0:00enjoying a wonderful Milkin event, the first Toronto Global Dialogues here spearheaded by the wonderful Milkin Institute and I'm sure you've heard about the the headlines about AI this weekend. So this is a great time to have this conversation and I have to say from Toronto, a girl that grew up in Toronto, I am so so enthused and it's just so wonderful to see the vibrancy and the
0:28capitalism and the I would say enthusiasm to build out Canada and this wonderful wonderful city. So this panel I don't really need to introduce these individuals because I think everybody in the country really around the world know who these individuals are. Of course the the brainchild of Coher the man that built the architecture for Google brain which turned into virtually every other LLM on the planet. We have Aiden Gomez
0:55of Coher, the CEO of the largest company in Canada, RBC, a former programmer himself, Dave Mai, and I believe they're still trying to clean up your code from those days. Also at the end, the Minister of AI, a man who was really wonderful to me at the CBC when we worked together, Minister Evan Solomon.
1:17So, I think we have to start off with this conversation talking about what's happening in the world of AI. You've seen the stock markets today. We're looking at a sell-off because people are concerned about maybe a slowdown taking place when it comes to artificial intelligence. So, I'll start with Aiden.
1:32Of course, you heard Daario Amade says calling for a slowdown. Need safety guardrails. But then you heard China saying we're not so sure. Trump says, "Well, if China's not going to slow down, we're not going to slow down." Are you concerned?
1:47Uh, well, I'm definitely concerned. the the article from uh Daario basically called for uh a temporary and uh focused on his company and a couple others alleviation of antitrust laws. Uh the laws that were set up to prevent the formation of cartels. So that should raise a huge red flag in terms of what some of the incentives behind this might be. Of course, I do think that the technology is incredibly potent, very
2:16powerful. It's unequivocally the most powerful cyber weapon that has been created and we've seen this in examples like the hugging face hacking incident.
2:26So I don't want to downplay the risks but the idea that we would need to weaken antitrust law uh to to try and solve that I think that's really a mistake. What we need is a process by which to come up with the right regulation. uh and that should include things like testing of these models in advance, an independent third party that isn't isolated to any one country and isn't dominated by any one industry player. Uh so I'm I'm concerned both on
2:55the level of the technology is powerful, we need oversight and we need to get ahead of any potential risks, but also these big players trying to entrench their power and use regulation as a moat to keep competitors from rising up. So basic you called it a cartel this morning.
3:11Yeah. Yeah. I mean like essentially that's regulatory.
3:13That was what that regulation like the antitrust law that is in place is to prevent cartels forming and they're asking please give us a temporary alleviation so that we can coordinate amongst ourselves to keep you all safe.
3:24I think that's a really really dangerous proposition.
3:27Dave, since you are building out in artificial intelligence, investing more and more, announcing a $ 1.4 4 billion fund. Given that you believe innovation is in front of us, do you feel that we have enough guard rails in place to keep this technology safe?
3:42No, I don't think we have enough guard rails. In fact, you know, in real time, we're spending, you know, as much effort building out new capabilities and the product development cycles are accelerating rapidly. At the same time, we're scanning our software for vulnerabilities. were using the most advanced tools and these these most advanced tools whether it's mythos and others are being selectively released outside of the United States. So there is you know a sovereign issue around accessing the most powerful talent to make sure you're not cyber hacked or
4:12powerful capabilities. So, you know, as Aiden says, as we look at what is safe AI over time, it's it's it's uniform access to the most powerful tools to make sure you're you can defend your organization at the same time, you can leverage the tools going forward. So, we see differentiated access. US firms get, you know, selective access to the most powerful tools, whether it's miso, methos 51 now. Um, and therefore that level playing field can create cyber risk. So I think the world is catching
4:41up and you know it needs to think about you know sovereign frontier capabilities and and a safe EI uh AI ecosystem. So do you you're saying it's an unfair playing advantage then for the US side currently yes absolutely there's selective access to the most powerful tools the tools that create the incidents like you mentioned and hugging post and others and therefore you know we we combine tools and we you know every company around the world is trying to make sure their software estate is as
5:11secure as possible and therefore you know you need access to the most advanced tools to not only build product but also make sure you're cyber safe as a society and as an economy. So, it's both.
5:25Yeah. Well, Minister, I mean, what what exactly is Canada's as I guess position when it comes to AI safety?
