0:00There's three categories of performance in sales. One, you are God. Two, I don't know yet. Or three, you'reing fired. Today, we're joined by one of the fastest growing companies in the world's SVP of sales, Max Freeman, to understand how to think about onboarding, how to think about acquiring the best talent.
0:17By the way, he thinks bankers make the best sales leaders. How to think about retention, how to think about incentivizing sales reps with new products. All of this and so much more in what is one of the most granular and detailed shows on how to build a sales machine.
0:34We'll pay 2x what a standard SDR is going to make. But guess what? You got to book 40, 50, 60 meetings, which is [music] four to six times what a standard SDR has to book. There are some sellers at RAM that are on 15 plus calls in a given day. You have to treat go to market recruiting like Billy Bean. Sales is very much an engineering problem when you break it down. It's a data infrastructure problem. It's a math problem. Ready to go. [music]
1:08Max, I am so excited for this dude. I think when people think of the fastest growing companies, they do immediately think of RAMP. And so, uh, Eric told me that the entire revenue accumulation was down to you. And so, no pressure, but the next hour is gonna be a lot of treasure trove of wisdom. Okay, I love it. I'm fired up. And I think I'm getting too much credit for that.
1:32There's amazing individuals on the go to market team at RAMP. And I feel very lucky.
1:38Well, it's great cuz I was totally BSing. He said you're a total douche. But, uh, moving swiftly to the show. Uh, a sales team is nothing without the people in it. And when we were chatting before this, I we don't do prep calls.
1:51No, Harry's far too old and arrogant for a prep call, but you you made me do a prep call and I'm so glad you did cuz you said that you like hiring bankers and turning them into sellers.
2:04Why? So not only bankers but I think there's a lot of mispric assets on the market where their resume will not suggest the true alpha. Um but let's let's start with bankers. So in building the early gotom market team at ramp we brought on quite a few investment bankers and now they're running pretty large pieces of the business. Here here's why um I have an
2:34affinity towards doing this. One, bankers are are programmed to work. The concept of a nineto-5 is is completely foreign to these folks. Two, they have [snorts] they have intelligence and they have business acumen and a lot of horsepower that is not always found when hiring for sales talent. And I think the third for our business, you know, we're selling into the office
3:01of the CFO. And so in the earlier stages when we didn't have brand recognition, no one knew who we were as a company, being able to call a CFO cold, tell them, hey, I just quit my job at Goldman Tmtip to join this credit card business.
3:17That packed a very compelling punch for us. And so I think those were the tangible benefits. Maybe the last additive component that I think is important is I didn't have time in early sales teams don't have time to teach folks this is how you use lean language in a cold call. This is how you use appropriate grammar in a cold email. We had to be executing and so bringing on folks like that helped derisk a lot of that. So we were just in pure execution mode. And now today, you know, Mike
3:46Weber, we pulled him from city. He runs a massive piece of the business. Sam Buck runs a massive piece of the business. because he came from Goldman.
3:53I spoke to Sam before this show uh who was fantastic with suggestions. Uh my question to you is I I can literally feel the pain of founders listening going really how on earth do you afford these investment bankers?
4:08How do you afford these investment bankers?
4:11Yeah. So the the bet we took early on was to actually pay way above market rate for this talent. But in return, we were going to expect way above market rate when it comes to output. And so we'll make the unit economics work. We'll pay 2x what a standard SDR is going to make. But guess what? You got to book 40, 50, 60 meetings, which is four to six times what a standard SDR has to book.
4:37You book 40 to 50 meetings. What is the expectation on meeting bookings? Really, it depends by segment. Um, obviously the the further up market you go, um, the numbers are are lower and we're looking for quality, but down market we still have SDRs that are booking well above 50 meetings in a given month.
4:56That's not very much, dude.
4:5850 meetings in a given month for an SDR.
5:01You have to book a meeting with intent. There has to be qualification rigor. There's a lot that goes into it that takes precision. I I think you're understating this.
5:15But when I No, because when we were chatting before, I said like DGEN Chris Denon is like, "Oh, you can't do more than seven." And you were like, "Oh, people do way more than that. They do like 10 in a day."
5:25Those are those are account executives that are taking seven actual meetings like the closers.
5:32Ah, not the top of funnel that's like booking the meetings for the sellers to then take. Do you not expect even like the low ACVs to be doing way more than 12?
5:43These are small businesses like startups. Like I'm talking about SDRs specifically on the AE side. Yes, of course. They're taking more than 12 meetings in a given week especially down market with the low ACVs.
5:56Our inside [clears throat] sales reps, our commercial reps, they're taking 10 to 12 calls in a given day.
6:02That's what I'm talking about. Yes.
6:03Okay. Sorry. So that that that was the disconnect. So there are people doing 10 times 12 calls a day.
6:08Absolutely. There are some sellers at RAMP that are on 15 plus calls in a given day.
6:13Okay. That's what I'm talking about.
6:15Right. And and sorry they are a AES or STRS account executives. AES.
6:20They're doing like 8 to 10 a day. Got you. Great. There is another component though to teams which is we can't just have IB. They got to come from some tech company. They're tech companies where it's good to hire from versus bad to hire from. And I'm not asking for explicit names, but like profiles for me as a founder to think through.
6:39Yes, I love this. I obsess over this topic. So I am a huge fan of Moneyball and you have to treat go to market recruiting like Billy Bean. And so there is so much alpha in finding what companies have grown revenue in a significant way. I'm talking north of nine figures, but have done that despite
7:05having a low NPS score. Now, [snorts] why why is there so much alpha in this? A few things. You have to create a lot of your own demand. If you're the fifth or sixth best player in your market, the inbound funnel, that's not very fruitful. So, you got to go you got to go make it happen. Two, you have to navigate a lot of complexity in your cycles.
7:29one, there's probably a lot of weak reviews on third party publications, whether that's G2, Capterara. So, you got to be dialed in to advance opportunities.
7:41And three, you're usually priced at a premium compared to other players in the market that are priced significantly below you. So, if you can be the number one or two seller there, you come into a system like Rant, that is where the magic is going to happen. If you were to name a company, [laughter] I can't give away the secret sauce. I'll I'll name one. I'll name one. Six cents.
8:06Former low MPS products. Maybe not great.
8:11But close good customers.
8:14Exactly. In fact, just yesterday, one of our uh top enterprise sellers sent me a email from a customer that said this huge review that they sent internally. they want to offer a case study and we didn't even prompt them at all. And Alex had said, "I've never seen this in my 15 years of sales." I was like, "Oh, we get that 10 to 20 times a month at RAMP. You've just been selling [ __ ] products."
8:38When you're trying to determine greatness in a candidate in terms of where they've come from before. How do you unpick whether it was truly them or whether they were just an order taker?
