0:00America is helping to build this technology and yet Americans are among the most worried about it.
0:05So I actually think AI inclusion in the hiring process will broadly be much better. You want to return to manufacturing strength in the US? AI and robotics is your only hope.
0:16What do you think changes when the advertising platform is also this assistant that you're supposed to trust and use to make really important decisions in your life? Reed, so thrilled to be chatting with you today as always.
0:30So let's get right into it. AI optimism, do people like it? Do they not? We saw that last month Gallup and Microsoft released findings from a survey of adults in 37 countries and this was about their awareness, use, and views of AI. And one of their major findings was among people aware of AI, positive feelings outweighed negative ones in 34 of those countries. That was a big surprise to me, but what was not a surprise was that the US is an
0:59exception. 74% of AI-aware Americans feel worried and only 36% expect AI to mostly help their country. And that's compared to 93% of people in China who think AI is mostly going to help them. And so across countries, the median share who had never used AI is also 57%. So Reed, America is helping to build this technology and yet Americans are among the most worried about it.
1:27What do you think explains this gap?
1:29We're the ones who build it. We have high adoption and yet we are not excited about it.
1:34I think there's three things.
1:36Um one, I think there's a general um call it concern, fear, worry that the future is going to be less good than the now and that AI is just an amplification of that. Like I think even before AI, there was that worry. Partially because I think that, you know, we've done a not great job uh as a country, of bringing call it the majority of the country along on our economic prosperity and
2:04and how to make sure that that you know, kind of maybe the simplest way of putting it is make sure we get the middle class a raise in in the work and jobs and opportunities they're doing. I think the second thing is that generally speaking, when you have technological waves, the people who already, in their own minds, feel like challengers versus incumbents, are benefited from that.
2:30So, it's kind of not surprising that when you go to China, which which is, you know, viewing its growing its economics and feels that it's, you know, kind of coming on strong to create, you know, a whole number of industries, some of which already very successfully, but even, for example, when you get to the global south, the primary thing that their request is around AI is make sure we're included. We don't want to have this be economic prosperity um for other people and not for us. So, make sure we're included.
2:59But, you know, since, you know, the the US has been the richest country in the world, it tends to have more of an incumbent perspective, even though historically, you know, we psychologically identify more with the challenger in terms of, you know, growing our industries, growing a new country, etc., etc. But, we're like, I think people are like, "Whoa, we don't want to lose what we have." So, I think that's the second part of the kind of the American psychology. And then, the third
3:28is that we have, and this is kind of classic when you get to the kind of shadow ages of empires, whether it's Rome or England or now for us Americans, there's a lot more internal uh dispute. It's like, "Well, if there's going to be an AI, you know, boon, who is it going to benefit? Is it going to benefit me or benefit you?" And you're not focused on the US as a, you know, kind of defining country within the world. It's more like, you
3:57know, um my political tribe versus your political tribe, my region versus your region, my, you know, racial identity versus your racial identity, you know, da da da da da. And so, I think there's a lot of internal um going to talk. And so, I think all of that sets the stage for most people being inherently somewhat skeptical. So, for example, a lot of people are um you know, kind of anti big tech companies and big tech, you know, CEOs
4:25and creators. Anyway, and they're like, this is just another reason to be anti. And even when you say, well, wait a minute, this could create a medical assistant that could, you know, essentially create high-quality healthcare across, you know, the entire scope of the world, but also, you know, 340 million Americans, of which only something substantially less than 100 million have really good, high-quality healthcare.
4:52Um And even you could do that, say, well, no, but that doesn't matter cuz it matters cuz it'll be benefiting, you know, the tech companies and the and the owners of the tech companies more than it is us. And you're like, well, that's that's the wrong place to be. You should be thinking about what are the things that are that kind of uh raise the capabilities for everyone.