5:32So, safety is the number one concern full stop. Like, uh, you got to keep whether you're a bank, keeping your customers safe for us, our citizens. And you know when we launched our AI strategy uh AI for all it was trust, opportunity, sovereign control. Those are the three pillars. First one's trust. Trust is safety. Can't trust this stuff. you run into a social license whether you're building AI infrastructure and and digital infrastructure like data centers
6:02which is why we launched our data center build framework with five key pillars to protect people which we launched this summer with the min the um federation of Canadian municipalities because you need communities to lead and then we got now over 40 companies signed on so you got to protect whether you're building data centers you got to lead with safety And this is frontier model. Look, AI, there's lots of different types of AI.
6:29AI in healthcare, there's going to be safety. AI in transport, there's going to be safety. But on the frontier models, there's real concerns.
6:37We all share the same concern. In the AI world, this is not a new concern. When Dario came out and said that recursive self-improvement is concerning in terms of the hugging face incident, this was not a new issue that anybody in a Canada on the side of the US or are you on the side? Well, we're on the side of safety.
6:57Anthropic asking for a slowdown.
6:59No, hold on. We're on the side of of keeping people safe. Like that's the side.
7:03And but what is the position?
7:04Okay. Well, first you got to have legislation. So, we passed legislation to keep our privacy, our kids, and our data safe. We've got that legislation.
7:13Two, we're setting up a regulator because if you really want to regulate, you need someone to regulate. So, this is the first time we're going to have a regulator with real power. So, that's also tabled. And when it comes to frontier legislation, we've invested in our AI safety institute, another 50 million. On Wednesday, we will have a major announcement on AI safety on the technical side with Yosua Benjio who is the leading scientist with the Germans at our AI largest AI conference in
7:42Montreal. We have a major major announcement on one aspect on and finally there's how do you regulate this? I was on the phone with Sam Alman on Sunday to hear from them. The job of the people building is not going to be to regulate. They're going to suggest we are going to work with our counterparts. I was on the phone with the Brits. I just got off the phone with the French.
8:03We will be having a big meeting on Friday and you s heard the prime minister today talk about a technology stability board which is like in finance where banks will know you know in the world of finance there are regulators that are in place inside financial institutions to make sure there's compliance. So look, this is evolving very quickly, but first and foremost, know that we got to protect our own sovereign environments, and we are.
8:31Dave's made a really interesting point. The models are evolving.
8:36And they're spending a huge amount of money on patching. And this is why I will say Aiden's on on stage. This is not an accident. We happen to be one of four countries that have frontier mod like large language models. The US has a bunch, China's got a bunch, France's got one and Canada has one and it's and it is coherent. We declared it when we did anou with them a strategic asset for us.
9:02We contracted with them. RBC has contracted with them and the question is and we have said we are going to champion our champions. We are going to invest for Aiden and cohhere then. Well, no, but it's important that that they that we have a Canadian model at the frontier and we're going to make sure that happens.
9:18Okay. Well, so Aiden, you heard Daario this weekend and he says in his warning is that AI could take over the internet in 6 to 12 months. And you did you see that? You're looking at me like Yeah. Yeah. No, but I I just think it's a really bizarre. Uh why why do you think it's [clears throat] bizarre? I think it's bizarre because it's a uh he's also made the claim that there's going to be like 90% of software engineers without a job within 12 months and he made that claim two years ago a year ago almost a year ago on our
9:48network. That's right. He said that 50% of white collar jobs in 12 months.
9:53Yeah. So, so I I don't think you can take that seriously. Um but certainly there are risks around this technology like I was saying the cyber threat is a real one. Contribution to bioweapons is another one. uh and these need to be mitigated and there is a a decision point that we're at in terms of how do we regulate these. I just hope it doesn't come from a very tiny collection of companies. You could make the argument the proposal that Daria put forward and that Sam second and Elon
10:19third um benefits cohhere because for any entrenched player you're inherently in an advantage position now. You can set up the rules and basically set the bar for competitors who might want to try and come in. But it's it's unethical and it's the wrong way about uh going about actually making the future safer for everyone.
10:38Uh so I think it's it's an important topic and I'm glad that we're debating it in public. I just hope it doesn't go down that path.
10:46Okay. But then you heard other anthropic former engineers says that and that went viral across X. I'm sure everyone has seen it that there's a 10% chance it could wipe out humanity. So your thoughts? I mean that that is not a mathematical conclusion there.
