scientific method, you know, the scientific method on steroids, if you like. And uh you know, you might wonder what's the current problem, but um you know, really uh large language models have no notion of truth.
50:38They just have a notion of what plausibly comes next, you know, the next token, the next word, and so on. And we believe that you need to really um uh uh have a new architecture in order to really do real reasoning, an architecture that keeps a record of what it knows, but also what it doesn't know.
50:58So that you can really advance uh um your reasoning, um increase your knowledge, and also have a record of how exactly that came about and why you give the answers that you give. And that's what Matt's reasoning is all about.
51:13Okay, really cool. There there are multiple parallels or multiple lines of of of conversation I'd love to go off the back of this. One being like Luke and I were just chatting the other day around um like the Millennium Stokes prizes and you know, those getting solved and then OpenAI releasing these new set of proofs and they're kind of throwing a lot of resources at it. Um something that we were struggling with to understand on the show that like yes, that's a great achievement, um but on like the reasoning element or like how we actually got to those um uh breakthroughs like you know, I'm I'm kind of sensing maybe like that's an
51:41example of how the problem of LLMs, if we were to extrapolate it further into other areas of of research and understanding. Like, is that like um is that one of the problems in itself?
51:51Like, we don't really we we have the proof, we have the result, but we don't really know how we got there. I can maybe, you know, think about the problems of that that in the future that we might come across if we sort of There's like a gap of knowledge that we're moving into for for generations to come.
52:06Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, that is a problem. I mean, imagine you have a proof of an important theorem, but nobody understands it.
52:12[laughter] So, uh that would be a bit of a tragedy. Um but the other problem, of course, is that all of those uh successes uh have been had in highly verifiable domains.
52:23You know, mathematics, coding, they're verifiable because you can see once you have a solution, you can check if it's correct. And that's super good for, you know, reinforcement learning and methods that rely on that. But if you go out into the real world, the complex world, the open world, things are just not like that, right? You have a lot of uncertainty, you have a lot of complexity, and um you have this kind of open um open world properties. And in in those
52:53circumstances, there there are other things you need to do. You need to make sure that you have a sound reasoning process that also takes into account uncertainty in the right way. And you need to make sure that once you've reasoned through an important problem, uh people can really follow how the system arrived at that solution.
53:12Just imagine um medical applications. If there was uh an AI system that decided about an important surgery to be done on you, wouldn't you want to be able to go back and understand exactly how the system arrived at the decision that that procedure was necessary?
53:30Yeah. I don't I I'd love to understand uh cuz at the moment uh I don't know I'm chatbots, you know, if if they are, you know, being, I guess, misleading or or they they've hallucinated in some way, And when they give a misleading answer, they're still incredibly confident with that answer. And I'd love to understand what is the like um uh the architectural approach that you guys are changing to be able to like, you know, I guess solve AI hallucinations.
53:55Like, what does that even look like?
53:57Yeah, that's a that's a great question.
53:58So, um what we call the um original sin of the um architecture of the transformer architecture and LLMs is that uh really the uh the well knowledge that the model has and the procedure by which it manipulates that knowledge are all baked into the weights. So, basically, if I gave you uh 1 trillion parameters of uh of a modern LLM, there's no way for you to extract these things. You cannot even
54:27find out what's in there other than through prompting.
54:30And so, the fundamental architectural decision that we've made is to separate the knowledge that the model operates on and the reasoning process. And the reasoning process now operates on that model on that knowledge. And this separation unlocks a lot of positive things. For example, if you explicitly represent the knowledge, then you can inspect it and you can edit it and you can uh do access controls on it. You
54:59know, all the good things that we knew are good from databases.
55:04With large language models, they're lost and we want to bring them back in that sense.
55:08Yeah. If you have And that's Sorry, go on. Please go.
55:11Sorry, and then on the other side, you have the reasoning process. And when you isolate that and it operates on the knowledge, you can now improve the reasoning process uh in isolation and really make it better. And so, you get these two axes of scaling, one on the knowledge and one on the reasoning capability.
55:27Right. And then in terms of uh you know, if we kind of zoom back then and look at, you know, uh hitting AGI or whatever we we we you know, what what what whatever that might look like in our RSI. um Why is this never why is this architecture not being kind of done before and what what what needed to happen for this to to kind of be in the right place to to actually happen to kind of you know, separate those two sides and allow them to kind of develop you know, I guess
55:57Yeah, I mean funny that you ask you know, 10 years ago I was part of the the AlphaGo team.
56:05And if you remember you know, that was the system that played the game of Go and beat the strongest player at the time Lee Sedol in this in this legendary match in Seoul. And AlphaGo had these two aspects of the architecture. You know, it had neural networks that made predictions and judgments like how good is this Go position or what how good is this move?
56:28And it had the other side also namely the game tree search. You know, it had a structure that exactly stored what the system already knew what it had yet to explore and so on. And it was really these two systems combined that produced for example the legendary move 37 that surprised everyone. Right? It wasn't one part of the architecture alone and you can think of ChatGPT and that development as just the development on
56:57the neural network side.
56:59But the the actual reasoning side of AlphaGo was discarded was left behind to degree. And one way to understand what we're doing at Meta Reasoning is we're bringing that back. You know, we believe that this explicit reasoning on an explicit representation of what the system believes about the world is necessary to do true reasoning.
57:20I have to ask what was it like witnessing move 37 for the first time? What was what was going through your head? Like how was the response to that because it is you know, a legendary sort of pivotal moment in the in all of the human vs. AI debates.
57:36Like, what what was that like as a as a moment?
57:39Yeah, you know, I was sitting in the audience. Uh the commentators were up front discussing the moves. And then, you know, uh Michael Redmond, the nine dan professional who commented on this, put up the move. And I was like, "Oh, no, that doesn't look good, right? I wouldn't have played that." Not that I would be able to judge, really. But But then he said, "Oh, no, that must be a mistake." And, you know, panic in my heart, in all of our hearts, I think.
58:06But then he put it back and, you know, kind of started nodding and said, "Wow, you know, this could be something really special. This This first looked like a mistake to him, but then it turned out to be such a brilliant move. And you know, and we had great relief. But also, I think we were witnessing the first time that a machine really made a creative contribution in the sense that it was uh novel and um and useful.
58:33And um and I believe that it was only able to do that because it had the reasoning component. If you think about it logically, if uh if you just have an imitation learning process, you know, like our neural networks back then, but also like uh like large language models, then they can never really break out of the hole that has been created by that knowledge. It takes reasoning to get outside of that that boundary to
59:01genuinely discover new things. And so, I think that's the way uh in which we can really boost uh scientific creativity as well.
59:10Yeah, really cool. And like, talking about that, like novel reasoning is something that Luke and I have got incredibly excited about through interviewing guests previously, where we get excited about the fact that if these um if frontier AI does continue to improve at the rate that it is, that we'll we'll come into a realm of of completely new discoveries that are like beyond human comprehension. I guess like microcosmically, that's a good example of what happened with move 37. It can kind of think in a way that humans aren't able to do, and it brings novel discoveries and and like a creative element to the way that it works. Within that, though, like we're we're seeing a
59:39lot of um worry on the timeline uh in the news right now around some of the existential threat claims. I was wondering if you subscribe to any of the claims being made at the moment by uh lab leaders or general discourse around future threats of RSI or AGI. Does it Does that sit with you? Because it I'm I'm sat here now thinking like surely that we'll reach a we'll reach a ceiling with LLM architecture right now. So, that would maybe negate the existential threat to me away.
1:00:07Yeah, you know, I think the existential threats are overblown. This is very powerful technology, and it opens up so many possible uh positive avenues for research, medical research, for example, material uh research, and so on. And because it is so powerful, we need to be very careful about it. That seems clear to me, but I don't subscribe to any of those doom scenarios because there's just no evidence for that. And you know, I think strong claims require strong evidence.
1:00:36But what I do believe is that we need to make these systems safer. And the first step to making something safer is to make it more transparent.
1:00:46And so, if I if a large if an AI system makes a decision for me that's important, be that in science, engineering, medical, or whatever, air traffic control, you know, we need to be able to go back and ask why did it make this decision? What sources of evidence did it tap into? How did it judge those sources of evidence? How did it combine those insights? And only if we can do
1:01:14that, will these system be systems be safe. And that's why I think that this kind of architecture will eventually take over because it's the only safe architecture. We can't allow ourselves for these systems to be completely black box.
1:01:29Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember like I think it was when Astra was released. I remember reading an article around people were slightly worried at the fact that it's reasoning transparency became a lot more opaque essentially. Like people and people weren't really sure why that was even internally at Open AI.
1:01:47Is that traditionally like a cause for concern you believe then? I guess this is why Meta's reasoning is is is getting so much attention right now because I guess the opaqueness equals worry, right? We're not aware of what's happening. We don't know why it maybe makes us feel uncomfortable.
1:02:02Exactly. I think that's right. And it rightly makes us uncomfortable. So if we don't understand how the systems decide, that is reason for concern. And of course, you know, these systems have what we call the chain of thought, you know, which are these intermediate tokens that are being generated that lead up to the final decision of what the system outputs. But it turns out that these chains of thoughts can also be very opaque. And that, you know, sometimes the system comes up with the
1:02:31answer and then only uses the trace to do a post talk justification of what it outputted. And sometimes they downright panic. I don't know if you've seen these, but you know, sometimes the the model gets really aggravated in its chain of thought and so on. And I think we can do better. We don't want AI systems to be like humans and just being driven by some kind of inner monologue. We can make them better. They're machines in service of
1:03:00humanity and we should make them follow our rules.
1:03:05Yeah. Yeah. I think the the launch of Meta's has has kind of made me realize like this this feels like almost like a something that is existential in terms of the you know building frontier AI and getting to you know the next frontier the next one other lab leaders you know thinking about reasoning as much as as much as they should or do you feel like this is you know we're still very early in in the reasoning you mentioned you know after what you guys did with AlphaGo
1:03:35reasoning was kind of you know almost forgotten do you feel like do you know why it was forgotten and do you feel like these lab leaders and thinking enough about reasoning I'd love to love to understand your insight on that.
1:03:50Yeah yeah it's interesting. So one thing to realize is that the large labs are in this scaling um phase right? It's all about scaling more data more compute larger models and they've discovered that to be a phenomenal way of making the models stronger.
1:04:08Um but the problem is that that cannot fundamentally change some aspects of these models. For example by scaling more these models will never get more understandable or more auditable in what they do. In fact it's the opposite they become less auditable they produce less of a clear reasoning trace and while they may be strong on the performance side of what they actually output it becomes ever harder to understand what they do. But for the large labs
1:04:37it's very difficult to get off that train if you see what I mean. You know they're all on that on that scaling train and I think that opens up opportunities you know for initially smaller players in the ecosystem to do things that are necessary.
