0:08Uh you know, last year at this exact conference when I had just landed in Singapore, I think Zcash was around 50 to 60 dollars. And uh I just posted a tweet about it and then Naval obviously quote-tweeted saying uh Zcash Bitcoin is insurance against fiat and Zcash is insurance against Bitcoin. Pretty spicy. And then that's kind of when this whole run started. And now we're back again in Singapore, so no pressure.
0:37Um let's start pretty simple. So, Balaji, you recently said and I quote it's Zcash or communism.
0:49Absolutely. So, um okay, communism was both surveillance and seizure. And those actually went hand in hand.
0:59Which is to say, in the 20th century, the way that Lenin and the Bolsheviks could go and seize the farms, seize the land, is they had a list of all the farmers, the wealthy men, the guys who had two cows, the kulaks, and so on. So, they could send their guys house to house, and obviously later the communists also, you know, wiretapped everybody, the KGB, and so on and so forth. And today, what is that? That's like the total police state. That's like surveilling everything with AI.
1:24And the if AI is this Panopticon, this you know, eye of Sauron, well, you have this Zcash shield that gives zero knowledge, right? Cuz AI can synthesize even the tiniest leak of information and put it all together into a picture that no one's ever had before. But Zcash is the shield that actually restores privacy underneath that cuz it is itself zero knowledge about financial transactions, but it's also helped
1:53bootstrap the entire zero knowledge space. Um and so, like everything digital eventually gets protected by zero knowledge. So, that's why it's Zcash or communism.
2:04And Tyler, Cameron, uh, one thing people might not know about you guys is that Gemini was actually the first exchange to have listed Zcash back in the day. And you guys also listed, uh, or the first US-based. And you guys also supported shielded Zcash. That was a long time ago. You guys Everybody here has been very early, but you guys were particularly early.
2:27What did you sort of see back then, and how has the thesis evolved until today?
2:34So, we see Zcash as encrypted Bitcoin.
2:38Um, just like the early web was HTTP. Uh, Zcash is HTTPS. So, it's encrypted Bitcoin, private Bitcoin. So, the gold Bitcoin thesis holds with Zcash. Zcash is a fork of Bitcoin, so the supply is fixed at 21 million. It's just secure and encrypted. And we're in an era where AI is eating away at privacy, so privacy's important and Zcash ensures that.
3:11Yeah. And we we listed, uh, Zcash on Gemini in 2018. And back then, it was the same narrative as it is today. It was privacy, but the [clears throat] advances in AI hadn't happened yet. Those breakthroughs came years later. But even in 2018, we understood the importance of financial privacy and how open the Bitcoin blockchain actually is.
3:34And so, let's maybe double click on that because some people think of uh, Zcash and Bitcoin as complements. Some people think of them as hedges. Some people think So, you you choose your adjective.
3:47Balaji, how do you think Bitcoin and Zcash Do they coexist? Can they coexist?
3:54Yeah, actually I've got a post coming on this, but um Bitcoin's transparency is actually a feature in a certain sense, which is um you know, when President Bukele of El Salvador posted a Bitcoin address, uh anybody can verify how much BTC is at that address.
4:11By contrast, if somebody today was to post a video of how much gold there was in Fort Knox, because of AI, you wouldn't necessarily believe that there was that much gold in Fort Knox. And so, we've actually hit a flipening in a post-AI, post-crypto era, where digital gold is much more easy to remotely verify without trust than than physical gold. So, in the West, where trust is collapsing, especially in the state, um
4:41I believe that Bitcoin becomes the reserve currency of Western institutions in the post-fiat, post-AI, post-crypto era. Um but Zcash is the currency of Western individuals, which is to say it's the thing that people actually zip around and use to avoid surveillance.
4:59You know, with with Western institutions, they need to prove their solvency to many people, but a Western individual doesn't need to do that. And that's a fundamental difference where, you know, crypto and the internet in general takes things to extremes. So, Bitcoin is now completely public and totally trackable, and Zcash is the opposite of completely, you know, private and untraceable, at least on in the shielded pool.
5:23And and private money is has been the norm for thousands of years. It wasn't until money became electronic, maybe 30, 40 years ago, that it became so uh transparent. Um and so, we're kind of going back to what uh money has always been, which is private.
