0:00This is a technology that exceeds human cognition.
0:08You're working with Anthropic, you're working with OpenAI, you're working with Google, you're working with Microsoft. What don't they get about what's going on? Yeah. I'd tell you other than Elon, don't think you're going to stop AI by just protesting a data center. You know, if it really does come down at the end of the day to a Donald Trump and Xi Jinping, could you call them together? I say in my memo that all Van Jones on Substack.
0:52It's a huge honor uh to be with you. Uh I read the essay. I feel much more encourage challenged but also much more encouraged having read it for you uh to be coming off the the sidelines and pulling people together to fix this important. I want to set this up properly. Um you know for you to come in and take this position is so important because you've been a titan on the tech side.
1:18Uh you started Microsoft. It's one of the you know probably most important companies in the history of capitalism. Then you started the Gates Foundation, which is, you know, the signature uh charity probably in the world. So, you're you kind of have a double uh credential here.
1:36Powerful on technology, powerful on philanthropy. This essay puts you right there at the crossroads of technology and public purpose. You're calling people together to say, "Look, we've got to get AI right. Why did you decide to do it now? You got the things you're scared about, the things you're excited about, things you want us to do. But just set me up. What is a concern that has Bill Gates raising his hand today saying, "Guys, look at this." Yeah. There's two dramatic things during
2:03the last year that compelled me to write a almost shrill essay about, wow, we are not paying enough attention to minimizing the bad or accelerating the good. The first is that the models have gotten way more powerful uh even faster than I expected. You know, I was stunned when I first saw Czech a
2:27little over three years ago. And now uh at the end of last year I saw a lot of the models but Claude code uh first that was actually writing programs and you know taking the one thing I'm good at and being almost superhuman uh at that and then the the power through the agentic approach of you know
2:54designing molecules or finding flaws in software or you know being so humanlike that you almost feel like you have a relationship. So that's the first thing is that the models you know anybody who hasn't used the latest they are amazing and I know from talking to the industry that the even this year we'll see big improvements. Second is that I was kind of stunned that after many years
3:21of saying when we got to a threshold that the models were good, you know, and and were a threat for cyber attacks or bioteterrorism that then we'd exercise some discretion at least against those particular capabilities. And I've been kind of stunned this year that there hasn't been either within the industry or outside the industry more of a clearing call that wait a minute, this is not like any other technology. And in fact, some people saying, well, technology's
3:51always been good. Don't get upset about this one. Yeah. Let's just talk about that before we get into some of the concerns that you're raising. For you to be saying, hey, this disruption is different. You got to take that very seriously because you were the most disruptive kid on earth you came on. I mean I mean you came in and you turned the tables on everything and created you know you were one of the big people the entire internet boom most of what we associate with
4:17um the last internet and technology revolution. You led and people were terrified of you and said you were going to disrupt too much. But it all worked out pretty well. What's different? What's different about this AI boom such that the wonder kid from the last boom is saying slow down. What's different? Yeah. So, as you say the I've always thought innovation was a net good even if it had
4:43uh some drawbacks. You know when I did word processors people then say but you know you could write a nasty note or something. It was uh overall uh very empowering for people. What's different here is that this is a technology that exceeds human cognition. its ability to outthink us and to
5:06understand what we want and uh you know uh engage in things that uh uh we don't expect uh just the the level of power you know so the job market will be deeply affected and somebody who couldn't have designed a a cyber attack will be allowed at very low cost to do that. So we've reached
5:32this absolute threshold of power that makes this a in the history of mankind a uniquely dangerous and also uh possibly you know positive tool uh for us to use. One of the things you said in the essay that got my attention was that all of the good things that could come out of this technology, uh, you know, all the medical breakthroughs, they go right hand in hand at the same time with all the
6:00scary stuff. If something is is powerful enough to cure disease, it's also powerful enough to create some disease. And that you've got to therefore, if you want the good, you've got to take the bad seriously. And right now you're saying we just don't have any construct in the private sector, the public sector, the philanthropic sector to deal with something like this. You said something about children in this essay. I think people should really look at. You said there's a danger
6:25these chat bots create a what do you call it a greenhouse bubble in which children don't actually develop very well. Can you talk to the parents here? We're going to get to all the positive stuff in a second, but let's get the threats right. We'll get the we'll get the pos. But on the threat side, what is this greenhouse effect you're concerned about for kids? Well, even before AI is getting so powerful, the idea that kids are a little less mature, a little less going out and
6:52engaging with each other, uh you know, Jonathan Height, Scott Galloway, a number of very uh powerful observers have seen this trend. And so I would say we should be very concerned that unless AI is used tastefully that it'll take that to a whole new level. I mean you could literally have a kid who has four or five friends all of which are AI and they'll never experience okay my friend's
7:19in a bad mood today or my friend misunderstood me or my friend needs help. uh because it'll be so accommodating that the normal adjustment we go through of you know developing socially uh that will be completely ignored and so uh I even worry about these psychosocial dependency things
7:42for adults but I think the black and white part of this is what is this going to do to kids and what uh how do you engage parents how do you put limits on and that's one area where uh China's actually uh been the strongest at saying, "Hey, we're just not going to have uh kids have access to this."