1:04:55Yeah really cool. I know we're just coming to the end I'd love to ask one one one question just around what is it that you know when you're going to bed at night at one thing that keeps coming to your brain about something that you're incredibly excited about for the future and the development of this technology like what what are we expecting five years from now I know that's hard to compress timelines that far out, but um what is it that maybe, you know, the public should know about how great this technology can be?
1:05:20Yeah, I know I um you know, at heart I'm a scientist and I'm really excited about the prospect of uh AI helping us advance science. And uh when I speak about the reasoning process, it's not just reasoning within the data that you have. Reasoning is this interactive process where the model reasons about what it has, but also suggests new experiments, takes new measurements, and so on, and then processes that.
1:05:49And um and it's that interactive um reasoning that I think will lead to scientific breakthroughs in medicine, in material science, and you know, in the basic sciences as well. And I think that is super exciting. And then if we can even understand how the system arrived at those insights so that we can really trust them. I think that would be the perfect moment in a few years time to arrive.
1:06:15So, thank you so much for joining us. Congratulations on uh Methuselah's reasoning, the new paper, everything that you're doing. It's uh it's incredible for the ecosystem. We're huge fans.
1:06:23Thanks for your time as well. We appreciate it.
1:06:25Enjoy Berlin as well.
1:06:27See you later, sir. Thank you. Uh wow, awesome dude. Um uh really great conversation. Maybe um That was uh probably one of the best.
1:06:35Yeah, that was so good.
1:06:36[laughter] I got to ask about Move 37 as well, which uh which is really Yeah, you put it off.
1:06:40You put it off as well. It's pretty cool.
1:06:41Yeah, it's so sick.
1:06:42Um let me tell you about Valerian.
1:06:43Valerian lets you organize your AI or your control, your data, your agents, your keys. Stop renting your intelligence. Go and own it. Go to valerian.com.
1:06:52Um let's uh let's start talking a little bit about What's on What What's next on the docket?
1:06:57Well, we have uh next guest is obviously Arthur Mensch, co-founder and CEO at Mistral. Uh in In of the news of the day, we have uh the bugging situation with OpenAI. There's been developments. The individual was chatting with Saudi Royals during this process, basically.
1:07:20So, this is the former OpenAI worker who was accused of bugging has been discussing jobs with Saudi Royals. I did see his package was leaked online. It was $375 million and 2.1 mil in stock options, as well. Um $375 million dollars.
1:07:37Sorry, 375,000 dollars. He was not making 375 million. $375,000 and 2.1 mil in stock options was his package.
1:07:47But, obviously, this is getting sort of traversed right now. People are uncovering different bits and bobs. But, a judge rules that Alfazan should be held without bail after a Saudi consulate had offered to pay for his release. So, they they are trying to help him. Um before he was arrested, the Saudi national accused of bugging a restricted OpenAI conference room had allegedly been in touch with a member of the Saudi royal family about job opportunities in the kingdom, federal prosecutors have said. And then, I guess this obviously causes concern cuz they're like, "Okay, now is there a
1:08:16reason in which the bugging went down?
1:08:19Like, is this a uh you know, they're they're kind of finding like, "Okay, we have a a reason, an agenda to do that, and this is the resulting impact."
1:08:27Um the new allegation came at a hearing where a federal magistrate judge ruled that Alfazan, a 35-year-old former OpenAI employee, should be held without bail pending trial before he is a flight risk. Uh there is a real threat here, US Magistrate Judge Alex G. over.
1:08:45Say repeatedly brought up a document from Saudi Arabia's Los Angeles consulate that said it would cover Alfazan's entire bail bond. Said, "Even if I set it at 10 million," asked Judge Say, "I find that problematic. Seems like a blank check. Uh we're going to pay whatever the court wants to make sure he gets out essentially. So they they just haven't even set a bail.
1:09:07Cuz they know whatever number they they as they set a number, it's game over.
1:09:11Remember in the thing they're probably like 1 billion. So if they they they they get a bite, you know, they could they could maybe milk this.
1:09:18make a they can make a quick quick Make [laughter] a quick buck quick billy. William Purnell, which is a lawyer representing Alfazan, argued his client is a green card holder and wanted to stay in the US. He is not a visitor. He is not a tourist. He's an immigrant who who was weeks away from getting his citizenship.
1:09:36Alfazan is accused of wrapping a thumb-sized circuit board and microphone in toilet paper and inserting the device behind a wall-mounted TV inside the conference room, which we covered in depth. I think last Friday did that break?
1:09:51Uh yeah, maybe Thursday.
1:09:53Maybe Thursday. They were sitting on it for a little bit, but you know, we know that they they wanted to honey pot him. Um opening I said he was scheduled for 2 months of paternity leave beginning sometime in October. But and prosecutors said in a filing ahead of the hearing, he had booked a one-way plane ticket from San Francisco to Saudi Arabia via Istanbul for himself, his wife, and his 3-month-old son departing on October 12th.
1:10:17So obviously maybe there was a plan put in place to um uh plant the bug.
1:10:26Alfazan's wife and son left without him shortly after his arrest, prosecutors said their one-way tickets were initially paid for by the Saudi government, but the flight was canceled. They were then rebooked on another one-way flight to Qatar, this time in business class by a member of Saudi military, the filing said. So damn, they they went. It was it was all set. Oh, that would be kind of tough, wouldn't it? You'd be like, ah, it's nearly there.
1:10:51Just got there. Yeah.
1:10:52Just right at the end of the tunnel. Um What's that um what's that movie where right at the end, the um, it's uh Alex was talking about this movie the other day. It was about I know, I think it was you, us three. Uh, we were talking about this movie and right at the end they like get on the plane and it's literally like at the What is it about? It's about It's like a fairly political movie.
1:11:13Something happened. It starts with like um, I think these writers like uh, infiltrating the the um, uh, the embassy that they're in.
1:11:26Yeah, what a great movie.
1:11:28Um, and uh, It's going to say Shark Tale.
1:11:30[laughter] Argo, Argo. Um, not Shark Yeah, yeah, like that that's obviously, you know, obviously not the same, but it's it's very much It's very much It's very much like they just they just get on the plane. They can see the I think it's literally you can see the army trucks following the the plane. And then they take off.
1:11:50it? They were like, yeah, Canadian actors they pretended to be a spy or something?
1:11:54like that. Something like that.
1:11:55Um, what a film. Just worth uh, bringing that up anyway. It was such a good film.
1:12:00Um, but uh, so yeah, they So, wife, child have gone. Um, Alfuzan behind. No bail has been set because blank check basically. He'll just He'll just come out and he'll go. Um, they've said that uh, they've been asked by the judge what the brother-in-law's role was in the Saudi military cuz there's connections there as well. Um, they believe that he was in the navy. So, a bit of sort of gray area around that. Um, Alfuzan's wife has told the FBI she uh, the day she left that her visa was expiring and that she
1:12:29and her son were permanently moving back to Saudi Arabia. Um, uh, allegedly also told prosecutors that Alfuzan planned to come back to the US, but eventually move permanently there as well. So, you know, saying, "We're going to go. We have some things to sort. He's going to come with, but he'll be back. Don't worry."
1:12:45pre um, uh, Oh, sorry. No, post post uh, post arrest. Um, but in court on Monday, Alfons lawyers said his wife had been planning to return to the US. Yeah, purchased a one-way ticket because her visa was expiring. It was unclear to her how long the renewal process would take.
1:13:04Um, lawyers for Alfons also said that his wife would use a visitation visa to fly back. So, they're very much adamant that like they were going, but we were coming back. It's hard to defend that really, I think in court. Like the the you know, the evidence is kind of I think the evidence stacks up all against him completely.
1:13:21Not in a good spot. Not in a good spot. [laughter] As he should as he should be. He shouldn't be in a good Oh, they mention here. Okay, Alfons had been an employee on OpenAIs product team since July 2025. His base salary when he joined OpenAI so you can imagine that there's been a refresher since then cuz I think they usually happen 6 months.
1:13:39a he's got a promotion.
1:13:41Wait, he did. And obviously his forgone said promotion.
1:13:44No longer huge for him. Um, it was 325 k 325,000 with a new higher equity grant of 2.2 million um in in stock options. Wow, what an astonishing number. Um, and his base was then later increased to 385. And typically that comes with I think a further refresher on stock options in traditional uh large-scale SaaS firms.
1:14:11Um, uh uh throughout 2025 and 2026, Alfons was in frequent WhatsApp communication with an un- uh named member of Saudi royal family as well. Um, uh royal family member told Alfons an artificial intelligence initiative was being launched in Saudi Arabia and he wanted Alfons to join it. Um, uh Saudi needs you more uh than the US. Saudi royal member family said. Uh, he replied 100. Not sure if that was the emoji or a
1:14:39just text-based 100. I assume it was the emoji. Um, I said yeah, that's the emoji.
1:14:46Yeah, it's so you don't to type 100 Uh, when you when you when you do reply 100.
1:14:52Saudi Royal repeatedly tried to recruit Alfonsin, but at the time he wouldn't leave until his stock vested. Fair enough. It's unclear whether Alfonsin's equity had vested before he was fired on the day of his arrest. I mean, if he's been there since what, July 2025?
1:15:07It's now 20 Yeah, I mean, 1 year he's probably got 25% there.
1:15:12I assume, like 1 year cliff. Like 3-year vesting schedule potentially. So, he's probably unlocked what, 25% of that?
1:15:20he's going to be a bad leaver, so he's not going to get anything.
1:15:22Well, yeah, no, he's he's obviously screwed now, but [laughter] I mean, what constitutes a bad leaver?
1:15:29bucks. Yeah, you're a good leaver, you can get some of the stock.
1:15:32You know what, you earned that money.
1:15:34[laughter] You earned it.
1:15:35Thanks for all your hard work and for bugging our office.
1:15:39That's so unfortunate. That's so tough.
1:15:41Like, what is he playing at here?
1:15:43Obviously, you're going to get done for that. It's like that out of all the companies in the world right now, that is literally one of I guess He was He was just laying a trail of bread crumb crumbs as well. Like a good spy.
1:15:55He's not a good spy at all.
1:15:56Um anyway, help yourself out. Um let's uh let's go to the next story. Let's just keep moving this on.
1:16:01[snorts] Uh Google executives dismiss European fears over US dominance of AI, the Financial Times has reported. Um a top Google executive has dismissed European concerns that US companies are set to dominate AI, apparently. Arguing fierce competitions between Big Tech and a cadre of fast-growing startups is driving down prices and creating new opportunities for the region's businesses. Um it's actually quite timely um with a article coming out very soon.
1:16:29Um quick clap, let's go. Um Kent Walker, um Google parent Alphabet's president of global affairs and chief legal officer, told the FT that, "Look at the space right now, it's remarkable. You couldn't imagine a more competitive environment.
1:16:44Walker uh pointed to big tech groups such as Nvidia, Meta, SpaceX, as well as US OpenAI labs, OpenAI and Anthropic, France's Mistral, shout out to Mistral, plus another [applause] plus another half dozen or a dozen Chinese companies, he said. And what's the effect of that? Prices are dropping at an astonishing rate, capabilities are increasing at an astonishing rate, too.
