0:00I've been converting my brain wave signals into a genomic sequence. Yeah. One way in which I'm not interested in being machine readable is for me the work that I'm doing is about my own learning in a way.
0:13So I don't want to be machine executable. Why would I want to build a system that takes away takes away the thing I love the most from me, you know?
0:23So and I and I can say to this day I draw more than I ever have. For me it's about extended authorship. It's much more heroay than hinton.
0:32In the 3rd century, a Chinese court official named Jong Yao invented a technique that would define calligraphy for the next 2,000 years. He called it Dwen, the pause, a deliberate moment of pressure where the brush presses down, holds, and then lifts or redirects. It was a way of encoding intention into the stroke itself. Not just where the mark goes, but the weight of the decision before it moves. No original works by Jong Yao survive.
1:07What survived was the technique itself, passed from hand to hand for 18 centuries. The pause became a kind of inherited intelligence, embodied, transmitted, alive. Suen Chong recently discovered they are one of Jong Yao's direct descendants and in recursions a 10-meter scroll performed live at Art Basel Hong Kong with two robotic arms guided by EEG data. The pause returns in a new form not in the wrist but in the brainwave threshold that tells the robot when to
1:51act. Suen has been building toward this for more than a decade. Not in theory, in ink. Raised between Toronto and Hong Kong, trained at the MIT Media Lab, and an artist and residence at Bell Labs and Google, Chung has argued for something more demanding than AI art. that the machine can be a collaborator, that error can be generative, that technology
2:19can reveal as much about the human as it does about itself. They believe that to extend agency, we must understand the human sensorium and how technology changes what humans experience as we move through the world. In 2022, the Victorian Albert Museum acquired memory, making it the first AI model collected by a major cultural institution. In 2023, Tang Chung one of the hundred most
2:49influential people in AI. Today's conversation is less about whether machines can make art than about what artists can teach us about living with intelligent systems. Suen Chung is an artist, researcher, and founder of Solicit. Welcome, Suen. So, I've been looking forward to this since getting exposed to your art when we were in Solo at the Coochinelli event.
3:18Yes. And so, thank you for joining us on Possible.
3:22Your father was an opera singer and your mother a computer programmer.
3:26Yeah. When did you realize that it wasn't choosing one of the inheritance the the kind of parenting but but but blending this together?
3:36I love that question because I think it's it's really hard to choose between your parents and I think early on um we all realize it's probably best not to.
3:45Uh so in in that way um you we were brought up with both languages uh in our household. And I think when you learn something from early childhood uh development and from those experiences they become really part of the fabric of how you think about things, how you cognate, how you express. Um so I don't think there was ever really a moment in which I chose one side or the other. Um I grew up playing violin and piano but also learning how to code. we had computers from a young age. So, it
4:15always felt really natural. Um, at the same time, I always thought that maybe through that and maybe because I'm kind of a quiet person in general, I always thought that there's something that art and performance that those mediums could express that language couldn't. So, I just very much veered towards those directions.
4:32Out of curiosity, because this is one of the things that affected me when I was uh young, um, did you ever read Girdleerbach?
4:40I I'm gonna be quite honest with you. I tried. [laughter] Okay, fair enough. It's like Yeah, it's quite I weaponized it in different ways. I tried and but you'd I'd love for you to tell me about it.
4:52Well, so Huffsetter genius book surprise um things he's writing about human existence and consciousness and whatnot which is part of where the kind of art and AI and all the places we're going.
5:04But it was also the parallels between for example you know Girdleer and Bach. So you play music.
5:12You're, you know, do visual art. You think in computer science. So the same kind of parallels between these systems like how you think the relationship between music and computer programming is kind of a classic. And so that was the reason it occurred to me that maybe you had encountered it.
5:29You know, it's so funny. It's been so much ingrained in my experience. I'm I consider myself an artist and researcher, but I'm I just learn by doing. So I think it's been you know playing violin at such a young age and piano and learning with through instruments but also understanding that there's u a really interesting world of digitization around sound and visual that happens also from a really young age. Um, I think those parallels, um,
5:57and that translation has really been a point of inspiration, of tension, and of curiosity for the work. Um, because they're they're kind of, uh, they're readable in many different forms.
6:09Yeah. No, exactly. Well, we will get to uh various forms of readability. Um, but like it seems that your kind of art practice and what you're building um kind of started with the question of what happens when a robot draws alongside you and so what did you expect and then what did you discover?
6:29That's such a great question. I it it started such a long time ago. It's funny to reflect on something from 10 years ago, 11 years ago. I was thinking through um this moment in 2015, particularly when I was reading an article about Lisa Dole and Alph Go.