8:50You you you can have two different situations. One, they're just an order taker, which isn't very difficult. or two, they're at Twilio and they sign up Uber and they sign Uber when it starts and then it expands into what it becomes and they get the credit for that. How do you determine true quality versus happens dance or order taking?
9:08Yeah, you have to decompose their number, right? And so, okay, you did you did 2 million that's that's great. How much of it was inbound? How much of it was outbound? How much of it was expansion? How much of it was sourced by your founder? how much of it was from existing opportunities that you inherited and then you you really have to drill down such that you can spot and figure [clears throat] out if someone is bullshitting you. And then to get even more deep into testing their acumen
9:38around sales, it's talk to me about two deals. You have to make them reconstruct them chronologically. The best candidates give so much texture and like you're really trying to figure out well how did you advance this? Well, what was it? Were you articulating business value? Was it some workflow that you tied to a business outcome? Um, they they'll know that. And if they can't describe that, not a good sign. The inverse is also true. You want to understand, talk to me about a deal that keeps you up at night, why did you lose
10:09If they can't unpack why they've lost an opportunity, was it they were singlethreaded? They didn't build a champion? There was no business value?
10:18the product wasn't good enough, they didn't qualify well enough. Like figuring that out and testing for it is actually incredibly important in an interview process. What if I said to you, "Hey, yeah, I get you. Um, one of the decision makers is friends with a competitor and that's why like I I kind of hate it, but I also get it."
10:39Like blame deflection can also be genuine. How do you determine like good versus bad on on that sort of Totally. You should be able to sus that out early enough in the the cycle and you should confront it head on. Hey Harry, I know you're evaluating us and another competitor. I see you have a shared board member with that competitor. Is that going to get in the way of this decision? Like how are you actually evaluating it? Is it on its merits or is it not? A seller should be
11:08able to articulate and communicate that to me. They shouldn't find out about that at the final second after they've rallied all of these internal resources to take a deal through a cycle.
11:19Okay. So, I've done pretty well in this set of questions. I'm running through this hypothetical uh interview process with you. Next step, do we do do I need to do a demo? Do I need to do some form of case study with you? What happens next in our process?
11:32Yeah. So you definitely have to do what we call a business case which is assuming the role of a seller at ramp and you have to go through a discovery call. We'll give a prompt in advance and we really test for three things. Those three things are ramp as a business and as a product the prospective company in question like are you doing your research? Do you know what's going on? Have you read
12:01their 10K? um [clears throat] things of that sort. And then the third is just selling fundamentals. Do they have executive presence? Can they get second and third level discovery questions? Can they quantify pain? Can they articulate the value? And then more than anything, not to oversimplify, would I buy a product from this person?
12:20If I can't say that with conviction, I'm not going to hire them. I feel the same way about hiring leaders. If I'm trying to hire a leader and I don't think I would work for that person, I wouldn't make the call.
12:32And so you sit down with me and you realize that you would buy from me and you do want to work with me.
12:39What does what does the offer stage look like? What do you look for in how I respond to equity versus title versus comp?
12:49I have so many thoughts on this. It it so depends on where you are in your career. Um, if you're a seller looking to join an early stage company, [snorts] thinking about equity, cash, and comp is actually the wrong thing to index on. The right thing to index on is the market, the talent density, the business, and the founders. That's how you have to underwrite it.
13:15Because there's structural advantages if you pick a business that can continue to find growth vectors.
13:24Right? my RAMP story. The reason why I left, I was a mid-market account executive. I quit my job to become an SDR all over again at RAMP. And people looked at me like I had 20 heads. The reason why I did it though is the market had unfair structural advantages. The card business, it's a trillion dollar plus a year market. Expense, same thing.
13:48Bill payments, multi-t trillion dollar a year market. travel, multi- trillion dollar a year market. Banking multi-t trillion dollar a year market. So you don't even have to be a good business to find a way to grow just given those dynamics. The fact that you have the market leading product, you have the most talent dense engineering roster that looks more akin to that of a lab, that of a SpaceX, you're you're going to win. And so because of that, that's where you get the career acceleration.
14:18Like if you care about, oh, I want the VP title and I want a ton of equity, but you're going to go work at a mediocre business that might grow 20 30% a year.
14:31You're making the wrong trade. So, with the greatest of respect, for people that like go and working like AI sales tools, I'm like, really? You're doing like AI revenue forecasting? I'm not being a dick, but I'm just being honest. I'm like, that's really I feel the same way because exact. Yes, that's exactly my point.
14:52Yeah, it's like the John Scully, you know, the Apple moment. You're really gonna spend the rest of your life selling flavored water.
14:59That's it. Unless you have the belief and the conviction that this could turn into something that rivals Salesforce, sure, by all means. Um, go go swing for the fences. But that's hard.
15:12Totally get you. So, sorry. Number one was market. What was number two and number three? Talent density.
15:17Talent density on the current roster.
15:21And then third, founders.
15:23Okay. And so talent density, if we just unpack that, like is that just how good the team is? What does that actually mean?
15:28You know, working in sales, you want to be the beneficiary of having killer engineers. And so first engineers that I met at RAMP were otherworldly. was like the youngest person to ever graduate from MIT, someone that had already built and sold a business to Apple in his dorm room at Stanford. You know, the the II gold medal Olympic track, that is that that's what you want to underwrite. And then the fact that Eric and Kareem had already built and sold a business to
15:58Capital One, that doesn't happen by accident.
16:00That's a pretty solid engineering team to start with, isn't it? Youngest kid to ever graduate from MIT. Gosh. [laughter] God. [gasps] Okay, fine. My four weeks at university are really making me feel guilty now. [laughter] That's why we're sellers, Max. Okay, that's right. That's right. I went to state school, baby.
16:20Yeah, there we go. Okay, so that's talent density. I get that. And then the third is founders. And when we say founders, like can we unpack that a little bit because we see a rise of engineering founders who suck at sales, definitely haven't built out a sales playbook, definitely don't have really much clue about sales. How would you think about that as a potential founding team to join?
16:41That's totally fine. Um, and I think we're going to see more and more of that. Um, as a lot of engineers who are looking to go start their own AI native businesses, I think you need to test for a few things. Are they seller friendly? And I'll explain an example of of what that might mean. And then two, their willingness to engage and be involved in taking feedback such that the product can mature and become
17:09sophisticated enough to meet the demanding needs that sales will face.
17:14But I'll I'll go deep on the first example. Being seller friendly. What does that mean? Well, will your technical co-founder give you engineering resources to help build the machine? Sales is very much an engineering problem when you break it down. It's a data infrastructure problem. It's a math problem. And so, you need to build the systems to help give you leverage and automate such that you can create a ton of capacity. And
17:42I think I give a lot of credit to Kareem early on with providing engineering resources to myself to build out our oats program super early on in the business.