1:17:07European Competition Commissioner Teresa Ribera is stepping up scrutiny of the rapidly developing AI industry. Brussels officials are concerned that the dominance of established US technology companies could allow them to gain an unfair advantage in a market that is predicted to underpin the block's economy. Alphabet, the most the third most valuable company in the world, has faced intense scrutiny in recent years as regulators have investigated its dominance of online search, vast advertising business, and its ubiquitous
1:17:37Android operating system. Despite losing a trio of US antitrust lawsuits, the company was not forced to sell any parts of its empire. Instead, it was required to share more data with rivals and open up certain services to third parties.
1:17:51Um they could then go on to talk about DeepMind and how the labs unveiled an upgraded version of the Gemini model that has caught up with the market leaders Anthropic and OpenAI, plans to integrate its AI technology into everything like Maps, Gmail, Android, YouTube, has reignited concerns that the big tech giant can use scale, distribution, and financial firepower to squeeze out emerging AI rivals.
1:18:14I forget Android is a thing.
1:18:16Um yeah, but I think it does it does run a lot Yeah, I think it is big.
1:18:22Well, I I How big is it? Like, how how many people actually have an Android phone? Like, do we know?
1:18:28Yeah, but it's more the operating system around it, I think. Um that's that's that's most important. I mean, like, think about the um yeah, it's [clears throat] just the operating system.
1:18:36So, whenever I see someone with an Android phone I'm always just like then again Google's phones have been incredibly the performance of Google's phones sales have been great I think. Yeah I want to say they have. I don't know it's just whenever I see someone who isn't using like a MacBook I'm like Yeah yeah it's it's it's negative or Well they're they're either they're either like cracked cracked as hell or they suck. It's completely polarized.
1:19:01MacBooks you can't really tell to be fair. It's just like you don't know if they suck Or they could be seriously cracked as well.
1:19:07Yeah yeah yeah yeah. But I feel like there's just they're all you also have like the middle so it's like a bell curve distribution but everyone's got one but I think with non-MacBook users yeah it's just like posh posh like you know. Could be cracked could not be cracked.
1:19:21Um Yeah yeah. In Brussels the company is facing scrutiny under the EU's Digital Markets Act including over whether it is providing rival online search engines and certain AI chatbots with sufficient access to anonymized search engine data which is key to developing competing AI-powered services. Now while now I'm reading this like the conversation that we had like that we just had you know about the thing about reasoning guys.
1:19:50Like it feels so existential considering you know considering what Tor has just released. Um you know what they've launched I feel like you can't hit AGI without that happening.
1:20:00Should I email them and say can we put a check in?
1:20:03[laughter] Hey love the chat. Please please can we invest? I'm begging you.
1:20:09Please can we put in some little check in?
1:20:11I'll do a Reed Hoffman.
1:20:12I'll do a genuine Reed Hoffman right now. $100.
1:20:15[laughter] Big check.
1:20:20Let me let me lead the round.
1:20:22[laughter] I don't care about the terms.
1:20:27[laughter] This is my qualitative like his mustache.
1:20:31So good. Uh, let's um, let's keep going. Anyway, actually, let me tell you about 11 Labs quickly. AI that communicates at human level across every channel and modality, deploy conversational agents across every interaction, and create on-brand content at scale in 70 plus languages. Get it at 11labs.io.
1:20:50You love AI. Love to see it. Um, so what is happening right now? We're having a studio-wide discussion.
1:20:58He just Sam's just giving me a charger, and uh, Alex is now also giving me a charger, so I'm I'm doubled up.
1:21:04Yeah, 10 10 minutes later, though.
1:21:06[laughter] Twice the power. Do you want to take this back or no?
1:21:10Let's leave it there.
1:21:12I'm kind of like live on the show right now.
1:21:15[laughter] Uh, let's have a look at the timelines. There are a few more things that I want to I want to get into. Um, namely something that I've been discussing recently in the studio. Um, I've been bringing it up quite often because I am British. I think it's what British people do. Uh, but this is a tweet from the Weather Channel.
1:21:35Um, and they've approached it with all lowercases. You'll love to see. They say, "We are officially weeks away from the sun setting at 4:30 p.m." Oh, go away, Claude. Sorry. Uh, "We're officially weeks away from the sun setting at 4:30 p.m. Please begin mentally preparing to eat your dinner in the pitch black."
1:21:55Wish I was going to be there next time.
1:21:57Official Weather Channel. And I wanted to ask you, Luke, do you prefer a darker uh, UK, or do you prefer a brighter UK?
1:22:05Uh, this morning I woke up uh, and I thought wow, this is the first time this year that I have Well, no, the first time, you know, the back end of the year that I've uh, I left the office dark. I also got to the office when it was dark.
1:22:16Double dark day. Or double dark for 12 hours. Um, yeah, it was pretty rough. I didn't even get to the office that early this morning, and it was still dark.
1:22:26Yeah, it is weird. I don't know what I feel good that. not. I got in at like and it was like dark and I was like, "This is awful."
1:22:31That's what So, the cool thing I used to like getting up early when it was dark. There was something associated with that.
1:22:36feeling uh I've got that dog in me.
1:22:38Yeah, you kind of feel like you're ahead. You kind of feel like, "Pff, everyone else is always asleep. I'm out here doing my thing."
1:22:44But, the sad thing about And that's great in summer cuz, you know, because it's dark, that's kind of tells you that you're awake early than earlier than everyone else.
1:22:52And then what sucks about the winter when this happens You can't tell.
1:22:55You could You could leave late. You could be late. But, your body's kind of in that reward system where you're like, "Oh, I'm outside and it's dark in the morning."
1:23:02It's like half eight.
1:23:03Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, "Now I've got to go to a 40-minute tube journey. I get stuck in the crunch." Um but, I will say that I do prefer I like that, the crunch.
1:23:11stuck in the crunch, yeah, yeah. Um she came up with it then. Um I think it's pretty good as well, actually. Um uh I I do think that I I prefer I There is a time for dark London, I think.
1:23:24I think dark London, everyone everyone turns into like locked-in mode. It's time to go.
1:23:30Yeah, yeah, I agree. I fully agree.
1:23:32I I think you can use it to your advantage cuz I feel that more people are And this is very like bro of me.
1:23:38Um this is to be fair. I thought I had when I was more of like a broer, to be fair, when I was like a 75 harder. Um but, I do think it's like a strategic advantage in a way that you can use to get ahead of others cuz I feel most people are not going to go to the gym.
1:23:50Sure. Not going to get up early cuz it's cold and dark. But, if you're like, "Oh, it's cold and dark. Chance to get ahead." I think it can be pretty beneficial.
1:24:00Um I think it's a I think it's an undis- under-discussed um like leverage.
1:24:06there's a there's an unspoken rule between lots of people and say, you know, we're going to we're going to get hard.
1:24:12Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I agree. I agree with you. Uh but, I thought it was worth bringing up cuz I you know, I've been saying recently in the studio like winter is officially here. Uh it's it's And it now genuinely is officially here.
1:24:22Yeah, it's brass. I had a scarf on today.
1:24:24I'm wearing my Valerian bomber jacket.
1:24:28going so well. I've been waiting months to be able to wear that thing.
1:24:31I've been wearing it in summer. I've been boiling hot walking down the road in Soho, but To be fair, every time I see Max, he's always wearing it. He was wearing it during the height of summer.
1:24:4035 40° in the you know in summer, yet the bomber jacket.
1:24:44swimming in it. I was in a lake swimming in it swimming [laughter] in my bomber jacket. It was amazing.
1:24:48Let's pull up this uh this tweet from Brian Syall. Um, he says IKEA manuals, but they come to life. I built the real the real Billy instructions in 3D so you can watch every step and happen exactly as drawn. This is so clever.
1:25:19Who is this? Who Who sings this?
1:25:22[music] It's Kanye, isn't it?
1:25:29[music] [bell] So you'll go through the video as obviously you're building the thing. You don't need Oh, wow, look at that. You can navigate [music] the manual as well.
1:25:39I think this So I assume you need to take photos of all the manual and then you can say, "Okay, now I have all the manual. I'm on this page." And now you can click on your laptop what the manual looks like. I assume you can build you can probably download the manuals off the IKEA website as well.
1:25:53Well, that's just solved that's just made so many fathers' lives easier.
1:25:57Yes. Yes, agreed. Let's let's bring Arthur on onto the studio. Let's do this.
1:26:02Arthur Mensch, CEO and co-founder of Mistral coming onto the European Technology Network. Hello, sir. How are you?
1:26:08Great. Thank you for having me. Good to meet you.
1:26:10It's an absolute pleasure. As you probably know, we've been looking forward to getting something something set up for a while, so it's it's a pleasure to have you on the show, finally.
1:26:18So, that's uh I'm excited to be discussing with you.
1:26:21Yeah, amazing. Um Arthur, you're coming off the back of a of a blockbuster viral uh article. Um Build or Surrender was the title, and we wanted to start the conversation just asking why was it the right time to push this out? What was the message you were trying to get across? And we have a a lot more to discuss, as well.
1:26:40Well, I think now is the right time to accelerate in Europe and to build more infrastructure, to train better models. Uh and if you look at um how people are thinking about it, there is effectively two camps, the one that are optimistic and and think this can be done, and the one that believe that there are ways of focusing on the AI application layer or things like this.
1:26:59Uh and I I thought it was a good time to to remind everyone that uh this is not a technology that allows to build tiny applications on top. Uh it is so big and so capital-intensive, and it can do so many things at the same time, that if you don't build it, uh you're going to be uh left with uh very much the leftovers of uh of the value chain, and that's not going to be very tiny, and that's going to be a very big trade balance problem.
1:27:25So, it's uh I thought it was the right time, cuz there's there's a bunch of European strategists out there that uh comes up with uh original strategies on how to deal with the fact that we cannot build frontier models. I think it's uh it's blatantly wrong that we cannot build frontier models, and I think we have shown that. Uh and I I thought it was a good time to recall it. Uh there's a lot of um a lot of it is around the narratives. Uh
1:27:52there's a lot of pessimistic narratives that are being pushed from outside of Europe, and that uh some Europeans have a tendency to to make their own. Uh and I think if you buy those narratives, then then of course there's no way in which we uh we make it. So, that's that's why I wrote it.
1:28:09Yeah, um I I'd love to just quickly touch on the application layer before we go deeper uh on on to Mistral's kind of strategy around this. Um we we've seen you know, a bunch of value being accrued from the application layer, but I'd love to understand like now what have we kind of squeezed all the value out of the application layer now? Um are you starting to see kind of like you know, um like at the application layer being democratized and and the value kind of going away and moving elsewhere. I'd love to understand like where are we in
1:28:38that kind of like you know, value that value accrual kind of like you know, position, I guess.