6:50And Lisa Dole mentioned in his defeat to Alph Go in the sort of a landmark competition. He mentioned that even in defeat, he was incredibly inspired because he saw the beauty of the nonhuman move. And I that was catalytic for me. That was really really inspiring because the context was he had been defeated uh by a computer system which didn't we we didn't think that was possible because he was the Mozart of the game you know which we all aspired
7:18to um for a game that's been been played for since a time memorial it seems there's a few aspects of that that I found really interesting one as an engineer how do we unpack this idea how do we quantify the beauty of the non-human move is that even a sensical um sort of direction to take artistic or technical development.
7:38Secondly, I thought there was something really as I'm as I'm older and I reflect on these different waves of um AI and and its conceptualization and culture, you're like he's talking about seeing beauty after experiencing defeat.
7:53Um this sort of fatalistic to awe trajectory that was so um so incisive uh and and really uh exciting to me. So at that point in time, I was thinking about uh being a drawer, being a performer and uh drawing through the interface of the computer and the screen and like the mouse and all these things and feeling like the sense of a lack of embodiment to um that translation of my mark into, you know, something that happens on
8:21screen. So I wanted to think about bringing it back into physical space. um what that would mean like I I'm I think it comes from playing violin at a young age and just understanding this expressive gesture. Um I wonder if it comes from my interest in calligraphy as well, this extension of uh the human subject through through the line. Um so yeah, that really was the I think that kernel from Lisa Dole. Um, and I'm not a
8:49very good al go player, YKK player at all, but I think that kernel really made me think that I wanted to explore what the beauty of the nonhuman move was for me.
9:00And and I could achieve that through learning how to build robots and uh and and taking the one thing I knew, drawing, and uh seeing what would come from it. So my area of expertise most people's first impression when they encounter you is like oh what's important is the robot trauma.
9:20Right. But what actually is important is the dynamic and what's happening with the human. Yeah.
9:24So what's been that kind of lessening that that lesson of the dynamic by which the nonhuman move is also incorporated into the human move and then the dance that is your art.
9:36Yeah. I think there's so many things I've learned from engaging in this process durationally.
9:4210 years is not a short amount of time.
9:45We've gone through seven generations of robotic development and artistic development, I would say, where we address different themes and work with different um sensors and different um algorithms to bring a different type of gesture into the form. Um that being said, I think I've learned that there's a lot of beauty in the error state and there's a lot of truth in the uncertainty of the of the mark making.
10:11um that that again it it sometimes people say that the work feels really sci-fi, you know. Um but I I actually always respond with and really believe that there's nothing fictional or speculative about any of the work that I do. It might feel that way, but I'm really trying to um get at the materiality of these systems, at the materiality of the art form, of drawing and of performance.
10:37Uh so I really think there's something more true, not more fictitious about um this idea of drawing and not really understanding what um the system is outputting. There's something very very interesting about the questions that also arise from that which is what is machine readable what where is what isn't what does it mean to draw with one's own historical archives all these all these interesting uh lessons that I've gathered
11:07and what's been part of the journey for you because part of it like one of the things that I think makes art really interesting is that personal quality and so what is the thing like what have you learned you on the journey.
11:21What have I learned? I've learned quite a lot. I know people like to think about optimism or pessimism, but one one thing I learned maybe not about myself, but about art in general is that by engaging with this practice and by engaging with building these systems and understanding oneself as data and then measuring all these things and and trying to make something maybe beautiful or true or gestural from it. It's been a way for me
11:49to hold fear and hope in the mind at the same time because there's a a lot of um speculation around there's a lot of hype and a lot of dystopia around this idea of the human machine. Um it's it been in Hollywood, it's been in uh contemporary media, it's been all over, you know, every major platform is talking, they have some stance of like pure optimism or pure dystopia, it seems. But I think for me what I've learned is that there's
12:18ways to chart out what that actually means for you um and how you live with it in your life uh and how you integrate or not integrate um the things that you really care about into these contemporary systems and models. I love that answer.
12:34And I think the blend of thinking about, you know, to use kind of as a parallel to the yin and yang and as is is what brings the human in honor of your work in the line between.
12:48Yes. There you go. Yeah. I like that.
12:51Is the line between.
12:52Exactly. Um so one of my super weaknesses is pronunciation. So I'm probably going to get this word wrong. Um but um the dwen pause technique. Yeah, the Jun P. Yeah.
13:04Um that your ancestor uh again Zongya.
13:07Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's great.
13:09Um invented in uh 230 CE um survived only because practitioners, right?
