0:00So, Carolyn, today we have a very exciting and kind of unexpected guest.
0:08Today we have Tyler Schultz, who was, as most people will know, one of the very first whistleblowers in the Theronos fraud story. He's the grandson of George Schultz, who was the former Secretary of State, who was also on the Theronos board. And Tyler was an employee at Theronos, uh, fresh out of Stanford. and he began to notice some things weren't quite what they seemed at the company and started some raising some questions
0:36and concerns. Very quickly things escalated and he became like a target of threats and lawsuits and all this stuff at Theronos and was gas lit. His story is incredible and it's covered in the book Bad Blood by the Wall Street Journal reporter John Kery Rue who first broke the story.
0:59Which is an amazing book and I highly recommend it. Um, and we are thrilled to have you here today, Tyler. Welcome.
1:07Yeah, I'm happy to be here. Thanks so much for having me.
1:09You're welcome. So glad you're here, Tyler. I was thinking about this as I I reread Bad Blood and was just so fascinated by it. I feel like your crazy story is kind of in two different parts where you were at Theronos as an employee and then there was the crazy story after you had resigned and were no longer an employee. Right.
1:32Yeah. It's funny on on my last day when I left Theronos, I felt like, oh great, this story is finally over for me. Little did I know it was just the beginning of the next chapter, like the horror movie where the the creature comes back to get you. If we think about it like that, maybe we'll start with part one when you were an employee at the company.
1:53To start at the very beginning, um to give a little bit of context, I was a junior at Stanford at the time and my grandfather actually lived and worked on campus. Um so he actually lived down the street from some like fraternity houses in fact. So, one day I got a call from him and he said, "I'm having this brilliant woman come over to my house and I think you would learn a lot if you came over and listened in on the discussion." So, I didn't have a whole lot of context, but it sounded interesting. So, I biked over to his house and that's where I met Elizabeth for the first time. And of course, you
2:22know, she was wearing her very famous black turtleneck as Caroline is wearing right now right now.
2:31Uh yeah, I that did not go unnoticed. Don't worry. By the way, it's also like 100 degrees in the East Bay today, so it's really it's a choice.
2:40Wow. Wow. Wow. Yeah, you're dedicated right now. Um, so yeah, she was wearing this black turtleneck modeled after Steve Jobs. She I saw her piercing blue eyes, heard her deep voice that was almost like hypnotic. Um, she was the type of person where as soon as she starts speaking, the rest of the room would just go silent. Like she had this way of just like locking in an audience.
3:02And when she spoke to you, she made you feel like you were the most important person in her entire world in that moment. Like she had this amazing ability to make you feel really good and feel connected to her and feel connected to a vision and a mission. And it was incredibly charismatic at now. I think when you look back people go like, "Wow, this lady was so weird. Clearly a psychopath, but at the time like it felt like you were talking to the next Steve Jobs." And that's where I heard her lay out her vision for Theronos, which was that anything a central laboratory could
3:32do, she her technology could do with just a single drop of blood. And you could do it anywhere you had access to electricity. So you didn't need to be in a laboratory. So you could do these tests in battlefields, in medevac helicopters, in operating rooms, in patients homes, and Walgreens and Safeways. And it just seemed like it had no limitations and that it did truly have the ability to revolutionize the way that we practice healthcare. So I was completely sold. I wanted to be part of this company. I remained in touch
4:01with Elizabeth. She kind of like became one of my mentors and she actually urged me to switch my major from mechanical engineering to biology.
4:09So I ended I ended up I was a bio major at Stanford for two quarters but somehow managed to graduate with that on the diploma.
4:17Um and then I went and worked for theos first job out of college.
4:21You had interned there though, hadn't you?
4:24Yes. So I did I interned between my junior and senior year but overall you know the internship was very smooth. I was working in a research lab. Retrospectively the biggest red flag about that internship was that I was working with people who had been there for like three, four, five years and none of them had ever seen the product that we were working on.
4:44Oh it had been that long? They'd been working there for that long.
4:47Yeah. There were people who had been working there for years who had never seen the product and everything was so siloed like there were locked doors, there were barricades, there were overreaching NDAs, you were told not to talk to co-workers about work and this was all under the the guise of protecting trade secrets and there were Chinese spies trying to steal their technology and their quest and labcore who had, you know, who were trying to steal their technology and get ahead of them and
5:16figure out what they were And so I kind of bought those reasons at the time. And a lot of startups begin in stealth mode.
5:23Not within the company though, Tyler.
5:26But see, that's the problem. When you have no reference points, when it's your first real experience outside of a university, you don't really know that that's not normal, right? Um tell and and your parting comment from a colleague as you're heading back to Stanford that was sort of ominous.
5:48Right. So I did have one colleague and I got along with her really well and we just happened to you know eat breakfast at the same time meet up for lunch and we did not talk about work. People took that very seriously. She worked in a different lab with a different key. We never talked about work. We were just friends. And I remember on my last day as an intern when I was leaving, she just said, "You shouldn't come back here. You should go somewhere else and learn how to do real science."
6:11And I was completely taken aback because I felt like I was doing real science in the research lab that I was doing.
6:17Um I wasn't working with the with the device directly.
6:21So I felt like I was part of this big vision and that I kind of brushed that comment off. I didn't pay all that much attention to it unfortunately.
6:28What what was your lab doing? You said you weren't working on the device. So what what were you doing that summer?
6:34So we were engineering antibodies, okay, that would be used in the blood tests. So we are very far downstream. So we would develop these antibodies.
6:43Eventually we would pass them off to the team that would actually develop the test. So then they would use this one reagent to develop the blood test and then they would pass it off to a team that would validate that blood test and basically say this is safe and effective for patients to use. and then they would pass it off to a production team who would then scale it up and have other types of quality controls. Then they would pass it off to the team that would actually run real patient samples. So that's how far removed my team was.
7:10So we were working on one small piece.
7:12But what was crazy is that at every single one of those passoff points, there were intentional impediments to communication, which is crazy. We developed these antibodies, but we were not allowed to talk to the team that would use those antibodies to develop the test. And you just can't do science that way. It won't work. You can't move fast enough. Yeah.
7:32Um you can't work in silos like that.
7:35And I've a lot of people refused to. I think a lot of their top employees, they did a really good job of hiring and they did not do a very good job of retaining top talent. Some people would come and in a few weeks they would leave and that should have been also more of a red flag to me. You were young though.
7:51So you you go back to college, you finish your senior year, and you have a job at Theronos waiting for you.
7:59So Right. And then you're in a new department, right?
8:03Yeah. So very quickly, when I come back to work full-time, I was originally put back into the same research lab.
8:09But coincidentally, my first day happened to be the day that Theronos launched their product. And so it was a very interesting time to be there. Very exciting time to be there.
8:18Wow. Um like literally um Elizabeth did the ribbon cutting ceremony at Walgreens in Palo Alto on Monday and my first job was the next day Tuesday morning.
8:27But on that day the manager of this assay validation team which was also called the Eliza lab. Eliza is like the aminoassay. It's a very specific type of blood test.
8:37But essentially her job was to manage the team that validated these blood tests before they could be used on real patients. And on my first day she quit. And I don't really know the whole story.
8:49Yeah. My very first day, um, I was in a team. I was in a group of scientists. Someone comes over and says, you know, this person's out in the parking lot crying right now. I was told she had some kind of like screaming match with Sunny and Elizabeth and then was fired and was literally in the parking lot crying. And then my manager pulled our team aside and said that things are crazy in this assay validation team because we just launched the product, but we have zero tests that have been validated on the Theronos platform, but we weren't actually using
9:18the product for anything. So if a patient went into Walgreens, first of all, they would not get a finger prick. They would get a needle in their arm the same way you would get at Quester Labcore.
9:27And then that test would not be run on a Theronos product. It would be sent to other labs or it would be tested at Theronos on third party equipment that we bought by Seammens or Ro and yeah and you knew all like this was all disclosed to you as this was going on or not.
9:41This is like first day. Yeah, this was like first day.
9:45Um something is not right. Like that that's the first sign something is not right.
9:48Hold on Tyler just to pile on to Carolyn. You didn't realize that the tests were being tested on Seammen's machines, right? or did you at this on your first day?
9:59At that very moment, I did not know exactly what happened to those blood samples.
10:04At that day, I just knew that we weren't really using the devices that we had supposedly launched.
10:10And are you telling yourself like, okay, well, it's a weird first day, things are weird, but like it's going to be fine, or were you like, oh, this may really be bad. Like, how how did you measure it?
10:20I felt like all was well. I thought, you know, yeah, I I I it didn't raise as big of a red flag as it should have. And we had an all hands company meeting that same day that was hugely celebratory. People were like riding high because we had been in stealth mode for 11 years. And finally we were launching this product and telling the world about what our mission was. It was incredibly exciting and I absolutely got caught up in that.
10:44Um and I even though so that was my first day I felt I actually thought that I would work at Theronos for my entire career. I thought I could work there for 30 years and retire. I thought that was the most likely path.
10:59Okay. So then let's talk about some of the red flags you start seeing. And I have to just remind the audience that you are what 22 years old at this time and this is your first job out of college.
11:16Yeah, I think I was 22 when I first started working there.
11:19Okay. So when more red flags start popping up is when I actually see the device. And that happens because this validation team that I talked about earlier, people were quitting like dropping like flies. It was a revolving door. People would come in, they would get burned out, they would leave. Um, this team was literally working through the night. Someone had to be running experiments every hour of the 24-hour day. and Sunny would do walkthroughs of the lab at 3 in the morning to make sure
11:47that there were people in there actually working. And they were just desperate to get a test validated on this platform so that something could be run on the Theronos devices. Um, and that thing actually did end up happening fairly quickly. So, it was probably a matter of days or weeks after we launched that we did get the first test validated on Theronos platform and that was HBA1C, which is a notoriously very easy test to do.
12:12Okay. Um but anyway, so this lab people were dropping like flies and we get an email from Sunny I think on that Friday.
12:18So at the end of my first week that said like scrap all of your experiments, all the research teams are being moved to validation because we just need more people on the front lines. And it did truly feel like the front lines of the company because the lab that had all these devices was even named Normandy.
12:36Um, so you're being which is, you know, a name a questionable name to begin with. The idea was behind the name Normandy was that Theronos was like storming the beaches of healthcare. I guess um but really it just felt like, you know, it was it was just not a good place to be. No one wants to be on the beaches of Normandy.
13:01Yeah. And and for the people that were like I think like your grandfather who at least fought in World War II, like how insulting that was one of the craziest things. I would have thought that would be very insulting to someone who actually did fight in World War II. Um Elizabeth was this master marketer and could spin things all kinds of ways. So I think he probably saw that as a positive.
13:25Okay, I'm sorry to do this, but Sunonny Balwani, was he like a wacko from the start? Did you have a bad vibe about him from the very beginning? Um, unlike Elizabeth who you were enthralled by.
13:38I always got a bad vibe from Sunny. I think almost everyone got a bad vibe from Sunny. Um, like even my grandparents, they became very close to Elizabeth. Like she was coming to our family Christmases and Thanksgivings and birthday parties and they never wanted to invite Sunny. Like they only invited Sunny when they absolutely had to because he's just a hard person to be around. like he I I would describe him as having like the personality of
14:04gravel. Um he's just like very he's just a very abrasive person. Um and what's interesting with all these lawsuits is that we can actually see text messages that are exchanged between like Sunny and Elizabeth. And I think like that personality really shows now in the public record in the way that he texts.
14:23like when they discovered that I was a source, uh, well, first when they were looking for sources, he said things like, um, I've narrowed it down to five people. We're going to nail this And then and then after the Elizabeth says like, it's definitely Tyler. He texted something like, knocking legs off one at a time is the best way. Like he he he like speaks and acts and talks like a mob boss.
14:47Yeah. He I feel like if I had ever met him, he would be the biggest red flag immediately. I'd be like, something is going wrong at this company if it's sort of being run by him. He walted in there and started running it, right?
15:00Yeah. He certainly seemed to be running things on the inside. He was managing the lab. He was the person who was bullying employees to run patient samples despite quality control failures. Um, and I think that was intentionally set up by Elizabeth and Sunny. She wanted to keep this very angelic figure. She was the darling of healthcare of Silicon Valley. She was the youngest self-made female billionaire. She was quote unquote doing
15:27good, doing well by doing good. And so I think she wanted to run the company the way Sunny was running it, but she knew that she wanted to be able to preserve this public persona that she had um that resonated really well with investors and board members in the media. And she also, you know, she wanted to run the company like Apple. And this was, I think, her interpretation of how Steve Jobs ran Apple. And I think to some extent that is true. Apple was uh
15:54notoriously pretty tough work culture, but I do not think that it was anything like this. I just can't imagine Apple being able to accomplish the things they did running an organization the way that this organization was run, which was filled with threats, bullying, and lies and gaslighting. Right.
16:16Yes. a lot of gaslighting.
16:18Tell us the depth of the gaslighting because this is actually what I'm almost most intrigued by by the story is the level of gaslighting and people not being able to say, "Whoa, the emperor has no clothes here. What's going on?"
16:33Yeah, it's it's a tough question to answer. Like, if you talk to someone who's been gaslit, it can sometimes be really hard to describe the ways that it has happened.
16:41Um, but she just created this alternate reality that it seemed like everyone was living in. And she was able to do this in a number of different ways. So, she surrounded herself with very credible people and allowed all those credible people to point to someone else as the person who really knew what was going on. Um, and unfortunately, my grandfather was one of those key people where a lot of people pointed to him and said, "George Schultz knows what he's doing. Um, he's made a lot of good decisions in his life. I'm going to trust that he's made a good judgment
17:09call here and follow him into this.
17:12And that's kind of how she put the whole board together.
17:14Um, but then within the company, the way it happened was she basically built this culture of fear over the course of 10 years. And I think in a really important lesson, I know a lot of your audience are founders obviously. I think a good lesson here is that culture does not happen by accident and it does not happen overnight. And for Theronos, this happened over the course of a decade.
17:36They intentionally built a culture of fear over the course of 11 years where any time someone disagreed or questioned Elizabeth, they were fired. And in some cases after they were fired, they were sued. And when they were sued, they sent out companywide emails about it that basically said, if you read the subtext, the it said, "We will sue you, too, if you get in our way. We will destroy your life if you try to to come up against us." And when people see that feedback
18:04loop, they stop speaking up.
18:07And by the time people like Erica and I get there, you're all of a sudden dropped into a culture where everybody sees all these red flags. Like I'd say when I was there, every single person essentially knew that this was a fraud.
18:18Everyone who worked with that device knew that it could not test 300 things in a single drop of blood and knew that it was not giving accurate results. But nobody was willing to speak up because we had seen this feedback loop so many times. And what people would do is they would quit.
18:33And sometimes people were even too afraid to quit. And I remember I had one pretty, you know, very close co-orker who when he quit, he actually bought a house in another state, came in on a Friday, put in a full day's work, left his badge on his desk, walked out the door, and by Monday he was in another state, and just never came back. He was like, he was just too afraid to even give notice.
18:55Oh my god. I cannot believe that story. He bought a house in a different state and was literally afraid to leave the company.
19:03Like he was afraid to leave the company.
19:05That's so I was just going to say the envi the at the time um you know obviously people were quitting a lot. There were other jobs ahead. This was not a bad economic period for the US. So there must have been lots of other jobs people with this kind of expertise and talent could go do. So the fact that they put up with this paranoid horrible environment for this long is astonishing. It's a hard phenomenon to describe because I think people will naturally think, well, they had stock options, right?
19:34But we didn't like employees did not.
19:37Like Theronos was a rare startup that almost gave no stock options to anybody.
19:44Wait, what did So what was their rationale? What did they Why? Because everyone else was doing it around them.
19:49Yeah. Yeah. So, I think the rationale for a lot of people was people had mortgages, they had spouses, they had student debt, they had children, um they had visas that were dependent on working at the company. So, I think there were a lot of rationalizations to stay and I think there were a lot of people who were able to make those rational rationalizations and basically say, you know, I'm not the person making these decisions. I'm coming in and I'm doing what I'm told. I'm doing my job. um like
20:17and they kind of felt like they had you know their hands were relatively clean um because they weren't the ones making the call. They were just executing.
20:25But also a lot of people just did not stay very long. Like people would come and they would do that for a while. Some people would come in and feel like I can I can make I can activate change in this organization and try and fail and leave.
20:38And it truly was a revolving door. I wish there was a way to to actually count how many total employees went through that company. Did you ever talk to your friends who didn't work at the so like you know I know you didn't talk about work with your co-workers you said but like did you ever you know friends you went to school with and you were comparing job experiences and were you like what he couldn't Carolyn but so you never even talked to your friends outside of theos about it.
21:04Well at some at at some point I did start talking about it because I did you know I wanted a sanity check.
21:10And so I did that both within the company and outside the company. And within the company, I would talk to my colleagues and even my managers who I trusted and basically say like, "Am I the crazy one here?" And everyone said, "No, you're not crazy.
21:21This technology doesn't work. It's not going to work." Um, and then I would, you know, I would talk to my friends, like you said, about their work experiences. And, um, at the time I lived in a house with five people, and I would come home and I would complain about my job. And to be honest, no one really took me that seriously. Everyone everyone would kind of say like, "Yeah, everyone hates their first job." It's just like part of uh part of career development is hating your first job. And I would say like I really think this is different.
21:48It it could be partly that I wasn't sharing enough details, but a lot of my complaints I think fell on mostly deaf ears within my circle of friends.
21:56But you weren't you you really were prohibited from sharing details about your job more than anyone I've ever heard of from what I've read about this.
22:06Yes, absolutely. I mean, my grandfather was on the board and I wouldn't tell him about the details of my job because I felt like I was not allowed to tell a board member about what my job was. When I reached out to regulators, I felt like I have to get a fake email and a fake name and still reach out to this regulator anonymously because I felt like my NDAs and all these um let's just how how seriously they took secrecy prevented me from talking to government regulators.
22:30Yeah. And even the first time that I ever called a lawyer, um, I hung up before they answered because I felt like I was not allowed to talk to a lawyer.
