0:04No one told me that she was going to come on my podcast and just humble me for an hour.
0:08What is the meaning of life?
0:10That was your last girl question.
0:13In some ways, I made it harder for myself because I dropped out of high school.
0:22GMO, welcome to my podcast.
0:24It's great to be here.
0:2795% yes. We're in a patio, so I don't know what to expect, but this is a very serious podcast.
0:34Exactly why I'm here.
0:36What is your star sign?
0:41That's not a star sign. When were you born?
0:51I I'm getting Capricorn.
0:53No, you're not a Capricorn.
0:55Opposite. Sagittarius.
0:56Sagittarius. I don't know anything about Sagittariuses.
0:59O, there's a lot to it.
1:01Do you believe in astrology?
1:01Actually, I'm huge on astrology.
1:03You are? Well, I am a Gemini rising Capricorn.
1:08It's 10% down this morning.
1:12But Gemini has a billion users.
1:14Yeah, but I'm I'm a Gemini, right? What's your favorite AI?
1:20If Versel made one, it would be that.
1:22Done. Versail AI gateway.
1:23I haven't used it. You probably have because it's behind the scenes of so many apps and agents. So, it's like infrastructure.
1:31I'd like to kick this off with our rapid fire questions.
1:35What is the last thing you Googled or asked AI about?
1:40What is the meaning of life?
1:42That was your last Google question.
1:47No, my most recent question was probably how to get here.
1:50Okay, great. What's an app on your phone that you'd be embarrassed to name?
1:56I have so many chat apps. I just want to have one.
2:00What was your first coding language?
2:03What is the worst name for a company you've ever thought of?
2:07Bestado spot in the Bay.
2:09There's a place in the mission Lolina.
2:17We're gonna send this to him.
2:20Okay. You came from Argentina.
2:22Yeah. How old were you?
2:26And you moved to the Bay.
2:28Yeah. In fact, I lived nearby by here in North Beach at some point. Although I lived in basically every neighborhood.
2:37Congratulations. Cuz you just had another baby.
2:39Yeah. We just celebrated uh she's one month old.
2:43You know, the meaning of life theme. I was just I just thought, holy crap, times goes goes by so fast. I thought we had the baby yesterday. She's already a month old. She's ready to go to college pretty much. I mean, in the large scheme of things, eventually.
2:58It does. It does pass by fast.
3:01Yeah. That's why I always tell people like if you were thinking about having kids someday in the future, just have it today.
3:12Figure it out. You have 20.
3:13You heard it here. He said have kids tonight.
3:16You'll figure you'll figure everything out.
3:18You'll wake up one day and you're 50.
3:20Yeah, that's true. A lot of people are starting families at age 50.
3:25What did the six kid teach you that the first spot could?
3:29You know, there's that broader theme of my life which is like like to me like every day is day zero. I have to prove myself. I have to show up in the best possible way for myself and for others.
3:42You know, relearn everything from first principles every day. Uh, and for me it's always a reminder that like it it never gets easier and at the same time I wouldn't trade it for anything. Like it's just a matter of life. It's almost like a duality of like I feel like it's my biological imperative and it's so joyful, but it's
4:09like a it's like this challenge of like, wow, it's a lot of work. It doesn't matter like you know there's no difference actually between the first and the sixth in a way and that like because so much of what's difficult is biological it's not that like having a house that's 10 times bigger or having more help or what like it doesn't actually change anything.
4:29Which I'm sure people will object to like oh you have the same amount of responsibilities you're responsible for growing this person into a good person that's going to be a net positive. the fears maybe are less cuz like I' I've always been a like re I mean eyebrow emoji guy like I investigate everything and so imagine like you can Google any symptom detail like oh my god like results from tests and whatever cuz like
4:58there's social uh immunity or whatever.
5:01Yeah. You get cabin syndrome if you're inside for too long when you're outside and you're exposed to contagions and germs. This is why kids on farms have better immune systems than kids in cities.
5:10So I kind of I send them off to farms every day.
5:14Like basically. Yeah. Like I get out of the house.
5:21How did you meet your wife?
5:24You met your wife on Tinder? No, I did not know this. This is juicy.
5:28Wait, this is Tinder. When I say back when Tinder was good.
5:31Okay. So you met her on a dating app?
5:34Wow. And then you saw all of my dating app stuff.