5:41Um and cash has privacy, but it's not sound money, because it's money of the state. Um Bitcoin is sound money because it's decentralized and it's not money of the state, but it doesn't have privacy, so Zcash is completing the arc the the arc of that story where it [snorts] is it's private and it's sound money because it's not money of the state. So, it's this natural evolution and when I think about uh
6:11money, I think of it as a technology that has been evolving for let's say 10,000 years. Shells, precious metal, paper backed by metal, um crypto, Bitcoin, and now it's Zcash. So, it feels very inevitable.
6:27Right. So, cash is centralized uh but private. Bitcoin decentralized public.
6:33Zcash decentralized private.
6:37Well said. I'm stealing that one.
6:40Um Well, actually uh while while the mic's on you guys, you released you announced a an ETF filing for Zcash. Now, you also have uh Cypher Cypherpunk, which is the treasury company. So, why don't you sort of tell us about how those two fit together, what's the intended outcome?
7:02Sure. So, we announced today that we filed or we we filed uh today um for a Zcash ETF. So, 13 years ago, we did the same thing for a Bitcoin ETF. The price of Bitcoin So, this 2013, the price of Bitcoin was $100. Uh 13 years later, this is the sequel and we filed for the Winklevoss Zcash ETF.
7:26Um And so, we're excited about that and just to give people access to this asset class who may want to buy Zcash in a brokerage account because they can't hold Zcash the underlying asset and they want exposure to privacy, which is an asset, and it's a declining asset, um and it's a very precious asset in this day and age. And so, Zcash is our ETF vehicle to allow you to buy exposure to Zcash uh [snorts]
7:56in a brokerage. And then, Cypherpunk, or Scythe, is our digital privacy technology company. So, we own a lot of Zcash. Uh we own 2% of Zcash. We're also the largest Zcash miners in the world. Um and so, we're uh Cypherpunk, or Scythe, is the ticker. It owns Zcash. It mines Zcash. But, ultimately, we want to promote and
8:21foster uh privacy technologies and the values of the Cypherpunk Manifesto values and ethos.
8:32Actually, so maybe diving a little deeper on that. I'm not an expert on this. I just tweet things, but you guys actually uh work with institutions and actually even governments, Balaji. Uh and so, how do they think, or how do you think it'll play out, this intersection of sort of privacy, but with the regulatory landscape? Like, how do those things play together?
8:54So, that's a good question. I mean, um so, you mentioned earlier uh Tyler Cameron mentioned um so, you know, in 20 uh 2018, we listed Zcash at Coinbase. And actually, I I I think I had blog post like uh the HTTPS HTTP analogy, which we had talked about also. And I actually think that's a very important um precedent, because in the '90s, um there's something called the encryption wars. And really, arguably, we're in like the third or the fourth
9:22encryption wars, the crypto wars. And in the '90s, basically, crypto, or cryptography, rather, was considered a munition, like a weapon, by the US government, because um it was like, you know, let's say it was classified, or what have you. It wasn't so You weren't supposed to have Everybody wasn't supposed to have access to strong cryptography. So, there was a huge back and forth on that. And eventually the cryptographers won. And HTTPS was legal.
9:49And then by the early 2010s you had a site called https .cio.gov which actually said that every government website has to use HTTPS, okay? Which and basically every website does nowadays. So, the point is that in about 13 years it went from banned to mandatory.
10:12So, wait, you mean the government got that wrong?
10:15Yes, exactly. So, the government just completely flipped on that, right?
10:20Yeah, and whenever anything is like that where it goes from like banned to to mandatory or law of the land like when something has to be banned that actually usually means there's a lot of pressure for it, right? So, trying to keep it in a box, right? That doesn't necessarily mean it's good. It just means there's a lot of demand for it, right? So, trying to keep it in a box and if it bursts out of the box it can often flip the whole society like this, right? And there's certain things that are almost like binary switches at the top of a program.
10:48You know, like light mode, dark mode will change the entire like sense of a site, for example, right? Is cryptography legal or not changes the entire you know, like or like are our firearms legal or not? Is is speech free or not? These kind of those things but they're not always necessarily good if you could have you know, tons of firearms could can be bad in some ways. But point is those are very important switches at the top that that that change things. So, we got cryptography legal.