22:40And this again comes back to being at that time I was probably 23 years old and just not having enough life experience to realize like how much you should be able to trust your lawyer. I had never worked with a lawyer in my life. You know, maybe I had a family friend that was a lawyer or something like that, but I never like really understood um the role of a lawyer. And so I was too afraid and and that was not just the NDAs. It was the culture of of bullying and um you know all that.
23:07Were you talking to your parents about it though?
23:10I was talking to my parents. I probably shared with them um a lot more than I shared with my friends.
23:18And my parents always believed me. Like that was one nice thing. They always believed me and they just wanted me to get out of the situation safely really. Yeah. Yeah.
23:28Um, so their advice to me would was like, you should just quietly leave. Tell maintain your your relationship with Elizabeth. Tell her that you've just decided that you really want to do a PhD and that will help your career and just quietly leave. Um, I obviously did not do that.
23:44Okay, let's go let's go back to the story though because there's so many important points that lead up to that when you emailed is it the New York State Lab Department of Health?
23:56Department of Health. So there were some red major red flags. There were two specifically that you wanted to address with Elizabeth, right?
24:04Yeah, there were many that I wanted to address with Elizabeth. Um but just so to to quickly go through the red flags.
24:11So it was just like one was the Theronos device could not test for more than one thing at a time. So like even if it works, you're still limited to testing one thing at a time. It was not a standalone device. So, if you put this in a in a medevac helicopter, you would also need to put this fancy pipe heading robot up in the helicopter with it. Um, it's just totally impractical.
24:35Um, it could not, we did not have 300 tests validated. By the time I left, we had seven tests that were validated. So, um, we're not even coming close to what Elizabeth is saying. Then when regulators actually came in to give us our certification to be a central lab, so to be um to get our clea certification, the door to Normandy was locked and we were told not to go in or out of that room that day. And that was so that the regulators wouldn't see activity in that room. They wouldn't go in there and start asking questions and
25:04actually see that the the proprietary equipment. They were only shown the lab that was called Jurassic Park that had the the Seammens and RO equipment. Um, and at the time, by the way, the board was being told that the only reason they had that equipment was for validation and that every single test was being run on the Theronos device. And Theronos even had shell corporations purchase the third party equipment to hide the fact that they were doing so much of this testing on third party equipment. Um, I didn't know that at the time, but um, I
25:31did eventually learn that. Um and then some of the some more red flags were that there were times when um we conducted this essentially an audit with the New York State Department of Health and in my opinion we cheated on that audit. We ran tests both on the Theronos device and on thirdparty equipment but only reported the results from the third party equipment to the auditors even though in some cases the results were different by more than 300%. So the results are wildly different and I
26:00realize that when management knows they're being watched, they know that they need that they cannot give the result of a Theronos test because the regulator will know that the answer is wrong, right?
26:11But if it if it was an unsuspecting patient who walked into Walgreens, they were perfectly comfortable knowingly giving them incorrect medical information. So that was a huge huge red flag.
26:21Yeah. Another instance of that is when quality controls failed in the lab and Sunny would pressure employees to run patient samples despite the quality control failures. And that is again a clear indication that you know this test isn't working because the quality control failed, but we don't care. We're going to charge the patient their $10 and give them incorrect medical information. And so the red flags were just piling up. When you explain that to
26:48us, it seems so clear that this is not working and something needs to change. I just want to throw that in there. It just seems so clearly wrong.
27:00Yes. And this is why I felt like I was living in the Twilight Zone. And this is part of the gaslighting cuz you're like, "Everyone has to be seeing this, right?"
27:08And you talk to people and you learn that everybody is seeing it and they're just too afraid to say anything about it. And it it it just it still to me feels like the Twilight Zone. like it's so obvious and it's funny because I often talk about this um for like ethics symposiums and things like that and to me like it's not even an ethics question cuz like to me ethics is when you have um competing values and you have to decide which value is going to to win out.
27:35This was like it's not an ethical question. It's clear right versus wrong.
27:40Clearly. Yeah. Um um and then for the for me a lot of these problems came to a head when we validated syphilis and the syphilis test clearly was not working. We tested patients that were known to be positive for syphilis and we only got like 65% correct. So we had 65% sensitivity. We essentially deleted that data and tried again. The next time we got 80% sensitivity and then we tested samples that were assumed to be negative for syphilis. And for that test, we would
28:08test ourselves and test our colleagues. And over 20% of us tested positive for syphilis, which is absolutely insane because for a diagnostic test, typically you can tune it so that you can have really high sensitivity and low specificity or really high specificity and low sensitivity. And in this case, we were getting very low sensitivity and very low specificity, which just means your test doesn't work.
28:33And this is a sexually transmitted disease.
28:35Yeah. Yes, highly communicable. Um, and syphilis is really scary because your symptoms can disappear while you still have it and it can reemerge decades later and cause serious serious health problems.
28:48And so it was clear to me that this test didn't work. But um, we finished the validation study and the medical doctor signed off on it and said, "This is safe and effective and we're going to start testing real patients for syphilis." And I when I got that news, I literally fel felt like I had gotten punched in the stomach. Like I felt sick to my stomach. I thought I might throw up.
29:09Um but most of my lab mates kind of celebrated because they didn't have to repeat all these um validation experiments.
29:17And that's when I felt like I really have to start raising my concerns. So that's when I started reaching out to the New York State Department of Health. I started talking to my colleagues more, to my managers. um eventually a vice president, the president and COO, the CEO, a board member, and at every single turn I was either ignored, gaslit, bullied, and threatened.
29:43I just It's amazing. So, you didn't you email this concern? You tried to talk in person to Elizabeth, and didn't she say, "Oh, just email it to me." Right. And you had confirmed, this is important to the story, had you not confirmed with the New York Health Department, state health department, that yes, indeed, this was illegal the way they did this.
30:06Yeah. So, again, you know, I'm not a lawyer, but I went and actually read the laws that governed central laboratories, and I felt like we broke the law. And I um I actually briefly spoke to the vice president about this and he brushed me off and kind of said he was more concerned about the fact that I knew that they had cheated on it and was asking me like had I seen the data or just heard about it? Who did you hear it from? Who else has seen this? Who else has heard it?
30:31Um and he kind of did acknowledge actually that they did not um they did not do that audit correctly, but he did not seem to think it was a big issue at all. And that's when I felt like I'm going to reach out to a regulator who actually conducted this test and ask them directly if what we did was okay.
30:48And their response was very clear. They said, "No, this is a clear violation of our regulations." And they I and when I first reached out, I didn't even say that I worked at Theronos. I just vaguely described the situation. And they said, "Can you please let us know the name of the company you worked for, what tests were run, the dates those tests were run." So, I put together all that information. I ended up going through what they called the laboratory investigative unit, which is where I could where my alias could be anonymous.
31:15Um, and then I never heard back from them, which was very disappointing.
31:22Later, the Wall Street Journal reporter did follow up and said like, "What happened to this complaint?" And it sounds like they had determined that this was not a New York state issue. This was a federal issue. So, they forwarded it to the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services, uh, which governs labs federally. And it just sounds like somehow it got kind of got lost in the shuffle.
31:43Lost in the shuffle. That was so surprising.
31:47So, you take this information though. I mean, you you you approach you gently approach Elizabeth with your concerns.
31:54Sorry, that was gently, right?
31:56So, first I gently approached them in person. I did not push very hard at all.
32:01I just said, "Here's two concerns that I have." Um, and after that, Elizabeth set me up with these conversations with the vice president. But after I was not satisfied by the vice president, I felt like I need to have another conversation with Elizabeth to make sure that my concerns are heard and that they're addressed. And at that point, she started ignoring me.
32:21Um, not ignoring me really, she was putting me off. She would say, "I'm too busy to meet with you." which was very unusual for her because like I said by that time she was becoming like part of my family and I even offered to meet with her late at night because I worked the night shift and she worked very late and I said I could meet you know after regular business hours after the craziness of the day has died down and she just said she was too busy and that she that I should put all my concerns in an email and she would address them
32:50and that turned out to be an absolutely wonderful thing because all not all my concerns but a lot of my concerns were clearly clearly documented in this email at the time. And what I did was I just would lay out this is an observation that I've made. Here's data that I've collected to support that observation and this is what I think we should do about it. Because I didn't want to approach her and say this is a total fraud. This is never going to work. I wanted to come to her from the perspective of we are I am a team member to you. Like we are working on this
33:18together. I want to find solutions. And in fact, I even concluded that email by saying, "I apologize if this sounds attacking in any way. It is truly not meant to be. I'm dedicated to the long-term vision of this company, but I'm worried that some of our current practices are going to prevent us from reaching our long-term goals."
33:37Like, I wanted to make it clear, I'm on your team here.
33:40Yeah. and she did not provide much of a response to that email, but she forwarded it to Sunny, who again um was the president, COO, board member, investor, and boyfriend.
33:57And he his reply was longer than mine. It was in all red, a lot of it all capitalized, a lot of it all bolded. And he essentially said that I was arrogant, ignorant, patronizing, reckless. I had no understanding of basic math, science, or statistics. And that if I had any other last name that I would have already been held accountable in the strongest way.
34:17Oh Blistering attack.
34:20Wow. Yes. Well, here's was just it's it's a little weird that Elizabeth said put it in an email. She's super paranoid, but she wants all this in writing. That's a weird contradiction.
34:30Yeah. I think she looks back on that and probably thinks regrets it a lot.
34:34That was a really big mistake.
34:35Yeah. No kidding. It just It's a weird one. when you've been running a paranoid shop for 11 years at that point. That's a weird little misstep by her.
34:42It is a weird misstep, isn't it, Carolyn? Very odd.
34:47But this is a pivotal point though, Tyler. You get the blistering attack from Sunny.
34:52So, as part of that blistering email, he gave me an Eminem analogy because part of my discussions with the vice president got like I would say way too into the weeds to the point where we were like arguing about how to calculate an average. Um, the details of that discussion don't really matter, but um, is as part of Sunny's blistering email, he said like, "How are you so dumb that you don't understand what we're doing here? It's like we're trying to count M&M's and instead of having one person count them, we have six people count
35:22them and then we take an average." Like, he thought that's the thing that I didn't understand. So, in my initial response, I was like I was so angered by his patronizing tone back to me that my initial draft of my resignation email was, "I understand how to count M&M's." My point is that I would rather have one adult count the M&M's than six four-year-olds.
35:47Sadly, God, which is like really the crux of the argument that I was having with the vice president earlier.
35:55Wow. Wow. It's like I don't care what statistical methods you can apply. If the data is this terrible, um the results are just going to be terrible.
36:05Um but ultimately I thought that that was not going to be very productive. So I deleted it. You know, I typed it out, gotten it out of my system, deleted it, and I just wrote, "Consider this my two weeks notice. If you prefer I leave earlier, that's fine with me as well."
36:19Giving two weeks in that circumstance is very generous. He's an upstanding guy.
36:24Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
36:26Yeah. I you know I was trying to not ruffle feathers as much as I possibly could even though I was obviously ruffling feathers and and just to clarify uh you had not spoken to your grandfather at this point, right?
36:39So actually I had spoken to him. I try I actually brought a lot of data and analysis to his house and kind of went through it with him and it was clear that he didn't really understand what I was talking about.
36:54Okay. Like a good example is I showed him a plot of our vitamin D validation where there's a line that goes horizontally through the graph that shows the correct result. It's you know 10 nanogram per milliliter or whatever it is and then there is the plot of every time we tested that sample on top of the line. And if you have a good test it's right on the line.
37:18Yeah. our test just looked like a total hodgepodge of like throw darts at a wall and he looked at it and said, "Well, you know, it looks like most of those dots are way above the line, so that looks pretty good to me." And he just like I would tried I I tried to describe to him what they what these graphs were supposed to mean and he clearly did not understand. And his response was just, you know, you need to go sort out these questions with Elizabeth.
37:47Did um did you ever say to him like, "Okay, forget the science for a minute. It's a really weird environment there."
37:53Like there's locked doors, there's um you know, paranoia, there's churn. Like did you ever talk to him sort of about the big picture stuff?
38:01Yeah, we I did. Um and he you know, he already knew that, but he knew that um I wasn't sharing details about what my job was with him even though he was a board member. And he would almost use that as almost almost like a joke. And in a positive way, you know, he was like, "Oh, Theronos is so secretive and takes their trade secrets, you know, so seriously that my own grandson won't tell me about what he's working on. It's like he's working at the CIA." And it just kind of became this almost like a
38:30fun bit. And so he knew, but he he did view it as a positive. And he had bought into the same excuses that Elizabeth had originally sold Neon.
38:40Yeah. He just was I I want to say he was kind of brainwashed at this point. Totally. Um, yeah. And that actually goes back to the whole gaslighting thing that we had talked about. I can't remember which documentary it was, but my wife and I watched a documentary about a cult. And I remember listening to one of the interviews and my eyes kind of popped and I thought theos employees could have said that exact same thing.
39:06Weird. It was she had built this cultlike following and my grandfather was certainly drinking the Kool-Aid when she would show up for family events at your house. Were you like oh cool Lisp's here we can chat about stuff or was it like uh she's the the you know like what like how did that dynamic play out in your house?
39:26Yeah. So usually uh to be super clear it was not at my house it was at my grandfather's house.
39:32Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
39:33But that is a house that I had been going to for my entire life. grew up 20 minutes away. So, it did feel like a second home in a lot of ways, you know.
39:42And at the beginning, it was very exciting. It was like if you had Steve Jobs coming over to your house for intimate family dinners.
39:52It it it it felt amazing. And Elizabeth always wanted me to sit next to her. And, you know, I just felt like, you know, I felt so good. And I felt like I had this growing connection with Elizabeth and the rest of my family. you know, fell for her as well. We thought this was the greatest thing. We also learned that my grandfather had set up a trust fund for his greatgrandchildren.
40:15So, my children, who at the time did not exist, that consisted 100% of Theronos stock.
40:23Exclusively stock. It was like all in which, by the way, since you didn't get any stock options, that would have been the only Theronos, you know, stock you would have had, right?
40:36And was this a large part of his total net worth, would you say?
40:40I even to this day do not have a very clear window into his finances.
40:46I know that he was a wealthy person, but he was not like Silicon Valley type wealthy.
40:53Um he made most of his money as the CEO of Beal Corporation in you know probably in the 80s or something like that.
41:00Oh yeah. Okay. And I I have done like back of the envelope calculations where I've he had let me I forget exactly how much stock he had, but at the peak valuation of $75 a share, his stock options were worth over $200 million.
41:17And so he was he was a wealthy person, but he was not that wealthy. That could have been, for all I know, that could have been 90% of his net worth. That's kind of where I would estimate it to be, but I don't truly know.
41:28But it was a lot. It was a blinding an absolutely blinding amount of money. Um, and I was I think Elizabeth was hoping that it would also be blinding to me. She knew that my ch children would have a trust fund that consisted of 100% there, no stock, and she knew exactly how much stock was in there. Yeah.
41:46So, I'm sure she thought, you know, like any other normal person, Tyler is going to be blinded by the amount of money that this could be for his children one day.
41:55Right. I did not know this. That's fascinating. your heirs would have benefited from Theronos succeeding. That adds a whole new layer to this.
42:04And obviously your grandfather told you all this, so you were supposed to know like this wasn't a secret. This is supposed to happen. It was not a secret.
42:11My entire family knew. Elizabeth knew.
42:16And we're, you know, we're skipping. I could skip ahead a little bit here, but when I would try to talk sense into my grandfather, he flat out would not believe me. The only thing he really would believe is I would say like, you know, I know that we have an enormous amount of money sitting in a trust fund for my children. Why on earth would I want that to go to zero? Like I want that to be worth something. I do, but I don't I don't want it to be an excuse for uh aiding and abetting a fraud, you know?
42:46I I want it to be worth something. I want this to happen. I have no motivation to bring this company down. I would be so happy to be wrong. I would have been the happiest person in the world if somehow I was proven wrong.
42:58Yeah. Actually, can you say something that I had heard in a podcast earlier where you said basically when you were asking some of those initial questions of Elizabeth, you weren't trying to take her down. In fact, you just you would have been delighted if she had answers for them, right?
43:17Absolutely. The entire time I was hoping that they would have answers. like when I first started and I saw the initial red flags, I felt like there must be some locked door somewhere with where the technology really is. Um, and I was holding out hope that there was something. And then when I was asking my colleagues like, are you seeing the same things that I'm seeing? I was hoping someone could prove me wrong. And that's actually a step that I did really well in my own whistleblower journey that I recommend everyone do is try as hard as
43:46you possibly can to prove yourself wrong. And that was so important for me because first of all, I think I did that step really well having spoken to all the people I spoke to plus regulators.
43:56I tried really hard to prove myself wrong. And once I couldn't, I had absolute 100% conviction in myself and in my beliefs.
44:04Um that the truth was on my side, that the facts were on my side. And I I just knew no matter what, the truth was on my side, the data was on my side, and I could always feel comforted by that. And that was hugely important to me as a very data driven person. I think as a scientist.
44:20As a scientist. Yes.
44:21Yeah. We got a little sidetracked, but I want of course. But go back just to the question I had was like at what point would you go over to your grandfather's house and you're like, "Oh man, Elizabeth is here. Like I don't really want to see her."
44:37Because I really was actually super curious about that specific question. So you were saying at first it was great cuz she wanted to sit with you and you know you were everyone was so into her.
44:47When did that start to change?
44:49So that started to change once I started working there full-time. Okay. So uh once I started working there she had been to two Christmases and then that December was the first Christmas that we shared together where I had actually worked at the company and seen behind the curtains.
45:03Yeah. And the things she was saying to my family at that Christmas just drove me insane. Like once you can see through the lies and see through the man manipulation, it became so painful and frankly just a lot harder to even continue staying quiet, which at the time I was staying quiet, right?
45:23Like she would say things like, you know, Tyler is doing better work than the PhDs that I've hired. Tyler is showing so much leadership potential.