1:28:44Well, the thing is that the models, the general purpose models, they can behave more and more autonomously. So, you the more they become powerful, the less you need to do custom harnesses, the less you need to focus on the on the idiosyncrasies of a certain vertical. There are domains in which there's some data that is very hard to find and where verticalization makes a lot of sense.
1:29:07But at the end, if you actually don't own the model layer and you don't own the infrastructure to deploy it, you're going to to struggle. And I'm thinking about like in in the shoes of a European policy makers. So, the the reason why it's very hard to sustain large businesses that are just doing applications is the fact that AI has there's a lot of transfer learning happening. And whenever we pass
1:29:37threshold on the amount of compute we put into a model, we solve a bunch of tasks that used to be solved with more custom solutions. And so, there is effectively some economies of scale there that means that you you have the model layer, let's say, and the infrastructure layer is only growing and growing at a faster rate than anything application.
1:29:58Yeah, really cool. I mean, you mentioned the infrastructure layer there. Let let let's talk about Mistral full stack positioning. Where are you guys at today? Would love to get like a temp check of especially off the back of Le Chat Bot and the roll out of that that recent model. Where are things today over at Mistral?
1:30:12[snorts] Well, we have worked quite quite a lot on making this release. We're excited by the next 2 weeks cuz we're going to open source it and and in the mean in between the preview and the and and the true release, we've actually made a lot of progress. So, we have the reinforcement learning platform that is working full steam now and and it's showing improvements that never seem to stop.
1:30:37It took some time for us to build it. It took around a year to have something working. But now that it works, it's all about just finding the right environment and and scaling it and putting it into more GPUs. So, we're quite excited by this. We're very excited by the infrastructure build out that is taking place. We have pretty ambitious road map with multiple hundreds of megawatt coming online next year. We have plenty already available.
1:31:03We're very proud that Le Chat Bot is actually serviced on infrastructure that we fully control. So, from a European enterprise point of view, it means that this is decoupled and it's not submitted to certain extra territorial laws for instance.
1:31:18We've also trained the model on top of infrastructure that we own and that made us able to serve that infrastructure to other AI natives. So, it took some time again cuz we started really in March 2025 to build the infrastructure. And now it's we're at this very exciting time where everything is coming together so that we can provide high quality of service AI well token generation.
1:31:43Where we have pretty exciting road map on model improvements and in 2027 we're going to have much more training compute and inference compute to actually scale our training and to continue to do progress.
1:31:56Yeah, even you kind of touched on it but I'd love to get you know, I'd love to kind of ask point blank. In in the article, in the article that you wrote, you said dependence on others, even on their openness, is still dependence.
1:32:07Can you explain why, like, you know, building open models is like only half the thing? What is Mistral's like, you know, real strategy here? Obviously, you know, you're moving into the into the infrastructure layer and and doing incredibly well, and you have, you know, amazing ambitious targets for that. But, I'd love to understand like what is your thinking? What what does Europe need to do to have this independence that we that we want?
1:32:30I think it's it in open source software, just like in open source artificial intelligence, you cannot only be a consumer of the technology. So, you can't just take open source software or open source systems and put it on your hardware and believe that you're going to build a long-term business. The only way in which you can build a sustainable business on open source technology is to be an active contributor to it.
1:32:53The reason for that is that at some point the economics catch up and if you're dependent on consortium or on a few actors that are actively contributing to the open source ecosystem, they will lock you out of access of accessing the technology. And so, the narrative that Europe can actually just depend on open source models produced by Chinese labs is precisely wrong in in in that we have 40 years of
1:33:22knowing what it what happens if you just use open source software without contributing to it. So, in order to to build a reliable ecosystem based on open source foundations, you need to be an active contributor to that. And it takes well, it takes capital cuz you need to train you need to train large models.
1:33:39And so, that's the reason why we we have been believers from the very beginning that the most important thing to to do at Mistral was to train larger and larger models on on more and more compute and to be an active contributor to the open source ecosystem, which we are today because Le Truck is actually state-of-the-art in multiple domains, including cyber and uh uh certain aspects of on on vision in particular. It's actually state-of-the-art among the open-source models.
1:34:09Yeah. And you you stated uh you know, I think you you mentioned uh we're already building frontier frontier models. You obviously, you know, Le Le Truck is an example. Then you've also got Eleven Labs and Blackforest Labs as well. And I think you mentioned them in in the article. They kind of The question I guess is like the resources and the compute and your your guys' ambition um you know, I think you've mentioned uh previously where it's like we know that we need to go and raise more more more capital to go and get uh to the 1 GW of
1:34:36capacity uh goal. Um why why has Europe never kind of been that ambitious almost? Like why you know, I feel like you you're one of those people that are pushing ambition to another level in in Europe. There are obviously a number of other founders. Can you can you talk to us about the ambition that is needed to kind of like get to the frontier uh in the infrastructure layer that that that we need to be able to go and build more and more uh better models.
1:35:02Well, at this point in time, you basically need to have gigawatt-scale capacity in training and in inference to to have a meaningful business. So, it takes uh dozens of billions of deploy of of uh equity being deployed. And a gigawatt roughly cost you 50 billion over 5 years. So, that's the amount that needs to be put to actually build a substantial and large enough uh capacity.
1:35:30Why is it has it been hard? It's never been done in Europe. Um what has been easy in the US is that you have a bunch of balance sheets uh that are that were actually able to do it. Uh and in the end, that's how it happened.
1:35:42Uh they were the one the hyperscalers could actually afford to start investing at gigawatt-scale on on on building uh uh, large fleets of GPUs. In Europe, there there aren't that big balance sheets and so it's been a little trickier and so it the the the the strategy of Mistral has been to go and raise capital as much as possible as soon as possible knowing that in Europe you don't have uh that large balance sheets
1:36:11with whom to partner. On the other hand, what you have is a very uh, powerful ecosystem of industrial players that many of them became customer of Mistral and that has been a a way for us to raise more, to grow faster, to partner [clears throat] more closely with them. So, Airbus and ASML I think are very good examples, Total Energy. If you look at the top 10 of European market caps, you
1:36:38have a lot of industrial companies, manufacturing companies and those became very natural partners to us because they could afford to do a lot of R&D with us.
1:36:50And because they also became financial partners in investing in Mistral. So, it's that's how we solved that problem. I I shouldn't say we have solved it cuz it's not solved yet. But at the end, you have capital available in in Europe. You just need to show why scaling deployment of infrastructure on artificial intelligence makes sense cuz it's going to be super important down the line.
1:37:132023, we we were only able to show it for raising to raise 100 million.
1:37:18Uh, last two two months ago we were able to say that and raise 3 billion and we're going to continue doing this. So, I'm very confident that the equity market has kind of woke up to the opportunity of um of investing in AI in Europe just because the technology is just too fundamental for Europe to ignore and so that makes me very optimistic for what's coming ahead for us.
1:37:40That's amazing. Okay.
1:37:42You you mentioned just quickly you mentioned that the end of the article kind of like the first thing is breaking the pessimism. You kind of just mentioned there like you know, we are starting to wake up. The equity markets are starting to wake up about how fundamental this technology is.
1:37:56Do you feel like we have broken the pessimism or do you feel like there is still still pessimism to kind of break?
1:38:01[snorts] I mean there are there is still pessimism in Europe but there's a lot of optimist companies in particular that are adopting with a lot of ambition.
1:38:13There's a lot of funds that are willing to invest very large checks into building that system. The the conviction of the market that sovereign AI was a category wasn't there in 2023. It's clearly there in 2026 and why is that?
1:38:29This is just the technology is as fundamental as electricity in that it's going to drive GDP growth for the for the decades to come and if there is no local production that's going to be an enormous trade balance problem that is going to create such a depend dependency that we've never seen in the history of civilization. So that's that realization brings states to the table. They it brings companies to the table cuz they can't
1:38:59afford to be locked into um trade dependency that are threatening their own sovereignty. It's and it brings funds to the table because they realize that there is an enormous market actually to be that is not going to be addressable by in Europe by foreign providers. So that's all I think the narrative has started to shift and we sense a lot of optimism in that respect.
1:39:24Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um a question on just like on macro scale of things right now we're seeing some people on the timeline subscribe to the foothills of the singularity as Demis came out and said a few weeks a few months back comments around like AGI and then within that as an extension of that we're seeing concerns around existential humanitarian threats, civilization-ending threats. To be more specific, do you subscribe to any of that at all or is that just noise to you?
1:39:52[snorts] I mean, I subscribe to the idea that we're building very powerfully AI systems that can uh create a lot of economic value that can be more intelligent than humans in many domains, including in research. Which should be which if all if anything should be a reason for um the rest the non-US world to invest further into that technology.
1:40:15It's pretty clear that there's a path to accelerate any kind of research with artificial intelligence either in an autonomous way autonomous way or in a semi-autonomous way.
1:40:24Uh do I believe in singularity? I certainly don't. I mean, singularity are assuming that there there is no source of friction and it's turns out that this is a very physical technology because it use compute and energy. And so, if only because of this you do have friction. So, there's nothing that is exploding in a way that that that is going to be out of control.
1:40:46What is quite interesting and I think something to really address together and it's it's a hard problem is to build agents that are easier to control. It's pretty clear that they are getting good enough to escape from non-hardened sandboxes. It's going to be a friction for adoption in the enterprise that autonomous agents have a tendency to go and do pretty surprising stuff.
1:41:11Uh so, that's a key domain of investment for Mistral. It's the reason why we're investing a lot in cyber because if you do invest in cyber, you you build further capabilities to block what an agent could could try to try and escape its own box for instance. So, the investment in security in the agent in security is very critical for us. Uh and it's going to be the reason it's critical for us is that it's critical for our customers.
1:41:39Doomsday scenario, I I don't subscribe to them. I I don't see any meaningful path in which AI escapes out of control and in a way where we cannot turn off the computers it runs on. So, it's a bit science fiction to me, but there are very more concrete things to address right now and most of it is around misuse.
1:42:00Uh How do you make How do we make sure that models do not get used for cyber attacks by bad actors for instance?
1:42:08Uh and and then loss of control, but in a very local way where you basically end up with very buggy software and surprising behaviors.
1:42:17Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think we we we we align with that in general. I just know you have a hard stop, maybe one more just around the naming of Le Chat I have to ask like how why We're huge fans of of of the fat cat and we have to know why why it was called Le Chat.
1:42:33Um so, you should ask the the person that that I think went on Reddit and and ask for Le Chat Fat which I think was in June. We wish we could have released it the day after, but we were not fully ready yet. Uh well, it's true that Mistral has always anchored itself around the big cats and so Le Chat is actually not such a big cat which means that there will be bigger cats coming. Uh but it was Well, the team came up with this idea and and we loved it. So, uh
1:43:01So, I hope that that people will will love it as well.
1:43:05Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They do. They do.
1:43:06Well, we we love it over here at H&N.
1:43:08There are bigger cats coming.
