0:00Get in. We're rebuilding the whole freaking internet. Coding is a misnomer. Everything is code. A slide deck is code. A document is code. Excel spreadsheets is code. If I DM you, it probably meant that my agent couldn't figure it out. No one at Versel has the right to block things. The spies must flow. The tokens must flow. The products have to be shipped. You don't get to relax. I'm any visa. Send me the email.
0:24And when I get time to review it, your product goes out. I refuse to have an AI as a friend. Human empathy and emotion and connection is ours. Overrated sort of advice, ambition to be honest.
0:38You have five kids, a sixth one on the way. You're very obsessed with fitness.
0:43You're at the gym every morning. Where is all this energy coming from?
0:46You know, I remember my early days in ASA before I was married. I think the level of discipline that I had my entire life was like so well curated for learning and working it was Monday through Monday. The number of hours put on top of that I think I joke like 10,000 hours 996 that's rookie numbers. What are we talking about? For the last decade if you built on the internet you probably touch something Guar made.
1:12Nex.js JS is the most popular React framework in the world and Verscel, his $9.3 billion company with more than $500 million of revenue run rate, powers the front end for OpenAI, Stripe, and Nike.
1:25A kid from Argentina who became one of the great infrastructure builders of the modern web. Now he's doing something even bigger, giving the power of building to everyone. With Vzero, you describe what you want in plain English and working software appears. But AI is not just changing who builds software.
1:44It's changing how companies get built and how society will function. Today we get into what happens to talent, to companies, and to builders when everyone can build. Knuckle up, GMO, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. So in September 2024, after Paul Graham's founder mode essay, you put out your own idea, which is recursive founder mode. Uh and your main point if I understood it correctly was that founder mode doesn't scale.
2:13Recursive founder mode is where it needs to be. What do you mean by recursive founder mode? Yeah, Brazil has been in this journey towards becoming a multi-product organization. So we started out hosting frontends mostly front-end sites and web applications and then we started evolving into hosting backends hosting agents helping people with the whole software development life cycle or we could call like the agentic software development life cycle and so in this journey I've had to expand the
2:42product portfolio grow the team and I totally identified with the idea of founder mode because you need someone that has this pioneering spirit it like break down tape, push through, be the voice of the customer all the time and just feel extreme pride over everything, every detail, like make sure everything is perfect. But clearly it doesn't scale, especially as you think about an organization that's working on multiple
3:10products, multiple surfaces, millions of customers. And looking back on things that have worked really well for us, and by this I mean people come to me and they're like, "Man, how is this thing so good?" Like yesterday, someone asked me, "Why is the AISDK so cool? How do they communicate so well on X? Why does everything seem to be so nicely polished?" Immediately my mind went to the founder of this project, Lars Grahaml, who for me embodies that
3:40because he's an entrepreneur at heart.
3:42He joined Verscell and he was a seasoned engineer and he came in with a very strong point of view of the world. He'd been working on this developer experience for making um basically model agnostic applications in Typescript. And so when he joined Verscell, I got a founder, a visionary and someone that if given the right company setting can like again blast through walls and cut down tape and whatnot. The things that you would want a founder CEO to do. He's
4:12almost like the CEO of his own product.
4:14And over the years, we've been very fortunate to identify a handful of these people that what I've seen is that these are the people you want as you're scaling your company. You know, the co found can only go so far. You kind of want to build the machine that builds the machine. You know, software factories are in vogue these days. And I I think of it as like how do I set up this recursive software factory? I need this, you know, managers of these factories within the company. We've done
4:42it for uh Fluid Compute. Uh we we acquired a one-man company, a guy that had this like he was like totally full stack. His name is Tom Leonard, and he he would take care of the marketing, the coms, the product design, and he would write this low-level Rustbased runtime.
5:00It's like, oh, this could be a great person to add to our fluid compute offering. I think the thing that resonated a lot with that essay, I mean it went it exploded on Twitter that day over the weekend and in the weeks to come was that the founder has to go deep in what matters. The founder has to be in the weeds of everything. How do you now ensure in this model that you're talking about like the unit of ownership is at this founder of that product level. What do they own? Where do you go deep versus where do you force yourself to stay out so that somebody else feels
5:29that they have the flexibility? Yeah, I think what I can contribute is I set up the overall organizational framework, the values of the company. Obviously, my executive team and I decide on like, you know, what are the KPIs, targets, north stars, but you need to create these pools of autonomy within the because the best people in the world, they could be starting companies, they could be viating 10 million AR businesses and deploying them on for sale. And so, you really have to create this pockets of
5:58autonomy. And so these people I think have control over uh or input into and influence into the messaging the marketing and obviously using a platform under them namely the Verscell platform. A lot of people actually want to come to build products out of Verscell because they know that they get to use Verscell.
6:14So funny enough a lot of our new products are completely bootstrapped on top of the Verscell infrastructure. And so it's a little bit like you know we we have millions of companies building on Verscell and now we also have like companies within Verscell. Does that autonomy extend to them deciding who to hire or even ship against your judgment?
6:35So this is a good example is that you know I I give enough rope to see like you know people pleasantly surprise me all the time with their innovations, discoveries, ways to communicate their customer obsession, right? Like I expect people to go out and talk to customers.
6:51So you're asking what is a defining characteristic of this of this founder mode thing? At the end of the day, we're here to ship. We're here to drive urgency. We're here to make customers happy. So I for me like my love language is seeing someone within the company take full ownership of the end to end business and I think AI is going to force people into this because if you thought your job your job was like a very narrow thing like I write code in
7:20Rust. Well, models can also do that very well now. And so you have to you have to expand your scope in this world. Are you as CEO the chief quality officer or chief taste officer?
7:32I I joke internally a lot like I do a lot of QA and I put a lot of input into the autonomous systems of quality assurance. So my focus has really been into and I think this is what should be going through everyone's minds is like how do I identify myself? How do I identify my skills? No pun intended. You know, one of the big ecosystem contributions that Versell has made recently is skills.sh, which is this massive repository of skills. We
8:02invented it because we invented Nex.js and obviously we have like a lot of the knowhow of the world and how to build React applications. Those people work at Brazil. And my challenge was how can I grab any customer in the world no matter how technative maybe they they're a healthcare company or financial services. How can I even the playing field? How can I make sure that their next code is as good as my NexJS code?
8:29Enter AI skills. So we created this repository where we said by the way it was so funny when we put that out people were like aren't you just open sourcing all of your knowhow? Is that allowed? Is that like are you just are you out of your mind? And this is one of the moments where like founder mode is so important because my conviction is our value is the entire Versell platform and the trust that we get from customers when we give them when we open source and give away things like this. So
8:58skills is where you know I'm thinking a lot okay how can I if I have a quality assurance skill today I was chatting with one of our content engineers. I've spent a lot of time trying to perfect the way that I communicate succinctly with people. The reason that I love X, like Naval has said many times, is it's wonderful that it limits you to 280 characters. He and I actually were pretty outspoken at the time, like why
9:25do you even go to 280? Why stay at 140, right? Because it's this amazing, you know, compression and and and creative constraint that helps you. And so I put a lot of my work over the years in like how can I communicate effectively with customers? And I coach a lot of folks when they join Versell. You're not here to just ship technology into the void. You're here to help with storytelling.
9:50You're not here to just launch. You also need to land. People need to understand the thing that you're working on. And and so nowadays I'm thinking, all right, I've learned all of these things. How can I transfer that to the internal versell agent that helps this factory continue to produce highquality products, delight and accelerate the business? How do you then recruit for that talent? Like let's talk about that.
10:18What are you looking for? What is the DNA you're looking for founders abroad?
10:22Like are there skills you're looking for in interviews?
10:25Honestly, the the requirements are changing weekly, right? And so what I look for a lot these days is do you have this mindset? First of all, some of the world still debates whether AI is here to stay or not. You know, there's levels. Some people are still stuck in like, well, agents can only do a few things. And some people are like, no, I'm actually using agents to superpower my work and to ship great things. I still, you know, have this bias of like no matter what the technology is, the
10:53implementation detail, I look for people that can ship great things.