13:15Because not necessarily work. So your recursion system carries your gestural archive forward through a neural network. So what does it mean that like what what another line between those another yang is like there's one of the oldest techniques with now one of the newest how would you kind of draw those lines you know I uh there's so much mystery for me in um how we connect to our past
13:45how we in the words of uh Audrey Tang might be good ancestors which I still find very incendiary so what I'm interested in in the recursions um uh system and what I recently showed and performed at Art Basel Hong Kong and um what I've been thinking through is how do we make decisions within a system what direction or proposition that is non-cognitive can I give the system that will allow it to draw or stop right
14:13which is very similar to the pause technique uh performed by and originated by my ancestor and I and those um developments have not been maybe developed in parallel because occupy very different we live in very different times to say it mildly but when I realized that this was my ancestry and my genealogy and um I realized that I've been really developing something that's quite related without that knowledge of
14:41that um of his invention uh I I felt like there was a kind of recursive temporal inheritance happening um because I my interest in calligraphy doesn't come from um a uh an interest in or even the knowledge that this was my ancestor or my interest in drawing was very almost innate from when I was very young. But when I learned about this overlap, um I'm I'm excited and kind of nervous to talk about it because it it
15:11felt so apt, it felt so layered and interesting. Um I've been working with uh my own archival data and bringing up my you know my parentage when I think about my practice. Um, and it was it was exciting to relate something as um ancient and as substantive as calligraphy to the marks that I'm making with my performative gestures.
15:34That's awesome. And one of the things that you said uh recently is to become a machine collaborator, you've had to become machine readable.
15:45So I want to come back to this because you were you've gestured a couple times the readability. It feels much more of a of a gesture at modern life, right, through art. So, so say a little bit about like how you you've had to make yourself machine readable, what's been the kind of learnings from that?
16:06And and then kind of how does that go to art and then to kind of part of kind of the gesture at the human experience?
16:13Absolutely. So, so, uh, when I I do a little bit of mentorship for different artists and, um, I always talk about like there's so many tools, there's so many opportunities, there's so many possibilities, um, with how we, uh, work or don't work with technology today.
16:30And, and I found like what's the meaning making engine for my own work? It's drawing. It's its most simple. So when I in 2015 decided to uh train a return neural network on two decades of my drawing data, I was like this is the thing I care about. This is the thing I know. This is the thing I understand in in my bones. Um what does it mean to digitize that work from the level of volume? Like what is the labor involved?
16:56What are the challenges? What uh for instance in that very specific example at that point you couldn't get and maybe that's why I'm obsessed with time but you couldn't get the pauses of the gesture. You would only be able to read the drawing as a sort of finished image that you need to reverse engineer. So a lot of the decision-making pathways of the data are not available because we because it's just not um so I developed from then a tool that allowed me to
17:26trace the pauses to trace the time to put the time back in the data of drawing and and in that way it's been really rewarding for me to think through the nuts and bolts of what makes art or what makes art not machine readable and what parts are readable and legible. to the system and what parts aren't and what parts do we want to be legible to the system and and what parts don't we want to be legible. So that's been really educational. that's been
17:56really grounded because I think a lot of the times uh I think fear comes from this sense of of um a lack of specificity cuz you're just a afraid of uh all of it especially when it comes to uh machines replacing artists and that uh automation cycle. So um in that way it's given me a real um sense of grounding and also this idea that I can train my own muscle memory um by working by putting what is machine readable in
18:24my drawing um back uh towards the space of the canvas as a collaborator.
18:30So you make yourself very machine readable. Is there anything you want to not make machine readable and and kind of where is that kind of I don't know if it's negative space but all alternative or human space anything in that thread.
18:46Yeah. So I think often times and I I think we'll we'll get to um some issues of like uh human presence versus not later on too. But one one way in which I'm not interested in being machine readable is for me the work that I'm doing is about my own learning in a way.
19:05So I don't want to be machine executable maybe is the the right word. So I think there's a lot of ex uh uh artists and and projects that extend personal data into a dry machine. We've seen that quite a lot. There's a lot of art historical precedents for it. Um, and sometimes people think that's what I'm interested in doing, but for me it's really about creating the conditions of relation and the feedback loop between
19:33human and machine. So I'm never creating or designing or authoring myself out of the equation. Um, and and that's been my north star because I don't want why would I want to build a system that takes away takes away the thing I love the most from me, you know? So, and I and I can say to this day I draw more than I ever have and I also work have worked with these systems and uh for for maybe a little
20:01bit longer than a lot of people. So, I think there's a world where both can exist. So, well, 2015 is definitely well before most people had realized an AI revolution was coming.
20:12Yeah. People, I think, thought I was uh they were a little bit concerned, but I was making this project because it wasn't it it wasn't in the dialogue at the time. It was a very different like real-time graphics maybe starting to be a little bit of gaming interest, but um but that feedback loop has been at the center of what I'm curious about for a long time. Well, the other aspect of this, you know, kind of putting the timing back in.