17:53I'm so sorry. What is an oats program?
17:57Why is it a data infrastructure problem?
17:59Why is it a mass problem? Can you just help me understand this? Seriously?
18:02Yeah. So outbound used to primarily be a writing and a calling problem. I think increasingly it's becoming an engineering problem. Um in late 2020, early 21, even before the rise of of AI, we built our own internal infrastructure to help automate a lot of our outbound. And that's what Oats is an
18:29acronym for, outbound automation team. And so let me break this down. So the team was understanding what I was doing to go to market. How I was creating signals inside of accounts.
18:44And the signals could be unbounded. It could be a new hire just joined the business. It could be I went to the same university as this person. We have overlapping investors on our cap table and that was very manual. You know, you got to build the templates, you got to find the contact data. Well, it's why is our sales team doing that? They should be focused on just speaking with the customer and helping solve their
19:11business problems and getting ramp deployed. And so our team of engineers built a lot of automation to do the list scraping, do the email outreach, and it was I'm so sorry. So if I if I'm a founder then listening to this wanting to do the same, what do I do? I tell my engineers to get Zoom info.
19:32No, that's part of it. You tell one or two of your top engineers that, hey, we could build the coolest product in the world. It doesn't [ __ ] matter if it doesn't get into the hands of paying customers. And so we need to obsess over growth as it's existential for our business. What are we solving for here?
19:52I don't get it. Are we solving for finding new leads or for for outreach to them? How do we handle the integrations of whether it should be an email or a LinkedIn message?
20:01Yeah. You're you're solving for coverage, right? In the the early innings of your business, you're not going to have an army of go to market talent. M you might have three to a half a dozen of folks that are responsible for outbounding. Guess what that that's if you do that manually like maybe you could get a couple hundred emails out. Maybe you could make a hundred dials.
20:26That's not enough. Especially in markets today where the TAMs are becoming more and more unbounded. You need you need leverage. And so the the the problem you're solving for is coverage and brand awareness and getting your name out. You just can't be dependent on sellers to do that.
20:44Do you not think you have efficacy reduction? In other words, less efficient outbound with scale versus if I sent 20 really really great messages that are researched, thoughtful, included a joke about our alma matter and a picture of me and my mom walking on the weekend. my efficiency would be through the roof. Genuine asking, not telling.
21:08That is a concern. You have to make the system recursive to actually understand what is yielding results such that it optimizes over time. And so if you're just relying on automated emails that are going out and out and out, that that's irrelevant. You have to constantly be AB testing and pulling in what's actually going to yield the best results. And then guess what? you still allow for manual outreach from your sales team because they to your point if you're going to send 20 unbelievably
21:37curated notes the likelihood of those getting responded sure it is higher and then the the system can identify that take that feedback pull it in and start actually doing it at scale do you have engineers in sales permanently this isn't like a oneanddone sales tool build we do we have a growth engineering team that um yeah I think there's at least half a dozen engineers that truly obsess
22:04over building products for go to market.
22:07What's a good response rate when you're sending outbound in a tool like this?
22:12Response rates over time since the acceleration of AI have actually regressed pretty meaningfully. But um response rate isn't the right metric to index on. It's meeting response rate cuz like you could get a 5% response rate but if they're saying please never email me again or opt out or [ __ ] off that's not directionally helpful.
22:37And so is is how many you convert to a meeting.
22:41And that should be just a hair under 1%. I think is is really really strong standard. So for every hundred emails you're sending those convert to one.
22:51That's that's great.
22:53How quickly do you verticalize your sales team? Because all of this can become better, more efficient, more accurate with verticalization. Hey, we've got clients including British Airways, Delta, and Ryan Air. Oh, wow.
23:07Okay, we're targeting the travel industry and specifically airlines. Do you see what I mean? H when is the right time? And how do you think about that?
23:15Yeah, I think the right time to verticalize your business is when you need to pull the lever to inlect conversion. [clears throat] And so I think companies actually verticalize far too early. Especially if you have a huge addressable market, you're in land grab market share mode.
23:36And so I think verticalizing the business may actually be counterproductive to doing that. But as you own more and more of the market, I think this is arbitrary, but I'd say, you know, three to 5%, guess what? The total amount of opportunities you can go after starts to become contained. And so the lever that you need to pull is you need to be able to convert leads to close one at a higher clip. And so I think that is the moment when you start to verticalize.
24:05you know, looking at companies that I think have done this moderately well, the Oracles, the Workdays, the SAPs of the world, that's exactly what they've done.
24:14One of the reasons I like verticalization of sales teams is what it does to sales cycles. Often the messaging is better. It's more accurate. Um, value props kind of clearer, and I just see a compression in the sales cycle when I see that verticalization.
24:30What are the biggest lessons you have on how to compress sales cycles?
24:35It's nuance depending on the segment that you're going after. But the best way to compress [clears throat] sales cycles is qualifying with more rigor.
24:46So upstream you need to understand does this person have the influence to actually infectuate change? And are they reasonably committed to doing this within a 12-month period? If you could check those boxes, yes, swing swing at it.
25:01How do you determine that actually?
25:03Because a lot of people like to have ego and say they're very important and a lot of people will like to please you and say yes, they'll do it fast. How do you actually determine it?
25:12Yeah, you you you've got to test them.
25:14The way to test them is if they're not uh in the seauite or they don't have a VP title, you have to know who their boss is in the ORC chart. And so if you've had an unbelievable call and you've earned the right to pull in another stakeholder, you have to ask for it. And there's a subtle way to do this where it's seemingly a give to get. Hey Harry, today was awesome. I have a lot of conviction that we can solve this problem for your business.
25:43We're going to knock this demo out of the park. I'm going to bring on a bunch of my technical resources. in an effort to bring them onto the call. My ask would be that you bring Susan, your VP of procurement, into this next conversation, you'll know right then and there. Is this person going to is Harry going to bring Susan into the call?
26:01Okay, great. You may have a champion. You may have someone that can infectuate change. If not, oh, why aren't you? Are you just window shopping? Do you not have a relationship with your boss? Can you not actually do this? So, it's it's it's a really good way to test that out.
26:15Ah, so I I love that and Susan would love to come. One thing that's really it's important for us right now is just cost controls. And so Max, can you help me out here? You're saying that you're charging, you know, four bucks per card or four bucks per seed or four bucks per unit of whatever we're selling.
26:32Um, I'm going to need it at two. Um, are you going to be able to meet me there, Max? I guess to buy we haven't even determined technically if this is going to fit for your organization. Um and so look we we can figure out economics. I think once you see how this product's going to transform and change your business, it's be a lot more financial impact back to 20VC than trading two bucks.