1:43:10Yeah. Uh look, Arthur, thank you very much for for for your time. We appreciate it. We know you're very busy and we love your work. So, please yeah, keep going cuz I love the name of the cat.
1:43:19much and and and great job on the on organizing this show.
1:43:23Appreciate it. Appreciate it.
1:43:24We'll see you soon. All the best. Ciao.
1:43:26[applause] It's amazing.
1:43:29[cheering] Yeah, the team's very happy. We are very happy, too. Um that was awesome. Uh that was a dream come true. Very cool.
1:43:39How large was it? Larger cats?
1:43:41It wasn't large. They're We now have one of the Infinity Stones of the lab leaders.
1:43:45One of the Infinity Stones. Um who's next? Dennis, we're coming for you, buddy.
1:43:50[laughter] In a in a friendly way, of course. In a very friendly way.
1:43:53Um let me tell you about Metaview. Agents for winning teams, the good agents recruiting platform built for our agency. Listen, I am end-to-end source engaged and high bidder with agents that truly get your brief. Get at metaview.ai. Um I am entertained. That was very entertaining. Um before we have our next guest on, Ian Ian, reunited at last with Ian. He'll be joining us in about 4 minutes, I think. Um very very fun.
1:44:20Let's bring him in. Let's get him in. More time with Ian.
1:44:27[laughter and applause] The big shoe is behind you.
1:44:33How are we? The room is looking amazing as always.
1:44:36The shoe wasn't in view, but you know, what can I do? I should have done Oh, I I would love to see that. I would love to see that. The room's looking incredible as always. The big shoe is there. The CryptoPunk is there. How are things with you, Ian? What's going on?
1:44:47Ooh, oh, you know, not much. Not much not much happening in France these days.
1:44:50Everything's pretty normal.
1:44:52[laughter] Been boring. How about you guys?
1:44:55Luke was in France. Luke was I I was in I was in Paris this weekend. Probably the worst weekend to go.
1:45:01Uh but uh no, I I actually had a I actually had a great time. Um yeah, are you in Par- are you based in Paris?
1:45:06Yeah, I'm based in Paris.
1:45:07Oh, no way. I didn't know that. Um should hit you up.
1:45:09Yeah, you should have come should have come by.
1:45:10Yeah, yeah. Next time.
1:45:12I have a quite a nice rooftop that you we can come have a coffee on.
1:45:15Okay, I will be hitting you [laughter] It's a great viewing point.
1:45:23Sounds idyllic. Um Ian, it's so good to see you again. Uh let us know what what what what has Ledger just released? This is incredibly interesting.
1:45:31Yeah, we had our big event last week. We have a we have an annual keynote event. We had we had that last week and and we had, you know, two big announcements.
1:45:38One I talked about all the agentic security stuff that we're doing. Super cool seeing our Arthur a second ago and and he talked about the fact that, you know, controlling agents is going to be a challenge. So, our point of view on that is kind of a division of labor where agents can be agents, but then you have this kind of deterministic gate that that agents need to ask permission to go through. I think I might have used this this example last time, but it's like a 16-year-old with the car keys. You know, they're not in the bedroom with the 16-year-old,
1:46:08they're in the parent's pocket. And when it wants access, it asks. And if it's Monday morning and they're on the way to school, then it's a yes. And if it's Friday night and, you know, they're hammered, it's a no. So, there's a lot of gray area in between. That's the same thing with agents, you know, they're going to do a lot of work on our behalf, but they shouldn't hold the secrets.
1:46:24They should ask you for them. You know, so my open claw doesn't start unless I plug in my Ledger. My you know, if if my cloud code wants my Jev key, asks me for it. I say here it is. You know, that that it's just that kind of a gate. And then the other thing that we announced is a device called Adam.
1:46:44It's a new Ledger device. It is an Android-based device. So, it'll run all of your apps.
1:46:49So, any any Android app can be meaningfully more secure running on Ledger Adam. It basically has a mode where it becomes a Ledger. So, it's a it's it can be an Android device, you know, 90-plus percent of the time. And then when you need, you know, for Android to go away so that you can have a direct connection to the secure screen with the secure element, boom, it basically like a transformer transforms into a Ledger secure Ledger
1:47:17device. You do whatever the secure thing you need to do is. And then you go back. And then the interesting thing about that is that goes beyond crypto. You know, you can just have secure messaging, private messaging.
1:47:28Um you know, messaging which is invisible to Android and only available to two people holding two Ledger Atoms.
1:47:36I think uh a a nice question to kind of properly start off on is um you know, the the the last time we had you on the show, we obviously kind of always talk about the importance of of your role at Ledger. Um and um we always kind of talk about the adoption uh side side of things. Um I think you know, uh when in 2025, peo- peo- people thought you guys were pretty paranoid, I think uh about about agents and AI. And and now that you know, is obviously shifting. I don't I'd love to understand
1:48:04just as a starter point where we are today. Like from the last time you were on the show, like how has that shifted?
1:48:10Have you seen any kind of like real shifts happen uh since the last time we had you on? Um yeah.
1:48:16Yeah, I mean it just keeps going, right?
1:48:17I mean it it it it is true. I said this on the stage last week that on I stood on the the same event last year. I talked about you know, this agentic future coming and the security challenges with that. And there wasn't much interest. And then now, you know, I mean the the you know, the the reality is I had a conversation about hugging face with the guy who served me ice cream in in Paris a few weeks ago, right?
1:48:40I I just heard something similar. Someone was saying you know, I was listening to a podcast and they were like, yeah, and I had a conversation at my oh, at my barber yesterday um about hugging face. So that's how that's sort of like the the the um you know, there's just no one questions if this is something we should worry about or not at the moment, right? So that that's a good that's a good thing.
1:49:01I think that you know, we still have you know, very few tools um to actually deal with it. Uh one of my colleagues was was at is at a conference um in Southern California right now. And he said there are actually many hardware devices there which are kind of about human in the loop. Which you know, the just even the fact that human in the loop is something that we talk about, I think is a is a positive thing, but none of those have the secure screen that the Ledger does.
1:49:26And the the differentiator there is if you're actually approving a transaction, you know, I mean, if you're just proving, "Hey, I'm here." You know, you can do that with you know, with a very simple device.
1:49:38But, with a Ledger, the the screen, you can actually approve what it is you are signing on that secure screen. And that that's really the that's really the difference. So, I think where we are now is we know it's a challenge. I mean, Arthur just mentioned it in your in your previous segment. And now I think we're all getting up to speed on exactly how to how to deal with it. We've launched our agent stack, which is headless versions of our wallet products. So, Ledger wallet, Ledger Enterprise. Now we
1:50:05have this agent intent that we announced last week, which is a way that your agent can be autonomous and put approvals into a queue for you to come back to later. And then now and we've also got some proof of human things that that that we're that we're doing. We announced a partnership with Persona last week. And next we move on to the concept of policies, which we already have inside of Ledger Enterprise, but we want to widen
1:50:34that to even more agentic builders and operators.
1:50:38Yeah, yeah. That's like the word proof of human that you mentioned there. I find it such a crazy like I don't think these words weren't being mentioned maybe a year and a half to two years ago. Maybe by some early adopters they were, but like you know, I would imagine if you went on to Google Trends and look for proof of human mentions, there's probably a spike around a year and a half ago, a year ago.
1:50:59What what and I saw the other day, I think it was I can't remember if it was Teams or Google or someone, but they now have like verified human badges on the calls when they're on group calls in some of these enterprise companies cuz of deep fake attacks and that kind of thing.
1:51:11What what does this future look like that we're heading towards? You know, the proof of human tag, like do you feel that will be, uh, you know, affluent in every single company? Will it be it won't just be on devices, but sometimes I mean there's even a crazy sci-fi situation where in person you'd have to have like a proof of human badge with humanoid robots. But how do you see this playing out? Like is everyone going to have to have a proof of human badge? Like Well, I think this is such an interesting topic and there's we're put this is really fun part, right? Cuz you can imagine a different internet than the one we have today. I think that's
1:51:41it's there you know, and it's somewhat obvious and predictable at this point, which is kind of fun. You know, now we get to just watch it happen over Well, we'll see what exactly the the the timeline is. But if you think about it, we could have used proof of human go back to like kind of Cambridge Analytica times, right? You know what I mean? Like and I think that it just hasn't really been an incentive for the Facebooks and the X to make sure that people are unique human beings. You wouldn't have even needed like a passport from them.
1:52:09You could have just said like prove to me you're not on this site with 10 other names, right? You know, or prove to me that you're not a bot farm. But they've never really had the interest in doing that. Um, you know, now it's like becoming mission critical because as you said, you know, you don't you don't even know if like the person showing up to a job interview is a real person. So, you know, I think now it's just um, it's just something that we need. I really think though that the most interesting thing happening is what
1:52:36Cloudflare um, has going on here where um, where they are you know, they're Cloudflare they they they basically like they sit in front of the majority of the internet, right? And if you're a bot, they don't let you through.
1:52:50Um, and you know, now they've they've came out and they said that it I think it was May of this year, the majority of internet traffic is bots. 94% of all login attempts are bots and they thought that was going to be next year. So if the people who should know this better than anyone else had it wrong, then that, you know, is just increasing like way faster than than anyone imagined.
1:53:12And And what then what they're doing, if you like look closely into Cloudflare's solution to this is they're allowing anyone who uses Cloudflare to basically charge for entry.
1:53:24My point of view is there will be a VIP line on the internet. If you're a bot, get in the queue, Right. [laughter] but you know, but if you are a If you can be you can prove I am a human, if I can prove I am a registered user of this site, you know, I am an Amazon Prime holder or whatever, you know, whatever that kind of equivalent of that is. And maybe even if you have a wallet, right? Like I am willing to pay for access. And that's that's not absurd. I mean, I pay for the XAPI,
1:53:52you know, because I use it in a lot of my like my business intelligent agent uses X to figure out what's going on in my in my sector, right? And that's worth paying for. You know, so I think there are a lot of things where, you know, you'd be willing to pay you know, a fraction of a penny.
1:54:10Yeah, and then uh Sorry, go on.
1:54:12No, I was going to say like we've we've had that in our lives before, right? I mean, if you had cable television, you've paid ESPN whether you watch sports or not, right? So it could be that my, you know, 10 bucks of my Starlink bill goes to paying tolls, you know, that's Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's not absurd. That's fascinating. We've We haven't actually had that uh that angle on the on the show before.
1:54:31Yeah, and it reminds me of like taking like dead internet theory as as as you know, an isolated thing where I I do think we would all be blown away by the percentage of accounts or bots or or or you know, messaging going around that is bot dominated in terms of percentage. Um is there a situation I've been like trying to theorize this a little bit. I think like Nikita Bier has been put for the past 8 months has been making predictions around dead internet theory and what that looks like. Where Is there a case here where and you kind of allude to it a little bit, right? There'd be
1:55:00like a VIP section of the internet where it's like only humans and you have to pay to get in and it's it's set up for humans, but is there a sense where we kind of retreat away from the old internet and you mentioned new internet at the start of the of the conversation, right? Like is it do you you know, is there an element here where we're like, okay, this is so bot dominated that it's almost not unusable, but it's not a as pleasurable as an experience as it was previously.