10:58There is an element of proof of work that I look for when I recruit or when I reach out to people. But there's also this futurebased mindset like are you able to extrapolate and position yourself in the future?
11:15Where are things headed 6 months from now, 12 months from now? What are the requirements going to be? Because we are in the middle of an exponential. So I can have people that, you know, show me like, oh yeah, the, you know, I built this awesome developer platform at, I don't know, Uber, Lyft, or whatever. And then it's like, okay, can you actually show me how that becomes self-actualizing? What would you do today? What what are you going to ship next week? That kind of thing.
11:41Has your own interviewing changed in the world of AI?
11:45Yeah. Give us examples because this is the multi-billion dollar question for all of us. I ask people to build. First of all, you know, you can't be of two minds. I I I either go on X and say like everybody can build and use Vzero and like Versell plugin and whatever and like you can ship immediately and I also have to eat my own dog food. So I actually have that expectation like I ask people to build stuff during the interview process.
12:07During the interview process and everybody by the way they can choose it or you give them something.
12:12Yeah. I I some people just don't have a strong opinion on what to use. So they they take our recommendation, you know. Funny enough, we call this work prompts.
12:21It's almost like we're we're not hiring agents per se, but our expectation is that hey, here's a work prompt. What can you what can you do? Depending on the role, I think, you know, it might be something that we we have the expectation that you just b code something and like you produce an output, an artifact and how you talk through it. And I also always look for what is your perception of the details and what interesting side quests did you take. I've asked people to build certain
12:49things and they come back with really clever ideas for the platform itself.
12:55They can tell me what features are missing or where they found problems or where they got stuck. I had an awesome experience yesterday because someone delivered this beautiful output but she told me well at this point I wasted an hour on this thing that's an opportunity for us to fix. So she kind of came in with a point of view on what she wants to join to improve about the company and the platform. So I think the level of transparency and the availability of
13:24information today is unprecedented. Do you go go through this with even non-technical hires? So, marketing, sales, customers, some somebody who's the chief customer officer, all of that.
13:34My my marketing team, they all have to the future is them building agents that produce a marketing artifacts. A common problem between in marketing organizations is can I beg, borrow and steal engineering resources or agency resources so that it can ship an idea into the world. That probably doesn't exist ever because you have the platform, you have the agents and because you're expected to create that
14:04factory. You're not here to like file in Jira tickets. Hey, can someone help me with this like poster? this I I need to host a dinner with prospects. Can you help me with the creatives? No. Like you solve that problem. And that's I think that's where the bias towards founder mode comes is I'm hiring people that can solve problems.
14:25Solve problems. You know, I have a I have 99 problems. Like if you're coming to me to like add to the problems list like I'm So, but how have you scaled this in recruiting? So, how many people are you today now?
14:39800. So I presume there's recruiting happening at Vasil now that doesn't touch you. Meaning you are not part of every hire. Every hire.
14:48You meet every hire.
14:48We have agents. I don't meet every hire but we have agents that can be posted on the progress of all of the interview loops. We've uh put in a lot of my requirements into the different prompts that summarize the candidates. I spend a lot of time reviewing their work, reviewing who they are, you know, going through their profile, the things that they've created. I ask questions sometimes. I ask to like have almost like an asynchronous conversation like we care a lot about candidate experience even if we don't hire you like we think
15:17of you as as a customer. So you know we we want to balance moving really quickly but also you know asking asking some questions or asking for revisions on some of the work that gets presented. I take this decisions like very seriously because hopefully people understand that this is a long-term project. This kind of work takes generations. So I take each hire so seriously because I'm going to invest in you and because you expect
15:47I expect you to stick around for a decade.
15:48In our earlier conversation, we just said you're kind of the chief quality officer. It sounds like you're also the chief talent officer at the company.
15:55It's all quality, right? We own the highest quality people we inv but it sounds like you're very involved in every single hire even to this date and that's also a point of leverage right so I can you know the way that I think about it is I can give a lot of consistent product feedback and in fact I embrace the fact we have one of our values is iterative greatness ITG no one at Verscell has a right to veto sorry to block things I've been joking a lot about this Dune reference the spies
16:24must flow the tokens must flow the out the the products have to be shipped. Customers need help. No one is here to say hold the production lines. Only security can do that. And the the occasional executive saying like but that's a veto most of the time. That's a veto which means that the onus is on you to veto.
16:47You don't get to relax. I I'm any visa. Send me the email and when I get time to like review it, your product goes out.
16:56And so we have very very few and very carefully designed choke points. And so that's where we introduce friction. But um you know multi our CTO and I spend a lot of time reviewing this machinery because at the end of the day by the way it's all engineering. One of my banger tweets recently was everything is code. A slide deck is code. A document is code. The reason that coding agents are driving most we have this data from the AI gateway. Most of the
17:26token volume in the world is coming from coding agents. Coding is a misnomer.
17:30Everything you do Excel is spreadsheets is code. It's just that it was so deceptive because we used to drag and drop columns and do the math and perhaps do like do all this and we didn't think it was code but it's actually a series of tool calls and a little Python script. Everything is code, right? And so you can think of the streamlining of your organization and its operations and the agents that you design. You can apply that engineering mindset to it.
17:54And so Malta and I were always obsessed with where are the choke points, where's the where what is our throughput. We study we ask our agents, let's study the change log rate, meaning how frequently are we communicating product improvements to customers. And so this is kind of how we keep that pace and keep the quality up. So you know everything you're saying there then relies on exceptional people founder mode type people themselves but in a
18:24world where open AI and anthropic are throwing ridiculous packages seed funding is everywhere I'm saying that as a VC why if a founder can build things that they want to see in the world over a weekend and then distribute why should they stay at versel why not go out and do their own thing founders are also people that have long-term commitments and long-term visions I see this like revolving door between like Google and OAN and Anthropic and I'm like you know that
18:52doesn't look good for anybody. So you're saying that the guy has spent 9 months left and now he's over at this other thing and I think the world is beginning to actualize because Dario was saying I'm a little worried that people are money. like yeah and that's the problem right and and I think one of the antidotes to this is to invest in people that are not necessarily like this like they have like this big fame and Twitter followers and whatever you can get there you know people have joined for sale and
19:20have built careers like that but um it's also about investing in the people that have high slope and I spend a lot of my time identifying and investing in people that are willing to obviously just it takes an insane amount work and again the the founder mentality comes there too like you have to be ready to like work really freaking hard and and this is something I'm you know over the years I become more and more explicit to people I I you know in our interview process I'm very explicit now this is
19:49going to take at least a decade and we're going to work insane hours and we're going to have a lot of fun so there's also the grind slab culture whatever and and it's fun you have to calibrate for some people like myself find this really on let's say somebody is a high slow person you've invested a lot in them 3 years in 4 years in so not 9 months but 4 years in they come to you and say game I need to leave I I'm compelled by this idea like I want to start a company what happens yeah I'm supportive of people starting companies
20:19I try to sus it out also in the beginning like sometimes I can tell like this is a person's like anxious like I was never a good employee in the sense that I actually I delivered a lot of value for for the company that I worked for very quickly Okay. But I'm a person that is just not meant to work well in sort of a hierarchical structure and whatever. There are people that actually satisfy that itch. Going back to like the recursive finder mode, they satisfy that itch within Versel. And I get this feedback from people. I got someone
20:49DMing me the other day saying like this person was an entrepreneur in the past life and it was like I just love what you guys have been able to create for me. Uh which is like I almost designed my perfect life within Versel. The reason that I'm selective and the reason that I spend a lot of time in the interviewing process is that you want you don't want jitter in your organization.