27:02But so you you don't engage on discounting cuz so many founders say to me, I just don't know how to do it. I want to close the deal, but they want a 20% discount.
27:10Yeah. I I think like early on in the conversation, if we're coming to discuss economics and pricing after call one, that's that's usually a a bad sign. Um it's not a sophisticated buyer on the other end. Um, unless it's super down market, you're talking to a 10 person startup founder and you're trying to one call close, like for sure, maybe I'll I'll engage that way and we'll discount to get the deal in the door. But, um, up
27:39market, no, you have to co-author business value assessments. Like, you really have to understand what are they trying to solve and what does the total cost of ownership look like? Are you trying to get a margin win? Um, are you trying to make your accounting function more efficient and give yourself FTE leverage? Um, and if you could mutually agree to that, you could circumvent [clears throat] any pricing concessions because hopefully
28:07you're driving seven figures in value creation.
28:12Speaking of driving seven figures in value creation, we're gonna go back to this like beautiful interview process because I've impressed you so much. You're so excited for me to join RAMP day one and you want to give me a job and it's time for comp design. Okay.
28:25Compensation design. Can you help me?
28:28What how do you advise founders on comp design for the first AE and the first SDR?
28:36Yeah. I usually advise to not have a comp plan. I usually advise to do 100% OTE for at least the first two quarters. You just don't know what you don't know.
28:52And I've actually seen founders get into some trouble where they make a quota that gets blown out in the first 6 months and it's, "Holy [ __ ] I owe this seller multiple six figures." Um, I've seen the inverse happen as well where you arbitrarily finger in the air. Um, oh, I think this person could close this amount or I think this person can book this many meetings and it's not attainable and then you're struggling to get momentum and a tailwind going and then confidence gets hit and
29:20confidence is hard to regain once lost I find.
29:24Yeah. Even if they do okay, I've seen it though where even when they do okay, I'm making up numbers. Say they close 250 but you set me 500. 250 would have actually been okay. It was it was solid. Like decent, not a bad start. But because it was half of what you set, I feel like I'm really bad.
29:41That's right. And in some ways, there's there's a little bit of benefit to that where, you know, if you get the right person, they've got a fire lit under them and they feel like they're not meeting expectations. There's some healthy angst, but it depends on the the archetype that you bring in.
29:56Well, so just Paul, so we're 100% OT.
29:58when does that change and how do we then instigate a different discussion around correcting that plan data like typically this would take it depends on what segments you're going after but if you have cycle times that are less than 6 months you should have enough data in the system to figure out okay this person has been in seat for 2 months they've ramped for the first 90 days we're seeing stage progression here we have reason to believe that
30:27pipeline's going to be X let's make a quota that is both ambitious and somewhat reasonable based on the data that we have and you you should never hire one seller one SDR at a time because the problem is how are you going to benchmark their performance how do you know if they're good you going to benchmark them against yourself as the founder I don't think that's reasonable also as a founder if you're going to be spending time onboarding a seller that's laborious that's expensive
30:55do it in pairs and there's competition there's collaboration. They're not lonely. I I strongly advise against one at a time.
31:04Okay. I I totally get that. And so we strongly advise against one at a time.
31:09Do we always shed one or do we sometimes keep them both?
31:12How do you mean like if someone isn't performing well?
31:15By nature of having two, one will always perform worse than the first. How often do you keep them both versus get rid of one?
31:23I think it it it depends. If someone is just complete outlier destroying the other seller, yeah, you you probably need to shed that person. If it's a 10 to 20% delta, you have to you have to go deeper and unpack it. Like why why is this person winning more? Like what structural advantage might they have? Is it pipeline that I gave them? Is it pipeline that came from our cap table?
31:47Is it something else? Do they know the product better? Uh are they more motivated? Do they give a [ __ ] and the other person doesn't? Like this is this is on the founder to go ascertain.
31:58So for the 100% OT sorry going back to that that's for SDRs. Does that change when we're doing comp design for AES?
32:06No, it's for it's unilateral across early go to market teams. Yeah.
32:10What are the big mistakes you think founders make when they're doing comp design? Cuz again like we have challenging nuances like when you have new products you want to incentivize them more. You want to encourage bonuses for selling more of those, but I don't want to then have a load of people sell all of that and none of the core. How do you think about that? Depends on stage first. If you're an early stage founder, um, you're probably still trying to take one
32:39product to market and you want to focus on that. You really need to understand your ICP. Set another way, it's so much more valuable to have 20 customers that are raving and thrilled about one single product offering than you in a half-ass way serving six customers on multiple products that aren't as thrilled. You need to get the tailwind going of case studies, references, and positive mo momentum across your business. later
33:08stage though like where ramp is today um incentive design is incredibly important and I think it's I think it's existential to overcentivize new products to get off the ground u and so thinking through 2x to 3x quota retirement for new products you got to get the again you have to get the momentum going such that you earn your way into more multi-product customers more case
33:37studies is more momentum when you get a higher wrong. Max, what do you not see that you should see?
33:45So, like for me sometimes I'm I'm quite um overtly aggressive. It's very innate.
33:53I'm intense and I'm going to [ __ ] kill competition and I'm going to salivate over it and I'm happy to talk about that. The quiet killers I don't find as easy sometimes to uncover. That would be the talent that I miss and I try and correct for that. When you make a mistake on hiring, what do you miss that you should see? People in sales, especially leadership, naturally tend to interview well.
34:21They are sellers by trade. They know how to say the right things. They know how to respond extremely quickly in the interview process to show that they are urgent and can follow up ruthlessly. I think the the only mistakes that we've made are overindexing on pedigree um and coming from you know the bigname brands and not truly
34:49understanding two things. One do they have the agency and do they possess the figure it out X factor where they do not need to be dependent and reliant on so many different internal resources. And then two, which is related, are they going to go allin? Are they going to have a deep obsession with working at Rant? Like it has to become their identity. And if both of those things aren't ascertained crisply in the interview process, it could come out and it's it's
35:18sometimes the wrong hire.
35:19Chad Pete said on the show, u legendary sales leader, um he said that young people just don't want to work. Um, and that there is a different appreciation for work. They want to work from home. They want work life balance. They want mission. They get burnt out. They want kombucha. Is he right?
35:42I love Chad. Um, so much.
