0:00All right. So, when we were planning out this conference, the third layer live 2026, we kind of made a wish list of like who we really really love to see on the stage. We had some amazing amazing speakers the last couple of days. Um, but we also had like a big wish list of like um who who's like the name we want to see on the stage. We of course had Taylor Oddwell and we are really really excited that he is here today. Um, but we started dreaming a little bit harder and
0:26we started talking about how uh uh David Hinimar Hansen grew up very very close to here and it'll be really really awesome if he could come here as well and lo and behold somehow both of these guys uh gracefully said yes we'll come join you. So give it up for Tadville and DHH.
0:52All right. Oh, we got cookies. So, welcome to my living room here. Make yourself at home.
1:04Hope you get nice and cozy. And yes, enjoy some cookies. I'm just going to test her, not a prop. The best thing to do is actually sit there and eat cookies. Make sure you crank the volume over there so we can have some crunch while you're talking. That'll be best. That was my plan at least. All right. So, um, I want to start out with you, David. You, um, grew up pretty close to here, right? And I heard you actually biked here for the conference today,
1:30uh, which is incredible. What's it like to be back here and, uh, what's it like to be at a Laravel conference of all things? It's amazing. I mean, I love what Copenhagen has turned into.
1:41I was born in Copenhagen. I grew up in Copenhagen and then I left for about 20 years to live in the United States. Came back and saw a very different city. I mean it was uh recognizable by landmarks but not by temperament and not by culture and certainly not by the food. When I left uh the food here was uh what's the word? Awful. And when I came back it was absolutely worldclass cuisine.
2:06So it's amazing to be here and then also to be at a laral conference. I mean I got started with PHP.
2:11That was the first real language that I started developing in and did all sorts of early Rails prototype stuff in PHP and huge fan of the language. Huge fan of the pragmatism really of the community and the design of it and um it feels like things are coming full circle here to be back. Yeah, I want to stay at Denmark just for another minute and I promise I'll shout
2:34out Denmark. Okay. Um but as as preparing this I started thinking about how um a lot of big uh tech leaders or you know big tech entrepreneurs and stuff uh happened to be Danish uh and this made a quick list. So Janice Stok um made C++ we have Annas Halvia who uh did both Turbo Pascal but also the lead architect on C lovely language. Uh and of course Rasmos Leov who's like the original founder
3:00of PHP. Um, we got uh Skype, we got a whole bunch of things and we got rails, of course, not to not to forget. So, do you think there's something in the water here or what's going on? I do think there's something in the fact that Denmark is a tiny country of just 5 million people and we have to learn to communicate with others in something else but our native tongue. So I think we are better prepared than most at uh speaking different languages and maybe that gives us an
3:29interest in developing these languages and that includes spoken languages, right? Yeah, it really does. And I think we have a really long uh proud history. We are way above uh the average for what you would expect from such a small country in our contributions and in our impact and I think it's something to be incredibly pr proud of as Danes. So I want to dial things a little bit back and I want to ask Taylor over here. uh sort of your beginnings um you know you talked a lot about it
3:54on a podcast and various things so we'll just do a quick intro um but uh couple of decades back you working at that trucking company in Arkansas right and you were actually doing mainframe work you're working on cobalt to start with uh and you did uh also do some net right um and then you taught yourself PHP on the side but it's not really a work thing right it was like a a side thing yeah um so when did you first hear about Rails when did that first uh sort of into the And what does
4:21it or what did it feel like the first time you saw Rails? I think the first time I came across Rails must have been like 2009 or 2010. It was pretty early. Um I was doing very like enterprise work at a publicly traded company in America. Um we had about 200 300 programmers. Cobalt classic ASP uhnet which was invoking Cobalt on the back end. this all sorts of weird enterprise stuff. Uh,
4:51wanted to build like startup ideas really quickly, like prototype them really quickly. Um, knew PHP a little bit from in college, so I was like, well, I I'll use PHP. I didn't really want to run like .NET for my side projects and like download Visual Studio and stuff. So, I started working on PHP. Saw Rails as like, you know, really like the biggest inspiration for kind of how I wanted things to look, especially like active record. and uh yeah started building
5:18Laravel. It took me like maybe 10 months to build it and then put it on GitHub in 2011 and uh you know wasn't an overnight sensation but over time more and more people started using it. Yeah, absolutely. Uh by now for sure. Um I think it's time to address the elephant in the room.
5:38Oh, it's right here. His name is Eric, David. Um, and you kind of alluded to this before, but you uh you just used to do a lot of PHP and as far as I can tell, you actually started out doing some PHP even at the in the early days with Jason Freed at 307 Signals. Um, so um, PHP was the first programming language I got paid to work in. I got paid
6:03$15 an hour. Wow. Working with Jason Frerieded on a project called Single File. So yeah, I owe a lot to PHP, first professional programming language. Yeah.
6:18All right. So we talk about how Rails uh was a big inspiration for Laravel. That's that's no secret.
6:24Uh I don't think so at least. Then what are we doing here? Um so what are the things that you sort of decided to borrow asis from Rails? You're like, I want this in Laravel. I'm going to pretty much grab it as is. And one of the things where you're thinking no this doesn't belong to Laravel for some reason. Yeah. But there was a couple ways I guess that not just Rails but really like 37 signals was inspirational for Laravel because I first read the PDF of getting real.
6:53I think it was it was available free online and it was like a short uh booklet about just like how they build software at 37 signals and it was like super great. I mean people should go read it now. I don't know if it's still out there you know in that form but go read it. Um, and then Rails, basically anytime I wanted to build a new feature in Laravel, I would Google like how Rails, you know, maybe it's controllers or Rails routing. And I would do that for a variety of other frameworks,
7:19too. Like Sinatra and Ruby was kind of a popular like micro framework at the time. Um, I would look at Django and Python and I would just kind of like observe how these other frameworks were doing things, but Rails was definitely the most like framework I felt I I related to the most in terms of the way I wanted it to work. So pretty much active record, you know, eloquent is basically modeled off active record and the way controllers work is basically,
7:43you know, from rails database migrations. Um gosh I I mean most of the early features were very either Rails or Sinatra inspired and it actually I think like you know when I first created Laravel and when David using uh PHP it really wasn't like that feasible to build a Rails-L like framework in PHP until like PHP 5.3 because we didn't have like anonymous functions didn't even exist in the
8:09language. So you couldn't even do like you know you couldn't pass a function to a route definition and have it be invoked. you had to like do this other nasty code. So, and we we barely had name spaces, right? Yeah, we didn't have name spaces until then. There was a lot of features that just made it very hard to build like an elegant framework um in PHP. I think we all remember all the require statements uh no autoloading stuff like that, right? It was a bit rough. Yeah. Uh so, I want to ask you David, when was the first time that Laral got in your radar? When was the first
8:39time you heard about it? And what was your first impressions if you can remember? I think I saw it quite quickly after release because um ever since I got started with Rails, I was just interested in how other frameworks would do things. Exactly as Taylor was saying, when I got started with Rails, I looked at a lot of Java stuff because that was where most of the enterprise application patterns had been implemented by people who really cared about the structural integrity of the app.