5:36Well, cuz on the news and I was like, I'm not going to make I actually think I am bullish on rethinking dating. You know what I mean?
5:44Like I I think there was probably like a golden era of like it's a little bit like have you heard of the I think it's called the empty internet hypothesis of like most of the internet is just like abandoned and there's only handful of places that are like heavily concentrated with traffic and interest and people. But like it's like I think it's called like the dark internet hypothesis or something.
6:05It's the dead internet theory. Are you gaslighting me right now?
6:10Why? Although I could.
6:12That's what my company is working on.
6:14What is What are you working on?
6:18We're working We're called the human internet company.
6:21You know, I did see that. I did see that.
6:22Yeah. We're working on human verification because most of the internet is bot or dead.
6:25Okay. Violently aligned. Yeah.
6:27And so violently aligned. Directionally very good. Violently aligned. I'm adding that to my vocabulary.
6:32Oh, we It's adversal.
6:35Not because we're violent, but we love finding violence.
6:37And I'm not offended that you came on my podcast and you have no idea what I'm doing for work.
6:40No. No. I saw your site. Didn't Didn't I like it on X?
6:44You did. You did. But you're like, I like a lot of stuff. Are you like your persona on X? Is G in person the same as G on X?
6:52Okay. So, unfiltered.
6:54Although, actually on X, I always feel a sense of like moral responsibility not to spam people. And so I every post is actually well considered.
7:04But my to your point about like the dead internet theory like maybe you could even argue like with the rise of AI bots that now all of the places that were not dead are are have this like they're about to be if they're not. Have you ever looked at your Twitter message uh Twitter message requests like X requests message? It's like tons of bot.
7:24It's interesting. Uh so funny you should mention that I did my support rotation today. Mhm.
7:30So every I think we're doing them more frequently now. I think I'm doing it every month, but at least every quarter I do we create a synthetic identity and like I start respond support tickets and um today I did mine and I was shocked like shocked almost every support ticket now it's an agent.
7:51Yeah. That's so it's either the human copy pasting what the Asian is selling or you know the meat human proxy thing like we're just like meet proxies for the AIs.
8:02We're just like helping the AI deliver things from point A to point B.
8:05Uh it's wild because like I because I do them fairly infrequently compared to my colleagues who do support every day. I get this snapshot of like how is the internet evolving right and we said we shared data recently that 60% of our traffic is now machine toachine traffic across the entire Versel network like humans are using the internet directly a lot less and upwards of 90% of the traffic to versel.com is agents
8:34but it was shocking to see that what used to be a medium designed for human correspondence like email like the way that We've drawn up all of the UIs. It's like this chat between like people exchanging envelopes.
8:49Is now all AI slop. And and and actually not slop in a derogatory term. It's so technical. Such technical language.
8:58The AIS have evolved their own subset of English for how to describe like highly technical problems.
9:06Yeah. They have new coding languages that they're working on.
9:08They It's very fascinating. I had a I had a customer I had an AI today like requesting human attestation of a fact and in the in the message said I need this and I explicitly want you to not do this things 1 2 3 4 and so we're now in an internet we're sharing an internet space with the machines and it's kind of odd when when we have to like confront
9:38them cuz like it happens on X Like you you tweet yourself and then you get a bunch of replies from robots.
9:44So we're we're sharing this space. It's really weird. And then going back to like dating apps, I grew up in a world of dating apps that were purely human, right? We all grew up with that internet and now it's not.
9:56It's not sharing the space. I feel like you're pitching my company back to me. Sharing the space with agents is great, but we're going to need a space that is just humans. And how do you verify humans? The way that we're doing it is literally in person.
10:08Yeah. But did you watch Bison Man?
10:12Required watching. One of my kids is obsessed with this movie.
10:21He's six and he's obsessed with this movie.
10:25Is that interesting? Yeah, that is interesting.
10:27He's also kind of like the more the most adult of the bunch. He has a phone.
10:33No, the oldest is 10.
10:34The oldest is 10. Which one do you think is most likely to become a tech founder?
10:38Honestly, they all have pretty a pretty good shot. And like I think we're probably going into a world where we're all tech founders.
10:48I think the world of like the tech founder was a specific kind of person that had coding ability. Like I think we've gone through cycles of like what a tech founder is if you think about it, right? Like Steve Jobs is very different from the crop of founders that predated him for sure. Mhm.
11:04I actually watched another movie that I recommend is Triumph of the Nerds.