35:46I I He He He's a beast. I love Denon, too. That was a fun show. I think he's right. It's it's a bit provocative, but there are plenty of young professionals that do want to go allin and you have to find them and it's on you to build the culture internally to make sure people want to come into the office every single day. We have younger sellers in their career that badge in on Saturdays and Sundays. Nobody's asking them to do
36:14that. But if you create that culture, it's um it's super infectious. And the beauty of that culture is it sniffs out people that do come in that don't want to adhere to that. Like look, if if you want to work remote and you want to make calls for 4 hours a day, other IC's in the business are just not going to let that permeate throughout our work. Help me understand. I'm delighted to accept
36:41your offer. Thank you so much, Max.
36:45What have been your biggest lessons on how to onboard new reps effectively?
36:49So early stage, you're all locked into a room. Okay, you're going through four [snorts] very key components. The first of which is the product and the technology that you're selling. And I'll go through all of these in in sequential order. Um the second is the buyer personas that you're selling into.
37:13The third is the competitive landscape and the fourth is just like the internal operating chaos of how your systems run and what you need to know as a seller. And so on on point one, look in in the age of AI um and especially as the next generation of buyers sit and seat, they have what I would describe as [ __ ] repellent. They are direct.
37:41they could get answers quickly. And so the expectation is if they're talking to a seller, they need answers quickly, too. And so if you're not technically proficient in your product offering, you're you're you're fairly useless as a seller. The second is the buyer personas that you're selling into. This is really important. You need to know what their priorities are. You need to understand their challenges. And it differs if you're talking to a CFO of a ventureback software company. That conversation is
38:10going to be a hell of a lot different than if you're talking to the senior accountant of a construction business. And you need to know the two like one is going to be super high level. They are trying to drive positive business outcomes. The accountant might need one workflow that is tied to the monthend close that is creating a lot of laborious chaos for them and you need to have that context switching capability.
38:34The third, the competitive landscape. We obviously play in an incredibly saturated market. A lot of [snorts] players um claim to do many of the same things. You need to study these businesses. You need to understand their weaknesses and you need to expose them in a diplomatic way where you're positioning your product to be as perfect as possible for the buyer in question.
38:57Do you have a boot camp where you go through these stages?
39:00We do. Can you walk me through that?
39:02Like how long is it? Um who who leads it? what materials all that like?
39:07Yeah. So, we have a gentleman, Kyle, who runs our enablement business at RAMP. He's fantastic. He's uh he's not a traditional enablement leader by any means. He's a killer seller turned sales leader that we've brought in to really perfect not only onboarding but ongoing enablement for for our sellers to continue to develop their acumen and and product fluency. In the boot camp specifically, depending on the segment, it's going to
39:40be 60 to 90 days. The first first four weeks is fairly rigorous with many milestones that you need to hit. Some of this is intense hands-on keyboard. Some of it is, you know, self-guided skills that our enablement team has created across all of these different topics. And then the milestones, there's a lot of rigor that goes into this. You need to you need to complete a disco certification and you need to be
40:09excellent. You need to complete a demo certification and you need to be excellent. I like to pop into these periodically and if you don't complete them, you don't get turned on in the router. You don't get your accounts and so it's it's existential that you perform well otherwise your ability to ramp and become a successful seller is contained.
40:33How long before I start speaking to clients or customers on my own?
40:37Two to four weeks, depending on your segment.
40:39Wow. We try and make it as quick as possible.
40:42And I'm going to be listening to a load of Gong calls before that to really try and understand the cadence, the language, the pattern.
40:49Absolutely. You're going to be listening to Gong calls. You're going to be joining live calls. You're going to be in team meetings, um, listening to pipeline reviews and forecasting calls and everything in between. And then guess what? After your first call, your leader is responsible for riding shotgun and making sure they're supporting you from start to finish. If you're running a big sales team and you're just dependent on
41:19enablement, you're going to die. You need your frontline leaders to lean in aggressively and also be as deep in the weeds as possible with new new hires on boarding. It's one of those ones which sounds obvious but is hard when you are when you are a leader to like delve down into the I don't mean it awfully but it's kind of like intern batches in venture funds where you're like 100% everyone wants to help young people but like I got to close the big [ __ ] whale of a deal
41:46100%. But you have to do both. Yeah, of course you have a number that you're responsible for. And so yeah, if there's a big swing deal and you're a frontline leader, yeah, you're all hands on deck at the same time. Guess what? your numbers going to keep going up sequentially month over month, quarter over quarter as these new sellers ramp up. And so you're directly incentivized to make sure that they're coming into the system to be killers. Otherwise, you're going to be in trouble as a leader.
42:14What percent of first calls do you think you're impressed by versus disappointed by?
42:207030. [snorts] 70 in the camp of I'm impressed. 30 in the camp of this is just not to our standard. And so what happens in the 30%?
42:30Yeah, look, I'm I'm actually fairly in the weeds on this um where I'm reviewing and watching a lot of gone calls specifically with new hires. Candidly, even more of our our tenur reps and if it's not to our standard, I'm pulling them in and our leader and we're going to talk about it.
42:50It's tough, but it's right. If you join a [clears throat] sales team that doesn't have your leader or your SVP that into the weeds holding you accountable, that's probably a bad sign.
43:05Talk about holding you to account. Let's say I come out of these 90 days. Okay, I'm ready. I'm unleashed in the wild. Um Carles, who was the head of sales at 11 raps, said that they get 20x quota. Now, it was a slightly slightly popular clip.
43:23Um, h how do you feel about that? What is like good to you? And how would you advise founders listening?
43:32I sort of lean in the camp of Degen on this one where if you're that efficient, you're probably leaving money on the table and you need more reps. I think the old school thought um you know that the snowflakes and the mongos used to run of you know four to one or five to one that's too low. I think depending on our segments at ramp it's anywhere from 7 to 12. I think that's pretty healthy.
44:02It's a lot. I want you to pay me more if I was doing 12 to1. Dude, I know. We might have to cut that.
44:07Pay me pay me pay me double and then it'll be six to one. [laughter] We might have to cut that part out. But I don't know if our uh inside sales reps actually know that uh some of them are like 14 to1.
44:19Uh they are 100%. I think it's good. You want like the hunger games of competition.
44:23Okay. So for me as like an early stage company though, I'm in the 6 to 10 range now is where I kind of need to be hitting to be in a you are a performance sales team.
44:34I think that's right.
44:36And like ramp time, how long do you give me to to ramp post boot camp? Because obviously boot camp kind of getting my feet on the ground like how long do I get to ramp?
44:46Again, it depends on the seg segment.
44:47Our down market sellers, inside sales reps 60 days, commercial reps 90 days, mid-market 4 months, enterprise 5 months, and our strategic enterprise is a six-month ramping schedule. The reason why those ramping schedules exist in that way is just due to cycle length timing. How quickly do you know if someone's not very good?