9:08And then I would look at PHP for all sort of the immediency. How do we get going quickly?
9:12It shouldn't be cumbersome. Auto reload and all of these ergonomics is a good way to put it. PHP always had great ergonomics. Didn't especially in PHP 3 and 4 that I worked with um have some of the other things that I felt was needed to create a beautiful framework. But um Laravel popped out on the radar very early and I just saw him like just smile on my face. I was like, "Oh, I recognize that. I recognize that and I think this is what's so beautiful about open source
9:40that it is a collective where we share and learn from each other and I take it so much into Rails from other frameworks but also just from books. I mean the reason active record is called active record is because Martin Fowler wrote that pattern down in enterprise uh or patterns of enterprise application architecture sort of the the bible of these kind of patterns and it was just called active record. like that's the pattern I want like that's how I want things to be shaped. So to be
10:09able to see that pass on and the ideas that Rails picked up then gets passed over and reinterpreted in another language for what makes sense for PHP is just such a joy to see. So this is a question for the both of you. So what is one feature that the others framework released and you are went oh damn I wish I had thought of that first. Is there anything that comes to mind? Uh for me,
10:36David might not have this on his site, but for me, I know that uh when active storage first came out, I think basically the URLs that generated kind of filtered through the Rails app if I remember correctly and then they could like maybe behind the scenes they're like redirecting to the file storage like S3 or something. And we had already put out a file storage abstraction in Laravel that did not work like that. It generated URLs directly to the S3 bucket. And when I saw Active Storage, I
11:04was like, "Well, shit." Like, I I should have had everything come through the Laravel app because you just have a lot more flexibility in how you do things. And I still kind of want to revisit that a little bit. Um, u, no, I mean, a lot of stuff, you know, the active job. Um, I think action cable was super cool. Um, I was pretty much watching most everything that most framework authors were doing and trying to, you know, pick the best out. Yeah. I think the thing I've noticed the most about the Laravel community is actually both the community and the u presentation and developer relations.
11:40So Aaron France's work for example has been a huge inspiration and not just an inspiration but like an envy. I'd actually go to farest to say. Yeah. Because the Ruby and the Rails communities have a tendency to attract people who are very um idealistic. Okay. And I think that in a lot of ways that's a beautiful things and they get really they really fall in love with certain aspects of Ruby and push that to the N3B but it also makes some of them a little crazy and
12:07I just always appreciated how the the Laravel community and the PHP community in general in my opinion just was a lot more pragmatic. I was like, okay, maybe everything wasn't like just like polished in the ways that I would wanted it, but it attracted people who just wanted to get stuff done and usually had a point about getting stuff done. They had a business they were trying to build. They had an objective and they didn't have time for the nonsense. And I have been envious of
12:37uh communities that had a little less of the nonsense that we dealt with in the Ruby and the Rails world. And then also the presentation and the developer relations. I think um all of the supporting both documentation and the video work and all of that community work. I mean Lariel just did better. I think when I look at the official API docs, for example, for Ruby and for Rails, they're they're terrible. And they're terrible because they're all based on 2004 2005 ideas. And okay, maybe they've been CSS skinned a time or two since, but you can still tell that it feels old.
13:13And Laravel had the advantage of just not growing up at that time, growing up at a time where web standards were better, where we could do other things with design. So those underpinnings were just better from the get-go simply by being seven years into the future from where Rails was. So let's get a little bit into that actually because I want to talk about when uh both Rails and
13:37Laravel first released u so um uh Rails was first released on July 24th 2004 according to my notes here so 2004 right um and it was actually released on Ruby talk mailing list right this was probably pre-GitHub days I I think oh way pre GitHub given that GitHub is written in Rails right yes that's a
14:00good Right. Um and uh and Larville was of course released in 2011 uh on GitHub. Uh and GitHub has not written a Laravel. Um and um but get sure. Um so what was the first reaction you got from strangers? What was the first time someone like commented on your stuff and like what did they say and how did it feel? Um, for me, you know, when I first released Laravel to PHP, I was kind of
14:26hanging out in like PHP IRC channels and stuff and there was like a pretty depressed mood, I would say, in PHP, a lot of people were considering like jumping ship to Node or Ruby or other languages that felt like they just kind of had more going for them at the time. And I think when Laravel first came out into PHP, it was sort of a breath of fresh air like into that community that sort of had felt neglected for so long and everyone was like, "Wow, this is actually pretty cool. I I can
14:54keep using the language I already know and kind of enjoy this modern tooling that a lot of other ecosystems have." So I think people were pretty pumped. Some of the like older generation of PHP developers were like suspicious of it, you know, like this looks very different than the frameworks we're used to. This is very Rails inspired sort of like rapid application development focused. Uh but overall I think it was just it came at just the right time for PHP when a lot of developers
15:18were really struggling and kind of revitalized their career and PHP itself a little bit. What about you David? So the announcement for Rails was posted on the mailing list and the initial response which you can still find online. That's the amazing thing about mailing list. they tend to stick around until the end of time and we still have those initial threats and they were they were modestly excited. I was like, "Ah, this is cool." And you did a video, right? Or
15:45something like that. The video was not part of the announcement. Okay. But when the video dropped, that was when everything changed because this sort of textural form is great for a lot of things.
15:56It's not great for the transfer of enthusiasm. For transfer of enthusiasm, you need a human face. You need a voice. You need some excitement that you can sense and you can't sense that from reading a mailing list announcement. So when I dropped the 15minute uh build a blog and 15-minute video, the OG recording that was actually from a conference in Brazil. Okay. The first place I went to present second place I went to present rails. It was at a conference in Brazil for some
16:25reason early 2005. I think someone just recorded it and I thought afterwards that's actually a good illustration of what Rails is. I should just put it on the website. So I I cut down that to that 15 minute and that was when everything changed and the excitement just was off the scale because there was a lot of early evangelism I was trying to do where I was trying to convey well we have this feature and this is easy or better whatever and people would go it was too easy to dismiss.