5:11And that's I think the reason why the since the other countries don't have these internal divisions, they're clear-headed about the fact that this is going to create the next generation of globally relevant prosperity that they want to be bought in. And so, for example, the most surprising part of these earning these findings is, you know, only 36% AI to mostly help their country. It's like, well, that's that's an obvious thing in terms of
5:39economic productivity. Like like like to say, hey, I worry about the reshuffle of power economics within the country is I think something to say how do how do we we navigate that. But the the creation of prosperity for the countries that adopt is actually in fact really straightforward. And that's the reason why you see the 93% uh in China. And I think, you know, there's a number of other factors that come into
6:07it. I think the Chinese government, you know, kind of understands just as they've been trying to raise their farm industry and the car industry and a bunch of other things. They understand this is an economic multiplier. It's part of the reason why a number of years ago they said they want to be the leader globally in AI by 2030. That's just around the corner in terms of what they're trying to target.
6:29And so I think, you know, for us that's part of the reason why, you know, I kind of as you know, a couple weeks ago came out you can kind of arguing for a dual mandate, which is we both need to win at AI because that will give us as a society the economic prosperity to do everything from trying to fund the fact that we are massively in debt. We're like a society that's maxed out all our credit cards and most of our taxes, you
6:58know, a huge percentage of our taxes are going to to to paying off the debt. And this gives us the growth to navigate that and create economics. And then the second is to use that, you know, you know, to get to earn the money by being, you know, first in AI, to then benefit the bulk of the country.
7:19To say how is it that, you know, the in building AI it isn't only going to be a beneficiary to one industry or to a small number of companies, but to all to to many of the industries, to many of the workers. And some of that you can do through creating assistance, medical assistant, legal assistant, educational assistant, government services. And some of it you do by supporting the industries. Like, you know, to close off this opening monologue, sorry for the length, is to
7:49say, "Look, you want a return to manufacturing as a strength in the US? AI and robotics is your only hope." And the question will be is how do we deploy our strengths in in AI?
8:03We're actually behind the Chinese on robotics. So, and increase robotics to return us to a manufacturing powerhouse, or at least in contention with China, Japan, Germany, etc. And I think that would be obviously very good for the middle class if we if we succeed in doing so.
8:22So, it's very clear that there is a lot of work to be done, both by the companies themselves, but also the American people on using AI to help make their own lives better, but also understanding how it can sort of keep the US as an economic powerhouse as we head into the future. I'd say one of the places where people are worried is jobs.
8:40And specifically, I see headlines like, AI is writing resumes and cover letters, uh, you know, thousands a day, and AI agents are rejecting thousands of people a day. Like, it adds to sort of both the nervousness, but also the dehumanization that people are feeling like, "I'm putting myself out there. I'm trying to get this job, but I, you know, I just have a robot on the other side, or I have a machine telling me no." And so, HackerRank is a technical hiring platform, and it's used by thousands of
9:08companies, and it's expanding its AI interviewer, Chakra. And so, this is actually an AI that is doing the interviewing. I think the interesting thing here, though, is what it tests. Candidates can work through practical problems with AI, and then they face questions about their choices, their reasoning, whether they checked the AI's work. This company had been known for straight coding assessments, but this signals like a broader change in how developers prove their ability.
9:34Employees increasingly need to assess how someone directs and evaluates AI.
9:39Like we've said so many times, in the future, or maybe the present, everyone is going to be a manager because you're going to be managing AI. And employers need to know how are their potential employees going to do that. And so, you and I both have told young people, including my children, that being AI native is going to be part of their opportunity. How do you think hiring should change so that employers can actually recognize that talent? But at the same time, we need to make sure we're not sort of dehumanizing the
10:09Well, I mean, the hiring experiences already somewhat less than ideal already. So, it's not, you know, this kind of perfection experience. And actually, there's various ways in which I hope that a that the ad the the the transformation of the hiring experience through AI will actually in fact elevate uh the various elements of humanity. Now, one of them is a project you and I worked together along with Byron Auguste and all the people at Opportunity at Work, which is this
10:38notion of, you know, tear the paper ceiling and the fact that, you know, just having a piece of cheap skin is not actually in fact the right credential.