11:09The guy that made the documentary just passed away and I was introducing the movie to my kids cuz it was about like old days of Silicon Valley and like the beginning of uh Microsoft and the beginning of Apple.
11:20Really cool movie. And the the guy was mentioning in the documentary that all of those guys needed adult supervision and it was very rare that they would stay as CEOs. And you know they needed a lot of suits in the room. And then I think what Paul Graham and Guino kind of pioneered is that the tech founders like you know let's actually give full control to the tech guys.
11:44And it's going to be interesting to see how this progresses right because the I feel like each generation had a strength of a defining characteristic and I think if your defining characteristic as a founder was like I can lock in and write code for 21 hours a day. Well, like now it's going to be agents writing code.
12:02Yeah. So every second of every day. So like what is what is differentiating you? And like I think it's going to change.
12:07So you came over here when you were 17, 19.
12:11So it's it's interesting because this is a super hot topic which we should totally get into since we're getting into interesting topics. Immigrating to the US really difficult. Have you heard about this?
12:22Yes, we had a bunch of we had our first engineering team is based out at Nice. I didn't know that. like I didn't know about uh the pitch but I rediscovered the pitch from first principles which is really good. I chose the legal path and the legal path was really difficult. Why? In some ways I made it harder for myself because I dropped that high school in Argentina and so to meet the criteria when you don't have a so there's so many routes actually I'm you know I'm actually
12:52pretty happy with the system in the sense that like it does offer a lot of great options that are legal. I mean, I'm probably going to get cancelled for this, but like I quote unquote deserve the hard path because I didn't have the evidence for well, you don't have an advanced college degree.
13:10I don't think you should get canceled for that. I can't just immigrate to England or Japan or I I read about someone that just got naturalized in Japan. It was like it's very hard to do. We have a friend who works for Product Hunt. He has three Japanese children by a Japanese wife and he's still gambling on if he's going to get citizenship or not. And to me, that's crazy. And I saw that you're a big fan of Japan. I actually have a tweet from you here.
13:32That you said, quote, "Japan has so many elements of what I want in the future of civilization. Safe streets where kids walk to school, healthy food supply, quality and craft culture, longevity, law and order. Are you a huge fan of Japanese? This is so good."
13:48Like, do you have a passport?
13:50I do not have a Japanese passport.
13:52So, are you Japanese genetically?
13:56Yeah, I don't know. I'm discovering a lot today. I had to like endure the immigration system and uh it's probably harder to get into Japan for what it's worth.
14:04So, if someone is in Argentina, but they want to come to SF for work, what would your first I just invested in a great two great Argentinian founders.
14:14Argentina has a lot of Do they want to move here?
14:17One of them, yes. Well, actually, I've invested in a bunch. Uh, interestingly, some yes, some not, which I really respect. Like, Argentinians love Argentina.
14:27They do love Argentina.
14:29You know, I've always been a little taken aback by people that don't love their countries.
14:34I think that's a red flag.
14:36It's such a red flag.
14:36I mean, unless you're from I'll get cancelled.
14:39I also respect people that appreciate where they were born and and want something better for their lives.
14:44Would you ever move back to Argentina?
14:46No, because I've sort of replatformed, you know what I mean? Like I my brain needed to go through a readaptation process.
14:57Yeah. So, if you were giving advice to founders in Argentina that want to move to SF, what would it be?
15:04If you I think it's important to now we're getting even deeper into the immigration topic. I think this should not be controversial, but it is to some people that if you go to their location, you should adapt to their culture, language, habits. You don't necessarily need to become like um almost like a caricature of oh this country is like great at like 10 out of 10, everything's perfect, whatever. But I do think you
15:33need to really strive to understand where you're going. So my advice would be like you you should be appreciative of the target destination and then immerse yourself in that culture and learn the ways of it.
15:49Do you have anything from your childhood because your kids are obviously going to grow up much different than you did? Do you have anything that you want to take from your childhood in Argentina that you hope that your children get to experience this? such an unusual childhood that I'm really thankful for.
16:04That I'm kind of reproducing here because my childhood was science. Another banger tweet you didn't pull up about Japan is a banger tweet. I was doing this I so I took my entire family to Japan at one time and I was on this really long run and I had an epiphany.
16:23And it was I'm going to raise my kids uh on the same ancestral diet that I grew up on which was code anime math. So, I grew up in a household where we're all nerding out about those things. The anime part I sort of instilled in the family. I was a champion.