45:10I think it's actually fairly simple to get a pulse check on if someone is going to be good or not. I think there's a direct correlation in onboarding with sellers that are annoying and sellers that are are not. And and when I say sellers that are annoying, they are constantly asking questions 24/7.
45:32They're very thoughtful. They're talking about account strategy. They want to pick your brain about, you know, pipeline and getting you to send emails on their on their behalf. They want to ask you product questions and it's never ending. There is a direct correlation with that person being incredible. The inverse is not always true, but I think the folks that are quiet, not asking any questions or asking questions that any AI bot or notion bot can answer, usually
46:01that's going to be weak signal.
46:02I I always say actually the quality of a found is very obvious. It's the quality of the questions a founder asks at the end of an interview with a VC or a meeting with VC%. That's why I intentionally leave at least 10 minutes in an interview for them to fire away at me because it tells you people think like you my partners will often say why why are we spending so much time answering their question like cuz it's you don't get it. I'm actually measuring them.
46:24They go tell me you've got four partners. Is it an equal vote in the IC or how do you guys think about investment decisionm? Hm. That's quite a exactly small question.
46:36I think about it the same way. I think about an interview where I intentionally need to give them at least 10 to 15 minutes to fire away as if they're trying to sell into me. And so I get some sellers who will say, "Hey, Max, I spoke with Scott on your enterprise team. I know he's number one right now.
46:57The reason uh why I think he's doing really well is he walked me through his process. Here's here's how I think about sales and why it's uniquely very similar to what it is that Scott's doing. That makes me a really good fit for this role. In the same way that you're breaking into an enterprise account, if I'm a seller and I get on the phone with a CFO, hey Mr. CFO, I spoke with your controller. These are the pain points.
47:22These are the challenges. Here's how I think ramp can uniquely solve some of these said challenges. It's the same thing that I'm trying to ascertain.
47:30Can I ask you, you've mentioned Dagnan quite a few times. Dagnan always says to me like, I think customer success is [ __ ] Like it should be paid for professional services. I'm I'm not sure if he's right. Do Do you think CS is [ __ ] and it should just be paid for?
47:45I have like a slight spin on that. Um but look I I I believe enormously in customer success as an outcome. Um and as a result like we've decided to make customer success an organizational construct in our business. Um and they're highly technical. Some of them are CPAs by trade. They're proficient in
48:13ERP and accounting systems. And so it's almost an extension of the customer's accounting function in ways that I don't think you can replicate with a professional services business and the economics of our product work such that we can subsidize a lot of that work. And so look, I I think there's a lot of value that that team drives for us. And while that might work for for Snowflake, I don't think it's the right decision for us at RAM. You kind of have to think
48:42of customer success as the economic engine that is going to drive NDR for your portfolio of customers over time. And so we want to be hands-on keyboard.
48:56We want to own the outcome because at the time of the initial transaction, that deployment is so incredibly important because if we knock it out and we do well and we deliver value, guess what? We earn the right to over time sell more and more products in ramp today. There's no shortage of new products. We have to think through how can we thoughtfully cross-ell, upsell, and expand all with the goal in mind of
49:23driving financial impact and operational efficiency for our customers. But guess what? If you don't do that perfectly at the onset, it's going to be increasingly difficult to earn your way into selling more products over time. The hard thing about I find expansion is forecasting. Um it's difficult to forecast expansion number one. But I find forecasting stages just like freaking impossible.
49:46The volatility inherent within our ecosystem is so high. Growth rates we can ever how do you think about forecasting today as a leader? And what's your advice to founders and leaders, sales leaders on how to forecast in 2026? I'm the beneficiary of having an unbelievable counterpart in finance. His name's Asher, who has built pretty ridiculous systems and models around forecasting such that they are
50:14consistently within a 5% delta across the entire business. And so there's uh when you've been biggest delta, what did it not see?
50:25Nothing. because we're at we're at we're at the law of large numbers at this point years ago before we've had the discipline in our revenue operations function. Yeah. A lot of this was selfdone by sales and there was discrepancy. I think the the advice that I'd give and like the lever we pulled to make it far more consistent is guess what sellers, you're not going to be compensated or quoted on your
50:52forecasting accuracy and discipline, but it's part of your performance review. It's coming up in one-on- ones. It's coming up in your QBRs. And so forecasting accuracy at the onset of the seller, guess what? They they're they're incentivized to care. The same thing with frontline leaders. The same thing with segment leaders. If you don't make it part of your performance culture, I think it's going to be hard because a lot of sellers are going to use emotion.
51:19Oh, they told us we're vendor of choice. Well, guess what? They haven't even kicked off legal or infosc. We've got three days left in the quarter. Um, so I think really holding everybody accountable in that way is is how I describe it.
51:36How often do you do pipe review, Max?
51:38Gosh, we do pipeline reviews once a week. Um, what's great though is I've gotten rid of forecasting calls because it's so systemdriven and there was too much duplicative overlap and it's just performative work theater. We don't need that. Like every hour matters and as a leader I need to give as much capacity as humanly possible. Um otherwise it's an expensive problem. So with pipe
52:06reviews, who comes who gets the invite?
52:09Yeah. So they are led by segment leaders.
52:15All frontline leaders are on and then it's a rotation of certain IC's that go through their biggest deals. What we try to focus on like we we don't really care that much about deals that are in a beautiful spot. It's like what are the deals that are at risk of losing and what are we going to do as a unit to derisk and try try and advance. Um I think it's also important to understand what are the deals that we've lost. How do we stop the losses? Is it something
52:45that we could have controlled? Is it a product gap? Is it pricing? Is it something else?
52:50When you lose, why do you lose? I would say the majority of the time we're losing to the status quo, which is on us. That's not a product gap. That's a we need to look ourselves in the mirror. We did not create enough urgency.
53:09And you can manufacture urgency as a seller. You got to latch on to a big business problem. You got to find the right person internally that's motivated enough to actually make a change because it's going to impact their career. they could yield political capital from it. You might not get that with somebody lowle. You might not get that with a CFO. It's like you have to be appropriately multi-threaded.
53:29Dude, we're seeing brand marketing spend like never before from big brands like RAMP. Um are you seeing the effect of that as a sales team?
53:40Do you see the compression of that in sales cycles? Do you see the warmth of buyers going, "Oh, I saw you on the subway." Oh, I saw you on I Boston Red Sox shirt or whatever you Americans watch sports.
53:53Yeah, it it certainly helps. Look, we have a lot of hype and buzz. It it's hard to truly attribute this in the data, but it's a surround sound for our outbound SDR team, especially if we're in certain markets, certain geos.