21:10Yeah. But partly my question was that can recursive founder mode survive in an era where shipping is fast and seed money is everywhere. It could arguably do better. I explain why. So, one of our quote unquote founders or product leads, the the product that he's running within Versel, he kind of tried to build it before and it didn't work unless it was part of a broader platform. And this has been true for a few of the acquisitions that we've made that have been really
21:39successful where you say, I have this awesome idea and maybe it doesn't do quite as well unless it gets presented as part of a broader platform. And this is overall a strong thesis that I that I have around the future of software. I don't subscribe to the idea that there there's a complete SAS apocalypse coming and whatnot. But what is true is that let's say that you just close a deal with a very large marketing agency. What they're moving from is they used to buy
22:07software for bespoke needs that they have. Now they've moved into a world where their IP becomes the agents and internal tools that they're building and this is a kind of transition from SAS to build your own and it is quite competitive because the rigid static software off the shelf is nowhere as near as good as the one that they're coding and deploying over cell. in a past life they could have never thought
22:35about like what like I'm gonna create a competitive with an Adobe product just for my needs is kind of a crazy thought right and yet I'm hearing about it every single day and what it's doing is it's making them more efficient is adding to their IP and it's simplifying their life because they went from procuring 10 or 20 pieces of software to just procuring one platform and I do think that platforms are going to do extraordinarily well in this world Maybe
23:03some of the bespoke pieces of software that you could put into that platform do not survive outside of it and that's more of a reason for someone to come and say hey another example our feature flags offering the entrepreneur that built that outside of her cell he was having some decent traction but can you really come in like people expect this to be part of a broader offering so now he's he has one of our fastest growing products out of her cell and he's having a fantastic time because he's found a
23:30delivery he's found channel. He's found distribution, which is to your point something that will be a bit of a choke point as software becomes easier to make.
23:41One theme that I consistently read as I was preparing for this was that there's two two things that pull pull at each other. I think one is that this culture of a trade to greatness, it seems like there's a lot of urgency at Versel. On the other side, you're obsessed with taste. Do you see them pulling at each other or you think no it's fine in a naive way? Yes. Um because are you going to ship slop and then you iterate to greatness? I will say part of the
24:10hiring process, part of the culture, part of the platform that we give you sets the floor really high. So let me give you another example of a fantastic quote unquote founder within Verscell.
24:21Shhatzenne. This gentleman created the world's most popular UI component framework. When you ask an AI, build me an application, nine times out of 10, he uses Shatzian, which incidentally is also his his online nickname. What Shadsen did is he invented a component system that raised the floor of literally the entire internet. This sidebar that he gives you, beautiful and extensible. the button, the dropdown,
24:51even the AI components, the reasoning bar and the shimmering text and all of this stuff off the shelf, beautiful within Verscell, we extended this component system into the Verscell Guist component system. So, it's kind of hard to come into Verscell, be competent, be a high agency individual, have access to all these primitives, and then like ship a POS into the world. And so I think the platform itself, Verscell is like a
25:20recursive self-improvement machine, right? The platform itself is constantly raising the floor. The agents, our design engineering team right now, I'm extremely excited about this. They were like, "Design engineering always weighs in on polish, the delight, the surprising details in the customer journey." But they know that to scale themselves, we can't just keep hiring a billion design engineers.
25:44And so now right now they're working on the agent that gives you that review that incorporates a lot of like to your point about taste. It incorporates taste. I think people sometimes create this false dichotomy between AI and taste. You know what's tasteless is grabbing the model and having it output as it is. That's literally how you end up with purple gradients and highly separated uppercase text and a little green dot that says online out of the blue. Meta announced their new model
26:13today and you know what else they did?
26:15They announced the skills. So what one of the skills is I think they call it like the dlopifying or the anti-slop skill. It literally tells the model to like not be itself.
26:27Don't do this, don't do this, don't do this. I think every company needs to take this very very seriously because you can take a lot of that taste that you have institutional best practices etc and turning them into skills and agents that will give you massive massive upside. Let's shift towards the heart of what's happening in the world today with AI. Uh let's start with engineering. How should engineers think of what's happening to their profession?
26:52And it probably is a big identity shift to go from I'm coding 24 by7. I'm obsessed with it. I love this craft of building to code gen.
27:01I have a lot of thoughts. Look, it's happened several times in my career. The gatekeeping of what is coding has happened many times. The first time I felt that was I knew that JavaScript was a faster way to ship and build software.
27:18Why? Because it sat on top of the web platform. And so shipping a website with JavaScript was infinitely faster than shipping a desktop application. The gatekeeping coping at the time was like JavaScript is a toy language. That's a joke. I have my Windows GTK QD C++ codebase for desktop applications. What are you doing with that? Get off my lawn. Then JavaScript started powering some of the best experiences on the
27:47planet. Gmail was made possible because it was a JavaScript heavy application that moved desktop into the web browser.
27:57And so there's been this disruptions to the industry non-stop where you had to self-actualize. If you were the grumpy gray beard gatekeeping, I only do desktop software, you missed the web, you missed mobile. This happened with data centers. Oh, I'm the data center guy. I know how to rack hardware. and what is this AWS thing and get off my lawn and so you missed cloud. And so for me, I've taught my this skill. My dad
28:25also has this mindset. So if like if it's new, we're we're kind of into it.
28:30Doesn't mean like we go all in. We are open-minded. I bought Bitcoin. I mined Bitcoin as soon as it came out and I try things constantly. So I I think this has helped me in my life keep up with the changes that you can take a fork on the road. It's like the fork in the road meme is like you either have this identity crisis or you you leap into the next platform and the next big opportunity in your life. And I think happened with AI autocomp completion and
28:58copilot. I was like my god this is the second coming of Jesus and people were like no no no it's junk. And then it happened with JPT and then it happened with agents and it's going to keep happening.
29:07But what's the new engineering skill then in today's world?
29:10So there's a meta game here. My best engineers have been the ones that adopted these tools the fastest. They developed an understanding of them that's deeper than the average. So there's a parallel here. If I ask a model, build me a site, I get purple.
29:29And most people that are in the know can tell right away like this. It's like the M dash and the JPT speak, right? The same happens with engineering. Like if you just say like fix it, make no mistakes, you can only go so far. And so there's a meta game and a meta skill of how good are you deploying this. The ultimate meta skill that I think is the next evolution of software companies is that you're building the factory that produces software. And so I think what's I can objectively look at our data and
29:58I've seen the acceleration of delivery correlated with the acceleration of revenue. And why is that happening is because we're leaning into this shift of I work on the output to I work on the machine that produces the output.
30:13It's a recursive founder taken to agents is the technification of recursive 100%. In fact, funny enough, this is hilarious. One of my uh poster childs of uh founder mode is literally turning the AISDK repository for the world to see into a software factory. Meaning you're going to be able to report an issue and 99% of the work is going to be solved automatically or so a lot of people said
30:41with AI SDK how are you going to keep up with the model changes? It's like, well, first of all, if AI is super intelligent, I can have AI reflect on what is the new capability and then add it automatically to AI SDK. That was kind of a dream a year ago. Now it's reality. Any customer report or any advancement in the underlying models can automatically get typified and then released. But are you finding then accordingly you know I I I actually have
31:10discussed this with many people at AI companies that are you finding that product people are becoming more capable now because it's about what to build or engineers who can be yeah where is this going yeah Lee Robinson wrote a great post I think he called it like the rise of the product engineer and I think that's the spoton you know I see it a lot in in Silicon Valley perhaps it's not yet as widespread but it's a duality of knowing, you know, product management
31:40skills and thinking about your P&L and thinking about your customers and thinking about their case studies and thinking about expansion and thinking about retention and also thinking about the engineering of it. And you know when I say stuff like this it does sound a bit like science fiction or alchemy like oh wait you have so you have an autonomous software factory produced by someone that is this unicorn product designer engineer but we're kind of getting there right and I think again that goes back to like why the future is
32:10going to be very founder centric flatter organizations fast information flows higher ownership and um and transparency you know When you were 17, being able to build was rare and you showed your exceptionality to the world by building on open source, distributing it. Today, you can build with AI, you can distribute on X or hack on you. So, how does a new how does a 17year-old today show that they are exceptional to the
32:38world? I think at least for me, I've spiked in not just the ability to write the software, but try and go a few steps further. Anyone can build software but some people are able to communicate the value of that software better. Some people are able to get customers and then develop from there. So I can obviously post and say here's my technology. So you have to think about
33:07what is the delta between me and all of my competitors. There's a handful of people that I follow that I've even run small businesses, but I follow them because of I'm attracted to their storytelling ability. I recently invited every Friday we do a fireside chat with the company and I invited an an indie maker, his name is Mark Lou. And I actually started asking him like, "Walk us through your process. Tell us how you design a landing page, how you think
33:35about your call to actions, how you think about correlating visitors and revenue." So his mind is this sort of like full stack AI assisted engineer and business builder. And so I think that represents a lot of the ethos that we all have to have especially in this world to your point. And so I think it's not going to be enough. Maybe I had some alpha back then because I was writing the code and I could publish it and then I could get some GitHub stars. That today feels much more like a baseline. I would have to go further. In fact, I'll
34:04tell you something that was really cool.