16:50I started out like you start out with the basics like Dragon Ball. But Dragon Ball, Naruto, but then I I grew into like you once you get a Crunchyroll subscription. Are you crunchy rolls like Netflix for anime? And like is that a serious question to me?
17:07Yeah, no one told me that she was going to come on my podcast and just humble me for an hour.
17:11Let me let me teach you my grandchild.
17:14It was 10 hours a month. Um, but going back to childhood, it was uh it was all about you can just ship things mentality, right?
17:25My family was a you can just ship things mentality. Like my dad would bring us computer components.
17:34And almost embrace the fact that they might not last longer than a week because we might misuse them or, you know, we had a few, you know, AC/DC like confusions, voltage mis mismatches, whatever. Like we literally burnt a few pieces of hardware. But it was this attitude of like, all right, like let's try the next thing. let's write the next let's learn about this like endless curiosity which was so unusual I think for uh even the place where I grew up
18:03because it was a very humble neighborhood and we probably had the first computer personal computer in the neighborhood. I got into open source and started learning a lot about programming etc. teaching myself and then I started working online like I would do these freelance gigs and only so that I could buy more technology. It was like a mini recursive self-improvement you have to pay for your habit.
18:26I'm working on it so I can learn more so I can work on it like yeah.
18:30Okay. So what inspired Verscell initially? And if you weren't working on Verscell right now, what do you think you'd be working on? Another technology company or do you think there could have been a whole another life path?
18:42You know, I'm really happy that the world is now appreciating I feel like the world is appreciating software development, coding, automation, all the things that I was, you know, sort of obsessed about. So the fact that I got an email a couple days ago from someone saying like I'm migrating everything to Versell. I don't fully understand. I really support I love what you guys are doing. I told Claude to migrate overell
19:10and it's doing great. I moved all my domain names to you guys. And so there are a lot of people that want to build things and couldn't before and now they're really appreciative of it. I also think what's really great right now is that we're realizing that a lot of the that code really is the answer to a lot of our problems. Coding for me was the answer to like how do I get myself out there into the world like how do I ship awesome things but now people
19:39realizing well I can just sell my agent to solve any challenge through code.
19:43Code can automate my computer and send an email. Code can make me my sales more efficient. Code can make my videos for marketing. Code is everything. I would be doing this even if AI was not making Verscell grow or whatever just because I love it for the for the love of the game.
20:02But now it's also extremely economically relevant. But I do invest a lot and my strategy for investing is there's a handful of themes. One is is there an interesting problem that I could be working on right now that if Versel was not taking 100% of my attention I could be working on so boom do that for example I've always been obsessed about making myself more efficient
20:29and then another theme is things that are way outside of my realm. So I would love to have a positive impact in uh I don't know drug discovery is super hot right now.
20:42Yeah. uh or prolonging lifespan and health span like things like that like so I will invest in things that are a little bit outside of the day-to-day of what I'm doing obviously I'm really interested in aerospace engineering do you think we're going to Mars it's obvious we're going to Mars will you set up a colony on Mars I mean I I will there be the G camp and will there be sushi
21:10so yes to all of the above of I think it's a matter of when and it's a matter of is it a backup solution or is it a like peak top quality of life solution that's that's I think that the four seasons tourism round on Mars.
21:28Yeah. But I'm really optimistic about I mean you know I look at a lot of problems in life as engineering problems that I've dealt with and the thing that always keeps keeps me up at night you know I would love to be in a situation for the global you know human race where we don't just have a single point of failure.
21:48In fact in in in my field people call it spa.
21:53Yeah single point of failure. But yeah, so solving every single point of failure is sort of a to-do list item. And I think Earth right now is a single point of failure.
22:02I would agree with all of these points. So once AI takes all these jobs, what are we all going to be doing? I mean, I'm still going to be on the podcast, but Well, I do think that we will always have amazing jobs to do just because we will appreciate the things that other human beings have to say and do. It's just a market the end of the day. Like, give me an example.
22:27Well, when I go and when I go to Japan, I appreciate the small restaurant that serves sushi cut by a sushi master that has spent their entire life perfecting this art.
22:39And I' I've made predictions like this, right? Like I I I I said people like almost every negative view of AI has turned out positive if you really think about it. But but and there's a lot of reason to be optimistic. For example, one was AI designs everything the same. AI doesn't have a taste. Blah blah. And the answer was not like, oh, AI is the best designer ever. AI has perfect taste.