11:15And my view is like truly private money is you know, what's funny is it's a back-end technology. So, it's not as visible in some ways as AI, right? Um cuz AI is It's a I mean AI is also a back-end technology, but it's also front-end technology to see crazy visuals on your screen, right? The just the truly private money at scale, arbitrary amounts, teleporting it anywhere breaks many assumptions of that
11:44that, you know, like 20th century states have. Um and so so I think that on the other hand, it's also going to be necessary for individuals to protect their privacy. So, there'll be an enormous demand for it. And net net where I think things land up on the other side is it is legal and governments actually move to a Dropbox or Google-style model. Should I explain that the subscription state? Okay. All right, so just to digress a little bit.
12:11Um basically, if you think about how Dropbox, Google, a lot of these companies work, they collect more than most governments do in quote tax revenue via subscription globally.
12:24Right? That's to say, they should have a subscription and you pay that subscription and if you don't pay, then your digital services are shut off. And if you pay, then it comes back on, right? And Google and others make enormous amounts of money this way and they don't have a single tax collector around the world. They don't have to audit anybody. They just literally you just pay whatever dollars per month, right? That is where things will ultimately go in my view. You're going to have the subscription state where every country you just pay like
12:532,000, 3,000, whatever whatever amount of money flat fee per month and that's just your fee, right? And they don't have to go and get everything else. They just get a flat fee. That is ultimately where I think things land up by 2040-ish or thereabouts. There'll be a lot of churn between now and then.
13:13In terms of let's say the general question to reiterate, how does how do you foresee privacy and private money specifically contrasting with certain governments all over the world and regulatory overreach and especially in a world where AOC is president.
13:33Hopefully they never see the light.
13:36[laughter] It's a nightmare. Um so I see privacy as the boundary where government stops and your freedom and self-sovereignty begins. So it's this really important boundary. Um we have this enshrined with the Fourth Amendment. Um to some extent the Second Amendment. And uh encryption is is a peaceful uh non-violent Second Amendment that protects you and your space and
14:04your privacy and curbs the encroachment of government. Government tends to go just one way, like more surveillance, uh more trampling on your rights, more coercion, more violence. And so um this is a mathematical way to to to stop that and to stifle that and really uphold the the American values and ethos in our Constitution. So privacy is a human right.
14:36Yeah, and I think some people will definitely fight it, but I think ultimately that that right will hopefully win out.
14:44And so I'm sure a lot of people in the audience, you know, maybe they've heard of Zcash, but I would say relatively speaking it's this super old coin that's actually new again and maybe uh there's sort of a renaissance behind it. So what exactly changed? Right, is it AI? Is it quantum scares? Is it the fact that ZK technology now scales or some other combination?
15:08It's a few things. Um first is like the technology did work 10 years ago, but it took a while for the proofs to work on mobile, for example, um you know, to get rid of certain like the setup ceremony, certain kinds of things. The cryptography had to evolve, number one.
15:25Um number two is uh I think you know, there were like the usability of it had to evolve like, you know, the the everything had to work on mobile. Apple had to make that easier for things to work. It had to get listed privacy like a lot of crypto regulations had to move forward and so on. Um the there were there were a lot of things that were both technical and social and geopolitical even.
15:49And uh and now I think it's hit its moment. Um also, there's like talent had to come into this ecosystem and so on and so forth. Zcash had an interesting I shouldn't say failure mode cuz now it succeeded. But, you know, most crypto projects if they fail, they fail because they go too capitalist, they market it too hard and you know, it it just does the the Burj Khalifa formation, you know, like bing bing like this, right?
16:15Um like the the the the pump fun kind of thing, right? And uh Zcash for a long time had the opposite problem of being too PhD, right? Too .edu which I see often in biotech, right? Where it was not like most things in crypto it's because they're too commercial. Zcash almost wasn't commercial enough in some ways. It didn't have the, you know, like it was so pure, right? But, that's good because it actually works.
16:42Um and so people were in it for a long time for more than money. And so now it is, you know, very good money.
16:49That I think also we had to get Bitcoin work working. Uh it was a proof of concept in a way. Um and Satoshi talks about privacy and ZK proofs, but he just didn't quite know how to implement it into Bitcoin. But, a lot of this technology or cryptography that underpins Zcash is uh predates Bitcoin. So, um the the technology got there, the got there, AI got there, quantum's getting there.
17:21Um so it's all sort of conspiring to make uh this Zcash's moment in time. I don't think it would have happened years ago. It's Right. Today is is a now.
17:32Perhaps we should do a show of hands.