11:04Well, there's a number and what do you There is a number. You're right. But okay. Uh you know greater than zero.
11:11Yeah. Yeah. Any anyone can throw out uh a number but there there's nothing behind it. Um uh yeah I I think that incident is really interesting. I suggest folks look into it. He worked at Anthropic for six weeks. Uh and he his Twitter account was created a week before the day before a day before the announcement. Uh and he had exclusives with the press lined up.
11:33Fascinating fascinating event.
11:35Oh yes. Dave, you you were shaking your head at some of the comments. You do you do you have concerns that AI might wipe out humanity? 10% probabilities.
11:48AI can be used for good and it can be used for bad. I don't know how deep it can go before we catch it and stop someone who had a malicious intent to that degree. So I think Aiden would have a much greater knowledge whether that's real and we couldn't detect that. What I see on the capability side is we are developing new products and our our development cycles are now a fraction of what they used to be. Things that took us two years to build are taking us two months, three months. I mean it's not
12:16just coding. We went from coding and getting a 20 to 30% efficiency in generating new code which it's true I my nickname was infinite loop and I used to produce [laughter] a software code now can't go back to that but it's not just coding we got the coding efficiency it's the entire product design life cycle is being compressed significantly and we just sat down and improved a completely new product from scratch last week and I was expecting to hear it was going to take two years before we're in market in
12:4620 end of 272 28 we're in market in early 27 with a complete new build with everything done that's just unheard of and that cycle is going to continue to compress so when you think about bringing society with us where I worry more that will will we change more jobs than we create if you start every industry from sciences pharmaceuticals industrial engineering finance if you start creating new products and new cycles that fast and you launch these you're going to need to pivot people
13:14from here to here to manage those the job creation cycle can accelerate.
13:21So you've got both sides of this trying to manage the the the human effort through this and making sure that society comes with us on this journey because if society opts out you see in the United States you know communities are opting out of the infrastructure around AI and the power consumption the water usage around these large factories well we don't want society to opt out of all the benefits we can get in life cycle design so how we bring everyone together to me is where a lot of the risk lies
13:49job securityities obviously a big risk that we highlight day in day out is probably the most talked about topic when it comes to AI. So from the RBC perspective, you know, they say that 50% of white collar jobs could be erased in a year or two. What are your thoughts?
14:05Definitely not in a year or two. They're going to be changed and you're going to adapt these tools to be a lot more productive in your role. So as we look at deploying this in every aspect of a business, we're thinking about the tasks we can do with a gentic workforce. We're thinking about value chains that we can decompose and recombine around the value chain. So there's different orders. We have kind of three pillars that we're going after this. At the end of the day, we think we can make our teams much more productive. We can create new products.
14:34Yep. The workforce is going to have to be super flexible about moving from here to here to here and leveraging these tools into your role. But when we do that, we're going to have a much more efficient society with more options and we're going to move a lot faster. It's a it's I call a huge period of of pivoting and reimagination, but m I don't think it's a destruction.
14:57So, it's a I guess maybe we're reimagining our economy. We're going to grow our economy. We're going to produce new drugs. We're going to teach people differently. We're going to move differently in society. It's but it's a big reposition where you need more infrastructure to build along different lines. It's a massive pivot.
15:12And with these pivots that we've seen in history, they can be disruptive. And if you don't do them well, they lead the conflict. But if you do them well, and maybe slowing down some of this is important to make, okay, we're getting out to a front faster. We got to bring an element of our society with us. Let's create a safety net to do that so we can pivot. Each country is going to have to judge at what pace is this going and and are we bringing a large part of our constituency with us or not?
15:39New iteration. So from the government side, are there going to be social guard rails when there's disruption to the workforce? Evan, yeah, let me let me just say on the workforce and on the safety. No, no, it's good.
15:53The framework is how do we prepare for this change, right? I mean, government's job is not to figure out what predictive models, right? Oh, you know, we got to be here and set up a society that no matter what the change is, uh, we can take advantage of the benefits. We take these safety concerns seriously. Some people say, do you believe it's 10?
16:16These are real concerns.