20:38Is that LMS's neural networks are actually pretty bad at concepts of time, right? Like if you That's so true.
20:44Yes. And so so say a little bit about the temporal experience because that's actually one of the places where again where you kind of say well what is quintessentially human in the in the place between and the expression and the dance could say a little bit about that temporal element and what you've learned on that when I brought this idea of time and that pause in was when I started working with EEG and that was during the pandemic cuz I did not want to draw
21:12anymore. Uh it was it was quite you know it was a dark time for everyone. I think I think a lot of creative people and a lot of artists and and and just people in general felt quite unored to say it mildly. Um so I I really went to meditation to um as not a creative outlet but just a existential outlet maybe and I wanted to train a way um to enhance and deepen my sense of um the the alpha state
21:41threshold uh uh which is the state that you're in when you are in deep meditation. So I wanted to create a configuration that allowed me to do that. Um, so I actually developed the system, the spectral system. Um, paints only when I'm at that alpha state threshold and it doesn't when I'm not, which maybe for for the tradition of meditation, maybe that's somewhat blasphemous, [laughter] but I found it was a nice way of enacting a nonconcious
22:09type of control that wasn't gestural.
22:12Um, and control is not really the right word here, but maybe understanding propreception. Um and and I use that to to make a pause um meaningful and sort of sensible. And I found um I don't know how it is for you, but I think creativity happens in the silence or imagination and real reflection happens in the quiet and the pauses. And uh I'm not surprised sometimes that some of these LMS don't really understand
22:42that even in in that feedback loop between um human and system. There needs to be I was joking with a a friend of mine today about you know wouldn't it be nice to just sit in silence there's so much there's so much that can happen in those pregnant pauses that um I really wanted to bring that back into the data set and back into the space of uh drawing. So that's awesome. So what have you had to quantify about yourself and then what have you, if anything, have you
23:10deliberately kind of held back to protect yourself in your work?
23:15I try to restrict myself to movement, whether that's my own electrical signal movement or my uh or my gestro movement.
23:25Um I do so because it's a constraint that creates a lot of adaptations that I find really interesting. I like that constraint because I build my world through movement and line and I also I'm interested in writing and speech and image, but that's a very different thing. I love the focus of seeing what I'm made of in movement. And is there any is there anything that you've begun thinking about since you're both a
23:54program thinker and also a um you know like an experience thinker where a language of that movement.
24:03I'm starting to think about what that might look like actually. Um but it it almost feels like notation plus you know I I show the work and the data set as its own art piece. I've been converting my brain wave signals into faster format, like a genomic sequence.
24:21So, I'm really starting to play with what what that encoding looks like. I think it's super interesting, but I just know that it's maybe I have too much respect for the uh for language and maybe poetry, but I like keeping almost text. I love that like inscription version of thinking about text versus like a more verbal uh version of it. So, yeah. No, I I look forward to your extending that line and drawing that line. Um, so you have this uh drawing
24:49operations unit generation series um you know robotic systems trained on your gestural archive which we've been talking about uh built to draw with you then simply execute a command. I don't know if you refer to it as Doug deliberately. Um is it a personification? Is it like what what's with how the name and then how the name becomes also part of that that kind of nonhuman gesture along with the human gesture.
25:16You know, that has really changed a lot through time. Um, and I missed those playful days sometimes because I think in the beginning, um, I've been thinking about anthropomorphization.
25:27Um, I was thinking about that quite a lot in the early days cuz I didn't know so much about how anything really worked. Um, I have more of a um, computer science background, not a robotics background at the time. So, a lot of these kinematic levers I didn't really understand yet. I just projected a lot onto the system. And drawing operations unit generation one Doug one sounds a little bit like Suwen. And it felt very cheeky. It kind of felt
25:54playful. It felt weird. Um, it brought a lot of strange dimension to the first experiment that I think was such a gift looking back because I'm I think the work can be really serious, but there is a playfulness to it that sometimes we don't get to have in our everyday. You know, we talk about these big topics about humanity and machines and the future of work. And there was a playfulness in the very beginning that I really still um
26:22enjoyed. maybe a playful ignorance cuz I did anthropomorphize quite a lot and everyone joined in. We had gallery curators and museum staff being like, "How's Doug?" Um, and and I still love that actually. Um, but it's given it's given another entry point to um robotic development to um uh this this dialogue that I'm I still really cherish. Is there anything in the in this play because I do there's a you're probably familiar there's a there's multiple
26:52theories of it's not homo sapiens it's like homoludance like we're playing is there anything in that play that has illustrated for you both kind of uh some aspects of human humanity and some access of like and like as it were machine readability and interaction.