17:34How many people in the audience own Zcash?
17:39Well, that's not very private.
17:41Uh [laughter] But that's about the same numbers as Bitcoin 2013 when we keynoted that conference in San Jose for Bitcoin. And I think Zcash is starting to pick up steam, but it's still very early and to use the words of the late great Yogi Berra, it's deja vu all over again with Zcash.
18:01And so if you had a time machine and you go back to 2013, how would you think differently and how would you operate?
18:09Um and I think most people would say I would have bought more Bitcoin and I would have bought earlier. And you now sort of have that chance with Zcash. It has all of the properties of Bitcoin and it solved this very very important privacy problem.
18:26Man, you guys are very good at talking about it. I'm jealous. Um Well, let me ask you uh let's maybe fast forward. Let's say, you know, our efforts and everybody's efforts in the ecosystem uh going from Zotl to Visor wallet and all these other things, they work. What what's what do you hope for it to look like in let's say 10 years, right? Or let's maybe assume the year's 2049 just just for our sake.
18:512049. Well, 2049's I mean, that's what 23 years from now? 23 years from now, 23 years ago, I I think Facebook's in its first year, Twitter didn't exist, and so on and so forth. Like Gmail didn't exist yet. 23 years is a long time, but um in the future, well, you know, ZK uh will be there for everything. So, a few things. You're going to see ZKYC.
19:15So, the entire This is a big thing, by the way. The entire premise behind KYC is, "Oh, the government is protecting you from some criminals or something.
19:24Therefore, upload all your passport and other stuff." But, almost certainly today the cost-benefit of uploading that stuff and creating this honeypot with millions and millions of, you know, passports and so on. In the age of AI, that's just guaranteed to eventually get hacked at some point, right? And, uh, which we saw with, you know, like various companies had their stuff. And the Pentagon's hacked over and over again. And those are the hacks that people only know about, right? So, the entire KYC model that's ostensibly meant
19:52to protect is actually endangering, right? And in general, no government should be able to force a collection of something they can't secure. If they're collecting things that are hacked on the back end, they're causing home invasions, they're causing identity thefts deterministically because there's a probability they're going to get hacked, right? So, now instead, if they have some legitimate public service thing, you do ZKYC.
20:21Example, you've got your passport, it's got a chip in it. It can prove that you're not North Korean or whatever, right? That you're one of X different nationalities that are allowed to use the service. And you can have the NFC reader in your phone interact with it and issue a ZK proof to the server, right? And that's actually going to be necessary for everything because AI makes it possible to fake scans and screenshots. So, everything will be like your passport that has a chip in it. It
20:50will need to be like that because the digital will be able to do a handshake and authenticate, and the physical will be able to be faked. So, then that means that due to AI and due to uh, you know, due to AI, everything that's not a chip is fake. With ZK, you can upload only the zero-knowledge proof, right? And so, we need a a a smart country, a far-sided country to start with this, whether it's Estonia, Kazakhstan, maybe Singapore, El
21:19Salvador, UAE, a place like that to start with ZKYC and eliminate the honey pots. And then there'll be something like https.cio.gov, where it becomes mandatory to limit the honey pots because otherwise you will, you know, be collecting the data that you can't secure.
21:36Yeah, I I can't see that future with KYC continuing cuz it it just empowers the bad actors cuz eventually some vendor with some database of your information gets popped. And then the bad guys know where you live, they know your balance, and they attack you, kidnap you, cut off your fingers, and this is happening right now all over Europe.
22:00In France in particular.
22:03Um so, That's why Singapore's a good place.
22:06You can come to crypto conferences in Singapore and Dubai are good.
22:10That's where the the thieves are scared, but So, using zero knowledge to authenticate yourself without handing over all your information Right.
22:20Know your customer is becoming kill your customer. That's a sad reality.
22:25Yeah. Actually, you know, we should make some AI videos on that. Like showing these crazy or you know, maybe I can make the AI videos on this, right? Like we have to show the the impact of these crazy regulations because the impact is distal. You know, when when when a hack happens, this is one of the issues is we're starting to finally get the right sensors, you know, like Apple will tell you like, oh, this password looks like it was compromised or something like that, right? Because it's in it's, you know, have I been pwned? It interacts
22:53with those databases. But often what happens with a hack is you don't like feel anything. It's not like your phone vibrates or like there's a pain sensor, what happens is it's used like by somebody else like years down the line.