10:45And so, it creates a differentiation and also an a an a um this dependency on going massively in a debt to going to some colleges in order to do it. Whereas actually in fact, you could just, you know, use the skills and capabilities. And I think one of the things that you get in an AI interviewer is currently the use of a human interviewer is very expensive off the things that they're doing. And so, they tend to go, "Well, let's let's just narrow the channel as much as possible. So, do you have a
11:13bachelor's Like, we're interviewing you to become a janitor. Do you have a bachelor's degree?"
11:18Right, you know, like, you know, kind of like, you know, in in in in the absurdity of it. But even on like, for example, you don't need a bachelor's degree to necessarily be a software developer. You don't need a bachelor's degree to necessarily, you know, be, you know, any number of other kind of white collar job. Sure, you should be certified if you're an accountant cuz you have to understand that kind of thing. But, you know, part of uh you know, kind of an AI interviewer is you go, "Well, so-and-so looks interesting. It's not that expensive to run a 2-hour AI
11:48interview process with them.
11:50And you could get a really interesting assessment. And what's more, you'll get a better assessment necessarily than than simply a oh, look a you know, does the chemistry, you know, feel right in a, you know, hour interview where you're you're kind of going through stuff cuz you could also do 4 hours with AI and you could have it do it in chunks and follow up and all the rest. So, I think there's a lot of things you could do there that enable a much broader range of talent that you can
12:18uh potentially find, you know, the kind of the uh the diamonds that are out there in the field, um not just in the rough. I think there's also, you know, kind of uh questions around AI where you know, like um I think that you will still have human interviewing, but I think that, you know, the the thing you'll do is say, "Okay, the AI will do a bunch of stuff on competence and capabilities and learning curves and other things." And then the human will
12:47assess, you know, kind of cultural fit, team fit, you know, other kinds of things and then cross-checking some of the stuff. And I think that will make a uh good experience. And then, of course, also, you know, um you know, one of the things that an AI can also then spend time doing is saying like like helping the candidate know whether or not this particular job or company culture or path is right for them.
13:17Cuz they could also spend time answering and selling um as a way of doing it cuz it's a better it's a batch. So, I actually think AI inclusion in the hiring process will broadly be much better. Now, I think people will kind of go, "Whoa, I'm I'm worried that the like before I was completely like could I [snorts] get an interview or an information interview and could I use, you know, a really clever cover letter or a college opportunity or a network
13:46connection to make those happen. And I worry about getting further away. I think those connections will still exist. So, I think those are there.
13:54But, I think that the question around as opposed to I just can't get anyone to respond to me, um you can now get some response and possibly some feedback. So, I I'm overall very bullish and not a surprise to you or the people who know Reading Super Agency, but when I think this becomes more common, um a little bit like when cars became more common, I think it'll elevate the capabilities all around the ecosystem
14:24both on the job seeker and on the hiring side and will make it more uh transparent, engaged, closer to the truth. Or or it's a wise so overall very positive.
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15:25I mean, we've talked about this before.
15:26There's already so much bias, discrimination, whatever built into the hiring process. To your point, do you have uh, you know, chemistry with the person you're interviewing? There's certain jobs that are much better suited for in-person interviews because those are the skills you need for the job, whereas others like those aren't the skills that you need for the job. So, how could this be the job? I mean, it was funny last week I was talking to someone who's sort of in the job search process and they had been on 20, you know, first-round interviews and they were kicking themselves because we were
15:54like, "Oh, wait, obviously you recorded them and asked AI for feedback after each interview." And she was like, "Ah, no." And so, to your point, like there are definitely ways that AI can help you do this. But on the other hand, I was talking to someone who said, "You know, forget AI. I would never hire someone that I hadn't seen face-to-face." Like it we do, you know, Zoom interviews or whatever for the first rounds, but before hiring them, like I I have to see them in person. I have to have that. Is there any job today, Reid, that you would say that AI can do it all? Like we
16:24don't need a human in the loop. Like these are the jobs that we can just hire with AI and we should be good to go. Maybe a really fast-scaling startup.
16:30Like is is there a world where that could happen now? Or like what would we need for it to be true in the future?