1:55:23Do we then retreat to the new internet and kind of leave that you know, in my mind I can see it's like a burning pile [laughter] you know, internet and computers and stuff and we kind of retreat over to You're you're doomed.
1:55:35The the internet is already like a burning pile of [laughter] dirty shoe boxes full of garbage, right?
1:55:41It's all The internet's been that for 15 years.
1:55:44But I I think that I'd actually go one step a little further to go, okay, well, what what does the internet look like from my perspective? I think that, you know, the user interface for humans is agents, right? We talk to agents. I want to get, you know, I want to get this done. Agents then use what we used to use as the internet, right? So, I think in that way like to me that's kind of what dead internet theory looks like is yeah, a lot of that stuff does just become like either ghost town or just fodder for the Wayback Machine.
1:56:11And the stuff that we actually use, we're going to be asking our agent, hey man, can you can you like take a look at this for me? And then then what what the internet really becomes is kind of like agent to you know, to internet you know, communication. And that that's that will become the best interface.
1:56:29I mean, I had something you know, today, you know, Revolut's been been down today. I I I buy something my my card was denied. I'd spent 30 minutes on hold at Revolut and finally just asked my agent, hey, is Revolut down or what? And they gave me the full rundown, searched the internet, gave me the full rundown.
1:56:45I mean I should have just done that to begin with, right? I mean, why did I even bother going to the internet to try to solve my problem? My agent's going to solve it for me, you know, while I'm doing something else and faster, right?
1:56:56So, I I do think that is what the future of the internet looks like. We just have I also think that, you know, what my lessons in life tell me is we always think that that's going to happen tomorrow.
1:57:06And it always ends up taking a lot longer and there are a lot more bumps in the road to get there. So, I think we should, you know, that you know, timing is is everything. That's why I think a company like Browser9 is actually incredibly interesting because they give, you know, their point of view is actually the internet is not going to adapt for agents. We're going to make the internet accessible to agents.
1:57:28That's what they do. Now, I I think that over time the internet does become accessible for agents, but we get these kind of like, you know, these way stations in the way, right? Where on the way there we get some other solutions.
1:57:42Um just going on the on on the Revolut like problem that you had and and and like the way that you kind of think about it, I think, you know, for us who's kind of sit in this kind of tech bubble, like now I would think about that problem and go hey, you know, instincts whatever it is, can you just like monitor Revolut situation and if any article comes out or something news news comes out that they're now back online, tell me and then I'll give them a call.
1:58:07And just allow them to monitor it, right? But like that's been that's been ingrained in me because I'm in this tech bubble. But then if you extrapolate that out into the kind of general population, that's going to take so long and you're obviously talking about the timing. Then pulling it back to the Core Weave stuff, I think you mentioned Was it Core Weave No, Outflow, sorry. About I think you said 94% of searches are now bots.
1:58:30Those are login attempts.
1:58:32Login attempts. Okay, so is Do you think that's just a that's not the volume of, you know, people using these bots?
1:58:41That's just the amount of login attempts that these bots are doing for a very, very small amount of the population. What do you think happens when, you know, that's probably not even 1% of the population.
1:58:52What do you think happens when you know 10% of the population or 50% or even 100% of the population are using these bots to the extent where you know [laughter] I don't know like login attempts go from one a day from a human being to thousands a day. I don't know and everyone's using them like what does that just not like break the internet?
1:59:12Yeah, I think you're doing a great job of of expressing why it's going to take longer than we think right you know because I think you're right that adoption will just take that much longer. I mean what I am accomplishing with agents today keeps me awake at night and and I know that most people are still using them like a search engine if they're using them at all right and so that that gap is going to just take there's there's so much sort of slack in that line you know that that's that's hard to imagine but then
1:59:40to your point I mean you just described it well in that we probably need a completely different internet to get there and and that's why I think the cloudflare story is incredibly interesting. I I don't I have no horse in that race. I don't know them. I've never met them. I don't own any equity.
1:59:56I just listen to the CEO on podcast like everybody else and I think it's an incredibly interesting story because they you know he's I would say pretty ahead of the curve in trying to sort of imagine what that future internet looks like and prepare for it.
2:00:10And they're not they're not nobody's.
2:00:12They're not some guys in a garage with an idea. They already sit in front of the majority of the internet. So they actually already have the tool booths right and so that maybe this is where you know it does move faster than you know I was listening to to Ben Horowitz on on all in over over the weekend on last on from last week's show and you know he was pointing out that like the problem in in the dot-com bubble was that the you know the audience just wasn't there yet.
2:00:41We had a lot of supply and the demand hadn't hadn't caught up. [clears throat] There was a lot of internet services and not a lot of internet users. Well, now there is actually a tremendous amount of demand um for the intelligence that that AI is creating. Um you know, so and and now we're you know, there's actually more of a of a supply-side problem. So, I think in that way it probably will accelerate, but that also from a security perspective leaves us in this place that we are right now where you know, if you grab my phone and it's
2:01:10unlocked, you know, you're not going to get into my Revolut account because Revolut's already solved that one. But if you open up Claude, you're you know, you it'll it can walk you through a bunch of secrets that I don't want it to walk you through. That to me is the gap that we have to close relatively quickly and what we're working on at Ledger with our AI security roadmap.
2:01:29Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, really interesting.
2:01:30And like you guys are like pretty like frontier in terms of when we look at like security and the interactions between agents and that's you know, shown in the fact that you guys are releasing products well before anyone else and kind of like before it gets incredibly bad, right? Um but how do you guys philosophize about this internally?
2:01:46Like how do you come to make decisions about security? Do you have any future predictions around security specifically internally that you're like taking some bets on?
2:01:54Yeah, I mean I think for from our perspective, you know, the the the good news here is that a lot of the stuff that we have built for digital asset security over the last 12 years applies.
2:02:03You know, so how do we protect your private key? How do you um you know, we have a genuine check which leads to kind of proof of ledger which leads to proof of human. You know, Ledger Enterprise is a policy engine which is very useful in in an agentic world and we have this like secrets backup and recovery thing which is really useful for for AI builders. I mean it was very useful if you were, you know, protecting your Bitcoin, but if you're using your secrets every day and sharing your secrets with your agent, like now you
2:02:32really need something which which you know, it is can easily be backed up and recovered. So, the good news is is that that stuff all applies and then our philosophy behind it is that we protect the user. So we you have your private key and that means we protect the the the connection between you and your agent. Your agent should only take commands from you. You are by definition of doing what you do with agents sharing secrets with them, right? Because you're delegating tasks to them. They have access to at least your email and your calendar and maybe a lot more in a
2:03:02business context, right? And so you're sharing secrets and you have to manage the way you share those secrets to have alignment, which is a top three issue for humanity. You you must have every action an agent takes in the real world be the result of either an explicit approval by a human or a policy set by a human. And that's the other piece and the final piece is this proof of human.
2:03:23Proof of you. Proof of It might even just be proof of citizenship, proof of age without sharing any PII, but doing that in a way that isn't creating yet another database of personal information and biometrics, etc. is the way that we look at it.
2:03:38Do you if we zoom out onto the micro sensing this probably the last question we've only got a minute left.
2:03:43Do you feel like people are talking about this enough? Do you feel like you know this is this is a big enough topic yet?
2:03:51You know obviously Ledger's as already mentioned you guys are you know at the frontier of this conversation and you know we look up to you for for for that.
2:04:00But I feel like this conversation isn't happening in a practical sense. Like a lot of people are having it in a you know theoretical sense and like agents can go and do this that and the other, but it's like practically how do we think about that in relation to human beings? You guys are having that conversation and answering those questions, right? So like Yeah, I'd love to [clears throat] know that.
2:04:19Yeah, I know completely. I think I think the good news is is that that nobody questions that there is a security opening here, right? That there there's a need for security. Then I think beyond that it start the the the solutions I don't think people are really thinking very practically about. You know you hear a lot of fear mongering.
2:04:35You you hear like hands in the air, you hear like more governance in the LLM's, which is not the right solution. The division of labor is a better solution.
2:04:44And I've found that when I talk to people and I just say these very simple things, we protect the connection between you and the agent, we help you manage secrets, we handle approvals and policies, and we do proof of human, there's almost like a like a silence, which is like, "Oh, that's practical.
2:05:00Well, [laughter] who who do that?
2:05:02You know you guys do that." And and I think that that's that's what I'm trying to do. But I have a I you know, I have a lot of work to do. Ledger's very well known in in crypto, and you know, the reality is is that you know, that that America doesn't think about security as you know, all that much, right? Like we're we're as Americans we're much more in the it's going to be fine camp, right? And we in this case we really need to be thinking about you know, practical solutions. So we're just trying to get bring them to market,
2:05:31get people aware of them, get people to try them, you know, and keep building so So really appreciate you guys having me on so that I can talk to people about these topics.
2:05:39Well, hopefully yeah, hopefully we're pushing that message for you.
2:05:44Well, back anytime as you know, so Always good to catch up.
2:05:47I'll come back anytime and if you come back to Paris, give me a shout.
2:05:50Yes, I will let you know. We'll see you soon.
2:05:53Good stuff. Have a good one, dude.
2:05:56Oh man, I love talking to Ian. So cool. Um, let me quickly tell you about Hex, the AI analytics platform where trust meets insight. Hex helps teams of all sizes by giving teammates the ability to get insight from their data wherever they work. Go to hex.tech. We have John joining us. Let me just play a quick Yeah, great name.
2:06:20I should have done that when John joined. Maybe I'm going to do it again. Just just just wait.
2:06:26desk pop? Desk pop.
2:06:29Yeah, yeah. You like pre-fired it. Desk pop.
2:06:32They're coming in. Let's get him in here now. He can shoot the shoot the bottom thing. Let's go. Skyfall John coming to the studio.
2:06:41John, how are we, sir?
2:06:44I'm doing fine. Thank you guys for having me on. So, um That's an absolute pleasure.
2:06:49Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. So, um I'm ready for you talk.
2:06:52Let's go. Amazing, sir. And where are you calling from? Are you calling from Oslo?
2:06:57I'm calling from Oslo. So, we're in the middle of Oslo Innovation Week. So, the city is boiling over with a lot of international VCs and a lot of talented founders as well. So, it's it's a great time to be in Oslo.
2:07:07Amazing. Good to hear. Perfect crowd.
2:07:09How is How is the Innovation Week going?
2:07:11How's it going over there?
2:07:12No, I think it's amazing to see that every year it's the quality of the program increases and and even more fantastic investors and and also founders from abroad are flying in. So, it's uh you can see the flywheel going and and and things are picking up and I think it aligns with with everything we feel is going on in Norway now as well. Um piggybacking on the Nordic rise of of like yeah, the startup way.