8:04You know, one thing you said in the essay that I thought was was touching was that kids getting the skills to adjust is tough. And you know, as a kid, I wasn't that socially skilled. You said you weren't that socially skilled, but but but you said your mom actually played a big role in helping you. What did your mom do? uh that helped you because you had a bunch of parents listening now. We got their attention. What did your mom do for you that had you been stuck with
8:30a chatbot would have never happened? Well, both uh socializing with people my own age, you know, being willing to take me, invite people over, making it fun for kids to come over. Uh you know, if I did well with the kid, she'd kind of praise that. if I sort of disappeared, she'd uh you know, say that's not uh appropriate. Uh also with adults, you know, when they'd have parties or
8:56any adults coming over, I remember thinking, "Oh no, I'm going to have to talk to these adults." Uh you know, and they're going to say, "Oh, you're so you've grown so much or whatever." But over time, actually, that part of my social skill developed faster than talking with my peers. And it ended up being very helpful to me where people would choose to mentor me because I could talk to them
9:19about the crazy ideas I had. And so now I give my mom immense credit for taking a introverted uh kid who could have just sat at the computer and giving me enough social skills that when I needed to hire people and promote you know Microsoft products that uh I I had had some capability.
9:40My mom was the same with me. I was shy kid. I wrote a lot of poems and drew a lot of cartoons and I would I carry my books to the sports games and you know but she but she worked on me and um I just think it's important parenting gets more important in the AI age not less. Um, but speaking of the AI age and the AI race, look, you know, you're in a such a unique position because uh, you know, you're actually from the the foundation point of view, which is the philanthropic side,
10:09you're working with all the hyperscalers. You're working with Anthropic, you're working with OpenAI, you're working with Google, you're working with Microsoft. So here you are on the foundation side trying to make the world better, and you are in direct partnership with the people who are leading this revolution. What don't they get? talk about your relationship with the existing uh AI uh leadership. Yeah, I'd say other than Elon, I have a great uh relationship with all the AI
10:37leaders, you know, uh people like Deus or Sundar who's the CEO, Mustafa, Microsoft, Satya, you know, Sam Alman, uh you know, really helped me understand their road map.
10:53uh Dario Amade and their team if you look at the statements they've made they share a lot of these concerns you know maybe one is a little more black and white than others but even when OpenAI is creating its product they had various rules like well if we get to certain dangerous thresholds maybe we'll have to hold back unfortunately because we have many of these people competing
11:20with each other both in the United states and uh primarily in China, none of them individually can hold back. And so they're all kind of waiting for uh people outside the industry to come in and say, "Wait a minute, a model that can make new molecules needs to be monitored to make sure it's not a tool for bioteterrorism." And so I think actually as we make this concrete,
11:49uh I don't think we'll see a lot of resistance. you know, they've said they want to engage government, but you know, here we are. And I'd say it's the sophistication on the other side, uh, where I would say the awareness of these downsides, uh, is not as great as it needs to be in either political party. It's I'm not, you know, saying one party's got it wrong. It's both.
12:12um you know the as you see graduates who use AI they know how powerful it is and they're concerned about the disproportionate effect of the job market changes on them so you have them being upset you have people attacking data centers but you know stopping every data center would not uh lessen the challenges we face we need solutions very specific to the job market or bioteterrorism
12:41that uh I don't think the industry will resist you know if we said completely okay they would uh but I think there's a a solution that far sort of I mean yeah and what you're suggesting is a level of coordination um between the public sector and the private sector from the grassroots all the way to global that really hasn't been achieved yet by humanity. One thing you said in the essay, and
13:08this is not just like, you know, the nuclear arms race where you're only regulating one technology in the weapons space. You know, AI is going to hit literally every single part of the economy.