34:05So when I launched socket, one of my open source projects, Microsoft started using it for a very cool product, Microsoft 365. When it was born, they took the Socket AO protocol and so AO client and they embedded it into their tool. And looking back, that could have been an amazing story to tell. I I just kind of I don't know. I kind of let it slide. I took it for granted. Maybe because I was having so much success with just the code and the product alone. Today I would be spending like a lot more time with my customers talking
34:34about them. And this is the other realization that I had. Open source is starting blurring the lines with businesses and startups. Like it used to be that you just presented your project.
34:46You didn't even care that much about the name. You didn't care that it had a logo, a website. And so the bar just kept getting higher and higher and higher. uh and I would expect today like I talked to 15 17 year olds who are building businesses creating revenue breakthroughs. I I still think you know the reality is models can only do this much if you have a very compelling thing that you've been able to do with the models that it didn't occur to other people or you've pushed them. Sometimes
35:16there is actually meta alpha where you educating the world on how different models are better or how they disagree or how combined they produce better results. That's what's attracting a lot of people to our AI gateway. It's no longer a game of just one model and it might be a game of efficiency as well.
35:38It might be that you are able to produce at much lower cost. So I I still think there's alpha everywhere, but again the game is fundamentally different. There's a theoretical possibility already today that everybody's a builder and everybody can do more to automate and 10x themselves. But when I talk to CEOs, they're seeing a huge spectrum even in their own organizations around like is every marketer 10xing themselves? Is every finance person 10xing themselves?
36:05No. they they're finding that of course engineering is deeper but like there's top 5% people in every organization even in AI organizations that are really 10xing themselves and 95% are still lagging two questions there one is are you finding that versel maybe not because of the technical nature but I'm curious and second is how much of that is just a cultural upheaval that every company has to go through because the 5% the delta between the top 5% and the ne next 95 has multiplied
36:33no this is real even at versel Well, so here's how we're solving this. So what we noticed is most organizations said in order to superpower my organization with AI, I'll give everybody a clot subscription. And then the divergence started. You have this prompt library and you follow route G on X and you have skills and whatever. And that other person just like prompts, clocks in, clocks out. And so how do I raise the
37:00floor? How do I make everyone build on a platform?
37:05So maybe we didn't have this problem as drastically as some of the anecdotes that I've heard. Literally, I heard from one of our customers that they invite AI CEOs to do fireside chats to inspire the organization how to use agents because people don't even use them and so they want to hear the success stories and things like that. Maybe they're skeptical. I don't know. But what we did is we created an internal agent that is in a self-improvement loop.
37:33This is the one you announced four days ago.
37:35Yeah. So I told the story because what we announced is Eve. We announced the framework of how you can build an agent to run your organization and our own internal agent is called V. And so instead of having people all over the place go to Chachib over here and go to Claude over there, they go to V. And this is to us a culmination on a lot of like scars, lessons learned, trial and error. At the end of the day, for an
38:04agent to be successful, it has to be like the iPhone. There's just one place to go. I can call, I can text, I can play video games. I can do anything with this thing. But I just know I take it out of my pocket. One interface. That's the future of agents. We internally, we used to call this the omni agent project. We want to have one front door so that everyone in the company when you don't know something when you want a job to be automated when you have a question about the business when you have a
38:32question about a customer or even when you want something automated you can go to V and under the hood V has a collection of agents applications capabilities crucially skills and a team and a team that maintains it. what you just described, I believe in it. But at the same time, you earlier said you don't believe it's the end of SAS. Like, but why will somebody log into a CRM?
38:56Why will somebody log into a Zenesk?
38:58I'll always talk to V.
38:59Okay. So, great question. So for example, I literally just uh approved some spend for a sales and marketing platform today that plugs into V and yesterday gave feedback to one of my colleagues that the one of our content solutions it takes too long because it was not designed for agent interoperability.
39:17So I'm literally reconfiguring all of my priors. I used to think your software is good or bad based on I don't know the website is fast. It has a lot of features. I can click around and it works reliably. Now that's all table stakes of course. But the thing that is making some platforms spike is their ability to interoperate with the V's of the world. And if you're not good with V I actually like I have a few vendors in the chopping block like literally
39:45because of their inability to and by the way it's so it's subtle things sometimes because maybe they do have an MCP but their MCP takes I don't know 2,000 tool calls and it fails a lot and they just they didn't put you you know that they check the box. you know that they're either late to market and they're trying to play catchup or you know that their infrastructure doesn't hold up. So this one's fascinating, right? Literally
40:13today there's a major GitHub outage and I have a lot of love for what that product has done and what that platform has done for the world and I have a lot of friends there but the reality is that their infrastructure has not been able to hold up with the agentic demand and that has become a bottleneck for us and so I I've see this pattern a lot because what has happened is a lot of software maybe did present the right API maybe did present the right interface and now
40:42you have a billion agents quering it at 100 requests per second and so it's airing a lot of dirty laundry. You know, we used to say come to Verscell because you're going to need this elastic serverless compute capability. And so people would say no, you know what? I I don't think I need that. Well, look at this. From week to week, agents can 100x your your your load. Our own load has doubled in a couple months. And so I'm
41:10sometimes you know obviously not every piece of infrastructure is perfect but some of the key bets that we placed I'm really thankful for because no one could have predicted this massive acceleration and what's probably happening at a lot of companies is that someone is has an agent and is deploying to Verscell and is deploying to the homegrown legacy platform and the agent is just going and going and going and the Verscell one is delightful and the legacy one literally gets replaced. So a lot of companies are
41:39finding this with their I mentioned that marketing company. Can your platform where you deploy software absorb the creating creative demands that all of these coding agents have unleashed?
41:52Most of the time the answer is no. It's like I gave you a Ferrari. I was like here's cursor. It can do anything. All right. Deploy. Oh, I just went into a twoe queue or I can't deploy an internal tool or an agent. And so there was that impedance mismatch that obviously has has uh fortunately really favored us.
42:11Let's shift towards how AI has changed versel and how it operates and stuff. Starting with you, how has your life as a CEO changed with AI? What are decisions you were personally making now you've outsourced to AI? Yeah. Walk us through some real examples.
42:25It's been it's been amazing. You know, one thing I respect about super random thought, but like Gary Y Combinator, he did something that's so unusual, he went back to the arena and he started building with AI. I would say to every CEO, you have to do that. I recently mentioned this. It should be mandatory that your seuite and your top engineers need to come to SF and spend some time
42:53here because sometimes it's hard to believe what these agents can do and how fast companies are upgrading their operational rhythm, their best practices, their internal platforms and so and the world is moving so fast. And so, you know, when when Gary starts publishing GK skills and whatever, yeah, that's fantastic because how can he select or pick or invest in the next generation of companies if he doesn't understand the technology? And the fact that it's somewhat controversial or
43:23funny or a meme is kind of so ironic to me because like it's so obvious and that's what I try to do every day. I try to gain a grasp on is your product, is your idea, is my customer's UI good in this Asian world? And that requires you to use agents. You can't outsource that is such a dramatic platform shift. It's a little bit like mobile in the sense that if you if you were a CEO and you're
43:52like, you know what, I'm not even going to get a mobile phone. How could you possibly understand that you need to shift your road map and priorities to be a part of that platform, right? And so I think it's the same with agents. So I spend a lot of time dog fooding our products from an agentic perspective. I spend a lot of time looking at the landscape, looking at how others are doing things. I building things. But are there decisions that you're spending less time on because AI is able to give you a recommendation much faster?