16:18But so for us and this whole day today at this summit or this is about not to build or not to build and we should you know should we stop building AI because of the danger or not. It's not to build or not to build it's build right or build wrong. That's it. If you build wrong you can't get the social license for a data center. If you build wrong you might get dangers right and the risks go up. We s seen this in every tech phase. You build automobiles wrong,
16:48people get hurt on the roads and then you have unsafe at any speed and Ralph Nater and then suddenly you say, "Yeah, you got to put seat belts and airbags and cars get safer and people want to buy them. You don't stop building, you build them safer." And we are at that moment in AI. We are at that moment in technology where you got to either build right or build wrong. We have seen the build wrong. We have now been warned that building wrong has risks. So the question is how do we build right? So how do you do it? One, we talked about the data center. You got to build right
17:17community benefits, water, environment, transparency, um, making sure that rateayers don't get dinged on someone else's innovation. That's that's really important on jobs. How do you prepare a workforce? So last week in Edmonton at Amy at our national AI institute, we launched Canada's first national AI literacy strategy, a free AI literacy course to every student in the country,
17:45every educator. And later in this fall, every single Canadian will have access to a free AI literacy course. You need the best educated workforce. You need people to have literacy. We will also have 90,000 jobs for young people to be in small companies that we're paying for those job placements.
18:04That only that not only helps adoption, but it creates jobs. Three, we are going to announce later this fall as we said we will an AI agent for every postsecary student in the country four or five years free protecting their data protect. So they have the tools to be the most educated workforce. Okay.
18:25education, literacy, investing in students, investing in teachers, investing in Canadian sovereign technology. That's working with partners. So like you got to build right now. Now what's the future of jobs?
18:39You're going to have 10 experts tell you 10 different things. Okay? You want to take the fear and someone says, "Well, that didn't turn out, so dismiss it." We don't know. Every technology has had a disruptive cycle and there's been new you can't predict what the next new jobs are.
18:58ignore the fact that AI is one of the most unpopular topics for individuals uh for citizens less than 35% of the population in the US at least are enthusiastic we have a huge compared to 85% in China by the way we have a big social license problem because people are concerned about their privacy their job their future and the security and their sovereignty so that's why we are investing in safety security literacy education skills and
19:26sovereignty like that is the moment. But if we don't do it, and that's why places like this matter. That's why when people say, "Oh, Dave's using at RBC a Canadian company like Coher that that is safe, keeping our money safe, being transparent about it. The first hedge though is education. I I really think literacy and education. Anyone in this room, what do you tell your kids when they say, and I have two kids in their 20s, dad, what's the future going to
19:54be?" Like I have the same question. is what's AI what do you do with your kids get a good education because higher education always correlates to better outcomes so the first thing we do in a time of change is we make sure we have the most skilled educated technically proficient economy in the world and we're going to do that well that we were talking about that because Aiden and I went to the University of Toronto although I did not of course uh turn out like Aiden did I did not build any transformative
20:22architecture for at Google brain but I also O think and as I've told Melanie Wooden who's the president in the University of Toronto, we need to do a better job of talking up Canada because this is the birthplace of generative AI. Aiden team, Jeff Hinton, we don't do a good enough job of that making the world know the talent, the expertise, and ju just the AI innovation that's taking place in this city.
20:49Yeah. I mean, we we invented it.
20:51AI talk more about it.
20:53Yeah. I I don't know why it's not as well understood. Like I I people aren't aware that uh you know two years ago the the Nobel [clears throat] Prize was given to Jeffrey Hinton and Yosua Benjio, two Canadians who developed everything that we're benefiting from in AI today. I I don't think people know that, you know, of course Coher is founded by by a Canadian, but also anthropic and OpenAI are founded by Canadians. My first day
21:21at Google, I was telling this story uh this morning. Um my first day at Google, I showed up in Mountain View in Silicon Valley. I had just done my orientation, picked up my laptop, got my badge, you know, I'm uh 20 at that point, just out of second year undergrad, and I walk into building 1965, which is where Google Brain was. And Google Brain was like the Bell Labs of AI. It was the most funded, like the best funded, the pinnacle of AI research. I walk in and I
21:50walk past the kitchen and I hear Frencha French and it's Sammy Sammy Benjio Yosua Benjio's brother talking to Guiam about you know some research project that they're working on and it just hit me.
22:01It was like oh all of this was built by Canadians. This is our technology. We invented this. Our taxpayers invested in it. Our taxpayers bet on deep learning before when when no one else believed in it and we created it. We deserve to see part of the upside of this technology. We deserve to have our finger on the trigger of this technology. I really think uh Canadians should be proud of what we've contributed and we should retain
22:30[applause] and we should fight to ensure that we retain control over how that technology gets deployed and developed uh on the world stage.