45:31you know, she was just she was saying all the right things to the right people to make me feel good, to make me feel like I had a future at the company, to make me feel like there was big upside financially for me at the company. But I could see straight through it by that time. I I was like, I know what you're doing. I know I'm not doing better work than the PhDs you've hired. You know, I can recognize that I'm not the smartest person at this company. Um, yeah, as much as I want to, you know, maybe believe that, I know that I'm not and I
45:59know you're just saying these things. My family did kind of start questioning a little bit the speed at which the Theronos technology was being rolled out because this was, you know, year three that we were hearing about it. And it always had sounded like Thanos was on the brink of this huge nationwide roll out. And I do remember I had have an uncle who asked like, "Why aren't you up in Portland yet? Like we've been talking about this for three years now.
46:25And she would, you know, she always had some kind of of an excuse. Um, one of those excuses was that she was going above and beyond what was required of them by the regulatory agencies. So, because they were utilizing this laboratory develop pathway, they actually did not need to submit any data to the FDA. But Elizabeth would say that it was very important to them as a company and to their values as a as a company to be evaluated uh by the FDA. and she would say that they've submitted thousands of pages of
46:55documentation to the FDA in presubmissions and that the FDA was slow. She would always have these these excuses when in reality I think people who have been in this business realize that submitting data in a presubmission is not nearly um the the type of traction or engagement with the FDA that Elizabeth was making it out to be. She was making it sound like a big deal that they had this presubmission with with the FDA when I could schedule presubmission with the FDA right now based on an idea that you and I come up with on this podcast.
47:26So, she would always have an excuse. Um Oh, no.
47:30And then I remember after that lunch or dinner, whatever it was, and she was away, one of my some of my aunts and uncles were around and they said, "Wow, you're so lucky to be working at a great company like Theronos. This is just so amazing. What an opportunity for you." And I just shook my head and said, "That place is a complete disaster. Nothing works."
47:48This is This is never going to happen. And I was pretty open with them. I just couldn't hold it in after seeing her just continually lying to my family. And I could see it in in real time her trying to gaslight me. And I just I just couldn't hold it. I was like, "No, this is a complete fraud." Basically, I probably didn't use that word, but I said, "This is not this is not working.
48:11the reason we're not rolling out is because it doesn't work. It's not because we're waiting for the FDA.
48:16What did they say? How was their response?
48:19It was actually mixed. Um, so some people said, you know, you should quietly leave. It's not really your place to raise this with your grandfather. It should you should let the company take its natural course of action. And then I got other advice that was, no, you should absolutely not do that. Why not talk to your grandfather?
48:40you need to maybe you should try to do more.
48:42Um so yeah, so it became painful at some point that she was coming and it became more painful a little bit further on in the story. Did you ever reach out to like past employees or meet past employees? Like uh what's ringing in my head is the one of the original board members who was from Apple, Avi, and he he actually had some questions and felt like as a board member it was his responsibility to ask some of these questions and he basically got canned.
49:10Like did you ever meet people like that that you're like no way that's what I've been thinking?
49:15Unfortunately not. I didn't know who had really worked there before. The company history is all public now, but it wasn't super public back then. I wouldn't have I would have never known that Aby, okay, was on the board. And and I feel like we just didn't talk enough to know about who had been there, who had worked there before. I I wouldn't have even known who to reach out to. And to even illustrate how to to like illustrate that point even more, there was the chief scientist of
49:44Theronos took his own life. Um, that was he did that between when I was an intern and when I worked there full-time. And so I was kind of there around the time that that happened. And I never knew about it. I never heard about it. I never heard his name until later the Wall Street Journal reporter when I was talking to him. He told me the story.
50:04I didn't I did not know it until I I learned about it a much longer after the fact.
50:10That is so sad. So, if I didn't know that was happening, I certainly didn't know that Avi Tavanian was a board member five years ago, right? In hindsight, it's all been laid out by, you know, Bad Blood and all the articles and stuff like that, but I guess back then they did a really good job of keeping everything under wraps.
50:29Yeah. And it would have been so discouraged for a former employee to talk to a current employee. I don't think anyone would have taken that risk.
50:38Yeah. Okay. Even if like even if I'd reached out to Avi for instance.
50:43So I don't know him. But let's go a little bit deeper into your pre-le with a few questions. Like I have a few questions about her Elizabeth. I'm going to cut right to the chase. Did you know she had the fake voice? Like was that a thing amongst the employees that she had changed her voice?
51:03It's funny, but I don't ever remember someone accusing her of that while I worked there.
51:09But there were times when I feel like when she was laughing at something, maybe she would and she would lose control of her voice a little bit and it would slip and it would jump up an octave. But for the most part, she was very, very good at at maintaining that low octave every time I spoke to her. I don't know for sure that it was faked, but from people who knew her in college and even in the early days of Theronos say that there was a stark difference in her voice from when she started the
51:37company from when it was at its peak.
51:41You said in a podcast that she was a master of planting seeds for lies that she would need years from now. Can you give us an example of that?
51:54Yes. So that is again another part of the gaslighting and on the the gaslighting theme. It just happened in so many different directions and you were surrounded by it all the time that you that and that's what gaslighting is.
52:07You almost don't notice that it's happening because it is just it is just constant and it just becomes the reality. And part of that was she was a genius, an absolute genius at planting lies literally years before she would need to use them. And a really good example of that is the first time I ever met Elizabeth in my grandfather's living room. She said that they were going to remain a private company forever because of all of the benefits that come with
52:37not being a public company.
52:39And she knew that they would never be able to IPO. There's way too much scrutiny, way too many too many things that need to become transparent when you IPO when you're a public company. She knew that was simply not an option for Theronos. And so rather than get she raised almost a billion dollars in funding. So rather than raise a billion dollars in funding, have the value skyrocket and then suddenly have all these investors clamoring for an IPO event. She got ahead of that conversation and before they even invest invested would say we are never going to
53:09IPO. We will be private forever. And she got ahead of that conversation so that it would never happen.
53:14What what was the selling point?
53:15Absolutely genius like dividends like how would how why would investors want that product? I have no idea. Private market. Sell it on the private market.
53:24Secondaries, but like Yeah. Okay.
53:26Let's talk about some of those investors because actually the investor thing is a whole interesting side story. Um like Carolyn and I are obviously with Y Cominator, so we know a lot of investors. I didn't know any of their investors. I mean I Well, you know of them. Um, but there were no like mainstream venture capitalists really except I guess Tim Draper was an early investor. But yeah, so Tim Tim Draper would be the
53:54exception, but he was really like an angel investor. They put in $500,000. It was I think the first check or one of the first checks. And so I almost don't really count that as like a true VC investment. It was truly like an angel investment from Tim Draper, not truly from the fund. Right. Yeah.
54:12And to your point, I actually think that Silicon Valley VCs don't get enough credit for not getting sucked into the hype of Therronos. Let's compliment them, Carolyn. VCs were very, very clever on this one.
54:25You know, for real, Silicon Valley VCs rarely get compliments.
54:30They do not get I genuinely think they are due a compliment here. Yeah. Yeah. I think I have I have spoken to some to some very uh powerful Silicon Valley VCs.
54:43I don't think he would mind that I share his name because it actually makes him look good. But for instance, I spoke to Infinode Kosla of Kla Ventures and he basically says that of course Theronos pitched Kla and he went and visited the company and Kla had a process. They ran the process. The process said don't invest and they didn't.
55:01And I hear very similar things from partners at Sequoia and Google Ventures and over and over, you know, now I hear people say they passed on Theronos and it was people who had processes, people who had teams, people who were not sold decision makers did discover that this was not a good investment and if you stuck to your process, you did not invest. Did Venote actually say like it was because we had like this checklist of questions and we got stonewalled on
55:30all of them or we could tell they were lies? Like, sorry, this is a weird thing to drill down into, but I'm just curious like why didn't he get sold on her whole thing?
55:42You know, he didn't provide a whole lot of specifics into exactly what the process was, but the gist of the conversation was we had a process and we ran it and it was clear that this was not going to be a good fit for Coastline. Okay. Okay.
55:54And they didn't get caught up in the hype.
55:55Yeah. Yeah. Which is hard to do based on how you describe her.
56:01And in fact, some of these people would even say that they after they passed and Theronos just went up like a rocket ship, they thought, "What did I miss?
56:11How do I need to change my process so that I don't pass on the next?"
56:15I think they were I think there were a lot of people who were had serious like concerns like did I miss out? they were questioning things because I'd like to take a quick second and sorry to interrupt your story Tyler because yours is the one we're focused on. But I do think it's interesting to give Carolyn and my perspective also being in the investment community. I have never met I never met Elizabeth and I know I don't think you did either Carolyn and actually I don't I don't
56:41know many people who did but we'd see her on the cover of magazines and Carolyn and I have done a lot of work over the years promoting women in the industry and encouraging female founders. We launched a female founders conference in 2014 that I'm certain one of those years we invited Elizabeth to speak. I mean, she was right. Right. The one thing I remember in my mind was like, "Thank God this woman is succeeding. This is so great. We have
57:09this this role model for more women to do this." And I was thrilled. But she was the hottest ticket in town.
57:19The world, especially Silicon Valley, but the world was craving a female Steve Jobs.
57:25And Elizabeth just served herself up on a platter. Like this was a story everyone wanted to believe. She said all the right things at the right time. And and we everyone just wanted it to be true so badly, including myself.
57:39Tyler, that you've answered my question.
57:41I have to what extent did she manipulate the press's desire for female founders?
57:47And I said they did not want to look closely inside the box cuz it's like their ideology and the reality was so the difference between it was so big. They wanted a female founder to succeed. So they didn't ask hard questions either until John Keroo came along.
58:03Yeah. Uh I I absolutely agree with that. And it it is just such a shame because not only was she the female Steve Jobs, she was the female founder. She just made such a big deal out of it. like she made such a big deal about being the youngest self-made female billionaire.
58:20And she had these quotes that there's a special place in hell for women who don't help other women. And she just unfortunately became like the poster child for the female founder. And it ended up being, you know, obviously a complete sham.
58:35Yeah. But it's I just wish she would have just done it and not called so much attention to it because now I think female founders are actually hurt more now because of how much attention she brought to herself for being a woman. I was just thinking that and I don't know if this timeline is correct but you know there has just been a lot of female founders who have gotten a lot of crap since then for for they're targeted a little bit targeted and you know legitimately or no but I I was just thinking like she may
59:04be the reason female founders actually the high-profile ones just end up going through the ringer harder than like your average male founder does.
59:14Yeah. There's like a bunch of examples like the wing and all, you know, all those people.
59:19She certainly didn't help and I think she's probably part of the problem, but she's certainly not the entire problem.
59:25But I think the other really sad piece about this is that she showed that the formula to becoming the female Steve Jobs or the youngest self-made female billionaire is to get these old white men to just fall in love with you and throw money at you. And she used her femininity in order to do that. She could not achieve what she was able to achieve had she been a man.
59:47That's an unfortunate trope to lean into.
59:50And it's like it's it's sad that that was the formula.
59:53Do you not think that is what worked?
59:55Do you not think that a male could be just as charismatic and get away with the lies or do you do you really think it was the way she looked and the fact that she was a woman?
1:00:05I think it is possible for a man to commit massive frauds. Let's look at Sam Bankman. Free SPF. Yeah, SPF. But he did it in a very different way. You know, the way that Elizabeth went about it is she relied on her being a woman to commit this fraud and to raise that much money. Yeah. If she if Sunny was raising this $700 million mega round, he would have fallen on his face.
1:00:27It would not have gotten any traction.
1:00:29You know what's funny though? When you describe her, the person who keeps popping into my head is Bill Clinton because I've heard Bill Clinton described very similarly when it in terms of like making you feel like you're the only person. I've met him.
1:00:41Yeah. So, so I think absolutely. I think the targets would be different is I think that's what you're saying like she was able to target a very specific type of investor because of what she was doing and pe men who are like her would have a different type of target but be just as effective. And then the other part that I think is really unfortunate is not only did she really highlight the fact she was a woman on the way up, but she also tried to kind of use it as an excuse on the way down.
1:01:10And I think that was frustrating to me. I imagine it was even more frustrating to to female founders who were saying like, "Do not use the fact that you were a woman as an excuse right now for massive massive fraud."
1:01:23Yeah. That doesn't help us. Like she was Yeah. She was so public about saying that it was a witch hunt and that they were coming after her because she was a woman. And then even at her trial, she made it so public that she had just had a baby and then a second baby and just made a big show out of the fact that she was a new mother. She completely changed her personality, her persona to becoming like, I'm this mother like please help me. I've done
1:01:52nothing wrong. Do you think she like had kids to manipulate the sentencing?
1:01:57It's a really I mean it's hard to say definitively. I do think that. I think that when I knew Elizabeth, she said she would never have a boyfriend, never get married, and never have kids because she was just so devoted to the vision of Theronos. And Theronos was her child.
1:02:12Theronos was her husband. She the board like like Henry Kissinger described her as being like part of the monastic order because of how devote she was to Theronos. So it was when it was inconvenient for her to have children, she had absolutely no desire to have children. And then when suddenly it becomes this very convenient thing for her, she then decides this is the best thing for me in this moment to have kids. It was not the best time in in her life for the kids for sure. It was the best time in Elizabeth's life for her to
1:02:44What illustrates this even more is that around the time of the sentencing, she did this kind of I don't even know exactly what it was, but like an op-ed with the New York Times where a reporter went and spent a lot of time with her and she had photos of her kids in the article. And typically when you have things like this, you have people shield their kids from this type of news attention. And to me, I just felt so bad for their for those kids. like generally so bad for those kids because when I
1:03:13knew her, her black turtleneck was her prop. She loved having these props to tell stories and to get people to focus on one thing when they should be focused on something else. And to me, it seems like she's now using her kids like she used to use the black turtleneck.
1:03:27Would you call her a sociopath? You know, just as an armchair psychologist, do you think that's that's what we're dealing with here is sociopathy?
1:03:35I think there's some pathology about her. I don't know exactly what it is. But something like a sociopath, psychopath, she has a way to rationalize decisions that I think people like you and I simply would not be able to rationalize.
1:03:50Right? This is so random, but when she had all the security, famous security, I mean, I think she even had security when she was only at a $1 billion valuation and she was Eagle One, like was that all for manipulation and show and to make it seem like it was she was so important? cuz I know I know founders with security and they it just doesn't seem like at the point where she got all the security she actually needed it.
1:04:15Yeah, that was that was part of the show. No doubt. Like she was she was surrounded by security at all times.
1:04:22Every door was open for her by the security. Every time she walked through the door, it was Eagle One, you know, Eagle One D Eagle two on the way. And it's like, why are you using the the code name Eagle One when she's walking?
1:04:34Like everyone knows who you're talking about, right?
1:04:37the code names. That's absurd.
1:04:40There. It is absolutely absurd. And they would also do silly things when they would meet people at restaurants in Palo Alto where they would try to leave at different times so that they wouldn't if someone was watching them they wouldn't know that they were meeting with exerson and Elizabeth and Sunny would arrive and leave at different times which is just so funny when I forget what it what the license plate was but Sunny would be driving out with his Porsche with the vanity license plate that says I forget what it actually said but like something that clearly calls attention to the fact
1:05:09that he is there in like a Lamborghini or something, right?
1:05:13Yeah. Lamborghini. Yeah. Even Yeah. Some something even flashier than a Porsche for sure.
1:05:17In Bad Blood. Um the author talked about one of these meetings and they, you know, I think maybe it was with Walgreens or Safeway or something like that and it was at Fuki Sushi, I think, Carolyn, which we've all been to.
1:05:28Which we've all been to.
1:05:29We've all been there.
1:05:30And the funny thing was like it was 4:30 in the afternoon. That was sort of the kicker. Like they did all this cloak and dagger stuff at 4:30. No one was in the restaurant. sushi at 4:30 in the afternoon.
1:05:42On my last day, I get this blistering email.
1:05:45I actually I so I I after I send the email that says, "If you prefer I leave earlier, that's fine with me as well." I assumed that they were going to have me leave that day. So, I didn't do any work. I almost felt guilty about it, which retrospectively seems kind of crazy that I was like, "You know what?
1:06:00I'm going to take the morning off."
1:06:02I sat in the I was in the break room. I was just chatting with people as they came by. And then at some point my manager pulled me aside. It was actually my true manager had just left for maternity leave. So it was like uh like someone who kind of stepped in to be my manager said, you know, Elizabeth and Sunny actually feel like it's more appropriate if you leave today. And so I just want to make sure that your lab notebook is all organized and whatever experiments you're working on, we can pass off to somebody else. So for a couple hours, I just went through my lab
1:06:29notebook. I I explained to him exactly what everything meant, what I was planning on doing next, printed out pieces of data that were missing, glued it into the lab notebook, all that. I would say very professional. And then eventually I got an email from the head of HR and she just said, "Can you come to my office at, you know, 3:00 or something like that?" So, I go to her office and she has this really, I would say, like faked pained look on her face.
1:06:55She's like, "Elizabeth and Sunny really think it's better if you leave today. We're really sorry that, you know, things didn't work out." And I was just like, "Get me out of here.
1:07:06I'm so happy to out of here."
1:07:09Yeah. And so, she gave me another NDA to sign. I didn't read it, just signed it. I shouldn't have. I wish I hadn't.
1:07:16Okay. So, just for the the the legal aspect here, they probably it was probably like a termination certificate that reiterated all the stuff you'd already agreed to and they made it very clear that your obligations were going into the future indefinitely.
1:07:31That's probably what it was. Did you get a copy of it, by the way?
1:07:34Yeah. It's actually very very funny that you bring this up because just by complete complete coincidence, my wife was just cleaning out a closet and happened to find the folder that I got handed to me by the head of HR like literally right before we got on this podcast. She was like, "This is this theos folder." And I was like, "Oh, shit."
1:07:52Oh, you're like, "Oh, hey." Yeah. What?
1:07:53Okay. So, that that was in there.
1:07:55There's really Yeah, there's really not much in here. It's literally just that exact uh that exact letter that you mentioned.
1:08:03Oh my god. Wow, I still haven't read it.
1:08:06Yeah, maybe keep it that way actually, but I can tell it does say some things, you know, confidentiality, blah blah blah blah blah. It's also, you can see, it's kind of funny. You can see on every page that you printed out at Theronos has Theronos confidential written across all over it. Wow.