23:08And the worst is for these poor people, for example, who um they have their addresses hacked, they can't move. That's like a huge pain because then, you know, right?
23:19Um which is why, you know, in general, you you can use remailer services. You know what those are?
23:26Remailers, physical remailers.
23:28Oh, like a mail forwarding from Yeah, like a mail forwarding service. For certain kinds of things, you can send to those it's like a it's like a a proxy or VPN, but for physical packages, right? Just you know, whatever. Nice little pro tip. Yeah.
23:43Um also um using crypto to authenticate AI and who you're talking to. Um it's getting so good that uh you don't know who's on the other side of a Zoom, let's say. But if it's uh cryptographically authenticated or proven, then crypto authenticates AI. So, these two technologies go hand in hand.
24:09By the way, on that topic, laptops are better hardware wallets than most hardware wallets.
24:16Well, because first, the interface is familiar because you're using it every day, whereas the hardware wallet is only used from time to time. Second, a hardware wallet communicates to somebody has crypto, but a laptop doesn't, right?
24:29So, it's like security through obscurity in this way. There's like a thousand next as many laptops without crypto as with crypto, so you can people can take it through airport security or whatever, and no one notices versus a hardware wallet instantly says there's crypto there. Third is they're more robust cuz they're made at billion-person scale, so they don't like have some weird LED issue or lose batteries or something like that.
24:50Fourth is you've got a full command line on them, so you can actually, if you need to, boot something up. Oh, the wallet software's out of date or something, no problem. So, for a lot of reasons, anyway, digression, but that's that's an important thought.
25:01So, here's a thought experiment of why privacy is important. Um would Bitcoin have been launched if Satoshi had to reveal his identity?
25:13Maybe not. It's a It's a very dangerous idea. He may have been hunted by governments. And so, we may never seen that innovation without privacy. Now, um can he spend his Bitcoin? He can't because it's not private. So, there's two reasons why privacy is super important. We may never have seen the invention of Bitcoin and the inventor of Bitcoin himself can't use his Bitcoin because the movement is not private.
25:45Well, actually on this topic, it took me a long time to articulate this, but Satoshi's anonymity was actually another form of decentralization in the following way.
25:55Like, if you think of uh whatever his official name was, that was his state secure his social security name, right? Which is actually something where given that name, you can look it up in a centralized database and pull all this metadata. Here's a driver's license, here's your address, here's all this other stuff, blah blah blah, right?
26:15Whereas a decentralized name, Satoshi Nakamoto, is not linked to the centralized database with 20 other records off of it. It just sits by itself over here, right? It's decentralized. So, what he did is he made it hard for people to play the man or the ball. Right? They couldn't really attack him because they could only attack this name. They couldn't attack anything the name was connected to. Um like his family, his loved ones, his address, etc.
26:44And uh they also the the uh Bitcoin network itself, of course, was decentralized, right? And so, this way they couldn't do the journos didn't have it it was like like stealth, you know, like with stealth where it defeats at least I mean now modern imaging is changing this, but in theory you don't get a radar lock on it, right? You don't have radar lock, you can't fire missiles, right? So the journos didn't have a name for Satoshi, right? They had
27:13no radar lock, right? So the missiles just flew this like this they couldn't they could they had no radar lock, nothing, right?
27:20So there's a great science fiction book uh about this called True Names by what's it called?
27:26By Vernor Vinge, yeah.
27:28Vernor Vinge and you have your real name but also your NIM or your alias and that's how you uh go online and if the government discovers the connection between your NIM and your real name, they'll go to your house and kill you.
27:44And so this is really important.
27:47It's you know, the thing about this is I I think if you want a 2049 prediction like doxing will sort of become like a capital crime kind of because exactly the name to real name because real name gives you address and then they can send in the drones and just hit a button boom, right? And you know, so the like I'm just in a territory which is an adversarial territory, right? Um When AOC is president
28:16Yeah, yeah, exactly. Is ZEC or AOC, right? That's the you know, it's like the the the good versus well, take all of your money in and money first thing.
28:26But um Anyway, so um the uh respect to I gosh, what are you you saying something else about the tracking True Names?
28:37True Names, yeah. The the NIM versus your government name and how if your government name is connected to your NIM So so on this topic like one thing is I think your your English name, your your like your real name but your state name simultaneously gives both too much information and too little. Why does it give too little information? Well, if I say, "Okay, your name is Mert or you know, like okay, I have to say, what's your email?