22:42Well, then I have to ask obviously the elephant in the room for your company.
22:46Are you announcing a three billion dollar funding round?
22:49Not today. [laughter] Not today. On this panel right now.
22:53On this panel? No. No, we're not.
22:5520 billion dollar valuation.
22:57No comment. Uh but yeah, we're we're going to continue to to capitalize ourselves to compete on the global stage. It's an extremely capital intensive field. Uh and Coher will continue to grow and invest.
23:11Yes. Go ahead, Dave.
23:13It's not just an AI story to your point. Right. We're creating all of this great IP. We've got a lot of seed capital coming from Canadian government and others. We found these companies. We get them to product market fit and then a US or foreign GP comes in and leads the next cap table in the growth phase. 70% of our growth capital comes from US GPS.
23:37And then the pressure starts as you know, well, we're leading your cap table. We'd like you to move to Silicon Valley. we'd like you to uh you know relocate here. The pressure and if you don't then the pressure to sell to a US firm increases and therefore we're losing the scaling benefit to your point. Why we're not scaling which is why we launched the RBCX growth fund last week is to become a Canadian GP to lead that cap table and bring the LPs
24:05in. So what I'm doing this week is I'm talking to all the LPs from around the world trying to invest into our fund so I can lead those cap tables and keep those top Canadian firms and tech and biotech and quantum keep them here and create the ecosystem that we've seen with Coher and Shopify and others that ecosystem so important that it it nurtures and grows and can and spins off other companies like it did with Openext and others. So that's that's the genesis
24:34behind our billion for commitment to do the things so that the next cohhere scales in Canada.
24:40Yeah. So but Evan I was um you know a lot of people a lot of VC funds that I've been speaking to say that they can't invest in Canada. First of all there isn't that much of a scale. I think one some of the largest companies is $300 billion with Shopify and of course RBC. But they say that all this red tape and bureaucracy makes Canada almost uninvestable in their view.
25:00That's not me saying it. I'm just telling you what big money venture capital is saying.
25:04Uh okay. So, first let me just say the RBC fund is fantastic. Um you're going to see Radical who were first in on Coher. They're about to announce this week uh the largest VC fund in Canadian history. This is what this entire investment summit's about. Look, there's five things we need to do better in Canada. And this is what this is the mission moment. There's a geopolitical realignment. We get it.
25:31In the meantime, we got to build. What are the five things we need? And this is the heart of our plan. And this is what we've talked about with all. We need the two T's. Trust and talent. So, we talked about trust. That was the first part, the safety. We need the talent. We invested $1.7 billion.
25:46The largest talent attraction strategy in the G20. We have invested. That's why you saw 65 scientists come, 48 from the United States last week. Way more to come. Thousand top researchers and their labs coming. That's why folks like Aiden come. So you need talent, you need trust, then you need access to capital, the funds and regulation is what we Yeah. Okay. Well, hang in there. But we got C we I got a billion and a half in our fund. like we we've got to build capital data centers because you know pro
26:15logistics 100 billion says that very few people want to build data centers here in Canada bec because again there it's very hard to get the approvals and the permits in this country and you're looking at a multi-year plan why can't it be faster from the regulatory Susan and I know each other well so this is why we keep talking like this is good [laughter] I just want to say like I'm just going to say you're going to see later today a major announcement on a data center from a Canadian company that will be in the
26:44tens of billions of dollars today. like let's just like I just want to make sure we're not repeating things that are old views of who we are and like okay we are different we we got to like you know people say people aren't investing they are investing the data center social license in the United States is a picture we haven't had that yet we need to make sure that we are aware of it but
27:13we got to have the capital the compute and the customers The government has to be a better customer. Our procurement's too slow. We get it. We just brought Patrick Bishette in, former vice president of Google, can Canadian to help us fix our procurement. You just saw the finance minister on another panel here talk about helping derisk investment here in this crowd. Our marginal effective tax rate in Canada 13% after one big beautiful bill in the United States 16%. Why don't we talk
27:42about that? So like let's just make sure that we are talking about CA Canada now and the opportunities today. And you're right and Aiden made the point. We have to first become our best customer. That's why Dave's making this investment. That's why we're all here because we got the talent, the resources, and we got to make it faster. One review. That's what our major projects office is all about to build that infrastructure. But let's be clear.