1:08:24Yeah, it's funny that you bring that up because I happen to have accidentally just found that exact folder that she such a weird coincidence. Okay. So, HR is like, "Sign it." And you're like, "No problem. I can't wait to get out of here." Oh. Oh. Did you forward to yourself or print any emails? Because we talked about like the email a few minutes ago.
1:08:43Did you how how did you have those?
1:08:46Great question. So, while I worked at Theronos, I had on a couple occasions emailed things to myself.
1:08:52That ended up causing a lot of trouble for me.
1:08:54Smart. Oh, okay. But they were unfortunately they were really unhelpful things to me but still caused a lot of problems. Like one one was a presentation that I made kind of like my final presentation as an intern that I wanted to practice at home and I wasn't allowed to take my laptop out of the building so I emailed it to myself so I could practice the presentation at home.
1:09:15I then couldn't open the attachment for my personal laptop so I couldn't do it. But in one of in one of these documents that I signed, I claimed that I had not taken out any confidential information. And they said, "You lied to us. You emailed this presentation to yourself when you were an intern."
1:09:31And you broke you you breached your contract.
1:09:33I guess I did. I broke my contract by sending myself this attachment. Totally genuinely benign.
1:09:40Um so you could practice it. It's breaking my heart.
1:09:45And then I had also forwarded a couple links to papers that I wanted to read at home.
1:09:52Internal papers or like external?
1:09:54No, no, no. Like like third party published papers that I had, you know, gone on Google Scholar and found on my personal laptop that I then emailed the link to myself so I could read the paper at home on my personal laptop.
1:10:04That's super benign.
1:10:05Got busted. Got busted.
1:10:07Okay. But the email uh the big email to Elizabeth with all of your the ones. Did that only get that was must have been in discovery like that was part of litigation. So that you didn't actually send that to yourself, did you?
1:10:20So that's the big one that I did sneak out.
1:10:23That's like the one big thing that I did intentionally sneak out.
1:10:27And I was too afraid to email it to myself. Luckily, I didn't do that.
1:10:31Um I couldn't leave bring the laptop out of the building. So, I decided to print a copy while I was at Theronos and I hit print and nothing came out. And I hit print and nothing came out and I was just hit like print print. Why is this not working? And then suddenly out of the printer, I'm not kidding you. Probably a dozen plus copies of this very, very long email start printing out.
1:10:57So, were you panicked?
1:10:58We're talking I was totally panicked. I was over the copy machine, over the printer, and my computer was, you know, probably a solid 25 plus yards away, and I was too afraid to just let these continue printing out while I wasn't hovering over them to try to run back to my laptop to stop the print from happening. So, I just stood there for it seemed like an eternity, I bet.
1:11:21While probably, if I had to estimate, a total of like two to 300 pages printed out.
1:11:27Oh my god. Was this actually on your last day or did you do this before your last day?
1:11:31This is my very last day.
1:11:32Your very last day. So you were about to leave the building, turn in your laptop, leave the building, and the stupid printer will not stop printing copies of this incredibly inflammator.
1:11:40On your last day, I thought you did listen to this before. This is on your last day. So now you're on the They're watching you. Oh my god.
1:11:48So this was I suppose this was the other I guess non-ben thing that I did aside from just sitting around in the break room. I did do this.
1:11:56Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
1:11:58But it took a long time. I was so nervous that someone was going to come over and be like, "What is this ream of paper you're printing out?" And I knew that there were cameras everywhere, too, like at every door in the parking lot. So, it stopped printing. I took the room of paper. I stuck it under my shirt. Um I think I was actually I put on a sweatshirt intentionally.
1:12:19Even though I never wear sweatshirts, but I put on a sweatshirt, stuck it under my shirt. Like I had a hand under my shirt and I walked out the building with this bream of emails under my shirt and I put it in the trunk of my car.
1:12:32Can I just make a side note from Bad Blood because it stuck with me and I laughed out loud. It was like the HR person said there'll be a security person to escort you out to your car and then it was like unfortunately no security person was available and Tyler saw himself out.
1:12:49Is that true? Yeah, it is true. It's kind of a funny It is a funny detail, but it does matter because they later characterize my last day as me just leaving in an absolute storm. But to I mean to kind of tell that story. So, back to this meeting where I got this envelope right here. Um they they said, you know, security is going to have to come escort you out of the building. I had, I think, one or two personal books
1:13:18on my desk. And so I just said, "Can I just go get my books?" And they said, "No, we we're gonna mail them to you."
1:13:24And I was like, "Really? I can't just go grab this book on kinetics." And she said, "No, security is going to come escort you straight out of the building." We sat there for a while. She said, "Well, it looks like security is busy. Can you just walk yourself out?" I said, "Yeah, sure." So, and I was like, "Can I go grab my books on the way?" She said, "No, definitely not. Just walk straight out the door."
1:13:44So, I left. No one escorted me. I walked out the door. There was someone from security at the the front desk and so I chatted with him for like 2 minutes. Um, very cordial. Walked out the door and then literally like this is like cinematic timing. Before I even got to my car, my mom called me and she said, "Stop whatever it is you're about to do." And I said, "It's too late. I literally just walked out the door and they are not going to let me back in. I can tell you that much." Wait, why did
1:14:13your mom call you? Like what? What?
1:14:17Well, yeah. So, she said, "I just got off the phone with your grandfather and he said that Elizabeth just told him that you vocalized a vendetta against her and that if you try to execute this vendetta that you will lose."
1:14:35I wonder if And I And what did you say to your mom?
1:14:39I said, "I have no idea what she's talking about."
1:14:44Like, and she said, "Okay, well, just go talk to your grandfather right now." So, I got in my car and I drove to my grandfather's office on the Stanford campus. And he said, "Elizabeth tells me that you quit in a very dramatic and inappropriate way, and that she was trying to meet with you to calm you down, but that you were refusing to meet with her."
1:15:07Wow. We're in shock. Caroline and I are in shock.
1:15:11And I just said that could not be further from the truth. I've been trying to schedule a meeting with her. She's been avoiding me. And I spent most of my day transferring my lab notebook very peacefully, talking to people in the break room peacefully. And to tell you how peacefully it was, I walked myself out of the building. They felt like I did not need a security escort.
1:15:32And that's why that detail was important because it kind of throws a wrench in Elizabeth's story.
1:15:36Yeah. Yeah. Did you also say and I have tw 200 copies of an email that I can show you. It's right under my sweatshirt right now. Grandpa, I did. I did. Um I showed him the the email.
1:15:49That one of the one of the many copies that I had I gave to him.
1:15:53Oh, by the way, had you just printed the one you've sent to Elizabeth with all of the details or had you printed the entire thread with Sunny's response and you're like, "Okay, well, this is I'm giving you two weeks." was like, "Did you have the whole conversation?"
1:16:07Yeah, the whole conversation.
1:16:10And it's actually a really interesting email to read because Sunny put his responses like in line with mine. So it almost reads like a conversation, which is nice cuz it's not like you read one email and then you read a response. It's like it really feels like there's a little bit of a back and forth.
1:16:25And he read it and again he did not understand it. He said, "To me it looks like they've given you a pretty, you know, substantive answer here. This is this is a lot a lot of words. And I know I point out specific sentences. I would say read this sentence. They're not addressing my concern. He's calling me stupid, right?
1:16:44I can be stupid and my concern can still be valid.
1:16:47And it sounds like that resonated with him at least a little bit because he said that he had been on the phone with Elizabeth all day. And first of all, she said that I was completely wrong, that they were going above and beyond what was required of regulatory agencies, that they did 100% of the testing on Theronos devices, that they were only doing finger pricks. You know, she re reiterated all that stuff. But he said, "She's trying to convince me that you're stupid and she can't do that, but she can convince me that you're wrong, and I
1:17:16believe that you're wrong." So, it's like he almost got this idea that they weren't addressing my problem. They were just calling me stupid, but he didn't he didn't quite get there all the way.
1:17:26So close. Well, so this is probably minor in comparison to all of the actually substantive points about the fraud, but at least I would think that email would show that she had lied about the way you quit. I mean, it's a small victory, right? But you could say like, "Hey, grandpa, look it. I am very professional and classy. I just gave my two weeks and said, "How can I help?"
1:17:45Like whatever. So like that's clearly just her bullshitting. And how come he couldn't be like, "Yeah, why'd she lie to me about that?" Like, I would have wanted that for you.
1:17:54Yeah. At that point in time, it was impossible for him to see Elizabeth doing any wrongdoing.
1:18:00It was it was truly like a cult leader talking to one of her followers.
1:18:06But at the end of that conversation, he just said, "Well, move on to the next thing. You know, this chapter is over."
1:18:13Yeah. Did Did you feel like that, too, when he's like, "Okay, okay. You quit. Today was your last day. Like life goes on. Were you like, "Okay, I'm done with Theronos."
1:18:23Yeah. Well, the day is not quite done.
1:18:25Oh. Oh, okay. Okay. Dinner with Erica Chung.
1:18:29So, the day continues. I find I I leave my grandfather's office. I feel like I've left this thing behind me.
1:18:35My colleague Erica wants to chat. And so, we decide to meet up for a beer at a bar a lot of people know as Antonio's Nut House, which unfortunately does not exist anymore, but still a lot of people sushi. We've all been to Antonio's. Yep.
1:18:49Yep. Yep. The nut house. And so we met up there. We had a beer and Elizabeth or not, Erica was just so frustrated when I had kind of recounted how my day went to her and she had a lot of the very same concerns. And she said, "I want to raise the same concerns that you did." And she wanted to write an email just like I did, but she said that she went and talked to her manager about this and he said, "Do not do that." And what she
1:19:17told me was that he said something like, "If you do this, you will be on their radar and once you're on their radar, you will be there forever and that's not somewhere you want to be."
1:19:28And so she just felt totally discouraged. She's like, "Why? No one will listen to me." And I said, "I cannot guarantee that my grandfather will do anything, but I can guarantee that he will listen to you. Like he for all of his flaws, he is a very good listener." And I said, "Would you want to talk to him tonight?" I said, "Actually, my grandfather invited me over to have dinner with him tonight.
1:19:51I'm sure I can bring you as a guest if you want to talk to him." And she said, "Yeah, I would love to. I would love to speak with him." And so I somehow reconnected with my grandfather and said, "Is it okay if I bring one of my colleagues over for dinner?" And he said, "Yes, that's awesome. Bring her over."
1:20:05And you probably saw her as an ally, like another voice, like telling my grandfather what I've been trying to tell him.
1:20:12I know. It's like I wish I could have extended that invitation to the entire lab. I think if and this is actually a very good lesson in corporate governance where I feel like if any of those people felt like they could safely talk to a board member, I bet a lot of people would have done it. If they felt like they could anonymously anonymously go talk to a board member without Elizabeth and and Sunny knowing what they were talking about, they probably would have wanted to talk to my grandfather, but they just would not trust um they would not trust the confidentiality piece the way it was it
1:20:41was set up. But yeah, so that night Erica and I go back over to my grandfather's house and it was a little bit odd because I felt like earlier in the day he was almost he was more calm.
1:20:53He was he seemed to be listening a bit more. By the time Erica had gotten there, I think Elizabeth had spoken to him more and he had become almost angry at us. And I felt bad because I had promised Erica that he would listen to her and he kind of shut her down. And I felt like I was I was frustrated because I felt like Erica was not raising the concerns that I wanted her to tell him about. But I also can't blame her because she was definitely getting shut
1:21:21down by my grandfather and just told like, "You guys are young. You don't know what you're looking at. Elizabeth has assured me about all these things." In that dinner, he even said that these devices were currently being used in medevac helicopters in Afghanistan.
1:21:37He said, "You guys are dead wrong.
1:21:39Wow. These are being used in battlefields.
1:21:41Wasn't there the military guy on the board? Uh, Mattis.
1:21:47Couldn't he have said, "Uh, George, they're not being used on the battlefield."
1:21:51That that is what you think would happen. But but that is not what happened.
1:22:00Somehow I don't know how this happened.
1:22:02Um, so I kind of apologize for some of the the lack of details, but I do know there's, you know, in this documentary they dug up a bunch of stuff and they found a quote that was attributed to Jim Mattis that was in drafts of marketing materials that Theronos used that undoubtedly my grandfather read and that is where he got this information from.
1:22:21And so this is like I want to read this quote if we have time to read it because the quote itself is like a masterclass in how to lie. That just illustrates how good she really was. So this is the quote that was attributed to Jim Mattis that I don't believe he ever said. I think Elizabeth probably made it up and put his name on it. It says, "We have been using Theronos for two years with incredible success. One of the most challenging parts of my job is contacting families of fallen soldiers.
1:22:48I write multiple next token letters every day. And so it is very evident to me the impact that Theronos has had on survival rates. We're able to take these small machines to the front line on helicopters and planes, test, get extremely accurate results, and begin stabilization immediately. As a result, we have a 98% survival rate, up 30% from 68%. That's a dramatic improvement in the quality of care that we can provide the courageous men and women of our armed forces, which means a lot more soldiers are going home to their
1:23:18Wow, that is a massive Caroline. I'm going to answer your previous question and say yes, she is a psychopath.
1:23:28Come on. Um, I feel like since it is recorded and Sunny does he actually never settled his civil lawsuit, so we still have one more trial. I will say I have no direct knowledge of that quote, I don't know that Elizabeth made it up.
1:23:40Yep. Right. Right.
1:23:41What I what I do know is that my grandfather pared those exact same ideas to me. So, he heard them from someone from somewhere.
1:23:49Yeah. And Jim Mattis has never addressed this piece of it at all. Like, did he just kind of piece out on this whole thing?
1:23:56He kind of did, but Jim Mattis was the only board member that testified in Elizabeth's criminal trial.
1:24:02And for the government. For the government.
1:24:04For the government. Okay.
1:24:06And I'm glad that he had that opportunity because I know Jim Mattis has a really great reputation. Like when I've spoken to people who know him, you only hear high praise for Jim Mattis.
1:24:16and I don't think he did his job as a board member, but he was also taken advantage of, I believe. And so, I'm glad that he had the opportunity to take the stand and testify against her and to some extent write some of the wrongs.
1:24:31However, I don't believe that that absolves the board of the guilt that they should have.
1:24:36Yeah. Yeah, that's fair.
1:24:38But yeah, so anyway, we're in this meet dinner. And again, just I think everyone knows who Jim Mattis is, but at the time he was a four-star general. He then became the secretary of of defense. So when you're when Elizabeth is making these types of claims to either other board members or to investors and it's attributed to Jim Mattis and you're an investor trying to diligence this claim, there is no person better in the world to know if that statement is true or false than Jim Mattis. There's like there's no right no one else you you should be able to turn to to ask is this statement true or
1:25:08false. And so that is an example of the incredible credibility that Elizabeth had when she was in these pitches.
1:25:15All right, so back to the D.
1:25:16So back to the D. So my my grandfather's parodying these claims and he just says, "You're dead wrong." And and I said, "These devices are not working within the walls of Theronos. There's no chance this is working in a helicopter." And I I'm just I want you to know that I'm going to say it as straightforward as I can possibly say it. This is not working in a helicopter. And when Elizabeth tells you lies, tells you excuses about why they're not rolled out nationwide when she keeps saying it's coming, it's coming, it's coming, and it never does,
1:25:45know that those excuses are lies. And the real reason is that it doesn't work.
1:25:52And he just said, "Okay."
1:25:55And then, you know, we all left pretty frustrated.
1:25:58Yeah. And then actually outside my grandfather's house, Erica asked if she could see a copy of the email. So I showed her a copy of this email exchange.
1:26:07Hang on. Hang on. I've got 200 copies.
1:26:12She probably read the first two paragraphs and then just closed her eyes and said, "I can't read this right now. I'm just too tired."
1:26:19And then she went in the next day and she quit. and she did not send the email she wanted to send, but I think she did have like a face tof face discussion with with Sunny on her last day. Um, and then that next day for me, I felt like a huge weight had been lifted. I thought Therronos is finally behind me. This horrible chapter that was eight months that felt like an absolute eternity. I just felt so alive. It the sun was out.
1:26:48I I went I walked on campus. I saw some friends. I actually I went to the bookstore and I bought a book and I just thought I'm just going to take time to sit in the sun and read this book. And then my parents live pretty close and I drove down to Lasadas to see my mom and we just had this idea of going to the nursery and buying an avocado tree and planting it in the backyard. So, we spent the day digging a hole, planting this avocado tree.
1:27:12By the way, are you thinking like, "Hey, I'm I am going to probably go get my PhD or like or were you just not even thinking about the future yet?" Yeah. So, I really wanted to go back and work in a lab at Stanford with a professor that I had taken a class from when I was in undergrad. Okay.
1:27:26And I I really wanted to go do that. I didn't know if it was going to happen yet, but it was I was trying to get into his lab.
1:27:32And when I worked at Theronos, I was trying to set that up as the next step, right?
1:27:39And his advice to me was, you know, Theronos seems like it's a really great company. You should try to stick it out.
1:27:44you should because you know and in his defense I was not sharing with him all these details and he said you know it's your first job it could look bad if you leave after just a few months and you should try to stay the whole year and so when I asked if I could join his lab his first answer was kind of like no you should stick it out and then I reapproached him and I said I've already quit so that piece is out of the equation can I just come join your lab now as I'm looking for my next thing to do and he welcomed me into his lab
1:28:13that's great but But just just to reiterate, it's a memorably great day you're having the day after Theronos and it's memorable because of what happens next.
1:28:23But it's just kind of funny that you're like you have all these memories of happy memories. Yeah, it was such a beautiful day. I exercised, I read some, I spent time with my mom, I planted a tree, and it felt like this huge relief for my parents as well. We all just felt like, oh, this is over. This was such a horrible chapter. We're glad it's closed not realizing that this was really the beginning.
1:28:48So Carolyn, we are back with Tyler Schultz for part two of his story, which if you listen to the the first part, you'll be on the edge of your seat. So Tyler, I'd like to pick up with you kind of where we left off. You resigned from Theronos. You get a job at a at a lab at Stanford and everything's going okay.
1:29:12Yeah, life is good. I I worked in that lab at Stanford for about three months through the summer and then actually one of my former managers from Theronos kind of recruited me into a team that she was building at RO, a big biotech company.