16:35Well, I don't think I mean, obviously these, you know, um, there's some already incredibly amazing capabilities with the AIs, which are very helpful and therefore an unabridged positive. I think there's a lot of context awareness and um, there's still a little bit of a, you know, kind of almost like, you know, as you know, one of my favorite expressions is in theory there is no difference in theory and practice.
17:04It's almost like an evocation of the theory. Like it's kind of like, um, what would I expect the hiring practices to be?
17:13You know, the kind of thing that a mid-level MBA course would have as kind of a checklist, which is not bad, but by no means what you really want to be doing. And I And I, you know, you're not just hiring for an individual and their capability most often, but for uh a kind of part of a team.
17:38And And so And, you know, part of interviewing is not just the cultural fit, but also it's kind of that set of agreements of, "Oh, yeah, we as a team think that this person is good, and we as a team want to see them be successful, and we as a team are buying into co-owning this process."
17:57And so it isn't just like, you know, when you have a company, as you know, you know, to something and all the other things you've done, is when you have a company, you you want the hiring process to be a team process.
18:09You don't just bring in Sarah or Bob and say, "Hey everybody, meet your new colleague."
18:15You know, it's like you know, even if you say, "Well, I really We really think Sarah or Bob will be really good, and, you know, we're we're cross-checking with you. We're not You don't need to do a full interview." Sometimes you do that, but you still do that. And so So, I don't think there's any place yet where you would hand it completely to the AI, except maybe, and this is a very limited case, say you're doing something kind of the equivalent of a project work, and you're hiring essentially a contractor for a particular task, Mhm.
18:43and it just literally all you want is the task output back, you might have AI hiring, deploying, integrating only with that. But as an ongoing team relationship, I don't think, you know, it may be never. Not Not just a question of AI capability, just on that these kind of principles of forming the cultures of teams.
19:05I love it. Human human in the loop perhaps forever. All right. So, we already touched on jobs, which is making people fear fearful. Uh now we're going to move to advertising and trust, which I think is another place where people uh have a lot of differing opinions. So, some people say that advertising is the greatest. It creates the greatest business models the world's ever seen. It allows many consumers to use something and not pay.
19:29Other people say, you know, this is why social media became so predatory because it wanted eyeballs and we could no longer trust it. And so, OpenAI announced it'll be in testing visual ads during ChatGPT image generation later this month. And they're going to be starting in the US with users on its free and go plans. And these ads, they say, are going to be clearly labeled labeled. It's going to be separate from the image being created. The advertising, they say, won't influence the chat ChatGPT's answers. Um and they
19:57also argue that this will make it more accessible.
20:01Obviously, a lot of people are worried that if you have this trusted AI assistant that you're asking important, you know, intimate questions that all of a sudden it has sort of a vested interest to give you different answers based on advertising interests. What do you think changes when the advertising platform is also this assistant that you're supposed to trust and use to make really important decisions in your life?
20:23So, a couple of things. One is I do think that there will be some paid non-advertising things. And if you have a particular worry about that, you'll be able to do that, whether it's from OpenAI or from others. Um and so, I think there's a range of choice that gets there.
20:41Um the second thing is, you know, I think one of the reasons why, you know, Google so far has created the best um you know, call it business model yet invented in human history or at least the best media and so forth is the part of what it did with AdWords was it said, this is where this is the advertising thing and this is the non-advertising thing.
21:04Right? And so, and then made the advertising thing quality enough that people would also treat it most often as a as an alternative class of search result. Like I actually know people who on certain kinds of searches specifically do the search and then look at AdWords thinking that this is the I'm looking for a commercial answer to this particular query and the the the intersection of the dollars and the click-through ads and it actually makes that a good search result.
21:33So, I think that the key principle here will be to keep that like this is advertising, this is not advertising and that it's not the not advertising isn't being influenced the way that you see in other things. Like for example, you know, when you're searching for stuff on Amazon and you see it's sponsored, then surprisingly that sponsored is also very high in the search results. And so, you wonder what the the blend is. You have
21:59to keep them, you know, quite distinct uh in terms of in terms of how this is playing.