28:14Let's tell the story of who we are, not who someone thinks we were.
28:19Well, Dave, let me ask you about that because the uh the numbers that we had over the weekend was Canada's 2% of global GDP, but they drive in 5% FDI, foreign direct investments, the world's foreign direct investment. So, how is business and how are big investors thinking about Canada right now in capital allocation?
28:40you know, foreign investors are underindexed to Canada. They've been underindexed for, you know, over a decade because we weren't getting enough investable projects to market quick enough. But that those are the old tapes. Investors now believe that there's been a pivot and a and a change in philosophy. They've seen the tax changes. They've seen the major projects office. They've seen the ideas come to market. They see CEOs talking about it.
29:04Therefore, there is this pivot to we can do, we have to do, we have to diversify our economy. They see the challenges we have with our current trade partner.
29:12They see Canada is in a position where we got to get stuff done. So they're here. They're here on mass. $120 trillion dollars of investment in the city over the next two days kicking the tires on everything from energy to rare earth minerals to uh infrastructure in in the north to data centers. Lots of interest in data centers. I met with an investor from Asia this morning who's very interested in the data center capacity because York and Pennsylvania and others aren't going to get them built and therefore they they need the
29:41capacity. We have clean electricity. We have water. We have a fiber optic network that can get those those bits and bites across the border in a safe and efficient manner. So I think you know to Evans really important point.
29:54We're talking about the current narrative. I said that on CNBC this morning. It's about who we can be and who we're moving towards with a sense of urgency. And the world sees that and they're here to pressure test that. It's a really important two days that we show well, that we show pace. Investors need confidence. We're going to get stuff done because time value of money is really important. They don't have time to waste. There's other opportunities to move on. We got to get stuff done. We got to get it done fast. And we have to
30:22create a competitive return on investment against others who want that capital. And that's what we're here to sell in the next two days. We can get this stuff done. And we're mobilizing. Business and government are working together for the first time in a decade. And we're spent a lot of time together talking about what does Canada need to be successful? What's your role? What's my role? Okay, let's get it done.
30:45Yeah. Well, did you watch uh Aiden's interview at Davos this year? Because I did. I think one of your messages at the I think it was the Axios interview was that you your one wish your one wish for this year was that you hope that the US and Canada become best friends again.
31:02I think that divide is still [laughter] I don't think I don't know if it's winding at this point but is that a concern for the AI industry?
31:11Uh well it's a concern for Canada. I I would say like the the partnership between the US and Canada. We have been like I I grew up here. My parents are immigrants from like the UK and Spain, but I was raised a Canadian and a little forest. We would tap the trees. We had a sugar shack. Like it's a very Canadian upbringing. And and what you're taught are like America is our our brother, you know, like our our sibling, our our cousin. It's uh our closest partner, our
31:40best friend. Um, and that relationship has been so strong through so many tests and trials and decades. Um, I I think it's a it's a tragedy to see the damage being done for nothing. It was such a incredibly productive relationship. We have so many natural resources up here. We have a small population. They need those resources. We can help them out.
32:05we can you know and then we end up buying back products at a higher margin uh back north of so like it was a great relationship we had such a good thing and all we ask is like you know let us be sovereign uh let's collaborate on defense let's be good friends and and share um I think we have to get back to that but your your deal with the left alpha in Germany is that kind of the same I guess pivot to this cohesion of middle powers in Europe instead you saw the
32:34article this again about whether or not Canada wants to be an associate member of the EU. We know that the prime minister has categorically denied that this morning. But if you're not find finding friendly friendliness south of the border, you go across the Atlantic to Europe instead.
32:51Well, I think more broadly, the world is going to diversify in terms of who it buys technology from. And so, they need a robust supply chain. They can't buy everything from one place anymore. That we've crossed the Rubicon. that is happening. The question is who do we diversify onto? At the moment, we're kind of sleepwalking into a reality where there's only one option. It's the US builds AI and China builds AI and that's your choice. I firmly believe the second rail has to come from a democracy.
33:20At the moment, we have coherent Canada and we have Mistral in France. Those are our two shots for the future to ensure there's a democratic second rail. We have to ensure that one of us I hope coir [laughter] is the one to provide that rail. Uh and so that's what we're what we're working towards.
33:38Yeah. So Dave, I have to ask you that question just in terms of what you're hearing from business leaders here and major investors. You know, what do you think about this uh this tariff battle and this trade battle with the US? Will we get a deal fairly soon from what you're hearing?