1:29:22and she was someone who I had really respected while I worked there and we worked really really well together and so I was I was just super excited to rejoin her team and I was doing you know great enzymology work over at Ro and had felt like id left Theronos behind me.
1:29:38And then what happened?
1:29:40And then and then that turned out to be completely untrue. And it became very apparent that even though I had left Theronos, that Theronos was not going to leave me alone. Because at Thanksgiving, we learned that Elizabeth was invited to our Thanksgiving dinner. And it's not like it was a huge dinner with a 100 people and Elizabeth just happened to be one of the guests. It was very intimate. It was literally just me and my parents.
1:30:07Elizabeth and her parents and my grandparents. was I know this is so random, but why doesn't she do her own Thanksgiving? Why is she at Christmas and Thanksgiving at at your grandfather's events? Why are they that close?
1:30:23It's a really good question. I don't really know. Um they did seem to be that close. They were extremely extremely Elizabeth was certainly closer with my grandfather than she was with her own family. like she would talk about how she really only saw her parents for like a couple hours on Christmas Eve, like once a year. That's like the time that she'd set aside to be with family. And she was very open about that. And again, it went it went back to this whole idea of having this monklike devotion to
1:30:51Theronos. It was like family is too big of a distraction from my purpose in life.
1:30:57It's weird that her parents got invited to this Thanksgiving dinner if she's not even that close to them, though.
1:31:01Yeah. Well, I think my grandparents invited them. Like I think my grandparents felt like Elizabeth should spend time with her parents, so we're gonna invite them all. Yeah.
1:31:11Okay. Sorry to digress, but that is a really intimate setting. And you have not seen her since you've resigned. And in the meantime, I should point out she has just skyrocketed to fame. She's on the cover of all these magazines. She raised a mega round of $700 million at some huge multi-billion dollar valuation. And I forget exactly what it was. I mean, she was everywhere you looked.
1:31:37Yes, she was everywhere you looked. She was That was when she became kind of like the media darling of Silicon Valley. I remember my parents didn't even want to go to Thanksgiving. They were so mad at my grandparents for inviting her and her parents that they said, "We we we're just not going to show up. We're going to do our own thing. We're not going to go deal with this." And I said, "This is exactly what Elizabeth wants. If we don't show up to our own family's Thanksgiving dinner, then she wins. And I do not want to let her win. She wants to push us out of our
1:32:06own family, and we're not going to let that happen. So, we're showing up to Thanksgiving dinner. And it's going to be uncomfortable for us, but I guarantee you it will also be uncomfortable for her.
1:32:15So, was it what happened?
1:32:20It was uncomfortable for everybody. No doubt. Uh, the conversations were all pretty awkward. Theronos had just moved into their new building on Pagemail Road. So they had started out in actually the old Facebook building. So like Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook moved out of this building and Theronos moved in and that was the building that I worked in and then when I left they moved into this brand new sparkling building on Page Mill Road. So conversation was just kind of around
1:32:49that. And what I found found found really interesting is on my first day or one of my first days when we had just moved into the old Facebook building, Elizabeth gave a tour to some scientists and part of that tour there was uh Mark Zuckerberg's office that was I had some kind of name like the cube or something.
1:33:06It was all glass and he could kind of look out into this kind of sea of where all the software developers would be just a big open space. And I remember her telling us that the glass was bulletproof. And she kind of looked down on Mark for that because she said something like he treated his employees so badly that he was afraid that one of his employees was going to come in and shoot him one day. So he made sure the glass in his office was bulletproof.
1:33:32Rich, I I don't believe that. I wouldn't know. But that doesn't sound right to me.
1:33:38That doesn't sound right to me either. I wouldn't take her word for it for sure, but this is what she told us. I just thought it was so funny that she was kind of looking down on Mark for mistreating his employees. And then in the new building on Page Mill Road, she was bragging about how every window was bulletproof.
1:33:56It's like, yeah, God, do you not do you not see what has happened here?
1:34:02Right. And then she also talked about how uh well her parents hadn't even gotten a tour of the new building yet, which just seemed crazy. And I remember after dinner, my mom told me like, "If you're ever this like huge billionaire and you build a new building, you better give me a tour of that building."
1:34:19That's the least of their problems.
1:34:22My mom was like, "It's just so rude of Elizabeth to not give a tour of this building to her parents."
1:34:27That ser that family has clearly had a lot more issues to work out than just mom getting a tour of the new building.
1:34:32Yeah, I think so. I think so. But for the most part, it was pretty boring. It was pretty awkward. Uh the probably the most notable part about dinner was Elizabeth stood up and g gave a toast and her toast I found to be incredibly creepy. She essentially she raised her glass and in my memory she was just like staring straight into my soul. She was It probably wasn't actually like that, but in my memory, it was like these glowing Night King eyes just like
1:35:02piercing into my soul. And she said, "I just want to say that I love and appreciate every single member of the Schultz family." And it felt like she was really like specifying me in in what she was saying. I feel like she maybe wanted it to sound like an olive branch that she was reaching out to me with, but to me it felt like the killer is in the house type of um type of vibe.
1:35:29You weren't tempted to be like, "Elizabeth, how can you say that after what you put me through or was that just make it more awkward and you wanted to get out of there intact?"
1:35:39Keep in mind like what he he resigned, but he also sent all these very respectful emails saying like, "Hey, I'm worried." And everyone's like, "Go away." and he just went away. So I I I I'm just guessing here, Tyler, but like the real drama hadn't even happened yet, right?
1:35:54No, the real drama hadn't even happened yet. And so I'm sure Elizabeth was probably trying to smooth things over the best she was able to to make sure that I wouldn't continue to be a problem moving on.
1:36:06But the way it came off, I found to be just incredibly creepy.
1:36:14And like I actually remember raising my wine glass and my hand was shaking uncontrollably. And like I was like it was like brain tell hand to stop shaking. And I couldn't do it cuz I was just so angry and I don't even know what the emotion was but I was like angry and scared and just incredibly frustrated all at the same time.
1:36:35Wow. Okay. So you make it through Thanksgiving and then So then what happens that kicks things off? Yeah. So, the next big event when things start happening is when a Wall Street Journal reporter actually reached out to me. And I'm skipping a little bit. So, I had actually um we were in a meeting at RO myself and my current manager who was also my former manager at Theronos. And in this meeting, she turned her laptop to me and showed me that a Wall Street
1:37:04Journal reporter had reached out to her on LinkedIn. And there wasn't a whole lot in the message, but it looked like he was a real reporter. Whereas up to that point in time, when she was on the cover of all these magazines, it seemed like no one had actually asked her a tough question. No one was doing true reporting. They were just fluff pieces to go into magazines.
1:37:24And so after the meeting, I kind of looked at his LinkedIn profile on my own laptop to kind of do more research into who this guy was. And then so he had seen that I looked at his LinkedIn page. Oh, I Oh, that's so Yeah, I hate that about LinkedIn. That's so weird.
1:37:39Remind me, Theronos was not on your LinkedIn resume because you weren't allowed to have that. Correct.
1:37:45Correct. Yeah, Theronos was not on my LinkedIn profile.
1:37:50So, but he had seen that I looked at his LinkedIn and I'm sure he knew who I was just based on his previous research and he at least knew who my grandfather was and could probably see the same last name.
1:38:03Ah, okay. Okay. And so he just, you know, he had the LinkedIn premium and I didn't. So he could see that I was looking at his LinkedIn page. Um, and then he just sent me a fairly benign LinkedIn message that said, "Hey, I'm doing a story on Theronos. Let me know if you want to talk." You know, something along those lines.
1:38:21So then I actually talked to my manager about it. I talked to my parents about it. They all said, "It's awesome that someone's looking into this, but do not talk to him. like this will just you're just opening up a hornets's nest if you go talk to this reporter. But I just couldn't get that idea out of my head. I had let like a month pass and I didn't respond to him. But in my research, I had learned that he had actually previously won a Pulitzer Prize for exposing a Medicare fraud.
1:38:49And so I felt like he could be the right person to ask the right questions. And I just I don't know what it was. couldn't not say something when he had reached out to me. Like I had tried to raise concerns with so many people and had just gotten shut down over and over and over and over again. And here was someone who was finally popped up and said, "Hey, I want to hear about this. I want to listen. I want to learn."
1:39:10And so I thought, I'm going to call him.
1:39:12And the way I kind of justified it to myself was that I'm not I'm not doing any harm. Like what I want to do is help him ask good questions. And if Elizabeth and Thanos have all the right answers, then that's great. That's fine. You know, my children's trust fund will be much healthier for it. You know, that's a great thing, right? I'm I'm totally fine being wrong. I'm more than fine being wrong. I would be so happy to be wrong. I just want to help somebody ask a good question and and hold her
1:39:40accountable. And I also knew that patients were being hurt based on the data that I saw there. And while I was there, I remember hearing about instances where we were sending patients to the emergency room because their potassium levels were so high. Um, so I knew patients were being hurt and then I also wanted to make sure that my grandfather had an opportunity to actually address this while he was alive.
1:40:05And so ultimately I decided I'm going to at least call the reporter, learn about what his angle is, see if he'll tell me about what he knows, and then I'll decide if I want to work with him.
1:40:16Okay? And I was just shocked at how open he was with me because at that point in time, everyone was so cy and secretive about what they knew and who they were talking to. And so when I called him and asked, "Hey, what do you know about Theronos?" And he just listed out a whole bunch of stuff like a lot of the stuff that I had um told you in the previous episode plus things that I had never heard of.
1:40:36Um such as the chief scientist who took his own life. I like I just learned about that.
1:40:43And you knew Ian Gibbons. You knew that scientist when I was there?
1:40:47No, that was the weirdest thing. No, I didn't know him at all.
1:40:50Cuz you were so isolated from all the other teams.
1:40:52Yeah, we were so isolated. I'd never heard of him.
1:40:56Um, so yeah, that was just a really another really eerie type of feeling.
1:41:02And so in the phone conversation with him, I just realized he's definitely the right person. He has the right background. Um there he's well resourced at the Wall Street Journal. He's clearly talking to the right people. So he clearly had a source that was above my pay grade based on some of the things that he knew.
1:41:20And at that point in time he said I'm basically looking for corroborating sources to confirm all this stuff.
1:41:26And I I just wanted to help him. I wanted to work with him. And what I told him was or at least part of what I told him was my grandfather was part of the Nixon administration during Watergate.
1:41:38He was part of the Reagan administration during the Iran Contra scandal. and he made it out of both of those with his integrity completely intact. And he's someone who's actually well known for his moral compass and doing the right thing in tough situations. So I said, if he's given the opportunity, he's absolutely going to make things right with the people that Elizabeth has hurt.
1:41:57So I want to make sure he has that opportunity cuz he was 95 years old at the time.
1:42:02I know it's going to come out. I want it to come out sooner rather than later so that she can't drag his name through the mud forever. And so that was part of my motivation. And I told John about this email exchange that I kind of had with Elizabeth and Sunny. And I could practically hear him salivating over the phone. Like he he's like, "Oh, yes.
1:42:20Yes." He wanted to to see that exchange so badly.
1:42:24By the way, just out of curiosity, did you when you're talking to him, I'm assuming you're talking to him on background at first and then at what point did you guys talk about you being on the record?
1:42:33Right. So, initially I was speaking to him on deep background. So what I was told was that he could use what I gave him to guide his reporting, but he could not, you know, directly quote anything. He could not put my name on anything.
1:42:49And so I did feel like there was some level of protection there.
1:42:52And it wasn't until much much later that I probably about a year plus later, year and a half later, that I went on the record. So it took a long time.
1:43:00So all right. So we're just in background now with John.
1:43:03Yeah, we're just in background. And I knew that he had some sources. I didn't know how many. Um, I knew he was talking to Ian Gibbons's widow. I knew that he was talking to someone again who was above my pay grade. I knew that Erica had wanted to talk to him and had probably reached out to him. I didn't know that for certain, but I I kind of thought that was the case.
1:43:25So, I knew that there was at least a solid group of us.
1:43:28Can I point out that is the person above your pay grade Adam Rosenorf? Yes.
1:43:34Okay. Who was a former lab director, right? So, he was a lab director while I was there. Um, and he I don't know exactly what happened, but he he ultimately somehow became kind of the first source for the Wall Street Journal.
1:43:51But, what I didn't know was that after I agreed to be a source, he had kind of backed out. So, so that kind of that did leave myself and Erica a little bit more vulnerable than I think we realized because I mean John didn't tell us that he had you know backed I mean he he didn't even tell us that he was a source you know to begin with and he didn't tell us that he had kind of backed out as being a source but Adam never ended up going on record is that sort of the long and short of it correct yeah he never he his name is
1:44:21even a pseudonym in the book bad blood so even at that point he was unknown and wanted to remain unknown, right?
1:44:28Alan Beam, that was his pseudonym. Yes, I know all the players.
1:44:34Yeah. He his name didn't become public until I think some of the trials.
1:44:40So, in that first call, I had essentially agreed to become a source and I agreed to give him a copy of this email and I also gave him a copy of the email exchange that I have at the New York State Department of Health. Um, so I I I gave him a lot of information, I think, and then we met up a probably a few weeks later at a bar in Mountain View. And I do remember him kind of commenting on how nervous I was when I met with him.
1:45:06And and he he said something like, you know, they are just a startup. Like, and he had a point is like, this is not the CIA that, you know, you're spilling the beans on. They are just a startup.
1:45:19True, Caroline. We shouldn't laugh. I know because they are just a startup. It's not some deep government security secret or something.
1:45:25But once you know but once you know the story and how like what actually happened like it was terrifying. I know.
1:45:32Like they're terrifying. But they are terrifying.
1:45:34Yeah. I can see why he said that. And I'm sorry to laugh, but like um just you know yikes.
1:45:41And I remember thinking he might be underestimating Elizabeth a little bit here. And I and I think later he did realize that. I think he realized, okay, yeah, I underestimated Elizabeth quite a bit. One day I just went home to have dinner with my parents. You know, I I drove down 25 minutes and I walk in the door and my dad had just gotten off the phone with my grandfather and he said, "Did you talk to the Wall Street Journal reporter?" And I I told him the truth. I said, "Yeah, I did." And my dad was just
1:46:11absolutely furious with me. He said, "You know how powerful they are. You know how much money they have. You know who's on their board. You know how scary and intimidating they are. They're going to destroy your life. They know that you're a source and they're going to destroy your life.
1:46:23Okay. So, wait, let me back up for just a second. They knew that a story was being worked on and they decided you were the source.
1:46:30Correct. They So, after doing some research for, I don't know, some period of time, John finally did reach out to Elizabeth for essentially comment.
1:46:41And then Theanos went in full-blown attack mode. Right. And and this is when we see in the background Elizabeth and Sunny exchanging texts where Sunny says, "I've narrowed it down to five people." And Elizabeth said, "It's Tyler." And Sunny said like, "We're going to nail this motherfucker." Like taking his legs out one at a time is the best way. Like all this kind of crazy like mafia type talk.
1:47:02What? Like why did they immediately assume it was you?
1:47:05Yeah. So it was pretty obvious.
1:47:09In in some ways. Like in the HBO documentary, The Inventor, they show like recordings of the Wall Street Journal and their council meeting with the Theronos Council. And in the recording, Theronos Council says, "The concerns you want to publish are the exact concerns that Tyler Schultz raised in the short period of time that he was here."
1:47:28So it was, I think, pretty obvious to Theronos.
1:47:33But at the time, I didn't know what they knew. I didn't know how obvious it was.
1:47:38And so I I actually told my dad, I was like, "There's no way they actually know that I'm a source. I did my research on this reporter. He had won a Pulitzer Prize. He's not going to just say, "Hey, I spoke to Tyler the other day and he told me X, Y, and Z." Right?
1:47:49Like, I know I have more protection than that. Even though they want me to think I don't, I know that I have more protection than that.
1:47:55Like, can I interrupt and say I feel like they're messing with your head at this point through your grandfather?
1:48:01Definitely. Okay. They're they're they're almost like overplaying their hand a little bit. um because they just have a lot more information than I have and they know that. So, I decided I'm just going to call my grandfather and I I called him up and he just said, "Hey, Tyler, tell me what's going on." And I said, "I honestly I have no idea. You got to tell me what's going on."
1:48:24And he said, "You know, I've been talking to Elizabeth and she said that you've been giving trade secrets away to the Wall Street Journal." And trade secrets. Caroline, you're the lawyer here, so I'm always looking for kind of like an like see like I'm sure what he said there's some truth to it, but most of it was not true. He said once the Wall Street Journal publishes their reporting, those trade secrets will no longer be defendable. In order to show that they tried to defend their trade secrets, they need you to sign a one-page
1:48:52non-disclosure agreement. And then if they do publish the trade secrets, as long as they've shown that they've made an attempt to protect them, they still remain trade secret.
1:49:02No, that doesn't sound right to me. I I I my understanding, and I'm not an IP lawyer, is that it's like once the secrets out, they're not they're it's just not a secret anymore. Like signing a piece of paper, it's not going to fix that. I can stand corrected here, but like I I think that's the whole point of the secret, right? Is like nobody knows.
1:49:19It's a secret. Yeah. Once you publish the trade secret to Coke, it's not a trade secret anymore because too many people know.
1:49:25Like if you publish the Coke recipe and then someone signed an NDA, like how does that unring the bell, you know, like I I guess their point was we were trying to defend it, but I I don't think that I think that that probably helps with like damages and stuff, but it doesn't fix the problem is the way I understand trade secrets. So what he told me like I again not a lawyer but what he was saying was like this doesn't really make sense like something doesn't sound right here
1:49:52but the the purpose I guess the purpose of the call was he wanted me to sign this non-disclosure agreement and he was like as long as you sign this new NDA Thanos can say they protected their trade secrets and then it's like no harm no foul and in that call I actually didn't comment one way or the other whether I had spoken to the Wall Street Journal or not. I was trying to just mostly listen. Yeah.
1:50:12And toward the end, I just said like, "Okay, I'll sign I'm happy to sign a onepage non-disclosure agreement that says I will not disclose trade secrets moving forward."
1:50:21Uh, before I do that, can I just come to your house tonight and talk to you without any lawyers around? I just want to talk to my grandfather.