44:21I do a lot of research with AI. I just published and I actually quite chuffed about this. So I created a research folder. I just heard about I'm a CLI guy. So like I when I started the company, the big idea was a CLI that made it one command to deploy your application. 10 years later, what do Asians need? One command to deploy their applications. And and I've done the same with AI. So I try to use this AI like I
44:50call it the inexhaustible IQ machine. I try to unleash it in the lowest level substrate I can find meaning the most access possible to my computer, my data, etc. And so CLI I really like and I fire off a lot of asynchronous research tasks. The ones that are personal I launch on my CLI. The ones that related to the business I just have a DM thread with V. So I go to Slack and I talk to V. And in in that context, V can access
45:20the company's knowhow. in my personal context it can access my personal information my my Gmail my experiments because I also try and maybe this is I know how unique this is but I try to put myself in the shoes of someone that doesn't know anything about sometimes I even ask the agent you know I have the thought and this is the beautiful thing about agents like the ability to expand your mind and your throughput is insane
45:47because as they become better doing longer horizon tasks They don't need a whole lot of babysitting. I can say, "Hey, go and research how easy it is to sign up for the Versel AI gateway and get an API token." I had that thought. It's like I'm curious how easy is that? And in a past life, that would have been like a product review session. It would have been a meeting. It would have been some slideshow, someone like taking screenshots of the of the onboarding funnel or whatever. It would have been a
46:17convers I would have been pestering something on Slack. Hey, can you check on that please? No, go to the agent. So, when I go to a human, I'm really, you know, respecting their time and their attention because I kind of, if I DM you, it probably meant that my agent couldn't figure it out actually. So, yeah, let's dive into that specific thing. What is the limitation as of today and maybe where that limitation will be in a year? Why do you
46:45still need to go to a human today at Wasel? Yeah. So agents can many times inform. So one pattern is fascinating and that I think Jack from Square is arriving to this conclusion as well is that it's not going to be an ore anymore. It's always going to be you, me and the agent. I was talking to the CEO of Slack yesterday. I was telling him like I have a very specific product requirement. I needed to be in a DM thread and obviously with respect of
47:14privacy and and and security both parties need to agree but imagine that we always agree that it's fine for an agent to be there to assist us or to proactively contribute to the conversation. So it's no it's no longer like oh I go to you or I go to the agent most of the time and it's fascinating because I in this process I also teach people I think you know this is this is very interesting we have V but that doesn't mean that everyone this is it's
47:43hilarious to me because you know yesterday I said we now have intelligence that is as accessible as running water and I really think that our brains might not even be able to comprehend what that means and I do have a small example of this. It's that I have to put myself in a conversation with an agent and then I I ask the agent in front of you because then that person knows just how capable this thing is.
48:10And uh that might be our limit right now is that we tend to you know we all follow the inertia of the technologies that we grew up with how we've been doing business for the past few decades and we do need to actualize and by the way to your point about what models can do I have to revisit these priors pretty often every other month. every month we've been investing a lot at Verscell in benchmarking because it literally has
48:38become almost every other day and so we we released a deepseack bench because the talk of town right now is cyber security and the question that I get a lot from CIOS and CISOs is how do I protect myself? How worried should I be about the threats from mythos or open weight models?
48:59And I myself was finding myself asking our CTO who created this tool DeepSack which allows you to run basically it's it's really interesting. So agents much like human beings can take on roles you know when you go home and you're with your kids I'm not the intense CEO like hopefully for them right like I'm like playful and whatever. And when I uh went to the World Cup final, I was the soccer fan rooting for Argentina and now I'm
49:28the CEO. And the same happens with models. So DeepSack tells every agent in every model, go and and be extremely paranoid and pay more attention to O and security and privacy and try to find vulnerabilities. And you would be shocked at how good the models can be at analyzing themselves.
49:51is a little bit like psychopath therapy because they wrote the code and then they can tell you how the code is is wrong. And what was happening is every model release was changing the economic equation. We noticed for example that soul is incredible at finding vulnerabilities but it was costing for our code bases thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars. And then Kimmy came out and we realized, oh, it's not quite as good as as soul, but it's seven
50:19times cheaper. And we need to adjust this prior every day because there's a new open weight release. There's been three or four openweight American models in just the last couple weeks. And so we've sort of transferred our, you know, instead of me having to vibe out what is the right agent or model, we're trying to formalize that.
50:41And then we'll try to hopefully soon when you ask a v hey can you do a security review of this it's automatically calling deepseack and deepseack itself is going to say all right how much do I invest because the question about intelligence on tap is that yes it's like tap water but you imagine that you have several faucets and it's also liquid gold and are are you going to have just like a casual
51:08like liquid gold sprawl for this task and so so much of this and this is why you know for people that are thinking about the future of their companies so much of this is what's going to inform your P&L tokens are going to become a huge percentage of your your operating budget and so you're going to have to think about well in this for this area of the business we spend this much with this models for this part of the business we
51:36spend this much uh it's going to vary tremendously but the way you're describing Why do you even need execs anymore?
51:42Right? Because the way you are describing is you go for research of any kind even internally first to v uh it gives you full visibility into what's happening. You only go to a human when there's a very specific thing that there's a problem that needs to be solved. Do you need execs or super IC's then outside or or maybe they're approaching the same thing, right? And again goes back to like why we're so horizontal and transparent. You know, our COO came into with this incredible perspective when she joined that she was going to create
52:12the most technically competent and most scalable go to market organization on the planet. And what she did is two things. One, create the agents that have sales skills. So lead routing and going back to what informed eventually the creation of the EVE framework and V was that she built like a dozen go to market agents. I don't even know I I don't personally don't even know them because they're in the weeds of the operational
52:39rituals of my goto market team. But if I had a question about go to market, where would I go? It's like I have to learn about like these 12 agents and so I go to V. So she started sort of rethinking go to market from an agent first perspective. Our data organization did the same thing. Data is actually maybe one of my my proudest agentic accomplishments because we're able to bend the headcount curve. We created the
53:09organization that just works on the agent. They work on the agent that can answer data analytics. They work crucially in the security model because we need to have policy for who can access what information, but that has to be transferred into the brain of the agent. And and so what they're working on going back to the factory, they're working on the machinery for data science at scale. And it's fascinating because my expectation a few years ago
53:36was I told Abby, our our VP of data, I I want every every person in the company to be able to file a ticket and within an SLA get an answer from an analytics or data scientist. Nowadays, the SLA is something that we measure in our observability platform. is how fast is time to first token and instead of going into a ticket queue it just goes to V.
54:04So you ask for example our our CTO asked the other day can you give me ideas for banger tweets and and V said we recently reached two billion deployments we should tweet it. I mean if that's not an AGI moment because it had to piggy back on the data agent and it had to come up with hypothesis. what could we could what could be interesting to tweet about could be progress in the business it could be something that is not obvious
54:32and uh it came up with this observation about a milestone and so this is kind of how we run the company now those executives are agent builders if you were to rebuild Versell today let's say you were starting versel today how would the aug design look like for you this was not and maybe this was coincidental but we called Eve our Asian framework that's open source and and people can create their own agents with It sounds to me like the genesis of a company. So when you start a company,
55:00you need to lay down the foundation. And the foundation used to be, at least for my sort of engineering brain, it used to be the website or the cloud infrastructure. There's something more primordial than a dot and perhaps even a Delaware incorporation, which is the agent that's going to help you run the business. My son's favorite movie is Bsentennial Man. Have you watched that?
55:27It's an Isaac Asimov book turn movie. It takes place in San Francisco. That's why we loved it. We love it. I think as a family we probably watched it 50 times and got tired of it.
55:36There's a scene when the robot who's the main character goes and finds the factory that created him. The factory is run by the human that invented the robot and the robot that wasn't robots. He has this sidekick that follows him everywhere. And he when he does quote unquote surgery on the robots this and this robot knows everything about the business and is funny and charming and this is kind how envision the company of the future is you and this V style agent that you're going to keep investing into
56:06even by the way things like personality.
56:08So, one of our interns, Madison, she works on the V team and she realized V doesn't speak like a Brazilian, boring, long. It's just like what the vibe is off. And so, she worked on improving the personality and it makes for a better employee experience and it's more like us. And I'm not going to anthropformize too much here like these are still like these are machines, these are infrastructure uh components, right? But uh they are part of the you know you
56:37start a company and you start your agent.