33:54Yeah, I think communication lines are open. I wouldn't necessarily romanticize the relationship Um, I would say this relationship has to be based on self-interest, mutual self-interest, economic self-interest and reliance, energy self, energy reliance and energy security, food security, defense security. And I think that's why we have such a strong relationship uh with the United States. It's good for both countries. And I think we've spent a lot of calories debating that relationship over the last year and a
34:23bit. I think we'll get back to recognizing that yeah, we can change it.
34:26We can move it in a couple different directions, but we're better off spending all these calories solving some of the other other issues like energy, security, defense, uh, AI, and others together. And I think this relationship's been strong for a century and more because it's good for both sides. And I think that brings us back to the table and it gets a deal done.
34:47Yeah. So Evan, I have to ask them between the US and Canada. I know you talk a lot about sovereign AI here in this country, but uh when you're a tenth the size of your bigger neighbor, how do you protect that sovereignty?
35:01Well, first of all, we're going to go back to the table when in good faith and we're pragmatic. When the US wants to negotiate in good faith, we're going to go back to the table. We want that. They're our important customer, their neighbors, their family.
35:16Uh there's lots of topline stress, but we're not going to get a bad deal. We're not going to do a deal that's bad for this country. And prime minister is gonna we are masters of our own country, our own domain here. This is we are our job is to protect Canadian sovereignty, Canadian jobs. And when there's a good deal, and I think Dave said it, that's mutually beneficial, we're going to do it. We're practical. So, you know, we're going to get there and it's going to happen and because the logic of it makes sense. So, that's the first. But in the
35:44meantime, plan A is to do what we're always going to do. We're going to build. We're going to diversify. We've look, Canada has more free trade agreements than any country in the G7.
35:54We've got access to 1.5 billion consumers around the world and we are going to double that this year. Okay?
36:00So, we have to expand our customers. The unique relationship we've got with the EU really important. You'll see that later this week with the prime minister.
36:10investment summit like this foreign direct investment highest it's been in 20 years so like we need to build we got to do it more efficiently let me just say one last thing I know someone there said that's talent trust customers capital and um what did I say customers uh capital and I can't even remember now that you I'll come back to you in a second I say capital somebody comput but I would just say one thing on this build it's true true we're going to make this
36:39right for um business investment but build right means workers okay like this is not a choice between you know getting indigenous consultation right to build major projects to leave workers behind we the best way you know what they say make haste slowly like you got to get buy in from the you want to build digital infrastructure make sure that the community trusts you want to rush in
37:09and do it wrong, it's in the long run, it's not going to happen. So the the the Carney value, the Canadian pivot is that you can build right and build quick.
37:20Okay. So our final minutes and because they are who they are, such influential voices, can you leave us with your final thoughts then Aiden, Dave, Evan, just in terms of what you want the world to know about Canadian and the AI industry here?
37:38Yeah, I I think we have all the ingredients we need to build a global champion. Yes, we're onetenth the size of the United States, but they have more than 10 players and so we can absolutely support a global champion. Um, we have all the talent that we need. We have a market that's opening up now and is betting Canadian much more. The capital is starting to flow in. Uh, and we're going to we're going to see much more of that this week. And so, I think we have all the fundamental ingredients to lead in this technology. It's a core part of our history and it needs to be a core
38:08Dave, I would say I would reinforce everything Aiden just said, but we have been slow to capitalize on the deployment of AI and we are in a position now to pivot. I think we've got all these great fundamental technologies, frontier models, infrastructure. We got to integrate this into our businesses and we have to reimagine value chains and move to the forefront. I think that's critical for our prosperity. That's what we're starting to do in our own shop.
38:35Evan, uh this is the moment. We all sense it.
38:38We are in a critical moment [snorts] for the country, for the world, and Canada's place in the AI moment. Uh we have the best talent here. We have the best innovators here. Uh we are now bringing the capital and the customers here and the compute to innovate here. We've got the natural resources to do it. And it's our moment. We need to capitalize. And Dave said it's a show me moment, but Canadians are re recognizing what we've
39:07got and this week you're seeing the world recognize it. We need to move quick. We need to build right and together we can do that.
39:17Well, thank It was a privilege for me to moderate this session and I hope you enjoy the rest of your Milkin Institute Toronto dialogues and thank you Aiden, Dave, Evan for sharing your thoughts and your time