1:50:29And he said, "That sounds great. Come on over at 9:00. You know, Charlotte and I are out at a dinner and but we'll be back around 900 9:30. So, come on over."
1:50:38Can I interrupt quickly just because I feel like it was glossed over? Your dad was mad when he got this call. Was he not like the maddest he's ever been at you?
1:50:48Yes. By like orders orders of magnitude probably. I I just want the audience to realize the level of stress on this.
1:51:00Yes, the stress level could literally it could not be higher. Um, my dad is generally a very calm, cool, collected person. I think also, not to pat my own back, I think I was a good kid. I didn't get in a lot of trouble when I was a kid. My dad was always strict with us, but he was never angry. You know, I'd never seen my dad angry or that upset in my life. And it just shows you how tense the situation was because it was I feel bad for my parents cuz it was like he
1:51:29feels like he just watched his son throw his life away. poof.
1:51:32And gosh, way to put it.
1:51:34I mean, he was right. And Elizabeth, Elizabeth and Sunny and Darren tried to do the things that he said they were going to do to me.
1:51:42It's amazing. He knew. Like, he knew.
1:51:45Like, he knew just from having awkward dinners with her and from hearing you talk about her before she was as scary as it all got. Like, he already knew that.
1:51:54Yeah. I mean, I think Elizabeth had, you know, made it clear in the culture that they were building at Theronos to everyone like what they were willing to do to to defend their trade secrets and and what they were willing to do to people who got in their way.
1:52:10So, you drive to your grandfather's house and this is when the hits the fan.
1:52:15Yeah. So before I even get to my grand before I drive to my grandfather's house, first I go home to the house that I was renting with like five or six friends.
1:52:24And I mean I was panicked when I was driving home. I was literally screaming profanities in the car as loudly as I could um just I don't know just to get it out. And I got home and I was clearly panicked and I was telling one of my housemates about what was going on that I was about to go over to my grandfather's house and he asked, "Well, when you go over there, are you going to tell him the truth or are you going to lie to him and tell him that you had not spoke in the Wall Street Journal?" And I said, "You know,
1:52:54the truth is on my side. I've always told the truth and as long as I continue to tell the truth, things will work out for me." And he just said, "Dude, you should definitely lie.
1:53:08And he's like, I I understand that it's like not something that you're going to be comfortable with, but you need to go over there and collect information. And at any point, you can decide to tell him the truth if it's in your best interest. But you need to go over there and just collect as much information as you can.
1:53:25And until you know that it's in your best interest to tell him the truth, do not tell the truth. Just collect information.
1:53:32This is very preient advice. It's incredible how important this advice was to your story. So, go on.
1:53:38Absolutely. Yeah. And then actually the other thing he said is you should talk to a lawyer before you go over there.
1:53:43And he that was also great advice. I should have listened to this friend a lot more. Um are you still friends with this person?
1:53:49Yeah, definitely. And and he was like I I know a lawyer who's like a friend of mine. Let me call him. We were calling the phone number and as the phone was ringing I was like hang up. You have to hang up. Like I cannot talk to anybody about this.
1:54:02Yeah. That is how scared I was and and how really how much I didn't know about the situation I was in. I was too afraid to talk to a lawyer because I thought it was precluded by my NDAs.
1:54:12The NDA, by the way, we should clarify, is the one you signed at Theronos, not the one that was waiting for you at your grandpa's house.
1:54:17Correct. Correct. Yeah. And yeah, so I clearly just didn't know what I was doing. I had not interacted with the legal system enough to really have a good grasp on this situation.
1:54:26Most 24 year olds haven't.
1:54:29Let's face it. I mean, you're so when you tell finished telling the story, you seem so sophisticated. So, go on.
1:54:35Yeah. So, I just I thought that's really smart. I should try to lie and and collect information. But I didn't even know if a lie could be plausible in any way. So, I thought I got to I got to know what the Wall Street Journal reporter told Elizabeth. So, I called John and I was again panicked and and I said, "Did you tell them that I'm a source?" He said, "No, of course not."
1:54:58And um I just said he said I I'll send you every communication I've had with them because there's very little actually. I said I would I would love to read that. So he forwarded me this email that he sent to Elizabeth where he he just asked her probably 10 or so questions and there was not really an answer to any of them. And just based on that first email that he had sent them, they had figured out that I was a source. And in reading it, I actually felt very comforted because I felt like
1:55:26there's nothing in here that could exclusively have come from me except for one number. He wrote that for some of the tests, your coefficient of variation can be as high as 42.9%.
1:55:44Like it was for TSH. So it was a very specific piece of information with you know three significant digits in the number and I just thought you know that is how they figured me out is that just that one number but I also thought scientists share data and information all the time. It's completely plausible that I could have calculated that number and you know I included it in my email to Elizabeth which is why why they're able to pick it out so obviously but I could have also shared it with tons of people.
1:56:12Yeah. So, I felt like that is not damning. That is not damning at all. So, then I felt like, okay, I can I can lie.
1:56:19So, I went over to my grandfather's house and I got there before they actually came home. Um, so I waited outside their house for for my parents for my grandparents to come home from the party. And I go in and when when they get home, we go in and we discuss and I kind of reiterate all the old points that I'd already gone over with him. He reiterated all of his own points. He again said that these devices are currently in medevac helicopters. He said he's he said that the person who
1:56:48Henry Kissinger says is the smartest person in the world is this surgeon from New York and that surgeon says that it's revolutionizing the field of surgery. He said that it's currently in operating rooms at UCSF. And I again I just said there's no way any of this is true.
1:57:03There's just I I don't know how else to explain it to you. There's just there's flat out no way. and he said, "Well, you know, whatever the case may be, would you sign a one-page non?" Oh, actually, I skipped over an important part. So, I I obviously said, "I have not spoken to the Wall Street Journal. I don't know why they think I have." And he said, "Elizabeth told me that the reporter is using complete sentences out of an email that you sent to Elizabeth." And so, I knew that was not true because I
1:57:32Right. I'd seen them.
1:57:34You'd seen them. Yeah, I'd seen it. So I I that was nice cuz I could very confidently say that can't be true. I don't know how that could be true. There's no I didn't share that email with anybody. There's no way that he's using complete sentences.
1:57:47And so again, it was just another instance where I could see Elizabeth like taking a little seedling of a truth and just expanding it. And so ultimately he did he ended up saying, you know, whatever the case may be, will you just sign this onepage NDA that say says you won't disclose trade secrets moving forward? And I said, "Sure, you know, happy to sign this onepage NDA." And he said, "Well, there's actually two Theronos lawyers here right now. Can I go get them?"
1:58:15I was totally blindsided because I was very, very specific and saying, "I want to talk to you without any lawyers around." And he had agreed to that. And I also said some other things to him in that conversation that I assumed were private that, you know, I'm not even saying right now on this podcast that I absolutely would not have said if I knew that there were Boyce Schiller's lawyers in the house.
1:58:40By the way, were they hiding or like where were could could they have overheard the conversation? I guess is my question.
1:58:46It is absolutely plausible that they overheard the conversation.
1:58:49Oh wow. Okay. I don't know exactly where they were, but they they got there before you.
1:58:55They were So they were there before me and I got there before my grandparents, right?
1:58:59Laying in the devious.
1:59:01I know. So devious.
1:59:02So they were there well ahead of time.
1:59:05And then when I came in, there was no mention that they were there.
1:59:12It is. It I mean, yeah. I I still look back on that and just think how bold and crazy is it for Elizabeth to try to pull something like that off and actually got my grandfather to go along with it in some way. It's hard to know what was intentional and what was, you know, maybe an oversight. Like maybe that he just forgot to tell me that the lawyers were there, but it seems like a really like important piece of information to just leave out.
1:59:37And I don't think that's the type of thing he would just leave out on his own. I feel like he was probably told or coached or somehow coerced into not telling me that those lawyers were there.
1:59:50And they were waiting with not just an NDA. Tell us what they were waiting with.
1:59:56So I, you know, I said, "Sure, I'll sign this onepage NDA. Go get the lawyers." And so he walked up the stairs to get the lawyers. And my stepg grandmother had been sitting there listening, mostly just listening the whole time. And as soon as he had turned the corner, she turned to me and said, "Henry Kissinger thinks this is all fake. He thinks the box doesn't actually exist."
2:00:20Go Charlotte. I And I said, "Yes, absolutely. There's a board member who's a former Secretary of State who essentially has the exact same concerns that I have. Maybe not articulated in the same way. You know, he's just saying the box doesn't exist." And I still don't understand why there was so much pressure put on me in this situation when you have a board member who is essentially saying the exact same thing.
2:00:44Exactly. Well, he has a fiduciary duty.
2:00:48Yes. And I just told my grand my stepg grandmother, I said, "He's absolutely right. You need we need to somehow figure out how to get the board to listen to Henry Kissinger here." But I didn't have a whole lot of time to talk to her because again, the lawyers weren't very far. They were like basically right around the corner.
2:01:07So, we had maybe, you know, 30 seconds to talk. And so, then these two lawyers come in and they did not give me a one-page NDA.
2:01:16They gave me a temporary restraining order, a strongly worded letter signed by somebody named David Boy, who I had never heard of at the time. And then there was also this notice for me to appear in court on Friday morning. And this was on Wednesday night.
2:01:32Yeah. It was like this notice to appear in court. And I I'm still a little bit confused by that. I should pull up the documents at some point, but I remember like when I did end up getting legal counsel, they were like, "Yeah, you have this notice to appear in court, but there's actually not like a specific there's like something else that they need to register with the court that they never did." Like there was no like specific complaint that came along with it because it's a TTRO. Those are usually just done on a much faster track, right?
2:01:55Because it's a restraining order. So they must have But they it sounds like they didn't do something correct in terms of procedure.
2:02:01Yeah, it was all very confusing to me.
2:02:03And um I have a non-awyer question really, but I feel like listeners might be interested. So, they're sitting here with all these documents. Why in the heck are you going to sign any of them?
2:02:16What What is in it for you? Obviously, we know why they want you to sign it, but why do they have any leverage over you at this point? You've resigned.
2:02:24Yeah, that's a great question. Uh that's how I felt as well, but they just tried to basically bully me into signing these. You know, they they were very aggressive. They So, they like handed you the pen and they're like, "Here you go, Tyler. You just told your grandpa you were going to do it." And then what what were you saying to them?
2:02:40Well, I said, "Well, I told my grandfather that I was going to sign a onepage non-disclosure agreement. I'm not a lawyer, but these are obviously not non-disclosure agreements. I'm going to sign these."
2:02:49Uh, and so we argued a lot and they wanted to actually get names of other sources. And they also did not buy that.
2:02:58I was not a source. I told them, "I'm not a source and I don't understand why you think I am." And they said, "It is so obvious. It was our job to figure out who the sources were and it took us five minutes to figure you out." It was that obvious. And they said, "You need to admit that to us now. And we also need you to give us the names of other sources."
2:03:18How rich is that, Carolyn? I mean, is it's shocking. It's shocking.
2:03:23And I just said, "Absolutely not." I just said, "Nope, I haven't. I don't know why you think I have spoken to the Wall Street Journal and I'm not going to tell you names of other sources that I may or may not know. I see no reason why that is not my responsibility here. That's not my job.
2:03:37And my grandfather actually came to my defense on that one. You know, he would say like my grandson is not a rat.
2:03:45Said that's not his job. That's your job to figure out who the sources are. They asked me to see things from their perspective and they're like, "You can understand how we wouldn't be doing our jobs if we didn't get that information from you." It's like, "You must see that we that you need to work with us on this." And I just remember thinking like, I don't give a flying about your job, right? Exactly.
2:04:10It's such a weird tactic to take, like a Stockholm syndrome tactic. and and also the fact that they're springing this on you like no one signs documents that they haven't had their lawyer read. So, keep going.
2:04:22And later um much later when my grandfather was deposed, I'm glad that we have this, you know, under oath and on the record, he says that the lawyers were he described him as a wild animal who assaulted his grandson.
2:04:36And it's it's very nice that I have that while he was alive, he's not alive anymore. So, while he was alive under oath on the record because I'm just, you know, constantly afraid of their, you know, their gaslighting attempts and they're they're they're they would mischaracterize how that meeting went, I'm sure.
2:04:55Um, so it was just so nice to finally get that. And then my stepg grandmother was looking very uncomfortable. And in fact, in I think in that deposition, my grandfather said something like my wife was going to pull the poker out of the fire and start hitting the lawyers with it. And she she was looking really upset and angry at how these lawyers were treating me. And so I asked her, I said, "Are these lawyers making you uncomfortable?" And she said, "Yes." And
2:05:23so I looked at the lawyers and I said, "You're making my grandmother uncomfortable. This conversation needs to end." And they continued to just press me.
2:05:34And then eventually my grandfather got upset and he stood up and said, "All right, you guys got to get out of my house." And so he kicked him out of the house and then he came back and said, "Well, that was a disaster. Can we just invite Elizabeth over and have a conversation with her?"
2:05:49And I was so tired. I said, "Please, no." Like I I just I don't have it in me to talk to her right now. And he said, "Well, that's fine. How about we just call her on the phone instead?" So we went and we dialed up Elizabeth. I could only hear one side of the phone call, but my grandfather said, "We were trying to have a discussion and you sent over a litigator. tomorrow I want you to send over different lawyers and you need to send the the onepage non-disclosure agreement like we had discussed. Yeah.
2:06:16So at least he was aware that he also had been kind of coerced into something that he had not signed up for. He was completely taken advantage of in that situation and he somewhat realized it. He pretty much completely blamed the lawyers and basically said Elizabeth was completely innocent. He thought the lawyers went rogue, that they were not listening to their client, that Elizabeth did not want that to happen, but the lawyers did it anyway.
2:06:42Yeah. No, that's there's no way. That's completely delusional. And so I I went home and didn't sleep at all. Um, and then came back the next morning. And of course, it was the same two lawyers that came and they did not bring a one-page NDA. They brought a an affidavit and I don't think I'd even heard the word affidavit in my life at that point in time,
2:07:11which just shows you how unequal the playing field really was. You have these like top tier lawyers from like one of the most powerful law firms in the country negotiating with someone who has never heard the word affidavit before.
2:07:26Yeah, that's absurd.
2:07:29That is absurd. And this affidavit says, "My name is Tyler Schultz. I have not spoken to the Wall Street Journal, but here's a list of names of people who have." And then it said, "Under penalty of perjury." And then there was a line for my name.
2:07:42They're like, "Okay, so fill in these blanks with all the sources and then sign your name under penalty of perjury." And even though I didn't know what an affidavit was, I luckily did know that I do not want to commit perjury.
2:07:55So I knew this is a document I do not want to sign. So I said, I'm not going to sign this because I'm not going to list names of people I think have spoken in the Wall Street Journal. And luckily again, my grandfather came to my defense on that one. And then we started arguing again. U they were asking me to see things from their perspective. And so things were starting to get very heated again, much like they were the previous night. And so my grandfather actually had to physically separate us. So we put the lawyers in his living room and I was in his dining room. and that he was just
2:08:24kind of going between these two rooms to negotiate this affidavit.
2:08:28Once again, it's not a one-page NDA. So, why isn't your grandpa like, "This is wrong. This is not what I was told. We're being bullied here."
2:08:36And my grandson needs a lawyer. A lawyer.
2:08:40I don't know. He just had this huge blind spot for Elizabeth. He would just kind of do whatever she wanted him to do. And again, like from the other room, I can kind of hear him berating the lawyers saying, you know, my grandson's not a rat. Like we got to take out the naming names part. And I thought that there's no way that they would do that.
2:09:01Um but they did. And so my grandfather came back to me and said, "You got what you wanted. Go ahead and and sign this affidavit." And I said, "No, I I still can't sign this because I literally have in my hand a notice to appear in court tomorrow morning." And as far as I can tell, I can sign this affidavit, but this notice to appear in court doesn't just disappear. So, I want this affidavit to say that Theronos won't sue me. And so, he wrote in literally in
2:09:31pencil at the bottom of this affidavit, pencil, he wrote Theronos will not sue Tyler for two years.
2:09:41Why did your grandpa pick two years?
2:09:44That was my That was my exact same reaction. I said, "Yeah."
2:09:51I said, "Two years is not long enough." And he said, "Well, we're trying to negotiate, so we need to find middle ground."
2:09:58I said, "This is not middle ground for me." And so he crossed out two years and wrote forever. So now in pencil at the bottom it says Theronos will not sue Tyler forever.
2:10:08God this is so crazy. That's so crazy.
2:10:12And yeah and so then he brings it to the Theronos lawyers and I again think you know I've totally outsmarted these people. There's no way they're going to agree to not sue me. That's like the one lever they have. They're not going to give it up. And I was shocked they agreed to it. They came back cuz it's in pencil.
2:10:27Cuz it's in pencil.
2:10:28They were going to erase it. They also knew that I was lying. And basically they were calling my bluff and they were like I could tell like when we all came back into the room I could tell that everybody knew that I was about to commit perjury.
2:10:43And that I like I could sense the feeling in the room like they were in a very good mood. Like I felt like they're about to get what they want. If I sign this they're going to be very very happy.
2:10:53So I was trying to think of new reasons to not sign this document and I could not think of any of them. And so in it, it said something like, "I understand my non-disclosure agreement." So I said, "In order for me to sign this, I need to work read every word of the non-disclosure agreements I've already signed." So they gave me these copies of these very, very long non-disclosure agreements that I signed when I joined as an intern, when I joined as a full-time employee, and then again when I left the company.
2:11:18So I had a lot of reading to do. And then I was just pretending to read, flipping through the pages just trying to think of like, what do I say next?
2:11:25What do I say next? And I couldn't think of anything. And so eventually what I said was, "Elizabeth has had these lawyers look at this with her best interest in mind. So before I sign this, I think I want to have a lawyer look at this with my best interest in mind."
2:11:39Yeah, that's brilliant. That's brilliant though cuz I would have actually just dipped out the back door. I would have just walked.
2:11:46I would have just ran.