27:12Sure. Sure. I think this this particular um maybe projection has taught me a lot more about art than than developing robots actually because I I talked about how these systems are us in another form and I I don't how do I phrase this? I think so much of that um early conception of Doug as a sort of discrete unit was very much my own projection and
27:41that's what people bring to the work as well and I feel like that's a deeply human trait. I think it's one that comes from empathy. It is one that comes from imagination.
27:51uh and and so much and so much of the work it's like this machinic other that's of my design and authorship and creation that that I think can be a really beautiful thing. I think that's what art is, you know, that's what artists bring to their their mediums. Um and the same can be uh said for robotics as well.
28:12Yeah. And so one of the beautiful I think expressions and another maybe I'm over overusing the gesture metaphor but I love it. Uh I'm here for it.
28:23Yes. Um but one of the things is the earliest Doug uh introduced some deviation. Uh and your response was to say no this is poeticizing error.
28:35Say a little bit more about that. And that phrase of poet poeticizing error is something that I think I may, you know, plagiarize.
28:43Yeah, please do. Please do. Um, you heard it here first. Uh, no. I I really do think it was such a gift that first generation because I I don't I don't think I really knew what I was doing when I first started performing this interaction, this drawing with Doug uh in 2015 in a dark basement with a quite janky robot actually. Um, and and and when I think about poeticizing the error, it was a gift that came from the fact that I
29:12performed it live as one of its first iterations. And it it was a gift that came from the audience because in tech development, you don't poeticize error. It's always a bug. It's not a feature.
29:26Um, but in in that performative moment, I knew I wanted to explore something very real and gestural and responsive. But when things didn't work according to the simulation that I had uh uh sort of on the side uh people really responded to it to that moment that error with a lot of empathy with a lot of delight.
29:51Um and that was a really strange spectacle at the moment in the moment as a performer.
29:56Um because we were all kind of hallucinating through this sort of machinic other in a way. Um, but as a visual artist and as a developer, I realized that if there wasn't error in that interaction, it would be really uninteresting because I would have nothing to adapt to and it would just be um the first generation was a m a mirroring of my own gestures. So without that error distortion, it was sort of like an artistic style of the robot at
30:24the time. um it made it quite dynamic and um that really gave me a lot of permission to develop more ambitiously and widely because I'm like if if something that's barely working can spark all these creative ideas for myself and for an audience um then there's really something here that's really potent. Yeah. And and how if you've given any thought to this would you uh help other people generalize using art as a lead
30:53whether it's other human interaction with chat bots maybe with hallucinations right uh labs is what they're trying to do in alignment training how would you say hey uh echoing forward this art this gesture of poeticizing error here's a good way for people to think about how to approach their own interactions with AI.
31:17I think a lot of that comes from a little bit building from the ground up.
31:21There's a lot of optimization that can happen when you use more of these maybe proprietary and off-the-shelf tools. But I think when you really think from the ground up, you can think about more sustainable materials for uh different types of sensory development. You can think about low cost, low compute models. And then you can think really have a a stronger dialogue with um the artistic intent which is always going to you know I've I've been saying lately that artists are great at breaking
31:49things and when you break things you sort of separate what's really essential from what's necessary and and find new directions. So I think there's something about building from the ground up and and you know working with people who think quite outside of um an engineering format which can sometimes be artists.
32:07Oh, exactly. Um, so if you had one afternoon with the heads of the Frontier AI labs, what's a habit or a practice from the art studio that you would want them to try?
32:20I really believe in embracing uncertainty. I think there's something much more true in not knowing what you're doing in a way and uh and I think build something that's made to be broken and interesting at the same time. So most AI teams optimize for capability, speed, engagement, depth of knowledge.
32:44So what's the what's another interesting metric from kind of a human machine system from your and an artist perspectives? is like is it more agency, more attention, more of that, you know, kind of the the the the dynamic of of mutual readability. What would be some like in addition to the kind of the because you
33:13also of course have an engineers mindset, you understand the classic thing, but what's the what's like some kind of um other things that you would say put these in your feedback functions?
33:27Sure. Sure. Uh, you know, that's a great question. Um, and maybe it's it's so um organically coming from our conversation that thinking about reduction, thinking about pauses, what happens. I think when you feel like as a developer you can build anything, then you you may not really know where you're going, right? You don't have that intention. And I think there's something about reduction, pauses, silence that that can be its own feature and can be
33:53its own um characteristic of of how we build these loops.
33:59A pause um a moment of silence or maybe even a reduction of functionality in order to get, you know, the user to input differently cuz right now it feels like everything's vast. It's a magic a magic machine.
34:14Yes. But that I think there's something really powerful and unexpected in that reduction.