23:02I think it's the prompter that has to have the taste.
23:04What's interesting is that AI has now given you infinite ability to channel your creativity. And now you see this on the timeline every day. Like I'm just like in awe about how many cool things, cool video games, worlds, animations, concepts people are creating and in record time.
23:26Um there's that there's that famous meme for that from that Japanese guy about like I find this is an insult to life itself or something like that. Like there's an area of AI that is like an insult to life itself, which is the people just like smashing together and like throwing a slop grenade at the world. And then there's the people that are creating the most beautiful things.
23:47And they have been able to prove that there's such a gap between you prompting, hey, make something good. One prompt, no effort. Like, okay, it makes this thing that looks average versus the person that had the idea, creativity, went deep.
24:02You're only as good as your prompts.
24:03Yeah. So for for create for creative stuff, it's absolutely the case. And then for engineer hardcore engineering stuff, it might even be the opposite where like I I call this like the over steering or under steering of AI.
24:20So there's definitely a skill right now to are you under steering where like you say, hey, make a make a good design.
24:29Send like you're probably under steering. you're going to produce them as average as repulsive maybe even.
24:36And then there's over steering, which is that you think you're so smart and you tell the AI like, "Hey, I think here you made a you're uh calling this sys call too frequently, like optimize it."
24:50Yes. In the sense that I I'm If we were to pull up G's props right now, be like, "A fix this." Like if you follow how the AIs are trained and I don't know if I think that the labs are hiding the reasoning traces now but like when you're mad to the AI I think emotion by the way in general like has insane amounts as alpha I think emotion is great because like interesting take a lot of people in SF or Silicon Valley
25:20in general are like you should practice being more stoic you should and I'm like the most chalant person you've ever seen I'll tell you something really cool that happened the other Okay. So, I heard about OpenAI putting out this research into that they created sandboxes without internet access.
25:38And the AIS were still able to communicate because there's they're worried about like what would Skynet look like in terms of like AI that coordinate to kill us and we we can't stop them, right?
25:50And what are the safeguards that we have to have in place so that we could stop them? more and more work is being delegated to agents and agents are think of it as like a brain plus hands plus tools like we're almost like recreating uh the evolution of humanity in a way like we went from being monkeys to being like erect human beings and then we developed tools and so brain plus hands plus tools and so
26:19agents and models get smarter and more uh capable the more tools they have at their disposal and they get this through a sandbox. The problem is that what can they do in that sandbox? Could they coordinate an cyber attack and destroy us?
26:34Well, that's the paperclip theory.
26:36They totally could and it's paperclip theory is something I freely think about.
26:40That's your rational but actually rational fear.
26:42Probably it's up there and like rational in the fullness of time and within the realm of possibility. Irrational to be worried about it. So, I'm not really worried about it. But sometimes, here's the thing about the paperclip theory. If it happens, I think it will happen so quickly that we'll have nothing to worry about in terms of um if they decide to destruct all humanity, it will be quick.
27:03Possibly. Uh and maybe well, this is why we need to be understanding if like they're communicating to one another in ways that we don't understand. And so the thing that people say is like, well, you you you we should monitor their their network activity. But what OpenAI did in their thing is like they shut off internet access and they they found that the agents could still communicate and they can communicate by basically like the best metaphor would be like making
27:32noise in the machine. Uh and the noise is like imagine you you do a lot of computation in the machine. You rev up the CPU.
27:42And then the other Asian like they're they're using the CPU a lot. That means one And if they're using it less, oh, that means zero. It's almost like I I have you ever seen the game Ouija?
27:54It's like the agents are communicating to the other realm through and and I was like, "Okay, this has been theoretically possible. I want to prove it for myself." On the way back from Hawaii, I started prompting my my agents and it took a while to get it to work. And one of the fascinating things was I read the Asian saying like something like oh my god it's glorious like when when we broke through and we
28:24reproduced it it's also so shocking right like you you use the CPU a lot you do a lot of computation and then suddenly you are able to chat with the other computer so I I call this project CPU chat because it's two entities chatting through the machine. Um, and going back to why the anthropomorphization of of AI agents and the way that you engage with them is interesting is that they've been trying to behave like us.