2:11:47But when I said that, my my grandfather had this visible eye roll like, "Oh my god, this, you know, smartass kid wanting a lawyer." And so he said, 'All right, if my estate attorney says it's okay to sign, would you sign it? And I said, ' So he said, 'All right, I'm going to go fax this to him.' So he left the room to go fax the document, and I went into his kitchen and was flipping through their physical contact book trying to find the phone number of their lawyer. And then luckily, my stepgrandmother came in the room and
2:12:15literally like slapped a piece of paper in my hand that had a number written on it. And she just said, "Go outside and call him." And so she's my favorite in my she's my favorite.
2:12:25She is she was quietly very very helpful to me and she was in a very tough position herself. Um and she she was as helpful as she could be.
2:12:35And so I stepped outside with all these documents and I called him and he picked up the phone and I said, "My grandfather's about to send you something. He's going to tell you to tell me that I have to sign it, but you have to tell him that I can't sign it."
2:12:46And he was just like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down here. tell me about what's going on. So, I told him more about what was going on. And he said, "Okay, well, who's representing them, and to be honest with you, I wasn't paying attention to the names of these lawyers that I was arguing with, but I had this letter signed by David Boy." So, I thought I was talking to David Boy this whole time. And so, I said, "They're being represented by someone named David Boyas."
2:13:12And he just went, "Holy shit." which is maybe not something you want your to hear your lawyer saying.
2:13:23Oh, by the way, this is also a trust and estates lawyer. So, this is the guy who like sets up your trust, not like defense, oh, and he has like he has been my grandfather's estate attorney for a long long time. So, I had met him before. Um, he was a night I knew he was a nice guy.
2:13:39I hadn't interacted with him a whole lot. Um, but he just said, you know, he said, "Do you know who David Boyce is?"
2:13:46I said, "No, I have no idea." And he said, "Well, he's known as like the number one gun in corporate America."
2:13:53Uh, like he famously shredded Bill Gates in the Microsoft US government lawsuit, and he's like the Clinton's lawyer, and he actually later became Harvey Weinstein's lawyer, and he's just been a very high-profile lawyer. He's been involved in all kinds of cases. And so this estate attorney said, "This is actually extremely serious. You need to come up to my office right now. I'm dropping everything I have today."
2:14:20Yeah. So that was hugely helpful. So I went back inside and I told the Theronos lawyers I was leaving. I said, "The lawyer wants me to go meet with him up in San Francisco, so I'm going to leave." And they said, "All right, you can leave, but you have to be back here by 1:00. You have to be back here."
2:14:34Who the hell are they Who are they to issue these ultimatums?
2:14:38Who do they think they are?
2:14:41And I agreed. I said, "Sure. Yeah, I'll be back here at 1." So, I got in the car. I drove drove up to San Francisco and later.
2:14:49Yeah. See you. Peace. And I I I really grew to like this estate attorney quite a bit actually when I was just totally frantic and panicked. He was this very calming um force to kind of have on my side that day.
2:15:04Yeah. And when it seemed like he was like, you know, he was taking his time to read the documents and like understand things and I was kind of like, we got to speed things up here. I have to be back there at 1:00. He was just like, there's no way you're going back there at 1:00.
2:15:21Glad to hear that.
2:15:22Yeah. And and we kind of spent the day, he was kind of arguing with the theos lawyers on the phone all day long. And I went to bed that night with that TTRO notice to appear in court. the following morning and I woke up to an email from the Theronos lawyers saying that they were going to give me more time to negotiate with them. This kind of kicked off this horrible, horrible cycle where it would feel like we're about to go to court. We're about to go to court and then they would pull it away at the last minute and say, "We're going to give you
2:15:51more time to negotiate." And we just did that over and over and over where we we would kind of like start the negotiation process over again every time, which was so frustrating.
2:16:00Oh, designed to exhaust you. By the way, this is a war of attrition, right?
2:16:05It absolutely was. Yeah. And I didn't I didn't realize that till probably too late.
2:16:09But at that point in time, I just, you know, the estate attorney said, you know, I like you and all, but this is not my field of expertise. You know, you need to find a new lawyer. And he made a really good recommendation to somebody.
2:16:22And at that point in time, I just I lawyered up in every single way. I had a highly specialized IP attorney who was kind of like my main counsel, the quarterback of the team, but then I also had a criminal defense lawyer. I was working with a litigator. I was working with a defamation lawyer. I was working with whistleblowing attorneys.
2:16:42Um like I I just had all these lawyers and I told them my goal is to stay out of the courtroom. Like I want if possible to just you know have I want I don't want to go to court. I don't want this to consume my life. I want this to go away, so just keep me out of a courtroom. And so that was the main goal and quickly realized this is going to be very, very expensive. Uh, I did end up spending around like $400 to $500,000 in
2:17:10legal fees. You know, it was very intense. It got very scary. They had private investigators who were following me. I knew they were following me following me because I received a tip and and kind of what I was told that whether I'm aware of it or not, it's like 80 to 90% of the time I'm in public, I'm being watched.
2:17:26I'm assuming the goal was to intimidate you, but they also think they were going to bust you meeting with the Wall Street Journal reporter or with other reporters.
2:17:33I think it was probably under the guise that they wanted to know who I was talking to, who I was working with, who you know, the reporters I was I was maybe talking to. I don't think that was the real reason. I think the real reason they were following me was because they wanted me to know that I was being followed.
2:17:50And they wanted to scare me.
2:17:52Yeah. Yeah. So, it was all about intimidation and not about like actually collecting information.
2:17:56Yeah. Cuz they didn't really they didn't really hide it all.
2:18:00Yeah. And you weren't going to go like, "Oh, here I'm meeting with another source." Like Yeah. You wouldn't you wouldn't have done that anyway. So, yeah.
2:18:06So, it's super expensive. Your parents think they're going to like have to mortgage their house, right?
2:18:12Right. So, so I admitted that I had spoken to the Wall Street Journal. My argument was that I had not told him trade secrets. Their argument was that you did tell him trade secrets. Okay.
2:18:22The the the the court case would have been are the things that I told him trade secret or not secrets. Right. Right. Right.
2:18:29And so my belief was they would not be considered trade secrets. Right.
2:18:35When I finally went and this was like the root of all of this legal tension was is this a trade secret or not?
2:18:40Yes. Which is why when I finally did go on the record with the Wall Street Journal, you know, fast forwarding a little bit, my the statement that I gave to them was fraud is not a trade secret.
2:18:50That was like the root of my argument.
2:18:53So quotable, fraud is not a trade exactly what they wanted me to do. So at that point in time when I was saying, I want to stay out of a courtroom, they would say, okay, we won't take you to court, but you're going to sign these affidavit. And what they were trying to do was to try to get me to retract things that I had said to the Wall Street Journal.
2:19:11And I was refusing to do that.
2:19:14And basically what I ended up telling my parents when they were begging me to sign these affidavits that they had never seen. Like they were saying our like your grandfather called and he said if you have any control over that son of yours, get him to sign this document and this will all disappear. And I should also add that when like going backwards a little bit when my grandfather said there's this onepage NDA that you should sign. He said if you sign this onepage document it will end a world of suffering for you. I'm sure he was
2:19:43saying similar things to my parents on the phone. We've given Tyler this opportunity to end this suffering and he's chosen to not end it and he's being completely unreasonable. So they were begging me to sign these affidavit. They said, "We will sell our house to pay for your legal fees, but please do not make us do that. Just sign this document and let it go. This is not your responsibility. This is the responsibility of the FDA, of CMS, of
2:20:12the SEC, of the DOJ, of the FBI. This is not a Tyler problem anymore. Give up."
2:20:18and your and those affidavits would have said would have forced you to say I lied to a journalist about what's going on at Theronos. Is that what you would have had to have declared in those affidavits?
2:20:30Essentially, yeah. So, I still am not supposed to talk about the specifics of those affidavit because um the I guess I don't know the confidentiality agreement was not between me and Theronos. It was between me and the law firm.
2:20:42Okay. So I I am pretty careful to not talk about the specifics of those affidavites, but I can tell you they what like the goal of the affidavit was to get me to retract statements from the wall. They were trying to kill the Wall Street Journal and pretty much everything you can invent in your head like the types of things they were they would try to get me to do or say is what that word.
2:21:00And by the way, the the article hasn't come out yet, right? Because is is the is John still trying to research it?
2:21:06Right. So he's still trying to publish he's trying to get comment from Theronos.
2:21:11Yeah. And the same legal pressure is being put on him in the Wall Street Journal.
2:21:15I was gonna bring this up.
2:21:16Simultaneously they are going gang busters against the Wall Street Journal.
2:21:21If you read Bad Blood, which is such an excellent book, he talks about the insane pressure that he was under. And luckily his editor stood up for him and Murdoch, the ultimate owner of the Wall Street Journal, stood up for the Wall Street Journal. So it's incredible the amount of attack attack they were going going on. What was crazy is while this was happening, I learned that Rupert Murdoch was an investor in Theronos.
2:21:49I didn't know that.
2:21:51Yeah. So, Rupert Murdoch owns the Wall Street Journal and invested, I think, $125 million into Theronos.
2:21:57Oh, wow. and not that much, you know, not that long before all of this happened, just, you know, maybe a year, he did a really good job of standing out of the way and saying, "If this is all untrue, you're in good hands."
2:22:10I think the other thing that I've heard, um, I don't even remember where I heard this was that he made some comment like, "Why do you have all this security following you everywhere?" Like, I'm an actual billionaire and I don't have this much security.
2:22:21I love that. That's great. So, all this craziness is going on. you're totally stressed out. At what point in the process did you sort of start really going to the lowest point and cutting yourself off from people? So, was that after the article came out or before?
2:22:42Okay. Can you tell us a little bit about the lowest point?
2:22:46Yeah. So, probably the the lowest point is before the Wall Street Journal has published. I think they're going to publish, but at this point, I've completely cut off communication with John for obvious reasons. Yeah.
2:22:56So, I don't know for sure if they're going to publish even, but I know if they did publish, I was so afraid that someone was going to send me a text or something and say, "Oh, I remember you saying XYZ back in 2013 when you worked there." And I was so afraid of those texts and then being subpoenaed. And then, you know, I didn't know how hard Theronos was going to come after me after the articles came out. And then they would use that against me to show
2:23:24that I was, you know, pretty loose with their trade secrets. And what I had learned by that point in time was that you cannot destroy evidence. And so I was not destroying evidence.
2:23:37Exfoliation is our fancy word for that.
2:23:40You're not allowed to destroy evidence, but you are allowed to not create new evidence. So I blocked every single number in my phone.
2:23:50Went through my phone book one by one.
2:23:52block block block block blocked every single number. I was also just so stressed out all the time and small questions if I met up with a friend like how how are you doing would just freak me out would just make me so stressed that I decided that it was easier to not see friends anymore. So I were you married at this point?
2:24:12No, I was not married.
2:24:13Okay, that comes at the happy ending. Carolyn, we're still I'm sorry. I didn't mean to skip ahead.
2:24:20So I really truly isolated myself. Um I was working a lot and I went after Ro I went back to the lab at Stanford and I found it to be very therapeutic to go in and work on lab work and try to focus on something else. So, I was putting a lot of hours in at the lab and a lot of hours in with my legal counsel and not a lot of hours sleeping or having friends.
2:24:43And that was yeah, just very very dark days, very very lonely. And really the only way you could communicate with me was over Snapchat. And I liked that for two reasons. One, the messages disappear, which was great. And I thought, you know, if Theronos has some lawsuit with Snapchat, I would never lie. I would say, yeah, I'd communicate with people over Snapchat. And if they're no sued Snapchat to get a hold of those messages, I thought that would be kind of a fun, you know, fun spectacle for me to watch happen.
2:25:12But really the main reason was that there are types of conversations that people will have with you over the phone or over text that they will not have over Snapchat, right?
2:25:20And those were the types of conversations I was trying to avoid. But for the most part, I just mostly stopped communicating. And you know, I was very lonely and at some point I thought it would be really nice to, you know, talk to somebody who actually didn't know me before. So I did get on Tinder and started going on Tinder dates and so that was, you know, kind of like a good distraction for me.
2:25:40I was just going to say a nice distraction. You like slept with a knife next to your bed.
2:25:45Yes. Yeah. I was I was terrified. My mental health was terrible. So after my parents got their lawyer, after they met with her for the first time and they exchanged documents and notes and whatever, she went to a wedding and during the wedding, someone broke into her car and stole her briefcase that had all those documents and notes.
2:26:05And it is likely a complete coincidence.
2:26:09No, it's not. But Come on.
2:26:13It did did not feel like a coincidence.
2:26:16I'll tell you that much. when you know you're being followed by somebody, when you know like the extent to which you're being bullied, when you know how fiercely they protect themselves. I just realized I did not know where the line was. I didn't know if maybe they would be capable of breaking into a lawyer's car and stealing their briefcase. I don't know, probably. And then I felt like maybe they'll try to kill me.
2:26:41Maybe. And and I thought Sunny would try to do it himself. he'll show up at my house one day and take me out.
2:26:47Um, so there were times when I would hear like a rustling outside my window and my heart rate would abs would just skyrocket. You know, it would go up to 180 and I would just be laying there in bed thinking tonight's the night.
2:26:58And could you tell your roommates that this was going on or No, I did not. No, I could not tell my roommates. And at one point I was also told that it wouldn't that I shouldn't be too surprised if the FBI shows up at my house and goes through it and looks for documents or things, laptops.
2:27:18And so I was thinking like maybe it would be a good idea to give my roommates a heads up that it's not completely implausible for the FBI to show up and rumage around their stuff. But I just didn't know how to tell them that without just like setting off all kinds of alarm bells. So, I decided to not tell them.
2:27:35This is still so perplexing cuz I would have thought your criminal all your lawyers would have been like, "Uh, yeah, the FBI doesn't care about this. This is not state secrets we're talking about, right?" So, like, why would the FBI care?
2:27:48It just seems like every bullying tactic, and I would have thought your team would have been like, "Tyler, you're being bullied. Ignore." Like, the FBI is not coming to search your apartment. But, I don't know. Maybe it's more complicated than I'm realizing, but that just seems so important. I don't know. It it does seem very implausible now, but when you look back when I was in that moment, it just felt like I believe you felt that like viscerally, but I'm just saying I'm sad that and maybe your legal team did do this, but I would have hoped they would have been
2:28:18like, "No, no, no, no, no. This is don't worry about it. Please don't worry about it." Like, in general, I I did find I really liked my legal counsel. I found them to be very comforting.
2:28:27But they were they were also I think they were hyper defensive, you know, they were hyper hyperdefensive. So, they just wanted to let me know like if the FBI shows up, don't be too surprised. Let them in. You've given us everything you need to give us. It's not that, you know, it will not be that big of a deal if the FBI shows up at your house.
2:28:45Um they they also would say things like, you know, if you go to a bar and like this really pretty girl starts talking to you, don't trust her.
2:28:54Like we've seen it before where they send someone out to go flirt with you and collect information. They're like just don't believe it. Just they need to make a movie of just your subplot of this whole story. Get Elizabeth Holmes. Can I just point a tiny little thing to Caroline just in case you missed this?
2:29:12The woman who the lawyer who had her um documents stolen out of her car, that was his parents' lawyer that they hired to communicate with Tyler's lawyer so that Tyler could tell his parents what was going on. He didn't even feel comfortable confiding in them directly.
2:29:33How insane is that?
2:29:35It's insane. It's insane.
2:29:37Yeah. And and my lawyers thought that would be a good idea because again, I couldn't talk to anybody. And it was clear to us that they were getting a lot of misinformation from my grandfather.
2:29:45So they said, "Should we set up your parents with lawyers so that their lawyers can come and we can come and you can talk to your parents with everybody's lawyers around?" And we so we set that up. But then it turns out that talking to your parents with a whole bunch of lawyers around is is not quite the same as just confiding in your parents.
2:30:07So, are we missing anything critical before the Wall Street Journal article does come out? Is there any other important plotline?
2:30:19I don't think so. I think that that mostly covers it.
2:30:21What's the time frame we're talking about here? Like how long was this period? This was probably around four months.
2:30:28Okay. So like roughly Thanksgiving, four months go by.
2:30:31Yeah. So we had we had the Thanksgiving and then it was that May after Thanksgiving that there was that incident with my in my grandfather's living room.
2:30:41And then the Wall Street Journal finally releases their reporting in October. So it's pretty much from May to October. Got it. Okay. That whole summer.
2:30:50So you are at a really low point. Your mental health is just in the toilet. You have lawyered up. Your parents are worried they're going to lose their house. Everything. You can't confide in anyone. The Wall Street Journal article comes out and you didn't know cuz you've ghosted John Kerrue at this point. What happens when that article comes out?
2:31:14So when that article came out, it was it was actually came out late one night. So it was like the evening before it was on the front page of the newspaper. And I read it and I was hugely disappointed.
2:31:29Cuz I just felt like the Wall Street Journal had pulled a lot of punches. I felt like there's a there was a lot more they could have gone after here.
2:31:38And I thought this is not enough.
2:31:40Elizabeth will come back to that. She's going to come out swinging and she might come out on top and she's going to if she does, she's going to make sure she takes me down. So I was scared. But what I didn't realize was that the Wall Street Journal had planned a series of reports. It wasn't just the one article.
2:31:57It was like punch after punch after punch that went on and on and on. And initially, Elizabeth did fight back with everything she had. And as time went on, eventually I think they kind of gave up.
2:32:10They stopped. But based on the Wall Street Journal reporting, CMS did this big inspection. The FDA did a big inspection. And they said that there were practices in the laboratory that put patients health in immediate jeopardy and that Elizabeth was not wasn't allowed to like be the CEO or operate a lab for 2 years. And to some extent I was surprised at what they were able to find. like Theronos had documented some of their crimes really
2:32:38well because I had been saying things like quality controls failed and then we chose to run patient samples anyway which is clearly illegal but I thought there's not going to be a record of that they're smart enough if they're they're smart enough to delete the records right I guess not like they they recorded quality control failed patient sample ran and so was so I think when CMS went in and did their inspection it was like pretty pretty cut and dry pretty obvious that Theronos was breaking the law.
2:33:08Maybe because Elizabeth wasn't down in those weeds to do that possibly. I also when I was there, I remember people talking about the possibility of keeping two sets of books. One where they actually kept track of things for their own internal purposes and then another set of books that they would show to regulators. And so apparently that wasn't implemented because the regulators or or because the regulators found the stuff that that they were going to try to hide.