54:10It's uh a way for sellers with customers and just as critically prospects in funnel to invite folks to a sporting event, invite folks to our bill pay musical, invite people to bespoke dinners and and things of that sort. And it's it's definitely showing up in cycle times, in customer willingness to expand their usage of ramp. It is it's it's directly correlated. What would you most
54:40like to change about your internal sales process today that you haven't changed yet or can't change? I think if someone could ever say the type of interviewer that I am, they would say that I make them reflective.
54:53I think often wisdom comes from reflection.
54:56And and it's the joy of the way we do these shows. We cut out all the pauses that we but I think reflection is so important as the models have gotten better. um really predates to end of last year, early this year. We've done so much for our sellers to unlock a lot of capacity. And I'll give I'll give examples of this. Like sales is is very much a conveyor belt. You're a seller.
55:29You have an initial meeting with a business. There's work you have to do prior to that meeting. You have to go perform your independent research. What does that mean? You got to go into LinkedIn.
55:40You got to go on their website. You got to go into Pitchbook. You got to go into all of these different third party sources and publications. When we came to figure out the time of of this labor, it's like anywhere from 15 to 30 minutes on the high end. Maybe if you're exceptional, maybe 10 minutes. When you quantify that, Harry, across hundreds and hundreds of sellers, that is a disgusting loss of productivity. And so,
56:08we've built our own internal revenue operating system called Ramp Revenue that performs a lot of this pre-all research.
56:20And what's great about it is it actually bridges the talent gap. When I think about it, like what an amazing seller might do is, okay, cool. They just launched a new product. KKR just came in. They're now the new sponsor on the debt. Um, this random person that isn't even in finance or accounting happened to use RAMP at a previous company. An average seller might neglect all of that. And so, like what this system does is it bridges the
56:48talent gap. One, so going into a call at your fingertips, you know exactly what you need to say and how to execute. And then two, the the time savings. Like at most that's going to take you 90 seconds to perform your pre-call research. And so when you quantify that across all of go to market, there's just significant capacity unlock that I turn into extra selling days which allows us to over time increase quotas. Increasing quotas is is more revenue back to the business.
57:16And would you ever open that up to the public? But what one thing that we're seeing with deal in particular um and uh Revolute actually in some cases for their performance management software is they built these internal tools and now they're selling them. Would you and to what extent is secret source secret versus monetizable cuz you've got ramp router don't you?
57:38You've got the open ramp router. So on the ramp revenue piece, like I I won't speak for Eric and Kareem, but our our ambitions are well beyond owning the office of the CFO. And so I can certainly see a time when we take these other products to market. I think it comes down to timing and sequencing these appropriately such that, you know, our go to market organization can
58:06structurally handle all of this change.
58:09That's a [ __ ] It's not just like a product decision. Like you can't just be like, "Oh yeah, why don't we do RAM revenue?" It's like, now Ram revenue actually needs salespeople to sell it, to implement it, to do customer success on it, to market it. And I think this is what people so often get wrong with enterprise, which is you can't just like give it a go. It's like you need cuz give it a go in consumer. You can Yeah. You flip a light switch on. Yeah.
58:32Yeah. No, honestly, yeah, you can. And it's much easier. Let's see how it goes.
58:36But it's so different and it's so complex. And this is why I think people get it so wrong when they're like, "Oh, Astra law is going to kill Harvey and Lagora." It's like, are you serious? You think the training and deployment methods are going to be the same for Open AI and for Harvey and Nagora who spent two years kissing? Can I final one? Where do you fall down as a sales leader where you feel you need to improve most? I think my my biggest thing that I'm I'm working on is
59:06resisting the instinct to personally jump into every important problem. A lot of a lot of what helped me progress at RAMP was being incredibly hands-on. Um you know, if there's an important deal, um important customer, I'm all over it. But, you know, that that only works well for a certain period of time. Like as your scope gets bigger and bigger, that instinct can actually become a weakness.
59:33And so set another way, if I jump in to every deal and solve it, maybe we win the deal, but I haven't necessarily made my sales organization better. And worse, I I can, you know, unintentionally teach people that when something gets sufficiently important, Max is just going to jump in and take over. That's going to become a constraint. like I need to build more and more barrels inside of the go to market organization otherwise I'm I'm
1:00:02not doing my job effectively as a leader and you don't build those barrels because you're busy just in the machine.
1:00:08I think you have to do both. Like something I pride myself on as a leader and I force it across all of the other leaders in go to market is you got to be a dual threat. You got to be able to operate in the clouds. You got to be able to go toe-to-toe with me, toe-to-toe with Eric, toeto- toe with Will and Colin. At the same time, you have to be in the trenches with your sellers. Still to this day, I'm making cold calls. I'm sending at least five cold emails every single day.
1:00:42And the the moment that we as leaders get further and further away from the customer and what it is that our sellers are do doing, I think we die. I don't think we're being helpful or adding value to our sales team. There's nothing less inspiring as a seller than taking instruction from someone that you don't believe can do the job better than you.
1:01:04Can I ask you what what do you think Eric Kareem did to imbue a founderike mentality within you? Like when I talk to you now, it very much feels like speaking to a founder. You know, I was just thinking, my gosh, I would like to poach Max. I I was upfront about uh alternate investment. I'm like, we got to poach Max. Come [laughter] on.
1:01:32And like you know I I know that you'd be like come on go [ __ ] yourself. And so my question just to you is like it's amazing and I'm giving Ramp credit here. Um what do you think Ramp and Eric and Kareem did to make no offense Max from Namely who wasn't extraordinary.
1:01:53I think a few things. One a lot of exposure. Like when when I joined RAM my boss was effectively Eric. I'm seeing him in sales conversations. I'm seeing him talking to investors. I'm seeing and operating out of his email inbox. Like it felt like I earned 50 MBAs in a 9-month period of time. That was in insane acceleration. And then two, also exposure to investors that have seen and done this before. Like I'm super
1:02:22grateful that I get to call Dave Schneider a friend and a mentor. Um I've learned a lot from him. And then two, co Col Colin, my boss, is is exceptional.
1:02:33Like, he's taken companies public. He's sold businesses. And so, I think just being in the room has allowed me to absorb a lot of this knowledge. And two, it's forced me to figure it the [ __ ] out. Like, I'm not naive to the fact that I have to earn this every day. If I if I don't perform, I could lose my job at any moment. if I'm not buttoned up in executive conversations with Eric, whether it's external with a customer or internal with a hot board topic, why
1:03:02would I still have this position? And so like I I think it's a combination and a sum of all parts of the founders have given me a lot of exposure. They hold me intensely accountable and I have like a healthy amount of stress and paranoia that if I don't keep delivering and I don't keep growing, the music could stop.
1:03:22Yeah. Dave Schneider said one of the greatest lines ever to me on a podcast.