2:07:38Let's go. We'd love to hear it. Um maybe just as a a brief introduction. Um first time on the show, obviously. Like Skyfall Ventures, the focus. Uh we'd love to just get a brief rundown and then we can get into a bunch of topics.
2:07:50Yeah, no. So, we're a pre-seed stage seed pre-seed seed stage operating out of Oslo, Norway with a Nordic mandate. Um been investing since 2016 with the fund structures in 2020 and we're just closed our last fund on 40 million euros this summer. So, um been hectic. Done 11 invest- investments this year. Um pretty generic. Looking for extraordinary talents.
2:08:17I think that's that's the gist of it, but um really looking for those with with the biggest dreams and ready to tackle on the the big problem problems in the world and back them early on.
2:08:28Is your is is your job getting harder today than it was back in the day? Like I feel that there's always there's a lot more going on, but there's a lot also like a lot more great opportunities out there. Um but I guess like with that comes noise. Like how are you navigating the space right now?
2:08:44I think think the scene we're operating in with technology is just amazing, right? So I guess you you you know that first hand and I think the the good thing about being an investor based in Norway is that we're still a maturing ecosystem. Um not that competitive. So so from our side to just see uh it is blossoming with a lot of new founders. We see a lot of serial founders now also understanding that the technology can enable totally different stuff this
2:09:11this time around. So I think for our part we're we're not that it's not that crowded as in other other Nordic capitals. So we're actually doing fine, but then again we see more and more investors looking at Norway as well. So the competition is picking up, but I think that's just necessarily for the ecosystem to continue to evolving as well. So right now I feel we're positioned in a very very good place.
2:09:35Yeah, yeah. I mean that there's ultimately going to be a compounding effect, which I think is net good, which is good. I'd love to understand the the Norwegian ecosystem and you know, kind of those those spikes that that show out in the ecosystem.
2:09:49What are the things that that Norway are incredibly good at?
2:09:52You know, what what are those kind of industries or or certain verticals that are you know, are making Norway such incredible ecosystem?
2:10:01I think on one side it's you also you need to get this flywheel effect where you have successes and you have role models bringing on starting their next company building founder factories. That enables people to see that this is actually possible and this is something that we see happening at an increasing pace and and larger scale.
2:10:20To the other hand I think we we have a long and proud industrial um heritage with especially from northern gas industry, from the maritime sector. So, we we have plenty of engineers and and talents that has been building amazing stuff in harsh conditions.
2:10:38Uh, and and they have they have the ability to really solve the hardest problems. The the challenge there is these talents has been building technology in large corporations without having to build the fundraising muscle, really understand how you gain momentum and start from scratch. But, I think both in combination with what technology now enables you to do that suddenly the like the cost curves goes down and and uh,
2:11:07it's much easier to also tackle really really hard problems. So, I think my dream for for Norway this year is like if we're able to in way combine that Silicon Valley mindset, that startup mindset and install it in these ecosystems where we have these massive talents, I think that's where you're going to see a lot of great companies coming out of Norway. And I think you already see it with with the companies like Hive Autonomy and also if you take Gleipnir Lithography which in
2:11:36in my opinion is maybe one of the most extraordinary companies in Europe these days. It's and and I think these companies will also become role models even increasing the flywheel.
2:11:46Yeah. Yeah, I mean you've probably seen it over the last decade. Uh, like how the ecosystem has changed and it's probably a question on like a bunch of other European countries. Like how do you level up an ecosystem? Like how do you find that flywheel effect? What have you seen that Norway's been doing a like a good job on in terms of leveling up the ecosystem? Is there is there like a playbook for it that you can pick up?
2:12:09Obviously you mentioned SF. It's always good to have some early winners and maybe they have an exit, maybe the capital for comes down, maybe people see them as role models. But, what what have you seen in terms of like a playbook if there even is one?
2:12:20No, I I think you you're you're touching upon it. It's all about having the people that know know the game and know know the pace and know what kind of the level of ambitions you need to set for yourself and also how fast you have to move.
2:12:34I think the challenge in Norway is that if you go back 20 years, 30 years, we've had a lot of founders that have succeeded, but unfortunately a lot of them moved out. So, they haven't been there as mentors.
2:12:46I started a company in in 2013 and it was sort of unheard of that you would quit a good paying job in in a corporate to start for yourself, but what we see now, I think there was something happening after the financial crisis on on on the back of wave of of web 2.0 and these founders are now either building their own companies the second time around.
2:13:10I talked about these founder factories that people really get to see that it's possible to to start out as a small team, pretty delusional and naive, and actually go all the way. And I think we've been very focused on understanding the levers in this flywheel and I think we're starting to pick up and really identified these kind of things and we're working a lot with with the founders with experience.
2:13:36And then of course, it's also important that you get these exits and you get liquidity back in the market. And I like my my my thesis for Norway is either we need the massive crisis because I know that we as a nation are able to really mobilize or we need role models. And it doesn't seem like we have a crisis on our doorstep just yet, but but that's but then again, it's all about building the role models. And I think for my part, I spent 9 years at at the company I founded and then uh
2:14:04in a way was done. We we surpassed our targets, way past our our wildest dreams, and then wanted to tackle new new challenges and then then you understand that if you have the ability to create trust in the capital markets and and get money ready for allocation in the ecosystem, that's also highly important job and then think for for my part that has been a founder and also my my colleagues and peers that started back 10 years ago. I think we are
2:14:33tightly knit community and we're spending a lot of time pushing the flywheel as well.
2:14:38Yeah. Some of the some of the conversations we had last week were a little bit surrounded around the in London specifically it's less common to just you know, fall into corporate and or it's more common to go and join a startup. It's more common to go and start a company. You know, that's not kind of like I guess looked down upon as it might have been in in the past.
2:15:03What is it like in the kind of early stage do you ecosystem in Norway? Do you feel like the founders that you're backing, the founders that are starting companies are getting younger. What is that kind of like early stage um you know, like school dropout type founder or one that you know, might have just finished university instead of going into corporate, they're now looking at either joining a startup or starting their own company. What is that like cuz that's a you know, obviously a huge driver for
2:15:32just increasing the talent pool who are starting companies?
2:15:36No, I think we we we see that more and more. I think it's maybe two buckets of of extraordinary companies and founder teams being built now and one is the serial founders that understand that this time around is totally different.
2:15:49You can move much faster combined with your domain insight and and and the knowledge of how to build a company, but then you also see number of college dropouts increases. You see a lot of students maybe it's a combination of of being worried about the job market going ahead, but I also think that they now see that the opportunities are are totally changing and uh it's it's been a it's been a change back from 2013, 2014. I think we got a
2:16:17setback in 2022, 2023, but now it's it's really uh back there and we see a lot of really young incredible talents and I think they see that they have the opportunity to to build companies much easier now because the barriers to start are gone, but I also see that their small open their learning curve is massively increasing due to all the tools they have now. So, it's I think we see these these movements that uh especially Stockholm has been been known for, but I
2:16:45think Helsinki and Oslo now is really picking up and really optimistic to see what what this motion will bring.
2:16:52Yeah. Yeah. And then uh Skyfall Ventures side, like where what sort of industries you getting is getting you the most excited right now? Like where are you trying to focus your time? And obviously AI is just connected to everything right now, but like is there an a robotics angle? You know, you mentioned maritime industry, like there are some really cool companies coming out um across like maritime in the US that we've had on the show on the show. Like where's your time split?
2:17:13No, I think for being an early-stage investor in such a small market, it's very hard to deep down on one sector and I think what we've learned looking at the best performers in our former investments is that it's all about the teams. If you're able to to have a super visionary team with extraordinary capabilities, ready to eat glass and do whatever it takes to just push through, uh then we see that you most likely have the ability to build in any sector. So, but I think in our
2:17:42last fund now, we've done we've invested in a rocket company building rockets going to space, we've invested in humanoids, we've invested in high which is doing automation of industrial machinery, but also done a lot of AI and native as a certain native services company. So, that it's it's very broad, but for our our part, it's just how How can we use that uh like the background of of seen through 10,000 startups, worked with a lot of great people, invested in a lot of great people, and find the
2:18:11patterns that really makes the extraordinary team stands out.
2:18:15Yeah, yeah. Did you maybe last one and we've only got about a minute a minute left, but do you feel that you have like a unique advantage cuz you've been through the founder journey before? Like what does that give you as an investor?
2:18:26For sure. I think it gives a lot of credibility in terms of people know and you really know what it takes and how hard it is. So I think just the understanding of of the founder situation, I think they appreciate that. I think I think you deeply really believe that a small team from start can can build something really really big and I think that also brings some of the
2:18:53the confidence that we bring in as well as a supporter for the team. So for sure and then that has helped us as well to to attract and allow to invest in a lot of great founders and that is it's also a flywheel, but when when you have great founders in your portfolio as well, that's a really strong magnet. But I think like being an investor these days where signaling and and recognizing and identifying team early on is something everyone can do. I think it's all about going back to the personal relationship
2:19:23that you're able to build with the founders and and make them really believe that you're a supporter and and even though the rest of the world thinks you're delusional, there's someone there that we're ready to back you and I think so it's either to push the ambitions the founders ambitions or if there are if ambitions are at the right level, we're we're there to support them in that belief and I think that's one of our edges and and why we're able to invest in such such an amount of of great people.
2:19:49Yeah, awesome. John, thank you so much for joining us. That is time and we have our next guest in the waiting room, but I appreciate you tuning in. Sounds like everything's kicking off Oslo Innovation Week uh yeah, more than welcome to come back on anytime.
2:20:00Thanks. Thanks for having me, guys.
2:20:01You're doing a great job.
2:20:03Really appreciate it, mate. Have a good one.
2:20:05Just had to get that in there.
2:20:07Let me just tell you about BVNK, accelerating the global money movement. BVNK provides enterprise-grade stablecoin infrastructure for global businesses, enabling fast, compliant payments and digital asset solutions worldwide. Get it at bvnk.com. I'm entertained indeed. We have another John joining us.
2:20:25Another John coming in.
2:20:27It's a billion dollars.
2:20:28excited about that time. We need that uh that that movie uh we need that you know, what's the the line on that?
2:20:36I'm sure John John probably catches up with the the founder of Napster all the time. Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure that uh [laughter] Yeah, yeah, Justin.
2:20:46Um I wonder how they thought about the film when when it first came out. Be interesting to I don't know. I'm sure he answers answers these questions.
2:20:52wait. I mean, John came [laughter] in as CEO. He had to like take on the burden of uh you know, the Justin Timberlake side of it.
2:20:57questions and now we're going to ask them.
2:20:58get John in here. John, hello, sir. How you doing?
2:21:04uh it's a pleasure to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us.
2:21:07Thank you so much for uh inviting me on. I'm excited to chat.