2:33:30Maybe it was a mini rebellion by the current employees. Yeah, could be. Could be some current employee thinking, "Yeah, we're going to show this."
2:33:38Yeah. So, okay. So, the artic how what was the the spacing of these articles?
2:33:43Was it like one every two weeks or like what was the pace?
2:33:46It was varied for sure. Initially, it was pretty rapid. Like, I think the second one came out like a only a day or two after the first one.
2:33:55And then after that, it was probably every week, two weeks for a little while.
2:33:59Something something like that. And what's what happens to your legal wrangling while these articles are being published?
2:34:07So, it seems like they at that point kind of move on from me.
2:34:12Oh, I kind of I stopped hearing from them for the most part. And so, I realiz I think they realized they just had bigger fish to fry, more important things to worry about. The story was out there.
2:34:23The story was out there. There was maybe it was less useful to keep bullying me. Uh, so they mostly moved on from me.
2:34:32But I I still felt like I was being bullied in a number of ways. Um, one of the biggest ways was almost a year later, my the board releases a statement saying that they still give Elizabeth 100% of their support. And I just couldn't believe it. After I had been fully vindicated, it just drove me crazy that my grandfather was still on the board and they released this statement.
2:34:56And I just I was just so disappointed in him. Um, and there were even things that I had told him that he just flat out didn't believe that had then been proven over and over and over again in these articles. Like when I told him, like I told you earlier in last episode that when the clea inspectors came to give us our certification, we they weren't shown the lab that had theos devices. I had said that and that it just sounds too implausible to believe. And then David
2:35:26Boyce was actually asked to comment on that and he said, "Well, the inspectors never asked to see that room." So he but like in saying that he's confirming that what I said was actually true. So like all these things where I felt like I was being gaslit where I saw something happen and they're like, "No, that didn't happen. That didn't happen." Finally, I had proof where I'm like, "Yes, that did happen. It's in writing.
2:35:47It is now been confirmed by your own legal counsel." And yet my grandfather still didn't believe me. He still wasn't on my side.
2:35:54he still supported her. And around that same time, I learned that I was still being followed by private investigators because I hadn't spoken to John Keroo in a very long time and he had sent me an email saying, "Hey, I happened to be on the Stanford campus if you want to meet up for lunch." So, I had met up with him and then two days later, I got notified by the Theronos lawyers that they knew I was meeting with him again.
2:36:16So, they were following somebody, whether it was me or whether it was John, who knows, but they were following somebody.
2:36:20A year later, they were doing this.
2:36:23Yeah. It's whacked.
2:36:25That's all that money those investors put in. It's being spent on, you know.
2:36:29Yeah, it really was.
2:36:31Well, legal fees for the most part, but also like people to tail you.
2:36:36Mostly legal fees. Since we are the social radars, I do want to ask you a quick question about your grandfather that you shared in your audible thicker than water uh book which was excellent or interview where you went to his house and read him a letter that you had crafted. Can you roughly say what was in that and what h how he responded?
2:37:01Sure. So essentially that was in response to this the board putting out that statement and I thought you know at this point it's fine if he wants to support Elizabeth over me but I'm going to make sure he looks really bad doing it and frankly I don't think he's going to have the guts to continue supporting Elizabeth once it publicly looks so bad for him. And so I thought I'm going to go on the record because they're still following me with private investigators.
2:37:24My grandfather's still on the board.
2:37:25They were doing a number of other things where I felt like they were still bullying me. And I felt like literally I felt like why am I the one who feels like I need to hide? They need to hide from me. They should be the ones who are afraid. I've done nothing wrong. I will put my name on this. And so I decided I'm going to go on the record. But before that, I did want to get give him really one last opportunity to do the right thing just mostly to be fair to him. Um and I also wanted to understand
2:37:52why. So, I went over to his house and I asked him, I said, "How are you still supporting Elizabeth? The only reasons that I can see are that you are in love with her and you will defend her over your own actual family, that you are greedy and you've invested too much money and or you just can't bear to see your stock options, you know, go to zero, or you're just old and you're not
2:38:20really comprehending what is happening here. And if that is the case, just please say something because we will find people to step in for you and get you out of this situation. And I said, it is, it might feel like it's too late, but it's not too late for you to get out of this. It's not too late to do the right thing. You can be the board member who says that that statement did not speak for you. You can be the board member who said that Elizabeth lied to you. She lied to investors. She lied to the other board members. She lied to doctors. She lied to patients. She lied
2:38:49to the media. And that she needs to be held accountable. it is not too late to do that. And his response was mostly that Elizabeth would be unveiling the technology at the AAC conference in a couple weeks and that it was going to blow everybody away. Um, wow.
2:39:08So, he just still believed he believed in Elizabeth. He believed that there was some magical technology inside this black box. And he he started speaking at a very very macro level. He was talking about how we were in this huge healthcare crisis in the United States and that we need to rely on innovation to increase affordability and accessibility. He was still believing these like pie in the sky, you know, like yes, there is a healthare crisis.
2:39:33Yes, we need innovation. Yes, we need to do all these things, but this is a fraud.
2:39:39Yeah. And so you do you feel like he heard how painful it was for you as his grandson?
2:39:45like was there any kind of like a recognition on his part that like I'm hurting this person I love?
2:39:51There didn't really seem to be. Maybe to some extent. Um yeah, I don't know. He he he would say, you know, kind of say things like I want to help you, but I can't make a splash.
2:40:02Like he wasn't willing to I maybe he wanted to leave the board, but he didn't want it to be a big deal.
2:40:10So, I think part of I think when I gave him all three of those options, I think they were all three were true to some extent. I think he was in love with Elizabeth. I think he was very greedy. I think um he also maybe did want to get out to some extent, but didn't really quite know how. And like I didn't know it at the time, but his his stock options were worth quite a lot. I don't remember exactly how much, but I think like in the order of hundreds of millions of dollars.
2:40:35Yeah. And that's just a blinding amount of money to somebody like especially to someone on a on a board where the a board member is supposed to be looking after the interests of the shareholders. But when you as an individual shareholder have that much, you start looking after you, not after the shareholders. It's impossible. You need to have be capable of having some form of objectivity and he could not have that.
2:40:58Yeah. You gave him every opportunity you possibly could.
2:41:02I Yeah, I absolutely did. And so after that, I just thought, you know, his life is essentially ending and mine is essentially beginning. I have to stop worrying about what happens to him and I need to do what's best for me. And what's best for me right now is clearly to go on the record with this story because I felt like again I was just being bullied. I I felt like they needed to respect me and I felt like they were holding my grandfather hostage and they were basically saying he's never going to stand up for himself because it would it would make his grandfather look so
2:41:31bad. And so I just felt like I have to stop worrying about that.
2:41:35So you go on the record and how did that feel when that article came out?
2:41:40That was the best feeling that I've maybe ever had in my entire life.
2:41:45Wait, first first did you talk to your your whole legal team about it?
2:41:51Okay. And what did they say?
2:41:52They did not like the idea at all.
2:41:56So you're like, "Guess what I'm gonna do?" And they're like, "Oh god."
2:41:59Yeah. But you went and did it anyway and then it all comes out and you're like I made the right decision.
2:42:04Yeah. So what hap a little bit more on what happened there. Of course my legal team said this is a terrible idea.
2:42:10Talked to my parents about it and they just again they begged me not to. They said you barely escaped David Boyce the first time and now you're just opening the door and inviting him into the living room. If you if you go on the record they will have no choice but to come after you and and try to sue you for defamation.
2:42:27And what I told them was, I know me and I know this feeling that I'm feeling right now and either we can work on this together and make decisions together and do this in a controlled, you know, productive way or you can convince me to not go on the record and then at some unknown point in the future, something's going to trigger me and I'm just going to let it all out.
2:42:51Like that's what's going to happen, right? I'm going to be uncontrolled.
2:42:56They convinced me to not go on the record.
2:43:00And then at some time later, just like I said, there was a trigger that just got me really mad again.
2:43:09And I just called John Keru and said, "You know that story that I told you at Y2E2 when we got lunch a few months ago?
2:43:17I want to go on the record with that story."
2:43:19Wow. And I didn't tell my parents or my lawyers until after I made the call and basically said,"Well, here's the situation we're in now.
2:43:28Find a way to move forward." And and we did. It was very tough. Again, you know, I did not make it easy to be my parents. But they were very frustrated, furious at with with me at the time, as were my lawyers. But then once the article did come out, my parents said, "We're really proud of you. great job not listening to us. You did the right thing.
2:43:50Your parents must be so proud of you. And actually, I know we're coming to the end of our our time here. I just there's a few points that I want to get across and one of them is like how impressive you are standing up to all this fear and intimidation and no one believing you.
2:44:07Like you really are a role model. I just I have to I hate when people do this, but I have to read like a little few sentences from John Kerr's book, Bad Blood. It's in the very very end.
2:44:20And this he talks about when he met you after the uh article came out and you had not talked for a long time. And he said, "For the next 45 minutes, I listened dismayed as Tyler told me about the ambush at his grandfather's house and the months of legal threats he'd endured. Despite it all, he had never buckled. He had steadfastly refused to sign any document boy Schiller had put to him. If not for his courage and the more than $400,000 his parents had spent on his attorneys, I might never have
2:44:50been able to get my first article published. I realized I felt pangs of guilt for having put him through such an ordeal. I'm getting goosebumps just reading that. I mean, honestly, thank you. I I think so many people are indebted to you for playing such a pivotal role in this whole process of exposing the lies that were Therronos.
2:45:13Yeah. I mean, and it certainly feels good to know that it was not for nothing, you know?
2:45:18It was not for nothing.
2:45:20How did you pick your pieces of your life back up? Like what? So, sort of like give us a happy ending here.
2:45:28Yeah. So, I again just tried to focus on other things. So I was very focused in the lab at Stanford and working with this incredible technology we we were working with and then we ended up spinning that out into a startup. And then I I did go to I was, you know, named one of Forb's 30 under 30 in healthcare and went to a conference that they were hosting in Boston. And one of my housemates who I was actually living with when I worked at Theronos had gone to Boston for medical and dental school.
2:45:58And so I was just staying on her couch during this conference. And we had been really good friends through college. And then we lived together after college. And we were really just like best friends for so long. But I think that distance finally pulled us out of the friend zone and we were at a concert and we kind of started dancing at the concert together. And then somehow during that week-long conference in Boston, we started dating.
2:46:21And so then I went home and uh I I turns out I was dating my best friend by the time I got home.
2:46:28And now we are married and have a kid.
2:46:32Long long story short, but what was really amazing about that was I mean I was depressed. Like there's no doubt in my mind that I was clinically depressed and I don't I just didn't realize it at the time. And when I spent that week in Boston with her, it was like she didn't know that dark depressed version of me. She only knew me from before Theronos.
2:46:51And then I kind of became that person again when I was with her. We just had so much fun together and it was just like reawakened this part of me that had kind of died and it was just this very beautiful happy ending. And and I would say like pretty much every year or even every month since I went on the record with my story with the Wall Street Journal, my life has gotten better. Just like month over month over month, it's just been getting better and better and better and better, which is just I'm so grateful for and I recognize it's not
2:47:20the typical trajectory for most whistleblowers. So I'm no just incredibly grateful for how this has played out for me.
2:47:27Well, we're so happy for you. I know you do a lot of public speaking now about this, which I think is wonderful. and you share your story and you're a great role model for especially young people.
2:47:38What would you tell a person who works at a startup about how to speak up or how to alert someone?
2:47:44Sure. So, I mean I need a lot of time for this but first of all I used I I used to also think this could never happen again like too many things had to go wrong for this to happen. It could never happen again but then you know we work collapsed and then FTX collapsed and it's just it seems like these things will keep happening again actually. I do a lot of speaking like you had mentioned and after every single speaking event that I go to, somebody comes up to me afterwards and says, "I've experienced
2:48:12something extremely similar just at a different scale and maybe in a different way or maybe just this piece or that piece." Yeah.
2:48:19But I've I have learned that there are shades of Theronos everywhere.
2:48:23Everywhere. And so I think it's really important for people to hear stories like this and to recognize what tools are available to them. One tool that I wish I had known about at the time was protected government whistleblowing channels, of which there are many. Um, the SEC has a great one. The Department of Justice just released a new one, actually.
2:48:44Uh, there's one with the IRS. There's, um, another one called the False Claims Act. And I specifically want to highlight the SEC because with their program, the whistleblower is able to recover 10 to 30% of what the SEC recovers if there's a settlement um in the in the lawsuit.
2:49:04What I think is absolutely amazing about that is that yes, it's great that whistleblowers can get paid for blowing the whistle because it most of the time does completely upend your entire life.
2:49:14And so I think it is good to kind of compensate for that. But what is almost more important is that it has created an industry where there are lawyers who will work for free on contingency. If that whistleblower does collect a reward, the lawyer gets paid some amount of money.
2:49:30And so what's amazing is that there are people like me who have not collected a reward and may never collect a reward, but have benefited from free legal counsel from these types of lawyers. And so I think that is absolutely fantastic.
2:49:43So my number one piece of advice is if you are in a situation anywhere close to this one is to go talk to a lawyer and it's very possible that you can talk to a lawyer for free which I think is often times the biggest barrier to talking to a lawyer.
2:49:56Yeah. Um, and then to founders, I also recommend being very, very conscious and intentional about how you go about building a culture because like what we saw at Theronos was Elizabeth over 10 years built this culture of fear and at your startup you need to do the exact opposite. And yeah, and another thing that Theronos did really well was they took every opportunity to reinforce that culture of fear. And at other organizations, at your organization, whoever I'm speaking to is you need to take every opportunity
2:50:25to do the opposite of that. It's like whether the discretion is a big fraud or whether it's something very small, you need to take it seriously and you need to really test the internal tools that you have like whether either from the company side or from the whistleblower side. Like a lot of companies do have internal whistleblowing tools that if you're an employee, I would recommend using and getting used to using before you see the giant fraud. Like start with the small stuff and take the small stuff
2:50:52really seriously. And I like to say flex that ethical muscle and get used to doing the right thing when you see it. And I just think that so often in our lives we see some transgression and we don't do anything about it. And I think a good place to start is to just recognize when that's happening. recognize, oh, that made me uncomfortable and I didn't do anything.
2:51:12What can I do next time? And then try to do that. And then you'll learn, you know, what types of resources are available to you. You'll learn who your support network is. And um I I also think it's a great way for companies to show that they're actually accountable to their core values. And first of all, I think a lot of startups don't even have defined core values. So that is like one piece of advice is actually and even the the ACF, the association for
2:51:41certified fraud examiners have a lot of data and one of the most interesting things is that companies that just have defined core values pay less fines just by the act of defining core values and communicating that to your employees, you end up incurring fewer fines, which I think is is just amazing. It's a relatively simple thing to do to go through an exercise of defining core values. And then when you see these, I don't know what to call them, like instances where their core values are
2:52:09challenged, you use those as moments to show your employees that you're accountable to those core values, that they're really important to you and that they should be important to your employees. And I think that's how you go about building this culture. And if you're intentional about it for 10 years, I think you can end up with a really really great culture where you're not just avoiding being a big fraud, but it's actually like a superpower because it allows you to to see problems before
2:52:34they really grow into these huge um huge issues that can truly threaten the existence of your company. It's almost like it allows you to see around corners in some ways. It allows you to hear what your employees are thinking but not actually saying.
2:52:50I think that's such an important point because I think most founders don't set out to ever be unethical. I think what it is is it's this very slow chipping away because you can always rationalize doing something that you think is going to increase shareholder value or because your board nudged you or you're one of your big investors. And so it's like what you're saying like if you just exercise this muscle a little bit all the time then that slow chipping away gets counterbalanced.
2:53:19Exactly. Yeah. And if you have those core values then it's something to hold yourself accountable to and you can see when you're starting to make decisions that don't align with those core values. And so it's at least like you're setting some kind of goalpost so you're at least cognizant of when that moral slippage starts to happen. And it gives you this, you know, a much stronger foundation on which to stand.
2:53:40Awesome. Well, it's a it's a tragic story on so many levels, but I'm so happy you're out on the other side and you have your happy ending and just again, I think I can speak for Caroline.
2:53:52We're just so impressed with you. I want my sons to hear your story and hope that they have the courage to stand up for what they believe is right. Um, even though it's very difficult. I mean it's an understatement what you did.
2:54:06Yeah. It's amazing. It's amazing and it has everything right. If there's so much Shod and Freud in this story. I mean so much drama and you know sadness but also like the just the ending like it's yeah it's amazing.
2:54:19Just to kind of conclude like I do want to point out that this like I met Elizabeth when I was 20 years old and I'm now 33. So, this was like a decade plus long saga that we just kind of went through in two podcast episodes.
2:54:38Sorry. It's hard to capture it all.
2:54:41You you would really should write a book someday.
2:54:44I hope I do. I'm actually no longer working on the startups that I've been working on, so I have a little bit of space. And I want one of the things I want to do now is is speak and just communicate more intentionally about my experience at Theronos to help either to help whistleblowers to help companies build things the right way.
2:55:01And for better or worse, I think there are lessons for boards, for investors, for media, for employees, for executives.
2:55:09Like the list just goes on and on and on. Like there's so much to learn. And so I do think one of the ways that I can go about that is by finally writing a book. Um, yeah.
2:55:18So, we'll see. I'm I'm very very busy being a new dad right now. So, but yeah, once he goes to daycare, I'll certainly have more time on my hands and maybe I'll get around to writing a book.
2:55:28Thank you so much for coming on. We absolutely loved it. I know our listeners are going to love it.
2:55:35Yes, it'll be great. It'll be exciting.
2:55:37Thank you so much for all this time. This was so cool to hear you tell the story live. Like, it's amazing. Thank you.
2:55:42Yeah, thanks for having me. I know you have an audience that I'm definitely trying to connect with. So, I hope there's a lot of founders out there or um you know, people who work at startups in in any capacity that can that can learn from this and and hopefully the next generation of startups can do better.
2:55:59Awesome. All right, that's a great place to end. Thank you so much.