1:03:26He came to London. Love this guy. He says, "Vs are like seagulls. They like to fly, you know, 100 ft ahead of you, look down on you, and then just take a big crap all over you." [laughter] And I just, you know, honestly, I can't remember anything else he said, but that that one line really stuck with me. He had he had the best one line around um I forget what the topic it was something around like how do you how do you
1:03:54measure uh performance and like how do you um how do you stack rank and he's like Max there's three categories of performance in sales one you are god two I don't know yet or three you're [ __ ] fired [laughter] it's really true it's so true you know what it also taught me that when you listen to what I just said, which is like, oh, the sea girl [ __ ] on you. And yeah, it's better to be a purple cow sometimes, which is like, you know, the
1:04:24Seth Goden, being different is sometimes being better.
1:04:27Yeah. [laughter] Uh, dude, we're going to do a quick fire because otherwise I could talk to you all day and you've got a quot to hit.
1:04:32Um, uh, what one sales tool could you not live without?
1:04:36I don't know if I could say this publicly, but I'm going to. Um, Inspect. Inspect is our is RAMP's internal coding agent in harness. It feels as though I have an engineer and a sales engineer in my pocket at any given moment.
1:04:58Have you guys just built all your own [ __ ] tools?
1:05:01Harry, this when I come to London, I'll I'll show you this. It is insane what our sellers can accomplish with inspect like creating bespoke custom demos performing any analysis on you know current customers ramp configuration it's epic who's to credit for that is that as the CTO who's built the internal tooling yeah I I give dual credit to
1:05:30Eric and Kareem it's just culturally in our DNA to push forward and go build.
1:05:38Okay. You have a job offer that you know will not be rejected. You can give it to anyone in sales in the world to join the ramp sales team. I liked Becca Linquist a lot from Clay.
1:05:53I was literally going to say she was very good. Becca or someone that's under like I'm a big believer in finding someone that's just about to hit an insane trajectory.
1:06:08Again, my whole thesis on mispriced assets. Um there's a guy Charlie Demouth who's an enterprise frontline leader at Profound. He's an animal and I've been every every six months I I try and bring him in. Hopefully Mark uh doesn't listen to this because he's the SVP of sales of profound.
1:06:29What's your biggest advice to a new rep on their first day?
1:06:33You need to you need to go allin. You need to be obsessed because if you're not obsessed, you're going to be average. And the additive thing I' I'd say too is be a problem solver. Don't be a problem finder. Anybody can be a problem finder at a startup. There's a thousand things on fire every waking moment. Very few can be a problem solver. As a new seller, you bring a
1:07:02fresh perspective. You could see there could be something structurally wrong with our process. There's something that you were doing at your previous company that might be applied to help move the business forward.
1:07:14That is how you're going to accelerate your career and do well. I guess with obsession, like [clears throat] take [ __ ] onboarding seriously. Pass your certifications, break into accounts, start creating a lot of your own pipeline, all the basic stuff that you'd be surprised some people neglect it.
1:07:29I'm was like, listen, accept blame and deflect credit. Like the worst thing for me is like, oh, no, no, but that wasn't my fault. That was Max's fault.
1:07:39Yep. There's nothing worse than going to your leader and saying, hey, do you have any feedback for me? That's an atrocious exercise for everybody involved. Come to the table with a point of view. Hey, I noticed this in my last two deals. Here's how I'm thinking about course correcting.
1:07:57I'd love to get your take. I'd love to get your advice. Am I viewing this the right way? Have you seen this play out with other sellers? That that's just the mindset that you need to bring to be incredibly effective in your role as a new seller.
1:08:10I agree with you. It's a really good point because whenever but they always do it to me and I'm always like, "Oh, [ __ ] I guess I should have been better at giving you performance reviews.
1:08:18Do you know what I mean? It makes me feel [ __ ] You're kind of asking a horizontal question that's not like, "Hey, I feel like I need help with the closing process." What does [clears throat] Yes. Yes. Same with leaders. Same with leaders. Hey, um, do you have any feedback for me? Hey, I noticed this problem. Here's how I'm going to go solve it.
1:08:39Here's the crossf functional resource that I'm going to need to bring in if I get blocked. Like come help come help me like that.
1:08:49Do you know what [ __ ] me off more than anything? Intro requests is in a similar vein. Horizontal. I'd love an intro to someone at RAM.
1:08:55I know you [ __ ] high like someone at Ram. I can I can do Keith Boy the ball member. I can do Eric Glyman. I can do Max the rockstar sales leader. Uh, but I don't have also a freaking clue why.
1:09:10[clears throat] So, that would be helpful, too. And then on top of that, you know, I get about 50 intro requests a day. Maybe if you could do a copied and paste, that might be helpful, too.
1:09:19The horizontal [ __ ] nature of intro requests astounds me.
1:09:27If you're going to ask for an intro, there needs to be substance. You need to make it so easy that they're just forwarding it to the person with the appropriate context.
1:09:37Max, otherwise you shouldn't expect a response.
1:09:39Max, I'm totally aware of the ask here, but I'd love to meet Colin. I'd love to specifically speak to him about his experience at X. I've added a message below that you can copy and paste. By the way, I totally understand if this is not possible. Huge hugs and let me know when you're in London.
1:09:56Final one for you. What's the kindest thing that anyone's ever done for you?
1:10:01I have to give my wife credit. She was my girlfriend at the time. Um Oh, you're getting brownie points for this one.
1:10:10I I am. Um look, it it was late 2020 and I basically told her what I think this could turn into. This was like four or five months into rant, but I was deliberate in telling her this is going to [ __ ] up our lives. Like we're going to have to make a lot of tradeoffs. Um I'm going to be absent in our social life. Um but like I really want to pursue this and I'm fired up about it.
1:10:37And she was super supportive. Still is today. Um doesn't love my wife. [laughter] And the divorce was expensive.
1:10:49Yeah. Yeah, I think that was that was probably the kindest thing that that anyone's done for me.
1:10:57Wow. Well, dude, listen. Chanel solves a lot of problems. So, you know, it's it's okay. You [laughter] know, I've learned this. I miss a lot of family [ __ ] And my mother has 30 Chanel handbags. So, that's right.
1:11:10We both win, you know. [laughter] Dude, I' I've loved doing this. Um, I I really so enjoy episodes like this where it is granular, it's reflective, it's fun, it it's it's everything in one. So, I really appreciate it, man.
1:11:28Me, too. This was a blast. Uh, I'm such a huge fan of yours. This is full circle moment. Actually, what's funny, I should have said this in the beginning. Back when I was in SDR at RAMP, I always used to listen to your podcast and take anecdotes. this was all done by hand manually and reach out to the founders that you had as guests as a way to try and get them on ramp. And so it's funny 6 and 1/2 years later that I'm sitting