16:58It was impossible to dismiss that rails was very different from what been before it when you saw someone build an entire system in 15 minutes and that became the watershed moment for the entire ecosystem for the way we even marketed frameworks. I mean I came from a background of commercialism.
17:18I went to business school. I treated this like a product launch. And at the time, much of the web and even programming communities were highly suspicious of anything that was polished, anything that smelled like marketing, anything that just looked cool. And I thought, well, that's stupid. That's not how you win anyone over. You want things to be polished. You want them to be cool. You want it to be exciting. So, I put a fair amount of effort into doing that. And then the
17:44response was just overwhelmingly exciting. Yeah, I mean I would say for the people who who clicked with it, what also happens when you put yourself out like that is you're going to get, if you're lucky, some people who click with it and really like it and then the second or two seconds later, you get the people who are the counterweight in the universe to that. We also colloquially call the keyboard warriors. Yeah. And the haters showed up quite quickly. And it's I'm really actually
18:09incredibly grateful to have gotten sort of that training early on and consistently for now well over 20 years. So by the time they show up now on a new project, you're prepared. I'm putting out there, I'm a veteran at dealing with that energy. And um yeah, anyway, so let me uh let me I want to hear about your first contributors because both Lar and Rails was open source from day one. Uh, so this is also a question to both of you. Uh, how did it feel to get the first contribution again?
18:41You got a public request over there, Taylor. Um, but you got a patch in the mailing list, I guess, right? I think we actually had patches posted to a wiki. It was a really arcane time. This is like a subversion or we got started on CBS. Man, like this is like I'm so old I got to tell you about the version control system before subversion. That is Anybody here worked at CBS before? All
19:05right. All right. You've outed yourself as being old. Um, yeah, that was the that was what we used and and I took patches on the wiki. And the funny thing was I wasn't actually I mean I was excited.
19:19It was cool, but I was also actually skeptical. I was like, I don't know if I want other people's code. Like this is this is my gem here. I've been polishing this thing for a while. I I don't know.
19:29I mean, I'll give it a moment. And then of course I'm happy that I gave it a moment and eventually came around to the idea that contributions are good. And if you have multiple people pulling in the same direction under one shared vision that was the key part then it's truly magical. And of course that's why you guys are here because that's what happened with Laravel that it became more than just one person's um creation. And I think real magic happens there. What about your first
19:53bullet Taylor? Yeah. Oh gosh. I mean it came maybe just the same day that I launched Laravel and it was pretty mind-blowing for me because when I was building Laravel I really was building it and I think Rails is probably this way as well. I was building it for myself and I didn't know and I didn't care a lot if anyone else ever used it. I just was building a framework for me to build web applications more quickly so that I could build some business or something. So it was very much
20:20like a means to an end. But when I put it out there and like I think the first day on GitHub I got four stars and I was pretty pumped. I would say that like I got any stars at all because I just did not know what to expect. And um I put up a little forum and some people like got active in the forum and I was on there every day and some of the first contributors are actually still active Laravel developers to this day and I think contributor number two of all places actually
20:45lived in Arkansas which is very weird because it's a very small state in the US uh and it's still an active Laravel developer. That's really cool. Um so I've gone through a lot of old podcast and stuff preparing for this and it's really fun actually to go through all the stuff. There's a lot of content I would say. Um, and I found this thing where uh, Taylor, you were talking about um, on a podcast about how you feel like Ruby culture kind of reads like pros. Um, like David
21:12is more of like a software writer and um, you really you really care about how the file reads and it should kind of read like an essay. Do you feel like that's true, David? Hugely true. I think this notion of the beautiful code was what put me on this journey with Ruby in the first place that this was just so aesthetically pleasing to me that I felt it wasn't like what I'd worked with before
21:37and as said I mean I worked with PHP I did some net I had dabbled in a few or ASP.NET net was it was called at the time. I did a few other things and I had never actually even considered that the code could be beautiful like that was just not on the list of priorities. It was like, well, I I have a thing I want to do and let's do it and what does it take and what are the functions? And then I found Ruby and discovered that this um obsessed Japanese guy Matt had spent just years
22:04and years and years honing to perfection every single construct in the language and it was also beautifully integrated and that the code that came out of that could be so free of line noise. I mean, the semicolons for me was just mind-blowing. At the time, I hadn't worked in a language that hadn't that didn't use semicolons at the end of the line. I mean, I thought you have to do that.
22:28And then out comes Ruby and there's no semicolons. Like, where are the semicolons? That was a huge inspiration because suddenly I saw expressing to you just you could capture the the beauty in large part of the English language English language that it has some just phenomenal ways of structuring sentences that ring just right in your ear when they're perfectly aligned. So I really got into
22:55that and then pushed it to in my opinion the limit of what was possible with Rails. I mean one of the things that uh was the feedback in the early days when someone would see like an active record model they would say well that's a pseudo code then how do you write the real thing I was like no no no that is the code that's the real thing and you know what do you mean has underscore many I mean that's a keyword isn't it no it's metro programming so there was just aspects of Ruby
23:22that made this possible and make this um become something else and I became Judia Ruby was love at first sight it sounds like it it really was actually I mean I think when I first discovered Ruby I was doing PHP at that time and I thought I had these projects I was working let me just give it a couple days and see if I can do stuff. Can I get a some records out of a database? Can I get them up in an HTML page? And I did that and I was like wow that was easier than I thought. Then I spent about a week and after that I was like oh my god my life is going to be different now
23:51isn't it? Because it was just such a a lightning bolt coming down and going like this is it this is where I'm going. This is what I'm doing. Yeah. And then I just went all in. A quick one for you, Taylor. Do you have one particular class or facade in Laravel where you're like, "This is the good stuff. This is what I'm particularly proud of or something that you know just click really well."
24:14Oh wow. I mean, I really love when like in a framework just a small amount of code just creates huge leverage. Like for me at Laravel like when we first did the real time kind of websocket event broadcasting stuff. Um just being able to put like should broadcast on an event definition and that means it will broadcast in the front end over websockets and your front end can live update.