13:18And so, this is kind of why you're suggesting and really calling for people to come together to get this thing solved. But it does seem to me that there's this sort of trap that the AI companies are in and that they have to keep racing ahead of each other. you know, America's got to be China, Anthropic's got to be open AI, and once you're in this kind of competitive race forward dynamic, isn't it very hard to tap the brakes? I mean, is is that why you're saying that governments have to
13:47come together to get this done? Yes. The expecting an industry to self-regulate, including issues like social psych social effects that you know, they're not social scientists, psychologists.
14:03uh we need to bring in all of academia you know economists social scientists to weigh in on these things and you know some of them aren't using AI some of them have heard oh they're always going to make lots of mistakes and so my memo is sort of a shrill call that hey uh anyone who says this is like past technologies they are wrong and we will be sorry if we don't bring
14:32all these fat groups in. And of course, in the end, it's the government who's going to set the rules and say, "Let's minimize cyber attacks with these guardrails." I don't really understand when people say they're going to do voluntary reviews. It means nothing unless you set the criteria of what you're looking for and you say what you would do if those criteria aren't met. Yeah. One of the
14:59things I've been seeing is that when I'm with the AI leaders, they say we need the government to regulate, but I'm with the government leaders. They're like, we don't know how to regulate.
15:08This is all new stuff. That's a fair summary of where we are. And if this was some minor thing, we could say, okay, there'll be a few, you know, problems, but this is the most major thing of technology in human history. And so that state of affairs has got to change quickly. I want to get you this because you have a vision here and I know it's early and you say in the essay, look, I'm going to come back on this, I'm going to come back on that. So, I'm not trying to put you in a box,
15:35but I was very inspired by the vision. Uh, your vision is that the governments of the world and leaders from all parts of life are going to have to come together and coordinate in a new way. It almost in my mind implied, you know, like after World War II, you have to put together like the United Nations and he had to put so so this is not pass a bill. Bill Gates is not coming and saying pass a bill. He's saying something very different. He's saying that this requires a different level
16:01of coordination and we've got to think about how the grassroots people and the global leaders sit together. Can you just talk about that because this is this is a if people take you seriously something serious could change and you've also got the ability with your resources to help make something change. Just daydream with me. What would it look like? I mean, is it is it Xi Jinping and Trump at a kind of Gorbachef uh Reagan summit? Like, talk to me about how this might come to be.
16:29Well, enough of the really cutting edge work is being done in the US and China that I think if the US said, "Okay, models that make new molecules need to be monitored uh to make sure that's benign usage, and we're not going to let somebody put out a model uh that violates that." If the US offered
16:53that, I'm 90% sure China would say, "Yes, we'll do the same thing." And then you bring everybody else together uh because US and China is such a high percentage of it. And you know even though the US and China disagree on a lot of things enabling bioteterrorism is not one of those things. And
17:15so I think there's a a a lack of recognition that we are at these dangerous thresholds and we need to make really concrete proposals. And anyone who says, "Well, the industry won't accept it or that China won't accept it." I say, "Let's test that proposition because I don't think that's right."