34:18Yeah. And actually some something also like in the kind of dance I could also see is like there probably is some pattern where it isn't just take a chatbot you prompt and it just gives you an answer kind of like a vending machine but does something else that adds a little bit of variability and a little bit of difference and a little bit of you know like a something of a dance move into the equations
34:46and and sort of like what's a What's a low or no stimulation response that that can initiate or instigate something really surprising in like not the user I don't like that terminology but you know the the partner or whatnot that I think it's unexplored because it's not the temporal register we really exist in in 2026 but I think it's something we're all craving. Well,
35:15speaking of words, um you describe uh your work as operational art.
35:23And and say a little bit about why the the the the naming difference is important and and kind of what should someone see from that.
35:32Sure. Yeah. So, I'm I've been thinking through this. I'm building it out as I go, like I do everything. Um and it really comes from drawing operations and the the 10year journey it's been the 10year journey it will be um and knowing that it's been really this um set of protocols it's been different types of data it's been different experiences that have gone into the building of a much wider system
36:02or operation um that really drives what I think of as operational art. I think in that you can thread together. It's a little bit like systems art for 2026.
36:12Um, in that we recognize that there are so many different um loops that all artists um and people uh uh are um it all these different loops that people interweave to author their work. There's research with um obviously different agents. There's drawing. There's programming, there's robotics, there's all these um spheres that layer onto a
36:40wider practice. So, I'm still trying to figure out the language for this um thinking of operational art, but it's one that's meant to be inclusive of and a rejection of these traditional and technological differences and just thinking about it all as a series of operations. So, yeah.
36:58No, makes sense. Um so uh in spectral uh the robot's not just responding to you but participating in the production.
37:11Um so it's much more co-regulation than assistance. So um what is that preview about where we think AI systems might be going and whether and I think your answer is going to be both whether we should be excited or alarmed by it. But what given the earlier things, my guess is you're going to say some version of both.
37:32Yeah. I I think I love that you use the word co-regulation because I think there is this um intertwining of these systems in our nervous system like that we're we may not be fully aware of yet. I'm exploring that in how I link my uh robotic system to my EEG. Um, but there are ways in which we can co-regulate, but there are ways in which working with these feedback loops can also really disrupt. So, it's a little bit from
38:01column A, a little bit from column B. Um, but I do think, uh, that's the direction we're heading.
38:08Um, and it's useful to be mindful of it, but also understand that we can create configurations that deepen experiences we want, like meditation and like drawing. Well, like the alpha state for the drawing. Yeah. So, um is there anything? So, some people say, "Oh, AI is just a tool."
38:30Is there anything that you would say, "No, no, this is the important thing you need to understand beyond just a tool."
38:36We've always as a species evolved through our practices and our tools. Our tools are not just I think and that's something that artists know.
38:45A paintbrush is not just a paintbrush.
38:46It is something that we profoundly become through and express through and we create our reality through these paint brushes and through these words and through these conversations. So um so in that way I see a vast horizon of possibility when it comes to breaking apart and exploring our own ways of making tools. um that I think there is the making component that I'm quite maybe bullish on which is that
39:16I think when you work with any tool you work with someone else's system and I really love building my own systems and tools for expression because that's where all the that's where all the meat of it is that's where all the curiosity is for me it's not shifting from platform to platform because of the promise of automation of certain tasks that really makes for creative um excitement for me and [clears throat] you know one of the things the the co-regulation
39:45like when it's a dance and when you have the kind of the the you know kind of the the joint participation you know has a kind of a I know a beauty one in your own work do you ever worry that that that kind of creates any missteps in the dance maybe it's just poeticizing error and then two is given that most people are going to use AI systems that they're not creating, right? What is the nature of that dance?
40:11And like people worry about whether or not it's manipulation of course, etc. And and any, you know, kind of thoughts or reflections on that.
40:21Yeah. I think it's it's what one thing I found really fascinating about presenting the work in this way through the lens of performance is that there's a lot of projection from other people that comes. Sometimes people think that I'm um in love with the robot. Sometimes people think that I'm its mother. Like, but those are all reflections pe that people bring onto the work. Um, I don't know if I think about it as a dance really. I think of it as a gestural co-negotiation in some ways, but there's a lot of tension in the performance of
40:51Um, there's a lot of error in the performance of the work. um it that I think really um communicates more of what it actually is to work with some of these tools which is it's not always harmony at sometimes it's psychosis you know and I think it's good to keep in mind um both for me in the work it's a way to remind myself of that um in performance there's a lot at stake um within that frame so I think part of
41:20what the work brings is is that kind of reality what do you think is the most challenging thing people get wrong when they think about AI is just a tool.
41:32People think that tools AI tools are static, but they're not. They're adaptive.
41:38And we're also adapting to this tool that's constantly changing. So, I think it's about understanding that process of mutual adaptation and dynamism towards the future that we want.