29:05What's your PayPal? What's your this?
29:06What's your that?" I have to ask for all these other strings in order to send other things.
29:11If you haven't said something like an ENS name or an SNS name like a Ethereum name service or Solana name service name, now in theory I can send you an encrypted message, I can send you a payment, I can even upload a file to you, I can download files from you and so on and so forth. So, it actually subsumes many other of these strings in one string.
29:30On the other hand, a real name it also gives you too much information because people can link it to 500 different databases, they can find all kinds of properties on you and so on. Whereas, if you have a pseudonym, which is, you know, want you know, foobar99.eth or whatever, then that pseudonym has nothing else linked or satoshinakamoto.eth, it has nothing else linked to it. So, there aren't 500 other databases it's connected to. So, you're giving away
30:00what you intend to give away and no more than that, right? And I think then the next step will eventually be something like ZNS, which has all of those good properties but then has various levels of selective revelation with viewing keys. That's another important point by the way is that like right now we have completely private or completely public, but you may want to have with viewing keys different like onion layers. Like, okay, your your accountant can see it or
30:28okay, this friendly government can see it or you know, something along those lines.
30:34Yeah, that is a lot of stuff there. Wow. Um Okay. Um ZNS, good idea. Um Well, honestly, I don't even remember what I was going to say at this point. Um Oh, actually like one of my favorite use cases that we were talking about now that we're talking about Satoshi is that Roman Storm who Oh, yeah.
30:55Free Roman Storm and he if you look at his donations on on his donation website, the majority are in Zcash and that's a perfect use case of private money, which is politically sensitive kind of donations to people who are fighting against the actual criminals who are the ones banning open source code, right? And so that's a particularly favorite use case of mine.
31:17Um the AI thing is also very interesting in terms you should describe the Roman Storm case for anybody who doesn't know what the case is.
31:25Well, okay. So Roman Storm is one of the co-authors of Tornado Cash, which is a zero-knowledge cash on on Ethereum and his European developer was like or co-founder or something was arrested in Europe and and he was I think he's believed his US citizen and he was arrested in America and just for the crime of writing software and literally this is like a precedent-setting thing of arresting someone for writing privacy software.
31:53And like the weird thing about it is it's still not dismissed 2 years into the new administration, whereas other kinds of things have been dismissed and so he is still like awaiting trial or something like that. So so he's somebody who, you know, his case should be should in my view and many others, Vitalik, many others have posted on Roman Storm's case is a political prisoner basically.
32:14Mhm, yeah. Yeah. It is fascinating that you can, you know, Burj Khalifa shitcoin, but writing privacy code is sort of the the crime here. Okay, we have about a minute and 30 left. Maybe let's talk about something that you can just put on Twitter. What is the most common misconception about Zcash in your mind.
32:41I just don't think people have heard of it.
32:46Yeah, I think the current market cap of Zcash is about 25 billion. So, it's still I think 2% the size of Bitcoin. So, it's still very early even though those who sit on X all day, we we know a lot about Zcash, but I think a lot of people actually still haven't really heard about it or just hearing about it, but uh you're doing a great job, Mert. Getting getting the word out there.
33:11Yeah, it feel it feels like Bitcoin 2013. Um Balaji was one of the first people we met in Bitcoin 2013. So, if you could take a time machine back and be on the ground floor of Bitcoin, that's what Zcash is like. Not a lot of people know about it, heard about it, or own it.
33:32It's actually it it's funny. Basically, but you and I made big bets on the same things at the same time. We're doing that again, which is pretty good.
33:42Yeah. It's like Oh, you know, band's back together.
33:45Yeah, band's back together. Exactly. You know, you asked what I think the biggest misconception about Zcash perhaps is um people are like, "Oh, it's an it's another flash in the pan. It's another thing hyped in the cycle." It's You know that saying like an overnight success 10 years in the making?
34:02That's really what Zcash is.
34:05You know, it's 10 years of grinding that's now going vertical.
34:10Right. If you prorate the gains over the last year over the last 10 years since inception, it actually has been growing at a pretty moderate rate.
34:20Yeah, but maybe maybe it won't be so moderate in the years to come. We'll see.
34:26All right. Cool. Well, let's end it there. Thank you so much everybody for listening and Trillions. Okay.