56:38You are 800 people today. If you were starting Versel today do you think at scale you would actually ever get to 800 people or it would be 100 people and insane number of I would say because in the case of RCEL the size of the ambition is every pixel of the internet and every token of the internet. And so it's a pretty bold ask, right? Like all of the websites and all of the agents and uh and so that requires quite a bit of firepower. But
57:08you know it every day I'm surprised by the scale that we get and and again this is why I'm telling you this sort of like real time anecdotes because I'm learning design engineering is the one that I heard from from our uh uh engineering leader today. He was like, "Yeah, you know, uh, John thinks, uh, that this agent is is is going to change his haircut requirements." He thought he was going to have to hire all these people.
57:33His creation is outpacing and outperforming his expectations. This is what I was telling you about. You do have to get in the weeds of experimenting because sometimes you don't know what's possible.
57:45Okay. So let's talk about the product portfolio itself because so AI generated code was already a great tailwind for Versel you were the application cloud for the world. Why even come up with Vzero or was that a coincidence that it happened because Vzero is now a big part of the product portfolio?
58:01I I think a lot about maybe this already came across from my answers. I think a lot about time to aa I think about both for agents and people like I think a lot about like what is the friction on getting the first output on our platform and what we learned with Vzero was okay it's not just about getting something built is how can you get something that is of the quality bar of Verscell that was the first inspiration can I create a
58:29NexJS project with all of the knowhow of Versel imagine if Versel package all of the skills of what it means to create a great website or web application and then all you need to add is the prompt at least to get started, right? And so I I do think that every single day you have to keep investing in the skills of your own and and how far you're going to take this projects and whatnot, but what if we could raise the floor? And so Vzero became that thing for us where
58:58it's so much easier now to like even try or sell. A lot of people that interview with us increasingly tell me that okay like I could go to Verscell and I could like you know get the account and then clone and get repo and do all of these things even our own what we were known for which is like this like super awesome developer experience we wanted to challenge it and it was like is it possible to get started with Versail even faster and so VZero became that for us and then on the application cloud itself how does the cloud need to or the
59:28infrastructure offering need to evolve where the user is now in agent versus a human two primordial dimensions. So one is the services that are needed for the agent age are fundamentally different.
59:41The inventor of the cloud let's call it was Amazon web services. They created a bunch of services that made sense for the web. One of them for example is the CDN. And so a CDN was necessary because origins could go down or they couldn't scale. and you needed to cache data and you needed to globally distribute static content. The disruption that Verscell brought to the web world was we realized
1:00:11that content was no longer static. was dynamic and so we needed to build a modern CDN for how the web was evolving more personalized obviously today more generative more dynamic but now we're not just building dynamic web applications we're also building agents and so the metaphor has you know a striking similarity because just like we needed a CDN for pages now we need a CDN for tokens and so this is a new service
1:00:40AI gateway that was invented for for the agent H and so that's one dimension is what are the net new building blocks that you need to build agents so AI gateway sandbox these have metaphors to the cloud computing age of of yester year and the other thing that you need is that you know it used to be that you as a human being need to study okay so for an agent I need an AI gateway okay got it you go to a workshop uh oh and
1:01:09the agent will run code so I need to run it in a secure sandbox. All right, sandbox. That's not going to happen anymore.
1:01:17Yeah. The agent chooses everything.
1:01:18The human says, I want to build an agent and the and it says, okay, I'm going to use Eve. I'm going to use a I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. And so what we're thinking about is okay, what are people wanting to build and how can we be there for their agents? And so it's a combination of having the new services but it's so many you know the the founder of notion called this it's it's the design has changed dramatically actually he had a quite such a profound statement there's companies in the
1:01:47valley that have been known for their glorious beautiful UIs and illustrations and iconography fonts etc. And he says something that was striking. He said designers should now be designing CLIs and APIs. It's like think about that.
1:02:05You were using a design tool illustrating whatever and now you have to think about an interface that was created in the 1970s for the VT100 terminal. You know, my wife was asking me the other day, what is TTY? And I I think it stands for teletype writer. And it's this like ancient technology like it's like you have to go to like a museum to learn about these things. It turns out Asians need this new fun more
1:02:35fundamental more close to the metal interfaces. They need access to the foundations of computing. They don't need the interfaces that were created for human beings. And so it's really important that companies are able to very quickly iterate to that. And for example, we just launched a framework that helps you very easily deploy MCP 2.0 backends on for sale. So if a company wants to get there and present themselves to these agents are going to
1:03:03have to deploy MCP servers. I used to be like okay like web pages and and in pass and core web battles and now I'm telling you MCP 2.0 no servers because from the outside it does feel like Vzero has gotten a lot more attention but every the way you're describing it correct me if I'm wrong still is massively the infrastructure company that will power the building of software whether by agents or not vzero might be the shiny object that can enable
1:03:32it gets you it gets you through the platform right so what I care so much about is that whether you're using cloud code or vzero can you start deploying software can you start deploying ing agents that still remains the soul of the company.
1:03:45It's the soul of the company will be forever a soul of the company.
1:03:48So let's talk about finally just the AI impact on building. One question that comes up often that product used to be a multi-year mode. Are there modes anymore if everybody can build fast like what's your thought on how is all of this going to change building of companies building of defensibility? At the end of the day, I think customers will always go to the highest quality products across every dimension, right? I'll give you an example. Infrastructure. The reason that infrastructure is such a strong emote is
1:04:17that you can't just vibe code infrastructure. You literally have to have operational rigor and best practices around security. And we're benchmarking all of these agents to make sure that like our infrastructure is the most secure and performant in the world and it's globally distributed. And so I think platforms and infrastructure products I think have done really really well in this age and they have uh tremendous demand. I think bespoke products the bar for what is a venture
1:04:45investment will recalibrate for sure because VCs are always talking about like is that a lifestyle business or is that a venturebacked opportunity and and so there there's probably a world and and folks have been calling this solopreneurs and I hear a lot of anecdotes of folks that are doing like tens of millions in revenue a year single person companies I think there's going to be a reinvigoration of small businesses ironically because think about it right like you can do what took
1:05:14a team of a 100 people we used to call it a SAS company and required tons and tons and tons of investment you're going to have the time of your life because there's probably still a lot of demand for software right like think about it like the idea that my cousin is just going to vibe code an app for herself and then maintain what there's a little bit of science fiction to that right so I think software is just fine The question is if it's a bespoke piece
1:05:43of software, how big is the opportunity there?
1:05:46Is there anything that you believe machines will not be able to do that humans do today?
1:05:51Yes, I do think it's kind of uh maybe it's a recursive answer, but I think the human empathy and emotion and connection is ours and will be forever ours. And I actually think it's also under our control. meaning I refuse to have an AI as a friend and I care a lot about the connection to the people that work with
1:06:20me. For example, I actually think social networks are quite lindy in the sense that connecting to other people in the age of AI actually has the premium. It's amazing. And not only social networks but even like you know like spending time with people in physical space. I think engineering itself I think the the hierarchy of like the capital allocation what needs to be built with what values and what taste that needs to remain
1:06:49under our control and I think will remain under our control. So it's an allocation.
1:06:54It's capital allocation, right? And like who who do we give our tokens to to take us into that next big bold next step because I think with enough tokens I actually tweeted about this at one point. There was a phrase that got really popular in the early days of Linux and Unix. With enough eyeballs all bugs are shallow. Meaning the power of open source is that I can go into a
1:07:21mailing list and I can say the Linux kernel is crashing when this happens.
1:07:26And this gentleman, I believe it was Eric Raymond or or someone like that mentioned he noticed this pattern of like you put it out there and people come and go and they see this bug and eventually it gets fixed with enough tokens. All back bugs are shallow, all performance problems are shallow, all security problems are shallow. But there's still a hierarchy of like what is it that we're going to build? where are we going to devote our tokens to and there's going to be a market force in
1:07:53play because yes I do defer purchasing decisions to my agent but I also oversee them and I own the P&L of like all right agent what do you go and spend money on right and so we're still in control we need to remain in control so makes sense capital allocation will remain a human thing the founder energy of what to build will remain a human thing but not everybody in the world is like that and so my question is really how do you see society going forward like Dario
1:08:22obviously has a very doomsday type prediction around all jobs are going to go away and stuff but like maybe 98% of people are not that that high agency that they want to make that they just want to go to a job and have a good work life balance.