41:51Awesome. Oh, I totally agree. Um, one of the things also that I've been very curious to ask you about, um, so you've said that working with AI has made you aware of the limits of the human sensorium.
42:06And that, um, you know, things like climate solutions may require a broader, more interconnected way of sensing than our bodies alone provide.
42:18I I have to credit Ed Young a little bit with this because it's um it's obviously working with these tools and understanding that um different uh like cameras can see in infrared and we can't but so can dogs like there's a a vast human sensorium that we can um sense through sense synthetically synthetically we can sense synthetically
42:43um that uh also exists in um non-human animal species for instance. Um and I think that's a really humbling way of thinking about our own faculties, our own sensory apparatus, knowing it's our limitations, knowing that um we only see the world in a really specific way as a species even beyond the cultural lenses that kind of divide us.
43:08Um I think that's really humbling. It's really exciting. But it's also as a as a person, not even as an artist or engineer. I think knowing that we want to uncover and explore radically different ways of sensing and sense making in order to have a a a broader view of what it means to be in this present moment.
43:33And so if if you were kind of saying like here is the way policy makers or other folks, would you have them like kind of uh come do a performance like the ones you do to watch a performance to do almost socialist theater and participate in a performance? What would the be the way to kind of um try to broaden that human sensorium
44:02to this kind of interconnectedness?
44:03I think we it's quite imaginative.
44:08I think some of these suggestions even thinking about the s the human sensorium is incredibly meta, you know, uh and and I love it. But and I really do believe this. I've um as an artistic practitioner, as an artist, I think artists are also trying to pull the the threads of our reality a little bit, extend that sensorium in their own ways.
44:31there's a a lot of imagination around that that I think really this is going to sound like such a copout because of my position but I think really really engage with with art and artistic practice because I think artists are always are are already existing on kind of a different plane. It makes artists be thought of as outliers or divergent or or deviant or whatever. But I think that way of thinking beyond what is
45:00known is very much a mandate of the form of the practice and I think engaging with that is uh a way to expand that a little bit.
45:10No, exactly. And and like one of the other things about your work is um because of an emp focus on empathy and care um and obviously with machines people find that a little strange because they go well the machine doesn't have empathy. the machine is mechanical etc.
45:26Yeah. Yeah. What are some of the what's the kind of surface of this where this kind of you know co-regulation sure helps the lens on empathy and care you know I I sometimes think it's really about the development of the human subject in a way it's you don't care about something because not always because you want to affect a change in in that entity because they could know
45:53it or not or whatever you you you you create these loops, you know, to enact that sense in you. And I think we need more mechanisms for enacting that empathy engine in ourselves. Um, and I I genuinely really believe that we need more systems like that because we have a lot of anxiety producing engines already. There's other there alternatives that um can be about
46:21empathy, care, awareness, expanding the sensorium. There's a lot of different um yeah ways to engage.
46:28I mean you you you bring a number of different fusions together in your art. So there's a kind of the fusion. It's not just drawing, it's time. The fusion is not just human, it's ahuman. It's it's it's a question between human and machine and what is the uh you know the kind of the nonhuman or ahuman gesture in this and and part of it is also performance.
46:51But you know obviously there's a there's a number of different places where your art will you know does your practice does end up. It's you know museum the fair etc.
47:05Is there anything in these shift of modalities that you think something gets lost?
47:12Yeah. and and where is that kind of like that that sense of that lost space and what's the what's the thing that people should pay attention to there?
47:21It's really interesting actually because we're I'm thinking through that exact question a lot and I don't have an answer but I how I would um frame it for what I'm interested in exploring is this idea of the human presence um as something that is felt without the human my presence being there. I talk about collaboration. I talk about coesthetic systems and this sort of relational mode that I've been building with the system.
47:48It almost demands that the and you asked this question earlier too that the person be kind of in standing in my shoes inside the loop. We're still figuring out how to bring that into the space of installation because I can't be there all the time, you know.
48:04Um I think one person, one body.
48:06Yeah, exactly. But the system is built for it. I think maybe that might be the next 10 years of thinking how we can um I don't really like the word interactive but how we can bring in the h human presence into the work a little bit more um that sense of time a little bit more and I think there's this type of fragility there too because human bodies are inherently fragile so um it's definitely I don't necessarily think of it as a problem to solve but if it is it's not one that we've solved quite yet
48:34but we're working on it so I think if I've gotten this right one of the things you've said is these um systems don't possess an agency in a mystical sense um but they reflect back our choices, our biases and knowledge. Do I have that right? And how would you elaborate or change what I just said?