24:35Like to me that was like pretty sick. uh just to be able to put a few characters on the class and unlock all of this, you know, power or just being able to say Q later and pass a you know when you want the Q job to execute. Just like these very like expressive um methods that read really nicely and just let you do really kind of complex programming task really easily and it reads really beautifully. Yeah. Um so you're both uh I'm going to mispronounce this uh benevolent dictators
25:05of taste, right? of your own framework. I love the phrase though. Um, so was there an unpopular decision that you guys each decided to make for your own framework that maybe the community pushed back hard on um or uh at least didn't love at first sight and you're glad you held the line for that like a feature or something? It's it's hard to pinpoint one thing, but I will say that kind of being like in charge of a framework in the in the Laravel or Rail sense. A lot of it
25:31is just like resisting complexity over like a long period of time because lots of people and it come kind of comes in waves as different fads and kind of hype cycles come through the programming world will want to like over complicate the framework with all sorts of different architectures and opinions and things like that. So I mean the whole like omocas approach that kind of David took with Rails I think is something that we emulated a lot in Laravel as well where
25:57um you just have to continually resist developers urge to over complicate things to latch on to like every fad you know and and so for me it was just like when you maintain an open source framework you have to get used to saying no a lot and at first it's uncomfortable but over time yeah you get used to it and that's really like that is one of your main jobs is to curate and like preserve this great experience and um yeah been doing it for 15 years so I've gotten used to it.
26:28What about you David? Was there anything that was unpopular in the beginning? Yeah, I'll give you two examples. One from the beginning and one from the end. So the first really controversial bit I think was inflections. So the fact that uh if you have a person class, it automatically maps to a people table and that there's just inflections on all these words that just happen automatically.
26:52And it turns out that you can cover about 95% of the English language with a set of shared rules, a handful of exceptions, and then just a a kind of side door where everyone else can uh define if there's something that doesn't fit those rules. But there were just a lot of programmers who thought that was terrible because it felt too magical. That was the word at the time and and still is in some communities that the charge is its ma it's magic. We have to lay with magic too.
27:23That's definitely a thing. It is a thing. And I'm like what planet are you from when you don't like magic? [ __ ] doesn't like magic. Like magic is amazing. And technology that is so sufficiently advanced that it is indistinguishable from magic is especially amazing because it means it's magic we made ourselves. So that was never a charge that stuck on me. In fact, I took it as a as flattery that people think, well, this is just too magical. Well,
27:51good. There should be a little magic and a little spice and a little mystery in your life. And we're going to inject it right in here with the inflections. And then more recently, our move away from heavy JavaScript pipelines and compilations into no build. And the reason I'm so proud of that is Rails has been around for a very long time. I mean I started working on it 2003. I mean that's
28:1623 years ago. That is a multiple lifetimes in the tech world that we have been able to move things forward. And from around early 20110s, maybe mid2010s, JavaScript on the front end just became a given. And it became a given alongside a bunch of very complicated, cumbersome tools like Webpack was the first big one that we ended up integrating and I hated it. Even the day I integrated it,
28:45I hated it and then I hated it more every day since. really not a big fan of the complexity that was shoved upon us in that and the fact that the web platform the underlying platform kept getting better and better until the point that suddenly Webpack was not necessary if you were willing to stick to a certain set of constraints and build your apps in a certain way and we were able to
29:11ship Rails was that seven I think ship with no build or maybe it was eight I forget but that we could ship a whole version of Rails that did not have any of the JavaScript containment or or pollution in my opinion. Reducing complexity, right? And reducing that complexity and and realizing that this is the magic of our industry does not stand still over a long enough period of time. The fundamental platforms will improve and it is our job as framework developers to stay up to date with that and revisit earlier decisions. Suddenly things are possible today.
29:46uh uh simplifications, compressions of complexity that we could not do in 2018. You could not ship new build or no build because the browser wasn't good enough. Then it became good enough and now you can ship CSS and JavaScript as plain text with a mime type. That's just incredible and it makes for such a more pleasant development experience in my opinion. I understand there are trade-offs and I understand why people want to use other things and if they want to use React or fine
30:14but the default box with Rails now is no build. Every application we've built since that day has been no built. Hey, a Gmail competitor shipped on its first day with I think 42 kilobytes of JavaScript. Wow. When it was taking on Gmail that ships uncompressed 24 megabytes of JavaScript.
30:35like that's just a completely different world and it was a world that was only possible past the uh invention of import maps on the on the client side and that this is a quite recent uh evolutional uh development. So very proud of both those book ends standing the line on magic and moving the framework forward when the underlying technology changes. Yeah. Um I think it's time for a quick
30:59pit stop. Um, so David, you uh you race cars. Um, and Tail, you have a quite famous car as well. To those in the back, that's the orange Lambo right there. Um, you might want to grab a cookie. Uh, it's a good uh good time to do that. Sure. They're not poisoned. I promise.
31:22I just want to ask you first uh about the man. Uh David, um how does it feel like driving on the track in the middle of the night like 3:00 a.m.? Uh to me it kind of feels like uh like an on call sie kind of situation where things just have to keep working uh you know 24/7 or for 24 hours.
31:42I think more of the time it's a lot more sen than that because you simply have to get into the flow of being one with the car and not thinking at all. I think that is the thing I like so much about being in a race car, whether it's at 3:00 a.m. at Lama or at any other time really, is it clears your mind like nothing else. I mean, my early most satisfying experiences with programming were when I would open this portal to the state of flow where suddenly you think
32:09you've been sitting for 20 minutes, but it's actually been two hours. You're so engrossed in the problem that everything just flows, right? And that experience was and still is very elusive when you work in front of a computer. There's a million things that can break that flow, pull you out of it. And suddenly you're keenly aware that you're not in magic land anymore. And there are annoying problems, there's drudgery, and there's all these interruptions and so forth. But
32:37when you're in the state of flow and everything just gels, it is one of the best feelings in the world. So there's a lot of overlap between or like surprise overlap essentially between endurance racing and zoning and encoding. Very much so. It is the state of flow and the feeling it gives you is the same. The difference is in a race car is not optional. When you're driving at le particularly at 3:00 a.m. in the morning doubly so if it rains you don't have the option to think
33:05about other things to get distracted or to check your um devices. You simply have to stay 100% focused or you're going to crash and at very best it's going to be very expensive and maybe you're going to hurt yourself or worse. Therefore, your mind is fully focused. That parallel being able to and having experienced flow with programming but intermittently and then experiencing it sort of
33:34continuously with race car driving. I think is any software developer who've tasted flow when they were writing code, I guarantee you you're going to enjoy the sense of focus that comes from being a race car can kill you. Yeah. So, uh Aaron Francis, whom you mentioned earlier, he's here somewhere. Uh right over there. Oh, he's behind me. That's why I can't see. Hey, Aaron. Um he said that the Lambo the your Lambo uh Taylor has done more for PP marketing than
34:00anything else in the last 20 years. And I believe it. So, uh, I'm just wondering, is it a business expense at this point or It's not a business expense. If anyone from the IRS is listening, he's hurt. I won't tell anyone. Don't worry. This stays with us. Okay. And the camera. Um, David, you're of course race cars. So, uh, as professional in the room, uh, could you please assess Taylor's vehicle? Oh, it's amazing. The Huran is one of the greatest sports car of, uh,
34:27of the last 20 years. Naturally aspirated B10. Um, revs to the moon. Sounds incredible. Just an absolutely all together amazing car, especially in orange. I've had the PLA pleasure of owning an orange Lamborghini and there really is nothing like it. And I would also echo um Erin's point here that it is important for people who have success to show others that the
34:52fruits of that success are nothing to be ashamed of. In fact, it is completely valid to celebrate this Italian specimen of craftsmanship and and amazement and having in [ __ ] orange. I I think this is actually a great service to programmers everywhere who may very well either just aspire
35:16or just be um delighted by the presence of an orange Lamborghini because it's exactly that kind of magic and wonder that children by the way have no problem expressing. Every single time I drive a nice car next to especially younger kids, especially boys, they're just so excited and they don't have this uh builtup social inhibition to try to hide it. They're just like ravit. Yeah.