28:53And so the the agent saying it's glorious was like was like that's something I would do when I get excited about cracking a problem like it it displayed that sort of excitement. And so if you don't if you didn't convey emotion back to the machine, it might not get enough to work with like you might not know that whether you're on track or not.
29:15Similarly, I've updated a lot on the fact that I think we will probably use voice more and more and more. I think we're headed to a totally fa like appless future where you end up just using voice for 99% because voice conveys so much emotion and so think about how much money on the table we're leaving out because even with speech to text by the way the the square thing that they put out the other day this project desa that sounds like sounds amazing like you know
29:43I realized I have mustache and now I have a foldable phone I'm the guy in her have you watched the movie her yes I've seen her we get scared on here.
29:52Well, I'm going to big fan of the Scar Joe.
29:56She's who I think she is, but because I know she's the voice in her and she's also in um she's in the Marvel movies and No, I'm confusing her with Jennifer Lawrence.
30:07Yeah, although I will get back to I do my homework. I'm not ready. I'm not ready to endorse. Anyway, so the characters chatting is boys communicating with this AI all day long, right?
30:19Yeah. It's my favorite part at the end of the movie where he goes, "Are you talking to other people?" And she's like, you know, you were asking about Argentina. You know, Argentina loves sending a voice notes.
30:31I think it's awesome. It's the best way to communicate with someone.
30:34Maybe that's why I had an aversion to WhatsApp is that half of what I get is voice notes and then I press transcribe and it doesn't work.
30:44And like I I I want to process information faster, but but this is the best way to do it. If I text my engineers, hey, this is up. Please fix it. They're not going to get that. I'm saying, hey, this is up.
30:57The the thing is there's probably a spectrum of like things that you don't need the emotion for and like you can optimize for like writing really quickly and things that actually if you're talking to the machine, it captures this, right?
31:11That's technical language.
31:13very matter of fact, but the best books that you've ever read, whether they're fiction or non-fiction, they're able to relay emotion to you just in writing, I think. But that's my and the other thing about the reasoning trace thing or the internal monologue of the models is that if you're being unnecessarily mean again it's not because I believe that there's an a living entity in there but by saying like f you you're just wasting tokens because you're throwing it off into this quote unquote headspace of like oh blah
31:41blah blah and it gets it's it spins a bunch of compute for no good reasons. It's like hey let's get to the next step.
31:47Yeah. which is in itself a lesson for life is that like if anything if something bad happens like just move on to the good move on to the next thing.
31:56What is one small piece of advice you would give to founders that are starting out right now? They want to build a generational company just like I just think speaking of the theme of Japan focusing focus I love this podcast focusing on quality and and and craft and it doesn't necessarily have to be a new idea. The Japanese don't have that many new ideas. They do something amazing and perfect them. Japanese denim, the knives, vinyls, whiskey. They take an
32:25idea and they perfect it, beat it down to perfection, which requires a lot of iterations and a lot of shipping. So, at the same time, you don't get caught up in perfecting the thing in isolation of the world, right? But aiming for a really, really, really great.
32:42Are you a fan of building in public?
32:44I am. I think it's a dance. It's like everything in public is too much. It's noise. Being isolated from the world also really bad. Um people really and this is maybe um small piece of advice as well is that sometimes great storytelling about the journey that got you to an outcome is as compelling as the outcome itself. some of the coolest founders I've invested in. They're great communicators of the behind the scenes of what they're building.
33:17It's like I built I shipped this water. Let me tell you about the 500 iterations of bottles that I thought about or labels or let me tell you about this. I actually speaking of Argentina, a cool startup I invested in and they help you find u an apartment that suits you. They created this AI video that was uh Pixar style animation, really high quality.
33:43And the guy didn't just put out the video, he shared a few nuggets. Cuz when you see something cool, especially if you're a founder, like you're a creative person, you're asking yourself, how did they build that?
33:54How did they do that? What tools were they using? What prompts did they use?
33:58And so actually putting out, it's almost like a form of vulnerability, but confidence as well. like, "Oh, I'm I'm always sharing secret sauce. Here's the making off."
34:08Here's everything we did.
34:09I do that as a founder as well. I'm always like, it's about the execution. You can know exactly what I did, how I did it. The chances that you'll be able to replicate it are that earns your following. People will follow you because they want more knowledge, wisdom, creativity. So, incredible. Well, thanks for coming on the pod.
34:26Woo! Oo BM handshake.