17:35I think what's missing are the specifics and in some areas I don't know the full solution. Uh, you know, in bioteterror, I I I know a lot. In cyber, I know some. The job market stuff really is going to be one of the biggest debates. And then this psychosocial usage also a a gigantic debate about what's appropriate and and what's not. I mean we even have the pope Wayne in and
18:03I thought that was fantastic to say in all of this we have to remember that humanness is a special thing. It it goes beyond IQ or even you know the current capitalistic incentives and so let's try and preserve that. And that uh I I thought was very timely. Look, I I thought that was a very important moment. I think as when we look back at the sort of you know dawn of this
18:29new exponential era, you know, obviously Chad GPT, you know, is sort of like the the big new opening of the chapter and you have some other things. I think the the pope the pope statement, you know, winds up being very important, but I think your statement winds up being very important because you're not Sam Alman. You don't have a dog in this race. you know, you're not, you know, Dario. These are great people. They're going to be in the history books, but they do have a dog in the
18:54race. You're different in that you know them. You work with them. They probably look up to you. But you're taking a a different You're saying, "Hold on a second. I know disruption when I see it. Look at my look at my life. I'm Bill Gates. I'm saying this could be too much disruption." You even said in the essay that if you could slow it down, you would because you you just want some of this society to have a chance to adjust, but you don't believe that it can be slowed down. So, we need to
19:20coordinate. I think it's a very big deal. Uh and I think because you don't have a dog in the race, I think you might have real convenient power here. Um I just want to stick with this just a little bit longer. You know, if it really does come down at the end of the day to a Donald Trump and a Xi Jinping, neither of whom, like you said, want bioteterrorism. They definitely don't want to be usurped by, you know, AI companies. Uh, could you call them together? I mean,
19:45if a Bill Gates calls them both, I mean, is it could it be as simple as invite them over? I mean, talk to me about I I I got I'm getting hopeful. Yeah. So, I'll I say in my memo that I'll take individual topics and dive into more specifics. And so before the end of the year I will say on
20:06the the bioteterum risk front particularly what I think the uh review criteria should be uh and the step which is this required monitoring and I think there's a chance uh that you know that could be put into very concrete form. I don't want to go to the Trump level uh unless it's very concrete
20:32because you know you only get so many chances for Trump and she to say okay is this something that doesn't tilt the playing field uh in some unfair way uh is this all to the good and the US has a history since World War II as you said of creating whether it's for currencies or nuclear weapons. This one's new. This one's I would say bigger than any of those. But the world when we
20:58come to them in a benign way and involve them in the dialogue, we the US should be very proud of that strong role. And uh so yes, I I do think uh before the end of the year a couple things about uh how we curb bad outcomes from AI could be under discussion uh for adoption next year. Well, look, I mean, this is one one of the best things I've heard is that you're going to be putting up,
21:25but No, I'm seriously like people you you get freaked out, man. I get scared. I look at all this stuff on my my Instagram will have you climbing under the bed. So, the idea No, same here. And that's that's not good. Yeah. So, you got to put some real mind share toward, you know, developing some solutions and move them over. Let's just talk about a couple of the concepts in the essay. And I really encourage everybody just read the essay because this is not high science. This is direct,
21:51relatable, understandable by anybody, common sense coming from somebody who people have to take seriously. But one, you put forward an idea that was new to me, which is the idea of the human reserved that there should be some kinds of work, there should be some things in our society that are labeled human reserved. Even if a robot could do it cheaper, faster, humans should do it. Can you describe this concept and and and some of the kinds of work that you think are I mean it felt
22:19like almost sacred for people? Yeah. So um you know I think you know being a jury, being a judge, uh you know certain elements in the world of art, uh taking care of children, uh maybe food preparation, uh certain aspects of education, you know, where you're talking to a kid about their
22:45motivation and what they they want to do with their life. Uh I I see lots of jobs that we should want want humans to do. You know, some areas like do you want a human to drive your cab? You know, it looks like people actually in that case prefer not to have a human and and so you know, I don't think, you know, we'll jam that uh just for the economic benefit. I think it's mostly about human
23:15relations and you can say okay what part of the job market is that if you could get it up to 40 or 50%. Then the idea of you know slightly uh shorter work week or earlier retirement then you can imagine okay the role of jobs that not are not just economic but give you purpose a way that you connect with other people that that will still be a central piece of how we grow up and how we're
23:41forced to mature uh and have a sense of of our contribution. And so it this is a new concept. I haven't seen it anywhere. know because I see the robots coming or the power of the AIS, you know, I'm I'm able to say we we've got to make the decision now, right? And I don't think it'll slow down the AI industry because it'll still leave a lot of things that uh they can do fantastic work
24:09on. I like the language and I like the leadership because it gives people a chance to sort of, you know, people do from the Pope all the way down feel like there's something special that's going to get run over by robots and bots and we're all just going to be sitting around hoping that the robots give us a handout check which does not seem like a great way to live. You know, right now if you wanted to have a robot do all this type of stuff, you'd have to be a rich person to do it.
24:31But you can imag but but you can imagine Oh, good point. that it flips where the robots, you know, where talking to humans become almost a luxury. You can imagine a world where there's so many robots doing stuff that, you know, everybody's in a classroom with robots and the only rich kids get to play human teachers. So, there's a lot to work out here, but I love this idea of the human reserve uh category. Look, in the time we've got left, and let me just talk about all the stuff in
24:57your essay that people might be still worried about. You talk about the need for a better, stronger safety net, but as we've already kind of bumped into, people don't just want a check.