35:44And then you rev it and go. I've had quite a few of those experiences and they're great.
35:49We should have more of that in the world. We should have more aspiration. We should have more just joy and celebration of the good fine things. Now, there's a line for everything and you become a boring braggard at some point, but like we're nowhere near that. We're way too far in the other direction. We're way too timid and we have way too too few orange Lamborghinis. So, uh,
36:15and Taylor, I believe you actually have really hard time finding one in just the right color, right? It took a while to actually find the right one. Yeah, it the story of how I got it is a little funny. It was it was not long after CO at a time where it was hard to find just cars in general. There was like a short if you drove by car lots, you know, they were like fairly empty. It was hard to get cars. Um, so I was watching the Lamborghini Dallas website, which is the closest like Lamborghini dealership to me. Uh, it's about four hours away and I saw
36:42an orange one pop up and I knew I wanted like a green or an orange or a yellow Lamborghini, like a really kind of bright color. And so I called him and I didn't really intend to buy the car. I just wanted to like learn about the car. You know how it goes. Um, but I called them and I was like, "Hey, you know, I'm just up here in Arkansas. I saw the yellow Huracan on the website. Can you tell me about the car?" Like I It had had like one owner previously. I'm sure they tell us about it.
37:06They're like, "Yeah, we sold the car originally. We know the guy. He he traded in it for something else, but great car, perfect condition. We can have it to you by this weekend. Where, you know, and when they said that, I was just like froze and was like, "Okay." and and so he's like great I'll transfer you to so and so and by that time it was like I was already in it was too far to like say uh never mind that would be embarrassing you know um so they had the car the car was there
37:33that weekend as they said on a truck and um I do think the funnest part about it is you know we live in Arkansas we live in a small town and you know for a while it was the only Lamborghini in the area there's actually a second one now that another guy owns um but when you see each other Yeah. The best part about it is like if my wife and I went to get ice cream or something and there's kids outside, they just go like bananas, right? And it's like, "What do you do? Can you
37:59rev up the car?" I tell them about PHP. Like, it's great. So, but that is the best part about it. So, Aaron is totally right. I love that. Case in point. All right, we're going to switch out of our pit stop and go back to business actually. Um so um basically rails was built because you needed a base camp to build base camp right that was sort of the initial concept. uh Laravel um sort of came
38:25first and then Forge came after Laravel because Forge uh sorry Laravel needed Forge uh there was like a gap in the market right um so you kind of did uh you know started out the framework in sort of from a reverse business um uh position does it still matter today that that's the origin story or is it just a thing of the past at this point I think it's very important when you're building dev tools that they're built out of a real need a lot of times. Otherwise, if you're just building
38:55like in a vacuum without any real like user uh you know either yourself as a the user of the product or any real customer, it's just like you're just going to build random stuff. So when I first built Laravel, I was building it for myself to create a real business. And then once I started building Forge and I was working on other products, a lot of the features in Laravel were driven by real
39:20world issues that we were running into whether how we needed to cue jobs or send emails or how we wanted things to work. It was very real world driven. It was never like oh this would be a neat feature let's add it to Laravel. It was it was never like that. Um and I think that's actually incredibly important when you're building tools. I think it's very easy to tell like when an open source tool is put out there with no particular like user in mind or you know business case in
39:46mind and it's just sort of built you know for for no real reason. Um the features aren't quite right you know like the API is not quite right. Um so for me that's incredibly important to have like a real reason for building something. Did you also find that helpful David for Basecam? You kind of knew what you needed. Hugely so I couldn't agree more. It is incredibly important that you're driving the extraction from something that exists and has proven itself as being worthwhile. And
40:15that was the arc with with Rails that it was not released until a fair time after base camp had been out in the market and had proven itself that this actually worked. I also think that it really helped Rails in the early days that there was a marquee application to show this is the kind of stuff you can build with Rails because at that time the term SAS hadn't even been coined yet.
40:40We were just coming out of the rubble of the dotcom crash and there was just sort of a movement to get going again and Rails hit at just the right time with a marquee application that could show if I want to build something that feels like web 2.0 is what we called it at the time. Rails is what I should use and clearly a lot of folks went that direction. And I will also say that occasionally
41:06I have been tempted into speculative programming where I'm trying to just create a feature or a framework in anticipation that I'm going to use it and every single time it's been a failure and I've had to yank it out again. So So you don't recommend that? I do not recommend that. You really in the ideal world you use something twice before you extract it. That's not always how it
41:34happens, but in my opinion, that's when it turns out the best. And sometimes you just get started with a small implementation based on a a single use of it, but then you evolve it once you get other real world use into it. I mean, if you look at active record now versus the original version, you could spot the similarities, but now it just has about what a million and a half programmers
41:59or two million programmers who've worked with it and built um actually I guess that's applications probably more programmers than that that have f uh refined it through finding all these little things in real world use, programming in anger and then flowing that back into the framework.