22:07And then the third, I think, is not just the kind of the transparency, which is the second point, but also kind of making a kind of contractually binding commitment that you could be held accountable to. Like um you know, for example, you know, the search quality team at Google is completely distinct and says, "We don't have anything like like that ad space and everything else. We
22:35don't look at that at all in how we're making our search results." And I think you need to have some kind of commitment like that within it. Because when you hold those things, exactly what OpenAI and this part of the reason why like people pref- strongly prefer to have a free search with Google and Bing and then navigate the ads because they like the free opens it up to lots more people.
23:02Uh by the universality, it also creates a like it's just kind of like um you know, these kind of technology projects are best with a massive volume. So, as opposed to all the nuances, and this is you know, like in a separate context they made this argument of you know, your uh you know, uh the CEO of Apple and the Uber driver have the same iPhone, broadly. Right?
23:27Because it's kind of like it's it's made for a broad mass market audience. And sure, maybe the Uber driver's got the $800 version and the CEO has the $1,600 version, but they're largely the same thing.
23:40And so, I think that the that's one of the things about having a very universal product, and it's one of the reasons why having a free AI product with with advertising as the economic model creates that universality that's that's very important. But, of course, you need to keep to these principles of integrity, which is the reason why I started there.
24:02And how do you think like how how do you get consumers to trust that? And or like who should be the governing body? I mean, I want to know if I'm like, "Hey, you know, everything you know about my son. What is, you know, the best college for him?" And then, you know, I find out that Middlebury is, you know, paying ChatGPT however much a month for advertising. Like, how do we get the consumer trust? Is it just reps over time? Just the more I use ChatGPT or Claude or whomever, I'm more excited about it? Is it that again the government has weighed in? Like, how do
24:31we create this ecosystem? Because I think that again, the dream is I mean, I will say, I saw this fantastic tweet yesterday that said that so far agents uh this is a little uncouth. Um agents are so far being people's husbands. They do discrete tasks that are fine, but we really need someone to be a wife. We need an agent who thinks of the whole picture, who knows everything about me, who can plan my whole calendar. And so, in order for these agents to really be people's wives, which is what I'm
25:01looking for, they need to know so much information. Like, how do we bridge that trust gap? Because, as we talked about earlier, like the trust isn't there right now in the US.
25:10By the way, I don't think it's uncouth it's saying that wives have a higher [laughter] have a higher trust dependency than husbands, and I think that's a Yeah, they just do more. They're better. I'm just saying wives are better, but yes, continue.
25:23So, um and I think that Look, the way I would start is I'd say companies should make assertions that they are held accountable to about how they operate.
25:35You know, everything from press to necess- necessity government inquiry can see if they are actually, in fact, holding themselves accountable to those assertions.
25:47If the assertions are too weak, then you put pressure on them first out of by customers, selecting other things, by press, by you know, critique, possibly by government inquiry. And if that doesn't work, then you start stepping up regulation to say you have to do you have to you have to do the following things.
26:07And as you know, if I was stepping up regulation, the way I would set up step it up, and it's something I've been very positive on for AI for a while is is how do you have essentially auditing of it by third-party entities Yes.
26:20where that auditing is then available to government scrutiny, is then available to challenge and and to, you know, verification that's working. Because when you have a third party, it's the same reason we have financial auditors, when you have a third party who's not who doesn't have an incentive to lie here because, you know, this is their business, then you have a much higher level of reliability and truth.
26:45Reed, makes so much sense. Thanks so much for being here today. I appreciate it.
26:50Possible is produced by Pilot Media. It's hosted by Ari finger and me, Reed Hoffman. Our show runner is Sean Young. Possible is produced by Tanasi Dilak, Katie Sanders, Spencer Strassmore, Emo Zoo, Aman Suri, Danny Garrison, Trent Barbosa, and Tafadzwa Nemarundwe.
27:07Special thanks to Surya Yalamanchili, Saida Sabieva, Ian Ellis, Greg Biato, Parth Patel, and Ben Rallis.