1:08:35I have a completely I have a completely different I I'm so optimistic because I think we're going to go into like a Did you watch Ready Player One?
1:08:42Yeah, of course. Yeah.
1:08:43It's like this infinitely whimsical world. You see this a lot because people are building their own video games. I predicted this a while ago and and and people loved it that the web was going to become a lot more whimsical and it's happening. Just yesterday something went viral that I shared with my entire team.
1:08:59Someone vibe coded a 3D examination of the human body. And I remember when I tweeted the whimsical thing I was like when I was a kid I got we got inart in Carta for our home computer. It was this encyclopedia that because of the distribution model of I build content, I put it into a CD and I get a chance to do it once a year. So much work had gone
1:09:27into like the shiny pages. The page about the human body had this really cool illustration and interaction and I could click on like the uh stomach and it would blow up and like this was on Windows 95. Fast forward, we went into what's scarce is access and what's the alpha is in massive distribution in the update rate of information. So we got bland Wikipedia and it's literally like
1:09:55a white page with text and so now so my prediction was no we're going to go back to like really cool immersive experiences and worlds and starting to happen. Someone shared I think it's like uh I don't know like humanbody.cell.app app or something like this. And I can guarantee you that that was all prompt based. The creativity was infused in like the presentation layer.
1:10:20It's like a piece of art. And so I think artists will make a comeback which have been somewhat suppressed by this like again industrial scale content machine um small businesses because it's it's a little bit like I actually prefer to get like the handmade chocolate or the olive oil. My my my family produces olive oil and so I I love our olive oil. is different from big oil. And so, you
1:10:48know, much like Shopify who we're partnering with so that we can enable more businesses to get started, you can now vo a shop that gets this incredible backend of Shopify. Now, I think those platforms are just going to do so well because people are now going to have the ideas and instead of being like, "Ah, there's no freaking way I can do it." One day, you're just going to prompt it. And so, I think that that we're completely eliminating that friction.
1:11:15Yeah. It's like going back to the renaissance like it's almost like a new new world of creativity and we're rebuilding the whole freaking internet.
1:11:24Yeah. Okay. Let's shift gears towards the inner game. You know you you were a legendary coder. You have built what you've built and then you became a CEO, a legendary CEO. Now were there parts of the journey where where it was tough to become a leader from an individual like 100x coder like can you walk us through how that journey from a legendary coder to a legendary CEO has been? It's tough right? Um first of all in the early days
1:11:51you have to do everything by yourself.
1:11:54You have to write the code. You have to build the infrastructure. You have to design. You have to market. You have to do payroll. You have to do like all of these things. And and you're not world class at all of them. I can guarantee you that. You know, there's a few people that can do a handful of things at a worldass level, but I told I tell them, "Let's figure out go and negotiate a good deal with this company or this
1:12:23vendor." like they just like they have no freaking clue. And so I think what the challenge of today is going to be for every leader is that they will be able to do more. If if they stick to what they know, they're going to they're going to be left behind because there has been an amplification. Your bandwidth as a human being has been amplified is what we were talking about earlier. If you just stayed in your lane of like I'm the CSS expert, I'm the JavaScript expert, I have bad news for you. So I think the way that I think
1:12:53about it is each leader has like become more full stack. There's been times in my life, you know, I you were asking me about burnout before the interview. I think the number one job has always been I think Ben Haritz talks about this, right? Like maintaining your own psychology and going back to the metaphor of like a a company's job is to the new product is your factory. There's a quote by Elon that said what he realized at Tesla is that the product was not the car. Of course, it's the
1:13:22car. The product is the factory that can produce those cars at scale. And so it's the same for for software now, right?
1:13:29And but you are responsible for your own personal factory. And so I maintain this factory to the best of my ability. It didn't always come naturally. I was I was not always, you know, Monday through Monday, you know, religious about my routine and uh you know, taking care of my body and my diet. I think I do a pretty good job now. I'm always trying to optimize more.
1:13:54Did those changes come because you hit the ceiling somewhere? What forced the changes?
1:13:59I I think the lesson always becomes clear when the student is ready. So, I think there's probably mistakes I'm making now that are like super obvious and like I'm going to be there in two quarters or whatnot. And so, I always have this learning mindset. I've never arrived. No one has ever arrived. I think ultimately ultimately the journey and uh and I'm very almost like spiritual about this. It's it is for me a spiritual journey. And so, there's
1:14:28this like whole like self-reflection is bad or whatever thing. I'm the opposite. I'm finding myself and I'm discovering.
1:14:35So I two things that motivate me. One is like understanding myself more and then understanding the positive impact that I can have on others. If I work out a lot and I treat people really well and I raise their ceiling and I help them do cool things, it comes back and that's when I learn say, "Oh, that was really good." I'm probably also doing things that are bad and and then so just constantly trying to be adaptive. But no, I like I I I have low lows. I did
1:15:03have a transcendental moment for myself which was so the problem with startups by the way is that it's never a straight line and it's never like a perfect curve up into the ride. And so sometimes you are doing really well and then you regress.
1:15:18So sadly life sometimes gives us the AB test. I'll give you an example. I started the company so focused on simplicity I mentioned is is what's made us so successful like we brought to the world this radical idea of like a single command deployment and then I did get distracted and started throwing at the wall at times and so life gave me that AB test see what happens when you do all the other and see what happens when you stay focused and go
1:15:47deep and so that's why sometimes it's really painful did you end up also having to level up as a manager or manager of managers or was all of that path more natural?
1:15:59It's constant, right? And and this is why I encourage everyone to have kids because at the end of the day, I mean the impact that we can have on other human beings is is we sometimes I think underestimate, right? And I'm not just talking about like my ability to manage and like get really cool outputs and really good code and whatever, but like the impact that we can have on people's lives. You know, we spend so much time at work. Think about it. Like for me and my colleagues, this is our life's mission. And so we spend a lot of time together. So I try to spend every second
1:16:27of my life thinking about how can I be a better manager, peer, student, reward the right things, build the best culture. Maybe this is something that I also started paying more attention. I I literally invoked a value of versel today which is iterative greatness. And so working on the dissemination and promotion of our values is what's actually given me scale because I think there is a perspective that management
1:16:55is one-on- ones and luckily we have Jensen Huang who has shattered that illusion. Management is not about what I don't know Harvard Business Review told me that I have to do a one-on-one and no there's at the end of the day the best manager will scale himself. So Jensen says well I have a meeting with 10 people at the same time. You know what also gives you scale? Leading by example, values and adherance to values.
1:17:20You know, I religiously do customer support rotations to the point where it's kind of become a meme that people tell me like, "Oh my god, the CEO giving me support." It's like, yeah, like of course you there's other CEOs that are not giving support. Great.
1:17:39Great for me and and uh my competitors, right? And so I try to lead by example and uh I I don't want to be performative. I really try to be in the weeds and and feel the pain um and uh and do the best that I can for for my colleagues.
1:17:54Is there a CEO mistake you made uh that you can share that you still think about?
1:17:58I hate making mistakes. I just freaking hate it. So, someone said uh I don't know who was it, but like show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser. And so when Argentina lost, I always say I'm Argentina and blah blah. And people were saying like Argentinians are such sore losers. No, they're champions. That's why your country doesn't have as many World Cup championships. And yeah, I'm I don't advocate for beat someone's leg, like
1:18:28take down someone or whatever, like be uh physically violent or whatever, but like I don't like to lose and I don't like to make mistakes. And so for example, if I've lost focus and uh and I had seen before the right path and I h have you have that fork on the road and then you take the wrong one. Now luckily for me and and this is what gets me so I say so motivated.
1:18:51I never fall into despair is because the vast majority of mistakes are uh two-way doors. And so I think sometimes we think of a mistake as catastrophic and the reality is you breathe and this two shall pass and you've overcome that sometimes within 15 minutes, sometimes within two weeks, sometimes within a month. And so you just have to grind it
1:19:19out. You just have to grind it out.