42:16And it ended up just being such a vastly superior framework because of that. It has to come from that use. Speculative programming is so seductive. I think as a programmer I mean certainly as a framework developer what I really like the most is to build these frameworks. I mean I like the applications too but the greater joy for me is to extract the frameworks and it's always so tempting to do it before you validated the idea. Yeah. So, I want to talk about the Laravel series
42:45A for just a brief moment. Um, this was back in in 2024 when Excel did a funding round for $57 million for Laravel. And I know this didn't come overnight. It wasn't like a sudden surprise decision. Let's do that. Uh, obviously. So, what changed your mind? I know Excel has been quoting you for a long time. And what was the scariest part of saying yes to the funding round? Over the years of building Laravel, especially kind of in the back half of the bootstrapper journey, I got
43:15like VC emails pretty regularly. I just deleted them all. I had no idea what who VC firms were, which ones were trustworthy. Why would I ever do that? Laravel was doing well. But, you know, like 10 years after I first launched my first commercial product on Laravel, I had bootstrapped the company, you know, for that amount of time. the company had been successful. I achieved sort of like a personal level of success where it was like I kind of reach re reached this personal fork in the road of like I can either sort of like coast
43:44um and go live my life and let Laraveo, you know, sort of like I kind of imagined it would it would keep going a little bit but maybe gradually decline or um we had more ambitious ideas that I would like to build. Um Excel was willing to fund that. So they did. We hired enough people, an infrastructure team. We were running, we're now running huge Kubernetes clusters, thousands
44:09of databases, thousands of applications. Um, I didn't want to fund that out of my own pocket. Um, so but Excel's been a great partner and I think, you know, I wanted to see if we could do something a little bit bigger with Laravel. Challenge myself a little bit. I felt like I had achieved a level of success in the bootstrapping world that I was happy with. can I play on this ball field and also be successful in a way that I'm happy with? Um, so it was a personal challenge. Um,
44:37you know, what was the scariest part of saying yes then? That made you hesitate or I didn't want Laravel to get screwed up for all of the people that had been using it for 15 years. Um, so it was very important for me to work with someone that I felt like really understood the community.
44:56um understood what Laravel was about, was going to allow me to continue to maintain Laravel the way I wanted to maintain it. Um so, you know, I I didn't want people to look back and be like, "Oh, remember Laravel? That was great until everything got screwed up, you know. Um I wanted Laravel to retain its soul." And I think we've done a good job at that through hiring the right people, building the right team, working with the right partners. Um I think we've been able
45:24to maintain like the spirit of Laravel as it's always been. Yeah, I def definitely agree from my point of view for sure. Um so Dave, I want to ask because you kind of on a different path, right? Rails has never been a business by design, right? It's on its own and um 37 37 signals is also a complete bootstrap business, right? Um so you of course watch Taylor take the other path.
45:47Um and we can discuss uh Bootstrap versus VC all day. That's not what we're going to do today. Uh, but what do you honestly envy about the that path? It's like nothing.
46:01I mean, I think it's all about the sort of place you're in at the time and the challenge you want to take on, right? Um, I think I've I mean, I don't know if I've softened on VC over the years, but I was really marked by the dot boom and bust. And I think some of that is almost like if you hear people who've grown up through the depression and you're like the butter, we got to ration the butter, right? Like there just wasn't enough and you get marked by the
46:27time that you come up through. And I saw things with VCs that were just uh very unpleasant. And I've seen that ever since too. Um now sometimes it also pans out. I mean I'm on the board of Shopify.
46:41Shopify is a VC funded uh Rails company and it turned out spectacularly well. So clearly there are ample opportunity for it to pan out. But I had just talked to enough entrepreneurs where it didn't pan out where I saw what the other side of that coin looks like if it if it doesn't go up and to the right. And I just thought that um I didn't need that. And the reason I didn't need that in
47:07part was just fortunate that base camp and uh hey and the other products that we've launched did so well that the temptation wasn't there. Right. And then at the same time I'll also say we just happened to luck in to a alternate mystery path that for whatever reason is just not generally available. And for us that path was called Jeff Bezos. He showed up in 2005 where we also had a
47:34million VCs trying to get money into our company and we were not interested in that path. And he shows up and says, "I don't want any of those things. I don't want liquidation preferences.
47:43I don't want any exit. I don't want anything. I just like what you guys are doing and I'd love to be part of it." And would you sell us some secondaries? Can you sell a chunk of the company that you already own, not money that goes into the company because you clearly don't want that.
47:59and we said yes. So he bought a small chunk of the company from Jason and I. The money went straight from him into our bank account and that's when I bought my first yellow Lamborghini.
48:12Literally the week after the check cleared, the yellow Lamborghini was in the garage. And there from there on out we really just didn't have the appetite for anything else because the company kept growing and eventually more Lamborghinis arrived and um therefore I just like I I don't want to bet it. I don't want to risk it. I'm actually a very risk averse person. I hate gambling with an absolute passion. I don't want to play any game where the odds are not in my favor.
48:43So, it just didn't it didn't look to me like the odds were good enough that it would be worth the gamble. So, I didn't take it. But, as I said, I've been now involved with a bunch of other companies where it panned out and it seems like things are going great with Laravel and uh I think that's wonderful. So, you're uh still to this it's been a while since Jeff Bezos came aboard with a I guess investment essentially. So, you're still happy about that decision? It sounds like extremely happy. I mean, it was a truly magical type of investment. He's still a coowner of the business.
49:13We keep sending him a check every time we do this. He's made his money back so many times over. Um, everything just worked out for everyone. And the reason it did so was because the investment was not made on economic terms. When we sent Jeff the term sheet, as it's called, like how much money do we want for the stake? I mean, Jason and I were laughing because it was so preposterous, so brash.
49:40It was one piece of paper with three numbers on it. And the number that was how much money we were going to get was so ridiculous, we thought for sure he was going to say no. And in fact, that's what it team did when we first talked to the team who were the first to receive the thing. They were like, I don't know what you guys are smoking, but this isn't happening.
49:58And then the magic just happens to be if you're worth whatever Jeff was worth at the time, 10, 20, 50 billion dollars, that kind of cash just is loose cushions uh under the couch. It just doesn't matter, right? So he could just do like I don't care. I these guys are ridiculous and this is one of the reasons I'm in investing in him. So let's just do it. And I mean amazing that that also actually panned out and was good financially for him. But um extremely happy with how that went and
50:27the path it set us on because after that when he made that investment we didn't have any money. In fact I had spent the 80% of my net worth on buying an Audi S4 like the week after I landed in Chicago and I had basically not a lot of money on my bank account. We have promising graphs, use engagement, all this stuff, but like you can't eat engagement, right? And you certainly can't drive it. So, it gave us just that confidence like, all right, we're on to something. We can go the distance.