48:55You know, I I think a lot of times um when I started using the sort of phrase human and machine collaboration like a very long time ago, it didn't mean what maybe people think it means now. Um I think a lot of times when people think about we you talked about mysticism um collaboration they think that the implication is like robotic or machine extensions and that's not my implication. That's not how I'm evoking that word. For me it's about extended authorship. It's much more heroay than hinton if you
49:24would. You know, it's this idea that we are not just single authors of our own journeys, but we are a collection of all that came before and all that will come. Not not at the risk of sounding too poetic, but you know, I am a product of two parents with these interests of two cultures and that's really informed how I think of everything really. And uh and in that way um uh yeah, that's how I think about collaboration and this extension of authorship uh in the work. One of the
49:54things that I was particularly interested in in this is how does that kind of change either your sense of agency or how we should think about human agency.
50:05You know, it links back to this idea of the human sensorium, right? Because our agency comes from our ability to sense the world and make sense of the world around us. I feel like those ideas are really linked. So if we can expand our in our own sensorium, we can expand our sense of agency because we have more information to work with. We're fundamentally changing beings when we expand what we can perceive.
50:30Awesome. Uh so rapid fire section. Is there a movie, song or book that fills you with optimism for the future?
50:37There is a book by Emanuel Kochia about metamorphosis. I'm reading a lot about metamorphosis these days because I'm doing a project on silkworms and Coochia extends metamorphosis to all creatures beyond the caterpillar um and really makes this claim. It's almost kind of Buddhist in a way that we are all experiencing metamorphosis and are all part of this larger metamorphic cycle that um is really grounded in uh in
51:06science but also really really exciting philosophically.
51:09That doesn't surprise me given the [laughter] the, you know, the human and machine uh co-regulation. And I will, it's first time I've ever heard of that book. I'm going to go get it.
51:20Yes, please. Please. I I'd love to send it to you, actually.
51:23Um, awesome. Um, what's a question that you wish people would ask you more often?
51:30I wish people would ask me what happens when things go wrong.
51:34Because I think a lot of times people believe that it's only about the good days. It's only about when there's harmony in the interaction. I think a lot of what the work has come from has been a sense of tension, has been this error state, has been this um this groundedness in in the reality of of co-creation that I wish people would ask asked me about more.
51:56And where do you see progress or momentum outside of your industry? Well, let's call that art, robotics, and AI that inspires you. You know, I am doing a lot of research into silk proteins and the uh discovery that they allow for technology to be biompatible with the human body, which I think raises a lot of really interesting existential questions about where the human m uh
52:24begins and the machine ends because there's a there's a layer there that we're really uncovering. Um, I'm also really interested in um, robotics and medicine.
52:36There's a lot of really powerful work in robotic surgery that has saved a lot of lives. That is a really good example of allowing for the specificity of robotic movement to um, really enact uh, human intention um, which is saving lives. So I thought that was really beautiful. Oh, I completely agree. So, can you leave us with a final thought on what you think is possible to achieve if everything breaks humanity's way in the next 15
53:04years and what's our first step to set off on that journey?
53:08It's a really beautiful question. Um, and I was thinking about another piece of media that I really love, this film um that's based off a short story by Ted Chang called Story of Your Life, Arrival. And I love that. I love that movie because in it uh in when um Amy Adams, fellow Canadian, when her character learns the language of the aliens, it expands her conception of time and it actually gives her this um
53:37expanded awareness and gift that um that that she then teaches to the rest of the world. And I think there's something about education and learn learning and inhabiting practice that I would love to see um learning the language of different species and technologies that allow for a broader worldview.
53:57That is really awesome. And by the way, I also um love that work. I uh made a point I was at a conference last month that Ted was at. So I made a point to go meet him.
54:09Oh, really? Incredible. Was he cool?
54:11He was cool. Totally worth it.
54:14That's very cool. I hope to meet him one day as well.
54:16Uh well, easy enough to facilitate. So, um so it's been an honor and a pleasure and it's our likewise call it our first gesture at a conversation.
54:26Sounds wonderful. Looking forward to the next one.
54:29All right. Thank you, Reed.
54:30Possible is produced by Pallet Media.
54:32It's hosted by Araf Finger and me, Reed Hoffman. Our showrunner is Sha Young. Possible is produced by Tanasiados, Katie Sanders, Spencer Stramore, Emozu, Amansuri, Lexi, Kevin, Danny Garrison, Trent Barbosza, and Todd Neimarunway.
54:48Special thanks to Surya Yalamanchi, Sida, Sepa, Ian, Alice, Greg, Biato, Parth Patil, and Ben Relis. And a big thanks to Natalie Stone, Tessa Naidam, Arena Irmakova, the Silicet team, Fellowship Reaw, and the team at Mosaic Ventures for hosting the conversation.