1:19:21You have five kids, a sixth one on the way. Congratulations. Uh you're very obsessed with fitness. You're at the gym every morning before like where is all and then you're responding to people's tweets. You're responding to customer support tickets. Where is all this energy coming from? Yeah. I mean a couple things my uh the feedback that I would get from my teachers in kindergarten was like what do you guys give this kid? He's a freaking ball of energy, right? And so like I'm glad that I found my place in the world where I
1:19:51can catalyze an insane amount of energy into the world like a I don't know like a like a low friction conductor material. But you have to tune that and you have to make that sustained over time. I invest in the rituals that give me that. And so obviously cardio cardio I mean it's it's fascinating right like you have to spend energy to increase your energy budget hasn't even studied this like this is
1:20:19why fundamentally like I you know people are really excited about GLP1s and things like that but like it's never been about the weight like what you get out of grinding it out at the gym is that you've expanded your energy capacity and so for someone so obsessed about optimization and and engineering and stuff like that like what can I do to increase my energy budget because then I can be a better father, husband like the LinkedIn bio thing but husband,
1:20:47child, father, whatever like advisor like it is a byproduct of how much energy I have I think. So part of that is like how much do you do of that baseline maintenance work. Part of that I think is also just like the personality like how I am and stuff like that. And this is like a fun game and like if you love what you do, you don't feel like it's work. You don't feel like oh my god I'm like and by the way that also means like you have to tune. This is what's great about you asked what is
1:21:16the value of an executive leadership team is that some of my exs get that energy capacity from other tasks that maybe I don't love as much. You know what I mean? Have you ever had burnout in your career? Have you ever felt down So I mentioned it's never a straight line into the top and so I think I've had lols. I think by labeling it a burnout I think people maybe like try to now say like oh it's a condition or it's
1:21:44it's a and I this would be highly controversial to some people but like I try to like you know look at that as another subject of observation. It's a little bit like, you know, that you're you have a certain level of hunger and you have a certain level of energy and you have a, you know, I I something funny that I do is I measure how many keystrokes I have per day. I vibe coded my own app that counts my keystrokes.
1:22:08And so, yeah, I think you have to accept that just like everything else, like not everything will stay at the peak of performance every single day of your life. But the important thing is the attitude is like I don't fall into despair.
1:22:23If it's if it's lower, it's it's like yet another cool thing to look at. I'll give you another example. So, some people love to look at their heart rate at rest. I think that right now I'm probably near my like best over the last couple years. I think last year I had a really good ear. A couple years ago I didn't uh like maybe like cardiovascular like V2 max, whatever. And maybe a few years before I did. Could I call that burnout? Not really. And it's just another thing that I, you know, you go
1:22:52through and and you get better at. And again, I think you really have to find the thing you love. Like it's so easy for me to get energized because there's so many cool things that we can do with Versel or we're doing every day or I'm reading from my colleagues and and it gets you gives you energy.
1:23:08Next up is our quickfire round. So, you ready?
1:23:10Most overrated startup advice. I'm such a bad person for like quick fires because I give everything too much thought. Uh overrated startup advice probably I think ambition to be honest because most of the startups will die because they were so freaking ambitious that they shipped a bunch of slop into the world whereas I think you have to like moderate your ambition. It's almost like it's your it's your secret it's your my secret sauce is that after I get to this milestone I'm going to go 100x.
1:23:39So, one product that is not yours that you wish you had built.
1:23:42Nowadays, I'm building so many cool things just for myself that I'm uh But is there a product that gives you delight? So, Google Chrome, it's a mar it's a marvel of engineering. You know, there was a there was a essay recently about we use an AI to recreate a web browser. No, you didn't. No, you didn't. You just copied Google Chrome.
1:24:02Not even like even copying it is hard.
1:24:05Just the CI pipeline is a is an engineering marvel. Like I could go on for hours. This is what I do for my fun time. Like I re I go deep into like research of like I learned yesterday of how they apply different optimization profiles for binary size in certain parts of the architecture and for performance in certain other parts of the architecture because just hitting a certain size of download at that level of gigantic software scale is so difficult. and just like the security
1:24:33work that they do and like when you know remember when they were gonna sell it I was like my I was telling my CFO okay let we have to buy it like I'm pro regulation now most overhyped thing in the eye right now most overhyped I think voice um controlling your computer with voice northstar love it the way that I see it and I don't know if it's just my old age typing habits cuz I love typing whatever
1:25:00like I just don't see yet. I I think there's moments where it makes a ton of sense, but we're not we're not there yet.
1:25:09The last thing you built with your own hands, no agents.
1:25:15That's a great one. Um Oh, so one of my biggest pet peeves in life. You know what burns me out? When my flight doesn't have Starlink. And so there was a flight recently with no Starlink and I had to open Neoim again and write code like a stone age caveman. I think I was uh trying out something in Nex.js. I I can't even remember what I was building.
1:25:38But uh it was quite the experience by the way. And like you know as much as like coding is outdated now I do think it's really useful to like every once in a while just go back to like the code and it I'm thankful for that experience. I'm not thankful for the terrible go- go inflight whatever they gave me.
1:25:57What's your favorite thing that has come out of demo Fridays?
1:26:00Oh, that has shipped in the product or or that you've seen maybe just today also like what what's the favorite one that you remember?
1:26:07Oh yeah. So some I mean going back to like the heart of the company is enabling everybody and every agent to ship. We're making deployments so fast that it's hilarious. Like every day I'm hearing about we shaved 7 seconds. We shaved 1 second. We just shipped uh a new version of Nex.js that cuts down build time sometimes by 50%. And like I really get a kick out of um I'll tell you my when I was a kid the experience that maybe blew my mind the most was I
1:26:36could FTP. Remember FTP? You course. Yeah. Yeah.
1:26:39You drag and drop a file and now you have a live application on the internet.
1:26:43And some FTP clients allow you to edit the file and you save it and now your application is edited live. And that's what I've been chasing. Modern software engineering has multi-our deployments at some enterprises. I heard from a company the other day, 50 minutes to ship a change. And so out of we're we're aiming for singledigit seconds for everybody in the world at any application size scale.
1:27:12So this came out of a and so on demo Fridays I just saw another massive improvement the other day that for for many many classes of applications were already in the singledigit seconds and like it's going to become real time and and this is going to be crucial for the agents because they need that fast feedback loop.
1:27:29One responsibility you'll never give to a machine. anything that deals with you know the emotional side of like being there for my family or everything I guess like the horror movie like love and all those things like even writing by the way. So someone asked me yesterday do you does AI write your tweets? I said hell no. AI reviews my tweets gives me information. I I mentioned the research stuff. So the way I think about it is next token prediction is amazing. And as a as a
1:27:58mental model, what comes out of my mouth is the next token. The system prompt is everything. Is the room that we're in is everything that happened today. It's my DNA. It's my upbringing. It's Argentina and it's the USA and it's three World Cups and just kidding. It's all these awesome things. And so there's no substitute for you can't codify that into a system prompt. There's just way too much information and I think the best connection I'm going to be able to make
1:28:27with you is if you get my legitimate authentic farm-totable next token from me, not from a machine. So writing is my is the thing that we have an alpha on.
1:28:38Final question. Um somebody watching this uh somebody who's an immigrant or somebody who's in Argentina or India watching this wants the life you've built, what would be the one thing you'd tell them that this journey actually requires? You know, I remember my early days in ASF uh before I was married and I I don't know. I I can't compare myself to other people because I don't know what their habits were, but I think the level of discipline that I had in terms of like my entire life was like so well
1:29:07curated for learning and working and uh obviously still is, but like it was Monday through Monday. Someone someone tweeted the other day like, "Are people really working out here?" in the like it was kind of a troll like in in like Soma and whatever like our startups because there's so much grind slop material. I'm really proud of the dedication that I've put into it because I have had some gifts like I was good in math at school and I won the like local math
1:29:35competition at school and whatever. But the number of hours put on top of that I think like I joke like 10,000 hours 996 that's rookie numbers like what are we talking about? Like you have to put in the time.
1:29:51Great game. This was so amazing. Thank you so That was fun.
1:29:54Yeah. Yeah. Amazing.