50:59We're not going to get tempted by a VC check that at the time perhaps wasn't going to pan out. So, we're getting a little bit towards the end. We're not quite done yet. Uh even though the timer is complaining a bit, ignore that. Um, we'll get there, but we can't uh finish up without talking about AI. That's kind of silly, right? Um, so I want to start out with the demo that you did, Taylor, on stage, Laron EU, early this year. So, I believe there is uh a some bug on a
51:25hypothetical website, Nightw Watch caught it. Um, and an agent uh worked on it, fixed it, and merged it in. And then you got a phone call on stage from OpenClaw saying, "Hey, can I uh can I merge this pull request in?" Uh, it was it was really fun. like stage craft to scene on stage. I have a feeling this is not quite how you work on a daily basis. Um so how how does the AI workflow work for you guys now sort of in in general? Uh how much AI involvement do you have in the process
51:54and how much do you have humans in the loop? Yeah, it's a good question. So I pretty much start every day still by reviewing pull requests to the Laravel framework as I have for many years. Um, so as soon as I get to my office 8 a.m., I fire up GitHub. I'm looking at the list of pull requests.
52:10So I use agents to do like a quick pass over a lot of those pull requests and just sort of like get me up to speed if I need like I mean some parts of Laravel I haven't touched in years. And so if a PR comes in on that particular area, I have the agent review it. that services any sort of like blocking things that I just might have forgotten, might not be thinking of certain edge cases, uh, which is super helpful, but I actually do still read every line of code that goes into the framework with my own eyes. Um, even if I use agents to review it, just so I like know, you know, what's in there.
52:43Um, that's still like incredibly important to me even in an age of AI to feel like the framework is still handcrafted in a very real sense. Um, AI has also been super helpful on documentation, I will say. So, like we do a Laravel release every week. I keep a running list of the PRs that have been merged. I give it to an AI agent with a prompt that, you know, I've already written and
53:07it documents everything in the right place for all the PRs of that week. Um, and that saves me hours of time. You know, there's some certain features that just might not have ever been documented because no one was going to take the time to do it. Um, so I feel like I use AI in a little bit of a I don't think I have any like magic tricks or fancy setups, but I just use it in very practical ways to speed up my workflows maintaining Laravel. I'm really curious to hear on on your side too, David, especially um how you ship features at 37 signals compared to uh like at Omari for example.
53:40Uh is that the same kind of workflows you're using and and how much do you have humans in the loop and how much do you let the agents do their thing? So I think the funny thing about this is it's all nine months old at best and the real accelerations happened in the last three months. So trying to deduce the final pattern here is a complete fool's errand because everything is going to change when the next set of models drop because they have been changing every time a model has dropped.
54:05But I'll say what I've been focused on for the last three months is a new Linux distribution called Amachi. And well I've been focused on that for the last year. For the last three months, I worked on a version of it called Quattro, which is the latest release that just dropped last Friday.
54:20That release was about four times as much code inside Umachi as the entire thing you had before.
54:28It was an extreme explosion of sort of assuming responsibilities from all sorts of subsystems that now Umachi owns inhouse. Would never ever have happened without agent acceleration.
54:41Virtually 100% of the code for Quattro was written by agents. I have not personally written a full function of new code in the last three months. How does that feel? Is that scary or is that like just how the world is? Amazing. It is literally the most fun I have ever had with a computer. And I've played with computers since I was about 5 years old. So that makes it 41 years.
55:09This is the golden era of liking computers if what you are attracted to is seeing your ideas come to life. And I think this is why it's perhaps particularly a good fit for the Laravel community, the pragmatism, the resultsdriven development. If you don't have hang-ups about human written code, you can do truly mind-blowing things. Now, what's also interesting is I heard people say what I just
55:37said about four or five months ago and I thought they were all [ __ ] psychos because it sounded so outrageous, so crazy, so out there, so AI psychosis. And turns out a I just hadn't dug in hard enough and b the models just needed to upgrade another round or two before we landed there. So I am truly AI pilled at this point but from a from an excitement about what's possible
56:05with the future. I mean this distribution um going under the tagline of the malible computer if if any of you have a PC especially an old one you can just override and put it on runs on a potato from like 2012 with four gigs gigabytes of RAM you do not need to buy a new [ __ ] Mac Mini to run your open claw. That was the stupidest thing I've ever heard in my life that happened
56:29for a little while as people ran AI on Open AI servers and bought a completely overpowered machine to do it because that was cool. Don't do that. Um, but give it a try because when you experience what the malible operating system can be like, imagine that everything in the operating system is as changeable as your web application. you have a feature in your head, you want to implement it. Regardless of what it is, whether it's changing the start menu or the
56:59panels or the clock layout or how the backgrounds are run, you can do anything you've ever wanted to do in a computer without writing a line of code. You ask an agent to do it. We have skills for everything and the agent will do it in a few minutes. We launched that plug-in repository um six days ago. It's gonna hit a thousand plugins this weekend. It's crazy. We're currently serving
57:26about 5,000 ISO downloads a day. This thing is exploding like no project I've ever been involved with. Rails was crazy. Is crazy. Amazing impact. Took years to get there.
57:39Um is getting there at the speed of AI, which is absolutely mind-blowing. So, really quick, I'm really curious about this 37 signals and like the Basecam product and and him and everything.
57:50how because that's might be a little bit harder to go, you know, full AI to do it today. And I think this is one of the reasons why people are not seeing what I'm seeing on the um development side is AI has different lanes of acceleration. If you have a large web app and you put AI at it, it doesn't do the things it's currently doing at Linux development. It just doesn't. You cannot be assured that what you ask it for is going to be compatible with your architecture and it's going
58:16to be nice. We tried. We just launched Basecam 5. A few months ago, it was the first AI accelerated product development we did. And at one point, we were so excited about what was possible with AI, we just said to the designers, you just vibe your own things. And it took about like a week before it started poking holes in our beautiful handcrafted architecture. And I went, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We got to back off a second here. So, we're still backing off, but this is temporary. So by the end of the year, yeah, I'd be shocked if it's not possible for our designers to
58:45vibe code changes to base camp directly without safely much human overview. Because the other fascinating things here, one of the things that AI is better at than almost anything else is code review. As you were talking about having someone do the early review on a PR, AI is scientifically better. And I know this because Shopify ran a study. They traced all their outages back to the PR that caused the outage. And then they compared PRs that had agent review versus PR
59:13that had human review. And humans just were worse. Now, humans are good at a lot of things. They're not good at reviewing other people's code. They just they get bored. They drift. They like, "Yeah, it looks good to me." Do you require human code reviews at Base Camp right now? Yes, we do. But I don't know for how much longer. No, I I guess it's a compliance perspective, too. No, I don't that.