25:10They don't just want their robot rebate. You know, people do want something, right, uh, to do and to feel meaningful. And you, all the work you've done in Africa, you talk a little bit about your understanding about the importance of human agency, the important of human dignity that we don't lose that in this process. I think uh there's some benefits to the current world where the demand for jobs is high and it creates the incentive for learning and
25:39finding the thing that that you really like to do and we actually you know kind of tax labor uh you know and treat capital well uh but you know in this new era that that's another thing that we're going to have to go back and look that in Africa the lack of doctors and teachers is so extreme that you know taking the healthcare workers there are and making them more productive
26:08uh even raising the quality of what they can do you know say the patient has uh in their native language a discussion with the AI before they come in then you know that just saves a ton of time and you can decide you know when visits are necessary so I was in Rwanda Hondaa uh a few weeks ago seen the early work to both help the patients and uh those healthcare workers.
26:36Uh and so the Gates Foundation a lot of our focus is on the good stuff. you know, help that farmer, help that student, uh, help that patient, you know, get a level of care that without AI would be decades before the they would have the economic development to have what we in relatively well of countries, okay, with lots of things we need to improve. But, you know, they're they're 20 years
27:04away from even where we are today. And as you say AI uh market forces will make it available to the rich countries, rich companies, rich people. And the last thing it you know could take a long time to get out to other people. So from the beginning to have a a philanthropic uh lens on this and say what about the farmer who has the least help today because the AI we can make it so cheap.
27:35the idea of letting them talk about their plants and send a photo in of what might be going on, you know, that can literally cost a few cents, but you know, change that person's life. Their kids are wellnourished. Uh, and so the good side of this is really amazing. Yeah. I mean, I I love that and that you're really putting your money where your mouth is, literally in terms of the Gates Foundation, uh, using AI for good, like you said, helping the farmers, helping everyone. And I
28:03think that's another reason why I think you doing this is going to be very important because I think you've got the ability to bring you know different kind of people different perspectives together.
28:11You know, one of the things that people that I talk to worry about is things like ownership, control, power, like even if everybody gets to sort of be consulted, who should own the data, the people who, you know, created the data, the people who put it into the LM there going to be, I would imagine, a lot as as you move forward trying to get this, they're going to be some serious questions around power, ownership, control. Do you think those are valid concerns
28:40for people to have at the grassroots level? Oh, absolutely. I I think they've got to make sure that they find the right outlet, though. You know, just saying don't build the data center, there may be local reasons why that's appropriate. But don't think you're going to stop AI by just protesting the data center. That's like saying, you know, climate change will be stopped if I just
29:04protest oil company, you know, annual meetings. you know, we really have to do the hard work to to prevent the harms. Uh, you know, we could have the the wealth in society could be out of balance uh because of this stuff. And you know, so I I I say to the industry, the people in it, you know,
29:28unless you're participating in the discussions of those solutions, there's a chance that, you know, when you get unemployment caused by AI, somebody could just brute force shut this whole thing down, the good with the bad, uh, if if we're not smart about it. And, you know, I think we see signs of that emerging. So, yes, power imbalance here will lead to a a sort of a political backlash
29:56bigger than we've ever seen. Yeah. Well, look, I I'm excited about what you're doing. I'm looking forward to the next things that you're writing. Um, and I just want to say before we close, just a couple of words of appreciation. Now, I learned something about you, uh, which is that you're color blind. Uh, not not in the Dr. King sense of the word. You're literally color blind. Uh, so I want to point out to you, you may not be aware of this. I'm actually black. I'm African-American.
30:23So, uh, as an African-American, uh, I just want to say you have probably saved more black lives, uh, than any living person, at least you and your teams. When you talk about having cut the death rate of of black babies in Africa in half in half. That itself is such an extraordinary accomplishment. And everybody said it was impossible. And you figure out a way to get it done. And I just want to thank you. I mean, to me, you know, just again, as a father
30:52of four black babies, uh that by itself puts you on the Mount Rushmore, Mount Rushmore, and they're going to tell you this is impossible, and it's not impossible. Uh I think it can be done. I think you're well on your way. Uh so, thank you on behalf of a bunch of worried parents. This AI stuff is scary as heck, but it's a little bit less scary today because of Bill Gates. Thank you, brother. Let's keep talking. Great to talk to you. Yes, sir. We continue. Van Jones on Substack.