2:21:11Uh our absolute pleasure. Uh John, give give us give us what's happening uh give us the story what's happening at Napster. Uh give us maybe uh a brief introduction as to what is the core focus today and maybe a little bit on the journey as well through the times.
2:21:24Yeah, we we we bought Napster uh about 18 months ago and we sort of stopped what everybody knows Napster to be, which is streaming music, and we made a shift with the brand to streaming intelligence. And so, we're doing that through agents. And uh what we believe to be, you know, absolutely the best agents in the market. Uh these agents have real memory. They work not just in an online world, but we've created
2:21:53hardware products for them to, you know, live and operate in the real world. So, so it's a new kind of Napster. And we're super excited that, you know, we've been able to sync up with Microsoft and we're now native in Azure. We've got a lot of very, very exciting uh projects happening around the world.
2:22:14Let's talk about that shift. Um you know, how how do you go in I didn't realize it, you know, this this is such a kind of a young shift. You know, it's only 18 months ago. Um I I'd love to understand how do you How do you think about that? Um because, you know, that is an incredibly hard job to be able to to be able to make that happen. That, you know, we've seen a few companies kind of do the, you know, the the the pivot or the kind of shift into the kind of the new realm. And I'd love to understand how you How do you guys think about that?
2:22:43Well, we think we're on the same mission. And that same mission, you know, for us is disruption and and and making a real change. And our big, big focus is on owning data, making sure that our customers, enterprises, and businesses own their data, own their customer.
2:23:01And we think that's That That really is what the future of AI needs to be. I'm not saying it's going to be, it's what it needs to be. And so we're really hyper-focused on allowing our customers to sort of capture data, which is what we believe our agent does perfectly. Uh and from that data then, you know, learn from that and then execute on actioning it. And do that in in platform and places that they own, like their website, like their retail stores if
2:23:31that's applicable, or in the workplace. Uh we think it's just super important. And as we've seen AI unfold, we see more and more where people's ideas, um which obviously ideas lead to innovation, are being kind of taken by models and and and that's scary for us.
2:23:51So we want to send that signal that you know, businesses specifically need to preserve those ideas and ultimately preserve innovation which preserves humanity. It sounds like such a huge mission but let's think about it. You know, Napster in its earlier iteration had had that same mission about freeing music, making it digital, not having us buy a whole album for whatever $17 or whatever. So it was equally a large mission and they succeeded. Right?
2:24:20Through failure they were successful.
2:24:23Yeah, yeah. Last one on on on like the old times and then would love to jump into, you know, the future looking ahead like from my perspective like what what makes it such like an interesting acquisition target in terms of what you want to do today. Like were there you mentioned a few parallels between the two and like the messaging and the and the journey that they were on and the the philosophy behind what their end goal was and and and I guess the beginning of your goal.
2:24:47Like why why Napster? Was there a particular thing that was like ah this makes a lot of sense. Let's just you know, pick it up and Well, I you know, I think that the core company Napster, you know, we bought it from Al Gore and I think there was an amazing amount of technology that they were working on but never released. It was super exciting for us on blockchain.
2:25:07So I think Napster was working hard to become something new and just never finished that journey and we were able to pick up the ball and and really give it a new purpose, a new brand, a new a new disruption which we think was important and to continue that that mantle. So you know, there was there was a lot of hidden treasure that we picked up with Napster aside from the name.
2:25:32Yeah, really cool. Really cool.
2:25:33How much weight did the does the name have?
2:25:37You know, you mentioned the side of the side of the name. Is is that are Are still educating customers on on the new shift like yeah, how much does the the kind of name matter?
2:25:47I think we are but what we drive home to our customer which instantly makes them understand is that our model, our approach to our customer is capture, learn, act, own.
2:25:59And when they understand that that is completely different from what Anthropic and others are saying. They're saying give us everything. It's going to be fine. Trust us. Okay and and and everything will be fine. Right. Why?
2:26:13[laughter] And we're doing the opposite, right? So so I think Napster is really sending this very powerful signal of wait, don't be quiet. Let's speak up. Let's Let's Let us give you a voice. Let us give you a business plan. And you know, business intelligence and this is important. You know, business intelligence has been around for a long time in different forms and formats where businesses can be you know, in charge of their own data. Real-time data that we're talking about when you're having a conversation
2:26:41with an agent both online or in your store, that's brand new.
2:26:46And you've got to really put a lot of thought and process behind who processes that data whether you build your own model. And we see Microsoft and Nvidia as unbelievable partners on that journey and others. Intel, there's many partners that really see the world back in the same era that Napster came from which is throw a server in a room, control that distribution of of intelligence whether it's your website then today it'll be your
2:27:14intelligence. And so that's that's the path that we are supporting. Um So we're we're we're super excited about it.
2:27:22Awesome. Awesome. Awesome.
2:27:23Awesome awesome mission.
2:27:24I think when we were chatting a bit offline with your team like something we wanted to cover was like companies today not seeing ROI particularly in in the way that they may have wanted to like we still feel that there's been like a lag effect of you know, test, apply, and then the ROI is kind of slightly in that phase. We're kind of just starting it maybe, but historically I've not been seeing it.
2:27:45We'd love to get your thoughts around why do you think this is? What is maybe a new structure that you guys believe is the best way to go about it?
2:27:54Wow, I mean what a what that's the right question, right? I mean we've seen so many companies just fail at AI. I think they're on this let's cut to the bottom thinking. Uh let how many people can we displace? How can we save? Um rather than focus on that blue sky. Um and and and and the blue sky is where we live, which is I mean imagine how many websites today can you talk to a video agent and say this is what I want, this
2:28:23is why I'm here, but but from a company perspective, they're able to talk to an online customer and find out and this is the important part, find out not why 3% are buying, which is the typical conversion, but why are 97% not?
2:28:40That's a stark number.
2:28:43That's it that's it. That's that's the blue sky. And so when you start investing into why 97% aren't buying your product and you find out maybe it's about product color or distribution or or a lack of of of of of transparency or product description. Um those initiatives change how businesses see AI because now it's an investment into them grabbing market share, them earning and retaining customers. That's
2:29:13the business intelligence that matters.
2:29:14Why are 97% not buying my website?
2:29:17Um and so that's where we focus our customers and that's a shift from let's you know, let's fire Henry in in in in this department because you know, we can replace him with AI. I and and that's why you know, that initiative of of sort of displacing humans, it's it's it's it's very scary to sort of assume that that the human mind can be replaced by a machine.
2:29:45Um it it it it is. It's very scary. But the world that we live in, we don't we don't see that replacement occurring. We see those ideas and innovation leading to what makes it for consumers to buy those products. And and humans drive that that demand.
2:30:02Um but but it's all an approach. You know, there's there's a whole 'nother group of people that that are there is you know, selling sort of this uh different world, different future state.
2:30:11What are what are kind of customer-facing agents like missing now?
2:30:15Cuz you you know, you you you you mentioned about the you know, the the kind of um the downsides of the approach uh towards, you know, focusing on internal tools for for a company. And obviously, you know, customer-facing agents is the opportunity that you guys are going going for. Um I'd love to understand like what are they missing now to create that you know, to to I guess uh get that 97% number down to 50% or even zero.
2:30:40Like uh you know, how how think being a human is possible. I mean, we are so focused on make I mean, you know, I I understand the uncanny valley.
2:30:47You know, we have all of those things. I just it's that good where we're able to create these agents that feel like a person. You know, what's missing when you are talking to a human to a machine is the ability to to have empathy, the ability to have emotion, ability to understand. Machines have never really been able to do that until now.
2:31:10So, matching that really matters. You know, one of the conversations that we have started to have more publicly is that you know, our products that really is not just being built for today, but it's being built to understand how can a human talk to a machine and ultimately it's a robotics problem.
2:31:30Um when you start thinking about robots coming into the workplace, coming into the home, start becoming more and more a part of our society, which is absolutely going to happen, the work that we are doing today is laying that foundation for having a better more human interaction versus that machine interaction. So, when we when we say, "Well, what is it like to have this interaction and what are you doing?" We want the most human-like interaction and to find out where are we failing, how can we do better,
2:31:58um how can we continue to make this as human as possible so that we can have these relationships with machines that we need to have. Um we need to because they're going to be here um whether we want them or not. I mean, obviously the capital is pushing towards robotics in a big way and the innovation is significant year over year. It's It's not it's significant. I'm sure you guys know.
2:32:21Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. How do you How do you see um uh Napster in the next 5 years, right?
2:32:26Like you mentioned, I'm sure that few times you'll probably have to try and in conversation shake off the old Napster and people might associate the brands and and whatnot. Like you guys are on a a completely independent new mission that's that's, you know, filled with innovation. It's in all the right sectors. It's a an emerging technology.
2:32:41How do you see Napster in 5 years? Like what is the message to the public that you'd want them to know about Napster today?
2:32:48We're We're We're We're independent and neutral. So, we sit on top of all language models. We sit on top of your own business intelligence and we help you execute that capture, learn, act.
2:32:58And And I think as we continue to to grow, we become that tool that tip of the spear that businesses need to have the interactions with their customers or their audiences, um etc. And I And I think the fact that we are just hyper-focused on that layer and that layer only and making sure that behind that layer is a is a business that owns it, that owns that intelligence, that owns the ability to create their own models. You know, we're not just native in Azure, we're
2:33:28native in Foundry, which is where models are created. You know, Microsoft understands deeply the importance of a business being able to have the tip of the spear, where you're having that customer interaction, and then owning that that all of that underneath that that that fabric, the foundation of your house that you're building in AI, you better own it. And businesses are leasing it. And you know, we we you know, I think businesses are really starting to get the clue now that they need to own their buildings, their homes, their foundation that they build
2:33:57on. So, in the next 5 years I see as businesses expand into robotics, they expand into that interaction, we we we firmly believe we'll be at the tip of that spear where that data collected will go into their infrastructure and make them better and smarter for their customers.
2:34:12Yeah. John, really cool. We are we are out of time unfortunately, but thank you so much for joining the show. Thank you. It sounds like you guys are crushing it. We'd love to have you back on sometime as well.
2:34:21Thank you. Appreciate you guys for having me. Have a good one.
2:34:24Have a good one. Have a good one.
2:34:25[clears throat] Awesome stuff. John Kountouris, CEO at Naps ladies and gentlemen. That is the show.
2:34:31Yeah. Before we do that, leave a big thank you behind with our Alex financial platform built for the pace of modern business. Multi-currency accounts, corporate cards, expense management, online payments, all in one platform. Get it at alex.com. Guys, that is just a show. Thank you very much for joining us. That was an incredible show.
2:34:49Absolutely insane. [music] Um we we do a daily op-ed at etnshow.co. We release it every day at 12:00 p.m. UK times, you never miss a show. We will see you subscribing there, and we'll see you tomorrow at 12:00 p.m. UK time.
2:35:03Ciao. Love you loads. Bye.
2:35:05Big big guest big guest tomorrow.