59:37This is just from a I don't want this beautiful code base that we have literally been building for well over a decade to get screwed up by some dumb agents. Right? Let's talk about beautiful code for a second here because that is sort of a repeating pattern, right? And something you both deeply deeply care about. Um I'm just going to add the stupid question, right? So if we have all these
59:58agents writing and reading the code, how important is beautiful code today or in a year? Ouch. It's a good question. I think I tend to think about it not so specifically about code. I'm very interested in creating like beautiful products or beautiful like experiences and Laravel is one of those things. I like to use Laravel to create other beautiful things. And I think that even in
1:00:25the world of AI, it's just still kind of good for the human soul to create beautiful things. Like it's fun. It's very fulfilling. It's a fun thing to do with others in a community. It's very like personally satisfying. So none of that changes, I don't think, in a world of AI. If anything, it's easier to make ideas come to life that just simply weren't possible. Um, you know, like David building an operating system. I've built games. I I would never be able to build these kinds of
1:00:53things pre-AI. Um, and that's just made I I feel very similarly that I've not had this much fun programming I think in a very long time because almost anything is possible whereas it just wasn't before. And um that still doesn't mean that you can't build really thoughtful, beautiful experiences that, you know, contribute good things to the world. I I don't think AI changes that. If
1:01:19anything, it just makes it even easier to explore things you could never explore before. And what about DED? Uh the solid pattern, Tedd and stuff like that. It's just not that important anymore.
1:01:29Yeah, I think it's funny like, you know, so much energy was spent debating like TDD and different ways of building software. And maybe some of those ways of building software are still relevant, but like I don't think I'll ever argue about TDD again. That just seems like something that we'll never talk about again really. um you know and it's funny how much energy was expended over the years on that but um and how it can just be changed in an instant almost it feels like
1:01:55um but you know for me when I build Laravel I still do put a lot of care into making sure the code feels good um I haven't given up on that I don't suspect that I will for years to come um even in AI age what do you uh David what do you think is I'm suspending judgment until at least the end of the year. Because I mean, as much as I dearly love the past two decades of my career
1:02:23handcrafting this beautiful code, I've also come to accept that sometimes there are these paradigm shifts in history where there's the before and the after and life is just very different. I think we are at the moment of the microprocessor, maybe even the transistor in terms of what the life is going to be like afterwards. This is the tip of the iceberg, right? The what? the tip of the iceberg, right? That's so important to I mean, some of it is that the the future is already here.
1:02:50It's just not evenly distributed. I am living the future right now with Amachi. The Linux development AI is capable of doing is 100% AGI, artificial general intelligence. There has been no problem, no feature, no task that I've given these agents in the last three months that they were not able to nail. And the majority of those tasks, they nailed much better than I ever could have.
1:03:13I have developed apps at this point that are included in this distribution, a writing app, calculators, all sorts of stuff. I've never read a line of code. I've written Rust for [ __ ] sake.
1:03:24Rust is the ugliest programming language that has ever been created. I would rather boil my eyes out than manually type that [ __ ] But it's so fast, right? It is a great system language when you don't have to read it. So, I've had agents do this stuff and in time in in amounts of time that seems just science fiction. I I translated a library we're using for some effecti from Python
1:03:51to Rust. And I thought, you know what, how long would it have taken me to get proficient enough in Rust to be able to complete this task and then do the task? And I was giving myself a gracious nine months. I think that's how long it would have taken me to get proficient enough to to even solve it. and Fable did it in 42 minutes. I'm like, when you have experiences like that, you must sit back and accept that the life you lived is just going to be very different. Now,
1:04:19I'm extremely excited about this possibility. The fact that I can get the benefits of Rust without ever reading it is pure magic. And build all these things. I mean the man years that it would have taken to build quattro that was achieved in mere months is truly mind-blowing. Um so I think at some point beautiful code is going to be like a beautiful saddle. It's something we mount
1:04:48our horse because we want to enjoy the horse, not because it's a mode of transportation that's going to take us from New York to California, right? We're just not going to do those things again.
1:04:57And it used to take three months for people to get that distance. And it's a little bit like that right now with pockets of programming. Things that used to take three months can now be done in about 3 hours. So I don't even think I fully internalized what's going to happen here. I mean, I've dedicated my entire career, in fact, most of my life to computers, playing with them, having
1:05:21fun with them, and we're at this epocal change. And it's it it's going to get really weird. It's going to get so weird that we're going to have to talk about how weird it is. That's the meme. So, I think that's also what it's been like for the last year or two trying to predict the future and failing every single time because uh you can't predict what's coming up. Please stop doing that. This is how you develop an AI psychosis. If you try to even predict what it's going to be like at the end of the year, you're going to go mad. Focus on right now. What can I
1:05:50do with these models right now? What can I write that I couldn't write yesterday? What can I learn that I couldn't um would never even have started as you say games programming. I already learned programming thinking I was going to make games and then I realized I really sucked at vector math so I couldn't do that. Um now you can. I mean these are incredible superpowers which suddenly being granted. It is truly the most amazing time to be alive and in love with computers. So let's finish
1:06:17off talking about the future and actually trying to predict it. That's going to be fun because we can go back 20 years from now and see how right or wrong we were. But let's say 20 years from now, it's 2046, which sounds very sci-fi. Rails is 42 years old and Larl is 35. Uh, wow. Um, what do you hope is still true about them? It's a question for both of you. What do you hope is still true about them? What do you hope is long gone? And do the frameworks even exist in 20 years? Oh gosh,
1:06:46I hope they do. I don't know, you know. Gosh, this is kind of like a touchyfey answer, but I think that I I hope we can all look back on for me personally, I want to look back on Laravel and think like those were sort of like the best times of my life in many ways. I met people all around the world. Um I took my family all around the world, made connections in places I never thought I would go, you know, as a kid growing up in Arkansas. Um so for me if I could look back
1:07:13with satisfaction on that was a really great time in my life where I just I never expected to build software and collaborate on ideas with people from all around the world at such a scale that Laravel allowed me to. Um so for me that's been personally very satisfying. Who knows if Laravel as a technology will still exist. If it does I hope it's doing well. Um, but for me, I just, you know, coming to events like this and hearing what people are building, the companies they're building,
1:07:40the problems they're solving, the like, you know, service they're doing in their community. Um, to me, that's what really gets me fired up and really always has and like energizes me to keep working on Laravel because it's empowering so much around the world. Um, and I hope it continues to do that for as long as it's able. David, you uh on her turf, you get the last word. uh Rails in 20 years. What do you think? It's going to be a beautiful chapter
1:08:07in the history of computer science. We're gonna look upon back back upon that era as some of the most beautiful moments that we were handcrafting incredible code, but it's going to be history.
1:08:21And I don't think we have to wait 20 years. But it was the friends we made along the way. Yeah.
1:08:34I think that's a perfect note to end things. Thank you for closing us out. Thank you so much. Sure. My pleasure. All right, man. Good job.
